Pathfinderizing the ToB?

[rollforeigninit]

If this needs to be in homebrew, I apologize.

So I've been kicking around designs in my head & on paper for a couple years now based on the Classes in the ToB. Basically, I was thinking that i'd like to do for those 3 (excellent) classes what Pathfinder did for the base classes. I know it'd be in no way official but I think it'd be kinda cool. The main reason I was wanting to proceed was that the way the 3 classes are presented it kinda shoehorns ya into certain builds. I was thinking that making them more customizable might be a way to go. Barbarians have rage powers, rogues & ninjas have talents, Magus has arcana, & ALL the classes have archetypes out the wazoo. I'd like to give the base classes a little more sketchy & gave them power over which disciplines they have access to. Class abilities can come off a list kinda like the abilities of the aforementioned classes. From there, we just need to figure out which abilities need not appear on those lists & instead become part of the base chassis. Finally I'd like a better lvl 20 capstone ability. Any ideas for abilities would be great. Just let me know which class(es) it'd work for. I have my own ideas which I will post in the next day or so. I'd like to include some of the homebrew disciplines & feats & the like I've seen as well.

I'm a little concerned about how much of what I can print on the forums so I'd like advice as to that as well.

I'm aware that this may have been tried before but I couldn't find anything that I really fell in love with. Bear with me please.

[Righteous Doggy]

TOB I always thought of as closer to PF classes than most of the other base classes. They have more class features(almost no dead levels), they have static growth, they even have a capstone(though not nearly as gamechanging as the pf capstones). I'm sure with a bit of work you can do it, but... I'll have to wait until I see anything before I comment on what you had in mind.
I'd also like to point out a character is only as pigeonholed into an archetype as you make it. I've never thought of any classes as a single role. None of them have alignment restrictions, nor do they demand a specific type of person. Just that they study/meditate/practice a bit of cool martial skills.

[AslanCross]

TOB I always thought of as closer to PF classes than most of the other base classes. They have more class features(almost no dead levels), they have static growth, they even have a capstone(though not nearly as gamechanging as the pf capstones).

This. I'm not sure they don't need any changes, really; all I did with them was redo their class skills. You're also going to have to rethink how to do the Diamond Mind concentration checks; I went ahead with Initiator Level + Key ability modifier (Wis for Swordsage, Int for Warblade, Cha for Crusader in the event of Martial Study) +3 (Class skill bonus).

As for choosing disciplines, I'd probably give Crusader more flexibility: Devoted Spirit should be Crusader only by default (it's broad enough in application to work for any ethos), then either White Raven or Stone Dragon, then one other (depending on your character's deity or philosophy). No reason why a crusader of a fire deity shouldn't have Desert Wind, or a crusader of a war god shouldn't have Iron Heart.

Swordsage already gets almost everything, so keep it that way; but Desert Wind for Swordsages could probably have other energy type options.

Warblade, being the most mundane and I think the most stable of the Martial Adept classes, should largely remain the same. They have the most diverse set of class features and are the easiest to play.

[JadePhoenix]

This. I'm not sure they don't need any changes, really; all I did with them was redo their class skills. You're also going to have to rethink how to do the Diamond Mind concentration checks; I went ahead with Initiator Level + Key ability modifier (Wis for Swordsage, Int for Warblade, Cha for Crusader in the event of Martial Study) +3 (Class skill bonus).
I use Autohypnosis for Diamond Mind.

[AslanCross]

I use Autohypnosis for Diamond Mind.

That also works. I hadn't noticed that Autohypnosis was printed in Psionics Unleashed.

[rollforeigninit]

Also wondering if the other discipline associated skills need reevaluation. Acrobatics has a few too many skills I think now that it's been consolidated in PF.
Here's what I'm thinking as far as skill/discipline.

Desert Wind- Survival (Nature Connectedness & all.) (I really like the idea about maybe having Different elements included)

Devoted Spirit- Intimidate

Diamond Mind- Perception (Seems to fit better than Autohyp when ya look at the maneuvers)

Iron Heart- Autohypnosis (Looking at the maneuvers in IH I think it fits better here)

Setting Sun- Sense Motive

Shadow Hand- Stealth

Stone Dragon- Climb? (I know the original ToB didn't hold to 1 school/discipline but I kinda want to try it. Climb kinda has an earth-based feel I don't hate.)

Tiger Claw- Acrobatics (Might as well give it to the school that requires the checks.)

White Raven- Diplomancy

I was kinda thinking of buffing Blade Meditation (the feat) to double the Skill bonus like with Skill Focus & the other Skill related feats when the character reaches 10 skill ranks. Maybe boost the other effects too but I'll have to mull that one over some. Having 1 skill/discipline would help make that easier to balance.

[Righteous Doggy]

Devouted spirit as intimidate makes them look like bullies, while white raven looks almost saintlike becuase of that(even though its the more savage one imo) and Stone Dragon is balance, its the art of having a ground to stand on, climbing is in the air! and did you know perception stats weren't in class for TOB classes? I don't have issues with the other ones. Wierd how simplifying things made things more difficult on you.

[AslanCross]

If you're going to refluff Desert Wind as a more elemental thing, then why not Knowledge (The Planes)?

Devoted Spirit: Why not Knowledge (Religion)? They have it as a class skill, and it kind of fits to be quoting passages of scripture while your crusader layeth the smackdowne upon his foes.

Stone Dragon: If it's about gaining the Earth's strength, then probably Knowledge (Nature)?

[rollforeigninit]

Devouted spirit as intimidate makes them look like bullies, while white raven looks almost saintlike becuase of that(even though its the more savage one imo) and Stone Dragon is balance, its the art of having a ground to stand on, climbing is in the air! and did you know perception stats weren't in class for TOB classes? I don't have issues with the other ones. Wierd how simplifying things made things more difficult on you.

Just FYI... Devoted Spirit's official key skill IS Intimidate. White Raven's IS Diplomancy. In Pf, Balance does not exist, it got rolled into Tumble along with Jump. I think giving Acrobatics (the consolidated skill) Desert Wind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon & Tiger Claw is a bit much. As far as Perception goes, Barbarian in 3.x got Listen but not Spot. However in PF, it gets Perception. So, apparently, I'm just following precedent. I never said I was simplifying anything.

[rollforeigninit]

If you're going to refluff Desert Wind as a more elemental thing, then why not Knowledge (The Planes)?

Devoted Spirit: Why not Knowledge (Religion)? They have it as a class skill, and it kind of fits to be quoting passages of scripture while your crusader layeth the smackdowne upon his foes.

Stone Dragon: If it's about gaining the Earth's strength, then probably Knowledge (Nature)?

Those were actually my second option. I was considering floating them tonight. :smallredface:. I'm interested in opinions as to what people think as to which fits better.

[Righteous Doggy]

@Roll I was talking about pf being simplified and making it diffucult on you XD. Just because its raw doesn't mean I agree :P. Its not like you have to use the checks for most of these skills anyway, so i'd say go ahead and use the knowledge checks. They're also more open ended in character design, dontcha' think?

[Darth Stabber]

I am away from my books at the moment, but I think warblade's capstone is actually all but in line with PF capstones. Two stances at a time is REALLY good if you do it right. Swordsage's doesn't really pop, it's okay in 3.5, but I wouldn't like sideways at them getting it earlier, which is usually the mark of a weak capstone. I don't remember crusader's capstone, because I've only ever used 1-4 levels of it with cleric to get into RKV. I'd like to see master of the 9 reworked, it's a flavorful PRC that deserves better. Bloodstorm blade could almost be ported straight over after cleaning the system differences (which are minor in this case), but then again I would . Eternal Blade, much the same as BSB. RKV and JPM are probably okay as is, though a couple lesser abilities on the "dead" levels would be appreciated especially ones that don't use turn attempts for RKV. Shadowsun ninja I really don't know enough about to say much (except that the first level ability is awesome if you have undead and living party members).

[navar100]

1) Find a suitable skill substitution for Concentration for Diamond Mind. I like Sense Motive, but Knowledge (Martial Lore) has logic.

2) Take the opportunity to fix the stance progressions so that adepts get a new stance when stances are available. Alternative: change rule to allow an adept to change a stance known at level 5 and every 5 levels after.

3) Fine tune maneuvers to taste. For example, clarify what Iron Heart Surge can and cannot undo even when not having a standard action or being able to move so that nausea and paralysis can be undone as they should be. Clearly define White Raven maneuvers that affect allies can affect the adept using it, though you may want to have specific exceptions for White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos, or not.

4) Make Adaptive Style a bonus feat for Swordsage at 1st level instead of the feat tax it now is.

5) Specifically clarify for your taste whether multi-classing into an adept at some level above 1 means your first stance must be a 1st level stance or follows the regular half-class level initiator level rules.

6) Specifically clarify for your taste having exactly 1 level in another class when multi-classing with an adept counts as 1 initiator level or 0 initiator levels due to half-class level initiator level rules.

7) Maybe give Swordsage full BAB and d10 HD, to taste.

8) Give Crusaders a suitable capstone at level 20.

[Larkas]

This. I'm not sure they don't need any changes, really; all I did with them was redo their class skills. You're also going to have to rethink how to do the Diamond Mind concentration checks; I went ahead with Initiator Level + Key ability modifier (Wis for Swordsage, Int for Warblade, Cha for Crusader in the event of Martial Study) +3 (Class skill bonus).

I was of the opinion of making it a skill check on some other skill (like Martial Lore), but I have come to accept this, or simply a straight Concentration Check (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#concentration) (i.e.:d20+Initiator Level+Ability Modifier) as the better option. I'm just not sure of which ability(ies) to use. Your choices are reasonable, but I'm partial to using Con for everyone.

[Draz74]

Those were actually my second option. I was considering floating them tonight. :smallredface:. I'm interested in opinions as to what people think as to which fits better.

I prefer the Survival / Intimidate / Climb options.

[Zanzanar]

Devouted spirit as intimidate makes them look like bullies, while white raven looks almost saintlike becuase of that(even though its the more savage one imo) and Stone Dragon is balance, its the art of having a ground to stand on, climbing is in the air! and did you know perception stats weren't in class for TOB classes? I don't have issues with the other ones. Wierd how simplifying things made things more difficult on you.

Devoted Spirit is Intimidate because it's all about being determined and intense, which is intimidating. White Raven is Diplomacy because it's all about cooperating and working with your allies.

Anyway, here's my take:

Desert Wind: Acrobatics. The way I envision the style, it's based around circular, almost dance-like movements that require a lot of coordination.

Devoted Spirit: Intimidate; no change needed.

Diamond Mind: Perception. The only problem is that it makes the skill too useful. Perception was already one of the best skills, and Diamond Mind is one of the two disciplines that uses its skill a lot. I don't think that's a big problem. It just saves you one skill point per level, since you were probably already going to max out Perception and whatever Diamond Mind goes off of. Perception being Wisdom-based also makes DM a better Swordsage discipline, but I think that's balanced out by the fact that Warblades find it a bit easier to get into the school since their favorite saving throw maneuver is level 1 (Will) while the Swordsage's is level 3 (Fortitude).

Iron Heart:Bluff. The style is half based on fancy swordwork and half on BY CROM! determination. Since the second one is hard to find a skill for, I looked for a skill for the first one. Bluff fits it pretty well, and fits into the pattern with Devoted Spirit and White Raven. Plus, it gives the Warblade more to do outside of combat, and nudges them towards having a decent Charisma, like it says in the book.

Setting Sun: Sense Motive; no change needed.

Shadow Hand: Stealth

Stone Dragon: Um... um... Climb? Maybe? You could just have it be Acrobatics if you want.

Tiger Claw:Acrobatics, they need to jump around. Yes, it's doubling up.

White Raven: Diplomacy; no change needed.

[rollforeigninit]

@Zan- I kinda like where you are heading with the skills but there's a reason I'm trying to avoid doubling up on Skills/Disciplines.

I'm thinking I'm gonna borrow from Sorc & Oracle (for example) and make some of the class skills dependent on which disciplines you take. Instead of giving each class a static discipline list, I'm giving them a number of disciplines they can choose from. I'm planning on giving each a set number of disciplines they can pick from. It'll work one of 2 ways, I think. Either I'll just give each a set number of disciplines they can take (Crusader gets 3, Swordsage gets 7, & Warblade gets 5.) OR maybe I should weight the supernatural disciplines higher & give each class points to spend. Opinions would be great.

Other question on a semi-related topic: I love Shadow Blade Feat. However it seems kinda limited artificially in a way that most of the other feats aren't. It seems to me that most ninja-style weapons should be able to benefit but it's pretty clear RAW. However, I have a hard time seeing how the Kusarigama & the like fit the school better than the now-nerfed Spiked Chain. As a House rule for a while now we allow any finesseable weapon that you have Weapon Focus with to qualify for Shadow Blade. Does that seem reasonable?

So I think I'll start with Swordsage as far as the 1st class revamp. Aside from it being my favorite for flavor reasons, it seems to most closely fit the model of what I would like to do to the classes from the ToB.

[Righteous Doggy]

Well... the discpline restrictions are actually made explicitly for the classes. A crusader without Divine Spirit help isn't a crusader, and a warblade with the supernatural abilities isn't a warblade... well they can be, but your looking to vastly change them if you do that.
Do what you want with feat taxes, so long as they're balanced with everyone else in the game. Swordsages suffer from enough mad anyway I think.

[rollforeigninit]

Well... the discpline restrictions are actually made explicitly for the classes. A crusader without Divine Spirit help isn't a crusader, and a warblade with the supernatural abilities isn't a warblade... well they can be, but your looking to vastly change them if you do that.
Do what you want with feat taxes, so long as they're balanced with everyone else in the game. Swordsages suffer from enough mad anyway I think.

Planning to basically give Swordsage Adaptive Style (seems to be move #1 on most of these kind of things). I agree that a Crusader is...... off without Devoted Spirit but what if the deity is neutral or something? If they don't want it they don't have to take it. I'm looking to make all 3 classes more customizable. I want all the options they have now to still be there, but some of the more clunky parts can be streamlined. Hoping to have the Swordsage up sometime tomorrow so it might get more clear as to what I'm trying for.