Help with Psychic Warrior Gestalt Please

[PowerGamer]

So I'm getting an evil campaign going and already had 2 of my ideas not work after reading some material... So this is got to work and it should but I need some help.

Basics:
-Evil Gestalt Level 11
-Race: Half-Giant
-Classes: Racial 1/Psychic warrior 11/ (need 10 more levels and don't know what to do. Wanting to have pyrokenisist levels...)
-Looking at combining a Cleave and Trip build (knock down feat)
-Main weapon: Large Greatsword (unknown enchantments)

Please help me!! If this doesn't work I have 1 last thing to try and I really don't want to do that because I'm already playing a good version of it in another campaign.

[TheMooch]

alright so you have psychic warrior 11//racial 1/barbarian 2/fighter 2/crusader 2

take wolf totem barbarian for improved trip (stack on lion totem and the whirling frenzy rage variant if your DM allows multiple)

fighter 2 for feats to jump start the build
crusader 2 for thicket of blades stance among other things

so you have 4 more free levels on one side so you could take 1LA of half minotaur so that you are even larger, you could take more levels of crusader, barbarian, or warblade

also not sure if you can trip with a greatsword

edit: you can also go psychic warrior 11/racial 1/cleric 4/bone knight 6 and grab some nice buffs as well as any other domains you want (cloistered cleric for extra skills and knowledge devotion)

[Aquillion]

Although this might be obvious, in general the advantage to using a psywar in gestalt comes from focusing on powers that can be activated as a swift action, as well as powers that can grant additional actions. Hustle is extremely valuable in combination with anything that has the ability to use move actions effectively, and psionic lion's charge is good with anything that can make strong full attacks.

Expansion is an absolute must; it can both be used as a swift action and provides a huge buff that isn't available in many other places (very few things let you go up two size categories.) In fact, in gestalt, it's often tempting to go for something that's actually Large size, since unlike Enlarge Person such races can still use Expansion. (A Half-Giant, of course, provides some of the benefits but won't get you the improved reach.) With Expansion, trip and grapple based builds are both logical things to focus on.

[Draz74]

Although this might be obvious, in general the advantage to using a psywar in gestalt comes from focusing on powers that can be activated as a swift action, as well as powers that can grant additional actions.

And long-term buffs. Inertial Armor is awesome. Because it lets you spend all your armor budget on just special enhancement effects. +1 Heavy Fortification Soulfire Padded Armor, anyone?

[Spuddles]

I would be tempted to do something like educated wilder 11//paladin of tyranny 3/dark companion hexblade4/blackguard 3/warblade 1.

It's not optimal, but my dark lord it would be fun. Massive debuffs on nearby enemies, a little wilder blasting, full BAB. Combine with some save or get stuffed effects.

[Rubik]

And don't forget the soulbound weapon alternative class feature. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Grab a whip-dagger and you can have the goodness of the pyrokineticist without losing any levels to the (somewhat bleh) PrC.

[Oscredwin]

Why not Swordsage?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, some general basics about Gestalt:

1) You get the best of both worlds, so make sure each class covers the other one

2) Mix Active abilities well and season with Passive abilities. Having too many active abilities doesn't help you much because you have only one round per turn (unless you decide to break the action economy)

3) Ideally, you're wanting something on one side or the other with full BAB, and a decent hit die, also try to match up the saves so you get all three good saves. These are some of the 'passives' which you really ought to blend in.

Okay, so PsiWar is an awesome class, but that 3/4 BAB is just begging to be paired with a full BAB class for more punch in your lunch. It also has a good Fort, but poor Reflex and Will saves. Particularly that Will save you need to get going, being all powerful won't do ya a lot of good if you're getting Dominated. However, 'full BAB' and 'Good Will' don't cross very often. Fortunately, there's a solution for this.

It's called Warblade. No, it doesn't come with a high Will save, however it DOES come with access to Diamond Mind, which has a nifty set of Counters that lets you trade off a saving throw for a Concentration check.

Also, check it out... d12 HD and full BAB! Score!

Now, a lot of people go for that Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for that sweet, tasty Pounce. It's... well, strictly speaking, it's not completely necessary, you do get Pouncing Strike in Tiger Claw, but it'll save you a maneuver slot, and unlimited use. Use it if you want, but it's not 'ZOMG GET!'

However, let's say you don't want to go Warblade, let's say you're wanting something tankier with some self-healing... well, let's nip on over to Crusader.

Again, does it have a high Will save? No. But it DOES net Cha to Will save, which isn't too shabby. Only has a d10 HD, but that's plenty good enough for our purposes, when you take into consideration Steely Resolve that lets you delay damage, and get bonuses for it in the process. A free re-roll on a failed save is never a bad thing either.

Now, let's talk Stances. The big question for you: Do you want to punish opponents for not attacking you, or do you want to eat up damage like cracker jacks?

Iron Guard's Glare is generally the go-to for low-end tanking, because it hits opponents with a harsh (at low levels) penalty on their attack roll when they don't go after you. Basically, it is tantamount to free AC for the whole party. What's not to like about that?

Martial Spirit, on the other hands, gives you passive healing every time you smack someone around. Dude, you're healing by beating the crap out of someone... that's like having your cake and eating it too.

The only other stance you might want to consider is Leading The Charge, and only if you are in a charge-centric build. Even then, it's a toss-up.

Now let's talk maneuvers

Vanguard Strike. You know how a lot of 'striker' type classes only have 3/4 BAB? Yea, at low levels particularly, that can suck. This solves the problem by giving allies a bonus to hit him. It's like an AC debuff AND a hit all rolled into one! If you don't take it down, someone else can.

Crusader's Strike. So, what was that? Martial Spirit is fun, but not enough healing? Well, my friend, this little maneuver gives you scaling healing on a swing. So again, it's like the Vampiric quality on a Diablo 2 weapon... you hit them, you heal. It's that simple. Combine the two, and it's darn near impossible to hurt you and make the damage stick.

Stone Bones. So healing isn't enough for you, there has to be some mitigation involved as well? Say no more, my friend, here ya go. DR 5/Adamantine at 1st level. Wade through those mooks without fear. Also handy as a prerequsite for Shards of Granite, but more on that later.

Leading The Attack. It's like Vanguard's Strike. In fact, it's nearly identical. So why bother? Because of how Crusader maneuver recovery mechanics works, that's why. Basically, you get a revolving door when it comes to maneuvers. So if you need to make sure the whole group can dogpile this guy, having two different maneuvers that does the same thing can ensure that at least one of them is up at all times. The downside... it eats up one of your precious few maneuvers known slots. It is required, however, if you want Clarion Call, so choose carefully between this or Vanguard's Strike.

Now then, let's talk Feats.

There's two feats I have mentioned already: Shards of Granite and Clarion Call. Both are tactical feats, and both give something useful to you.

First off, Shards of Granite requires Stone Power. Basically, it's like Power Attack, only it gives you temporary hit points, which are refreshed on your next turn's attack. Basically, it's like ignoring the first ten damage you take every round in combat. For someone who is expecting plenty of damage heading his way, this is yet another way to Just Say No to Damage.

Right, that's just the prerequisite. Shards of Granite lets you ignore hardness and any form of DR when you do it. Lots of PsiWar builds require a lot of attacks, and DR is the bane of any multi-attack progression, since it applies to every single attack. This? Ignores that. Yes, you can bypass the DR/Epic on Big T, if you were to lay a smack down on him, using this feat.

How cool is that?

Now, Clarion Call is more situational, it pre-supposes you have someone in the party that does a lot more damage when he is flanking. Like... oh, I dunno... let's say your party Rogue. A flat DC 20 intimidate check, and the opponent is declared flanked for a full minute. That's 12 rounds, for those who aren't familiar with the conversion. Now, many interpret this to say that this even flanks those who have Improved Uncanny Dodge, because you're not trying to flank them, you are declared to have, but your mileage may vary depending on GM's interpretation. As always, consult with your GM to decide if this interpretation is right for you. Do not take if you are ore may become... oh, wait, wrong fine print.

Now, PsiWar does some very lovely things, now that you have a full BAB.

* Expansion. If for nothing else, this is worth the class all by itself. It's reach and more damage all wrapped into one. What's not to like?

* Biofeedback. Augmentable DR/-. If you don't pick up Stone Bones, or similar, then this might be of interest to you if you want to be able to eat up spicy hot damage like it was weaksauce.

* Force Screen. Since you are probably going to be using a two-handed weapon, this is basically augmentable free AC.

And, of course, Dimension Hop/Slide for maneuverability.

[dspeyer]

You want:
full bab
good hd (maybe. d8 isn't bad)
good will and ref saves, or a general save bonus
wis synergy
abilities that don't require a ton of actions


As ShneekeyTheLost explained, Warblade with Diamond Mind counters gets everything except wis synergy (and Diamond Mind offense has some nice concentration synergy). Swordsage gets you the wis synergy and better saves, but at the cost of bab, which is important.

Alternatives...

Paladin of Tyranny with the Serenity feat does all this. Bad saves, but divine grace. Smite good and direct mount don't require additional actions. If you're DM is lenient, you can share powers with your mount, creating a powerful ally. Especially with the Draconic Mount feat.

Ranger has everything except the will save (though that's important). The skills might make for some nice out-of-combat options.

Barbarian is probably a bad idea, since by most interpretations you can't manifest powers while raging. An analogy to Druidic Avenger suggests you could trade rage for a druid-like animal companion. That might be ok, especially if you can share powers with it. Still doesn't give you better saves.

Any regular divine caster is also an option. Doesn't help with the hd or the bab (unless you use Divine Power) but excellent power. May run you into an action shortage, even for swift actions.

[Gotterdammerung]

Would be a decent opportunity to tag on cleric 5 / Stormcaster 5.
(for gods talos works)
Then use Born of three thunders and thunderbolt with any of the spells that give your melee weapon energy damage (energy substituted if needed).

Use a spiked chain and whirlwind attack.

Inhumane reach and expansion

use hustle to get in the best position then use whirlwind attack to

Attack everyone on the board at once and force them to make 2 saves versus stun and 1 save versus prone as well as take damage.

Dip a lvl of crusader at the right moment for thicket of blades for even more lockdown.

[Darth Stabber]

Swordsage is a good option (atleast for a dip), since with 2lvls you get 2 stances, some good manuevers and wis to ac. Crusader has less wis synergy, but it has more manuevers and stances pertinent to your interest. What you could do is psywarX/otherstuff//LA1/cleric3/crusader1/ruby knight vindicatorX. This gives you all sorts of neat goodies including extra swift actions (not to mention some cleric casting). If you want less cleric casting take cleric1/crusader3 for entry.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Half-Giant racial class in Complete Psionic (page 148) to get your +1 LA along side of Psychic Warrior 2, so you can get a +1 BAB class at 1st level and still get full BAB for your build.

You should definitely use Fighter 2+ with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape. Get the feat Knock Back from Races of Stone, and you can knock them into the wall for tons of damage in addition to knocking them prone. Use two levels of Wolf-Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), preferably with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), to get Improved Trip without having to take Combat Expertise or meet a minimum Int prerequisite. You can get Extra Rage a few times to use your Whirling Frenzy more than 1/day.

I'd probably go Wolf-Totem Barbarian 1/ LA +1/ Fighter 2/ Wolf-Totem Barbarian 1/ War Mind 6// Psychic Warrior 11, and get Practiced Manifester for War Mind. That will give you way more power points, Wis-based bonus pp twice, and quite a few more powers known plus some nice class features. You'll need to be NE to fulfill the nonlawful/nonchaotic requirements of those classes.

Sweeping Strike combines with your tricks in a very interesting way. You make an attack, and you get to hit up to three opponents. Each of those opponents is subject to Knock Back and Knock Down. Knock Back slams each of them into a wall (or into the floor if you're flying above them) for Dungeoncrasher damage. Knock Down gives you a trip attempt against each one. Each successful trip gives you another attack via Improved Trip, which is also a Sweeping Strike. Each of those attacks allow Knock Back again, for even more Dungeoncrasher damage.

Then there's the Great Cleave + Bag of Rats trick. Dump the rats next to two opponents (move action), make an attack (standard action). Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat...

[Darth Stabber]

Then there's the Great Cleave + Bag of Rats trick. Dump the rats next to two opponents (move action), make an attack (standard action). Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat. Make a cleave attack, Sweeping Strike hits both opponents and a rat, you kill the rat...

That is an awesome trick! Creative and functional, with a dash of sadistic.

[Draz74]

You want:
full bab
good hd (maybe. d8 isn't bad)
good will and ref saves, or a general save bonus
wis synergy
abilities that don't require a ton of actions


As ShneekeyTheLost explained, Warblade with Diamond Mind counters gets everything except wis synergy (and Diamond Mind offense has some nice concentration synergy). Swordsage gets you the wis synergy and better saves, but at the cost of bab, which is important.

This analysis makes me think you want to improve your BAB on the PsyWar side of the build, not the other side.

Something like:
Ranger 1 / Barbarian 1 / Swordsage 18 // Psychic Warrior 4 / Slayer 9 / Psychic Warrior 7

[Spuddles]

ToB//psywar isn't as good a gestalt as it looks on paper, as both sides make heavy use of swift/immediate actions.


That is an awesome trick! Creative and functional, with a dash of sadistic.

I used to work with whirlwind attack and cleave in 3.0....

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion is a Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms for your other side. It grants you much passive abilities from your forms, allows you to ignore strength and dexterity (crank up that con baby!), and gives you up to garantuan sized creatures to stack with your claws (and maybe using Expansion).

[Greyfeld85]

You want:
full bab
good hd (maybe. d8 isn't bad)
good will and ref saves, or a general save bonus
wis synergy
abilities that don't require a ton of actions


As ShneekeyTheLost explained, Warblade with Diamond Mind counters gets everything except wis synergy (and Diamond Mind offense has some nice concentration synergy). Swordsage gets you the wis synergy and better saves, but at the cost of bab, which is important.

Depends on how he staggers his classes, honestly. Since he's going Trip/Grapple build, he could use the extra feats, so it wouldn't hurt to do something like this:

PsyWar11//Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Swordsage9

The totem gives Improved Trip for free, he gets Rage as needed, Fast movement +10; and he gets full BAB, all good saves starting at level 3, and Wisdom synergy between the two main classes. It also allows you to dump Int and bypass Combat Expertise on your way to Improved Trip, which is nice.

Though admittedly, I don't know which Discipline is preferred for this style of fighting, so I couldn't say if Swordsage is appropriate for this build or not. Though it holds up just as easily if you would prefer to go with Warblade or Crusader.

[docnessuno]

To be honest i never understood all the buzz about psy-warrior, while at the same time i love the War Mind prc.
Taking a quick look at level 11 a psywar got 28 PP and 4th level powers, a lvl6 war mind got 28 PP and lvl3 powers (less powers known tho). Progressing further to 15th level as a psywar nets us 67 PP and 5th level powers, reaching lvl10 war mind gives us 70 PP and 5th level powers. This without even considering the awesome features of the PrC (+4 str/con/AC as a free action, sweeping strike, DR/-) and the fact that it's full BAB and lets you play with 5 more levels before entering.
Barbarian while an amazing class clashes a bit with psy characters (rage), so i'd use something like this:

LA 1 / Duskblade 4 / War mind 6 // ToB Class 11 or Duskblade 5 / War mind 6 // LA 1 / ToB Class 10

For ToB swordsage fits nicely with the Wis sinergy (it could require a 1 level fighter dip to keep full BAB depending on where you put the LA), but Crusader and Warblade are more than viable options.
Duskblade is there to enhance the gish feeling, it's not mandatory and can be freely substituted with other classes, remember tho that you'd need Knowledge (psionics) as a class skill for for at least 1-2 levels to get in War mind

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, looking at your request for what to do with more levels on your Psywarrior side, I suggest the Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) which nets you a metric ton of extra PPs (and other goodies). Then for the other side you should take Crusader all the way up, which will net you the BaB and health you need. Thicket of Blades + Expansion+Spiked Chain=crackdown.

[Darth Stabber]

To be honest i never understood all the buzz about psy-warrior, while at the same time i love the War Mind prc.

Psywar is a base class, you can start doing it lvl1, it doesn't require anything to get into (though obviously need certain stats to use it effectively). It also gives bonus feats (fighter+psionic), and you have full manifester level without using feats or other expentitures. It makes you psionic as opposed to requiring it. It's a really good class, with a lot of potential. Warmind is just psywar condensed into a PRC, kinda like Ur Priest is condensed cleric (though warmind isn't nearly as strong).