Paladins + Necromancer = </3

[Righteous Doggy]

So, I've been having trouble with one person in a group lately. He's a bit young, but he's annoying, and I finally acted on his actions ingame. Since we started the kid has been obsessed with being a necromancer. I'm okay with that, except that he was obviously evil, in a good party. We let him play his drow dread necromancer(he played a full LA drow becuase they were 'cool') becuase he agreed to keep his evil a secret or at least under control in character. He didn't. Every actions starts with "can I do <evil act>" and he murdered the druids pet immidiately after he let it go, and we let that slip. He died when he asked the druid to heal him in a really heated battle(he had tomb tainted soul.) So he moves onto his new character, a shaman npc that we just happened to have around and agreed to play our divine role. However... he is insistant on being a necromancer still(only now, of pelor!), and after 5 months with him, he still wants to be one. He constantly insist that "undead are nuetral. we can use them for good!" against characters with high sense motive and the power to read minds. Finally, he runs away from our party when I threaten to do something about it in character, he runs away and starts stalking my group. So I report him to the town gaurd and he's on the run for numerous atrocities he did for the evulz. I feel kind of bad, but I was finally fed up with him and he in and out of character had just been such an awful person.

tl;dr version: Good guys, bad guys, how do we all get along and did I react alright? and I wonder if I could have done better in that situation.

[Andreaz]

"Undead are neutral, can be used for good" is fine, dandy and beside the point. I presume your problem is that he's being stupid-evil in a group that does not want to play stupid-evil?

Well, can't really do much about it. Talk to him. Tell him "we don't want that". If he can't be assed playing something else, it's his own damn problem.

[Tokuhara]

Seems he's playing an Anti-Munchkin and a Diva, so what you did was appropriate. He's just lucky it wasn't me DMing, lest I'd've kicked him from the group.

My suggestion is to pull the player aside and talk to him. If he's hell-bent on playing a Necromancer, that's cool. However, he needs to play nice with the group. If he can't do that, then wish him the best of luck in all of his future endeavors.

As for the Alignment question, Alignment shift can SUCK if you are connected to a deity/have alignment restrictions. Enforce them. If the party cleric/rogue is connected to Bahamut, but is a Klepto, tell him that Bahamut is no longer listening to his prayers, adjust his alignment to NG, and have him make atonement (fyi, it's EXPENSIVE and painstaking to say the least).

Hope this helps you out, bud.

[Righteous Doggy]

@Andreaz Oh yeah, Undead can be good, but he was in fact stupid evil, and he didn't keep it a secret from the obviously good teammates.

@Toku Oh, he never changed alignment. His new toon was his to make in the boundaries of the class. He chose to be a Necromancer of Pelor, and then to insist that he would be a necromancer first chance. If I was DM I wouldn't let him go half as far as he did. Thanks for the support btw.

To clarify, I did talk to him. Several times, in and out of character. He's just being immature I think, but i guess he'll have to pay for it in character now.

[Madara]

Sounds like he hasn't had much time to live out his character idea.

Maybe he didn't play it long enough to enjoy and use up the concept.

What level did you guys play at? Did he get to build an undead army?


Strike a deal with him to play a hero/good character now, and save the necromancer for the evil campaign you guys will have later.

[LordDrakulzen]

How is it possible to be a "Necromancer of Pelor"?:smallconfused:

Unless my mind is off (very possible) Pelor detests undead. He is the most outspoken diety about them, and thus his Clerics and other divine followers are out to destroy undead.

Now, I will say there has been more than once that I have wanted to try to play a LG Necromancer, but haven't yet found the group to do so. :smalltongue:

[Righteous Doggy]

@Madara No, he didn't, but this isn't the group to be doing it with. The noble ranger and me are very much opposed to him doing it. I'll try seeing if he wants to play a goody too shoes for now, he can always play another toon later. I know I have dozens of characters I'd absolutely love to play, 58 character sheets premade at this very moment, for this game. Can't have everything! And no, he didn't get the evil army. His dread necromancer made and this guy are ECL 4. The rest of the team is nine at the moment. He chose to stay behind and study at a clergy for a whole quest as soon as he got his new toon.

@LordDrak Yeah... by raw you really can't be. Raising dead is a twisted, innately evil act. The whole desecration, negative energy, and cruel intentions thing isn't so good, and Pelor would probably smite him first chance. I know I was about to!

[NOhara24]

-snip-

The various Stupid alignments (Stupid Good, Neutral, Evil...etc.) have no place in any party I am participating in. As it's been said before, I would have kicked him. As far as I'm concerned, he's just not a good player.

Let him try to be a necromancer of Pelor. Have "Pelor" appear to him, deliver a divine punch to the face, and crush his dice to dust.

[Tokuhara]

The various Stupid alignments (Stupid Good, Neutral, Evil...etc.) have no place in any party I am participating in. As it's been said before, I would have kicked him. As far as I'm concerned, he's just not a good player.

Let him try to be a necromancer of Pelor. Have "Pelor" appear to him, deliver a divine punch to the face, and crush his dice to dust.

Better, More tasteful option. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLjz-NKj0U)

If a deity did that to my character, I'd straighten the heck out.

[Righteous Doggy]

Again, I'm not DM or I wouldn't let this ridiculousness happen. I was kind of waiting to see what the DM would do when he does cast an evil spell. I've decided to play god, but I shall show him mercy... I have baleful polymorph prepared today, he shall be an uglybutt possom next time I catch his character.:smallyuk:

[Ranting Fool]

Better, More tasteful option. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLjz-NKj0U)

If a deity did that to my character, I'd straighten the heck out.

hehe, well the thing is when one member of the party is playing an evil charcter and keeps doing evil things (often to the party) who aren't evil, the party tend to get angry and kick Mr Evil (I've seen no proof he went to uni) out/in the face.

I'd allow a Good necromancer (I've got a LN one who often "Uses the tools of evil to fight evil" but unless I really changed the fluff for Pelor I'd say go Wejaz or something :smallbiggrin:

That and you can be an evil charcter in a good party and just hide it a lot better, hey clerics get spells of no-dection type things as well as spells to make undead look (but not smell) human-ish :smallbiggrin:

[Pilo]

Explain to him that necromancer won't fit in your current game. That you give him a try but what you want is a hero. Otherwise explain him that slavery is not evil and that's why his next character will be buy by one of your pcs.

[NineThePuma]

Sounds to me like he REALLY REALLY wants to be a Necromancer.

I say you guys take a session out, sit down with him, and help him build a decent necromancer crunch wise, and spend the rest of the time together helping him with his fluff. Take the time to make him think about why his character is doing these things.

Yes, he's annoying, but can you honestly say you were never immature? He sounds like this is one of his first games, and he doesn't know the etiquette yet.

And as for a Necromancer of Pelor... well, there's always The Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate).

[Answerer]

Even the Burning Hate probably doesn't espouse necromancy (from the thread: "Pelor hates undead as they cannot properly suffer in the same way as mortals."). Pelor is just... that's like one of the very few gods I can't see making work. Plenty of other XG deities I could see allowing the undead, but Pelor is the super-anti-undead god. I'm all for refluffing anything you want and I hate the alignment system, but if you've changed Pelor enough that he allows undead he probably deserves a new name. And it really doesn't sound like you have changed Pelor, he just did that.

An intervention seems most appropriate. Like, the whole group sitting down and saying "dude, you're being a ****, you need to stop that." Killing the Druid's pet is just ridiculous. No one likes that kind of behavior; I cannot begin to imagine why he would think it was appropriate to begin with.

[GreenSerpent]

The only way I can see Necromancy working with Pelor is either with a great priest of Pelor who chooses to remain on the world in order to lock away and guard some great evil and becomes an archlich communing directly with the God - or possibly with a great warrior who becomes one of the Deathless in order to, again, lock away and guard some great evil. Pelor might look more favourably upon that.

However these two options would involve a lot of Communing directly with Pelor and an Elder Evil that needed to be guarded so it couldn't escape.

Which there is none at the moment, I presume?

[NineThePuma]

Dismissed pet, mind. As in, the Druid dismissed it and then the necromancer killed it.

[Answerer]

Yeaaah... that's only marginally better.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why do you state the problem as necromancy? The problem is, he's acting Stupid Evil. It wouldn't be any better if he didn't have the desire to play a necromancer.

Sentient undead are evil, but zombies and skeletons and such don't go and eat brains when left to their own devices.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if he plays a dread necro or cleric or anything like that. He can be perfectly fine in the party. The problem is, you let him play evil alignment, and he takes that as an excuse to do any evil thing he wants.

[Knight13]

Now, I will say there has been more than once that I have wanted to try to play a LG Necromancer, but haven't yet found the group to do so.



@LordDrak Yeah... by raw you really can't be. Raising dead is a twisted, innately evil act. The whole desecration, negative energy, and cruel intentions thing isn't so good, and Pelor would probably smite him first chance. I know I was about to!
I recommend the Bone Knight PrC from Eberron: Five Nations. It's a necromancy PrC where the fluff can actually support playing it as LG.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I recommend the Bone Knight PrC from Eberron: Five Nations. It's a necromancy PrC where the fluff can actually support playing it as LG.

Eberron is D&D's attempt to be morally grey, or at least screw with common perceptions. It also distinctly lacks Pelor and his specifically anti-undead agenda.

That said, Bone Knight is still a great class.

[Alienist]

Why do you state the problem as necromancy?

Probably because the other kinds of stupid evil would be easier to ignore.

Somebody just needs to build a char with massive bonuses to turning undead. I know what y'all are thinking, you're thinking "but Alienist, what does DMM:persist have to do with this situation", but bear with me, I know this sounds crazy, but it turns out that another, much ignored use of turn undead is to actually turn the undead! How bizarre is that?

So whenever Mr Stupid Evil pops up with some undead, have the designated undead-popper shout "aaiieee! The undeads! Why do they follow us? Truly we are opposed by the dark gods themselves!" and then blow away his minions.

If he complains, point out that is (a) exactly what good characters would do normally, and (b) if he complains about griefing, remind him that is exactly what he is doing to the group, killing their animal companions and **** like that.

Only help him optimise a character that is literally going to be a team player, otherwise you're rewarding him for griefing. Hint: don't reward bad play.

[Righteous Doggy]

I said the problem was stupid evil, and he's our only divine caster, so no turning! I just used the paladin vs. necromancer thingy becuase they seem like iconic good guy, bad guy images, and they just can't seem to get along!(like my group and this guy! no luv </3).
Btw, I fully understand good necromancers, and nuetral ones. I've made them too you know! My favorite was a teacher/librarian(cloistered cleric) who traveled from town to town. However... The dm already said that undead are almost always evil, and the player is very obviously a bad guy. Hence me deciding to turn him into the police and into a possum!

[Tokuhara]

I said the problem was stupid evil, and he's our only divine caster, so no turning! I just used the paladin vs. necromancer thingy becuase they seem like iconic good guy, bad guy images, and they just can't seem to get along!(like my group and this guy! no luv </3).
Btw, I fully understand good necromancers, and nuetral ones. I've made them too you know! My favorite was a teacher/librarian(cloistered cleric) who traveled from town to town. However... The dm already said that undead are almost always evil, and the player is very obviously a bad guy. Hence me deciding to turn him into the police and into a possum!

I say give him this build:

Human

Crusader of Pelor the Burning Hate 8/Divine Crusader of Pelor the Burning Hate 10/Crusader of Pelor the Burning Hate 2

There. He's a divine caster (9th level Sun or Evil, his choice), evil, and not going to be a pain in the backside to the party. In fact, he will be an aid.

Have him use a Morningstar (More sun god-y, it should count) and have him use every feat that revolves around Bludgeoning and 2hf.

[Righteous Doggy]

@Toku I am not the DM, and I will not give him anything he wants!
Edit: Especially not a lvl 20 character. This is not for optimization, this is me dealing with a player who disagrees with the group. Therse compromise, but the last thing I'm going to do is give him that.

[Tokuhara]

@Toku I am not the DM, and I will not give him anything he wants!
Edit: Especially not a lvl 20 character. This is not for optimization, this is me dealing with a player who disagrees with the group. Therse compromise, but the last thing I'm going to do is give him that.

The build is sub-optimal.

If anything, give him a Truenamer character. Doesn't matter your alignment when you don't work mechanically (see? Casters can suck too!)

[Scowling Dragon]

Well it depends on your undead mythos:

Are the undead created by forcing the souls of the dead into rotting corpses causing the very souls of the dead to suffer? Does necromancy inherently damage the soul?

If so, then it can still be played as a "Greater good" character. Just as long as its given gravity.


Or are they just rotting corpses? And is necromancy a energy as any other?

As long as either is given gravity and reason it can work fine.

[Chronos]

When he attacked the druid's pet, the rest of the party (or at least, the druid, but everyone else would probably end up taking sides) should have killed him, plain and simple. The great thing about roleplaying games is that you can take any action you want. The even greater thing is that those actions all have consequences.

[Tokuhara]

When he attacked the druid's pet, the rest of the party (or at least, the druid, but everyone else would probably end up taking sides) should have killed him, plain and simple. The great thing about roleplaying games is that you can take any action you want. The even greater thing is that those actions all have consequences.

I agree with a caveat: Gimp the next character he makes.

Example: Secret Flaw that states that whenever he does evil, his blood boils, causing him 1d4 damage. Eventually, he'll get the message.

[Righteous Doggy]

@Toku/Scowling Not what I asked, not what I needed in anyway.
@Chronos We pretended it never happened, and the druid wanted an excuse to get a new pet anyway. It was bleeding out and we had our backs turned. "oh hey, guess he didn't make it" sort of thing. His toon died the very next battle too. Again though, he probably isn't going to get much further on his current character becuase he still hasn't learned.

[Tokuhara]

@Toku/Scowling Not what I asked, not what I needed in anyway.
@Chronos We pretended it never happened, and the druid wanted an excuse to get a new pet anyway. It was bleeding out and we had our backs turned. "oh hey, guess he didn't make it" sort of thing. His toon died the very next battle too. Again though, he probably isn't going to get much further on his current character becuase he still hasn't learned.

Next session, kill his character. Tell him to act mature of **** off. Simple, direct, and makes life easier.

[Righteous Doggy]

Toku! I just said i was going to. I've said it several times this thread. I said it in the very first post. And you are giving it as advice... The only things I wanted were asked in the very first post...