Zombie dragon or skeletal dragon?

[Venger]

Normally, dragons don't make very good skeles since their AC is so low and they lose their ability to fly, plus the good ones are often over 20HD, and don't make good zombies b/c the ones you can get have to be less than 10HD, which is just sort of a waste of time.

I did find draconomicon's skeletal dragon and zombie dragon templates, which remove the HD cap and let you keep some abilities.

I've got an adult blue dragon I'm going to need to animate soon
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

and I was wondering what the general consensus was regarding which one is better.

zombie keeps the fly speed, has much better AC, breath weapon, and a little more health, but loses frightful presence, takes a slap to CHA, lowering the breath weapon save DC, and has single actions only

skeleton loses the fly speed, has horrible AC, no breath weapon, and a little less health, but keeps frighful presence, has his cha untouched, and is allowed to take normal actions

which is better?

[Particle_Man]

The question is which would look better on a Heavy Metal album cover.

I have to go with skeletal dragon. :smallcool:

[JeminiZero]

It really depends.

Do you have a reliable source of flight? If no, a zombie dragon makes a fine mount. Heck, it could serve as taxi for the whole party. (See also Silverclawshift crystal cantrips campaign).

Otherwise, do you have some source of buffs that boosts damage for each attach? (Eg dragonfire inspiration bard). If yes, the skeleton dragon with its many attacks becomes a strong choice.

[Igneel]

As stated already it kinda depends on the reason for and possible uses.

For the Zombie, its mostly can be used as a mount, a minor secondary blaster (with its breath weapon), and a meat shield (haha).

The Skeleton can be used more for scaring smaller enemies and being more of a fighter with its ability to attack more.

[Toliudar]

Because skeleton dragons retain full attack as as option, I'd say that they're straight-up better than zombies, unless you need to be able to fly. The zombie dragon's breath weapon is so weak as to be irrelevant in combat situations.

[Venger]

Because skeleton dragons retain full attack as as option, I'd say that they're straight-up better than zombies, unless you need to be able to fly. The zombie dragon's breath weapon is so weak as to be irrelevant in combat situations.

I have a sort of dragonish kind of monster from the wheel of time expansion splat (DM's using it as part of the setting) as a zombie. he's gargantuan as a 7HD creature, so he probably has the party covered as far as transport goes (and at 7HD, that's about all he's good for)

according to draconomicon, zombie dragons can full attack too, they just can't move and attack (but lion's charge takes care of that)

we're lvl 11 atm. is a 100ft line of 6d6 electric damage with ref DC of 22 still weak? I know it's only 1/1d4 rounds, but it still seems like it might come in handy at least some of the time.

the crush attack has the proviso that it'll only work on small or smaller creatures, which doesn't seem especially useful. skeles lose it, zombies keep it.

in everyone's experience, how helpful is the skele's cold immunity? theoretically, it seems like a good idea to me to get the skele to grapple an enemy or two and bomb the hell out of them with energy subbed AoE energy effects. I don't have the feats to go uttercold assault unfortunately. is it still worthwhile?

[Darth Stabber]

I have a bias toward the zombie dragon, just something satisfying about flying around on one that is worth any lost combat utility. Plus they keep SR, making harder to blast it out from under you.

[Yorrin]

I'm with Darth Stabber on this one. Flight + SR + better AC is everything I want from a mindless undead dragon. Because honestly- if you're built well then a skeletal dragon really has very little to offer. A bit a damage? Sure, I guess. But what is a few points of damage compared to like a 200ft/round mobile platform of death that never has to sleep? Zombie dragons are my mounts of choice for any non-good caster I play, unless I somehow get a Vampiric Dragon and/or Dracolich under my command.

[moritheil]

I don't suppose you killed it with negative levels, and can thus just wait around for it to raise as a wight dragon (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20010727a)? :smallwink:

[Venger]

I have a bias toward the zombie dragon, just something satisfying about flying around on one that is worth any lost combat utility. Plus they keep SR, making harder to blast it out from under you.
I am inclined to agree with you, which is what forced this difficult choice in the first place.

wait. why wouldn't skele keep SR? I don't see anything in the book that says that zombie would get it and skele wouldn't. if they keep SR and skeles don't that's honestly reason enough, I'd just like to know where it says skele dragons lose SR, because if it's in there, I missed it.

I'm with Darth Stabber on this one. Flight + SR + better AC is everything I want from a mindless undead dragon. Because honestly- if you're built well then a skeletal dragon really has very little to offer. A bit a damage? Sure, I guess. But what is a few points of damage compared to like a 200ft/round mobile platform of death that never has to sleep? Zombie dragons are my mounts of choice for any non-good caster I play, unless I somehow get a Vampiric Dragon and/or Dracolich under my command.
well, I like to think my guy's well built (factotum5/chameleon6) unfortunately, my rebuking's kind of worthless for rebuking, so I don't think vamp dragons or dracoliches are going to be joining my fan club any time soon.

I don't suppose you killed it with negative levels, and can thus just wait around for it to raise as a wight dragon (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20010727a)? :smallwink:
lol. I do love me some terrible puns.

[Endarire]

Go, go Zombie Dragon! K agrees with me (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733.0)!

[Darth Stabber]

Assuming you GM is dumb enough to throw a zombie dragon at you, a quick truecast followed by command undead will get the job done starting at lvl 3 for wizards considering they're mindless.

And even if skeletal dragons keep their SR, they still don't fly. Having the only thing sitting between 1,000ft drop be resistant to spells is important.

[The Crash Man]

Its a bit of a shame Skeletal Dragons lose something as all-important as Fly and breath weapons. After all, they look way more metal than zombie dragons.

Dracoliches are superior to both, though.

[Darth Stabber]

Its a bit of a shame Skeletal Dragons lose something as all-important as Fly and breath weapons. After all, they look way more metal than zombie dragons.

Dracoliches are superior to both, though.

Problems with dracoliches:
Chances are that they have way too many it dice to command trough rebuke.
They probably have way too much will save for command undead to work.
There is no spell that reanimates corpses as liches.

They are clearly a better tougher creature to have around, but they are much hafder to aquire, practically impossible pre-epic (though I'm sure there is a way by RAW, but I can't imagine a GM allowing it). Zombie and skeletal dragons are both accessable to pre-epic non-tippy caster. Just snag a hucueva, affix it to the zombie dragon in a manner that does not hinder somatic components, and have it cast spells, there I replicated 75% of the reason you want a dracolich, in a more accessable manner.

[Venger]

Assuming you GM is dumb enough to throw a zombie dragon at you, a quick truecast followed by command undead will get the job done starting at lvl 3 for wizards considering they're mindless.

And even if skeletal dragons keep their SR, they still don't fly. Having the only thing sitting between 1,000ft drop be resistant to spells is important.

well, I don't think that's likely. we're gonna battle a living dragon today (adult blue) so I was planning on raising it, not running into an already zombified dragon.

[Darth Stabber]

well, I don't think that's likely. we're gonna battle a living dragon today (adult blue) so I was planning on raising it, not running into an already zombified dragon.

I figured as much, it was more of general tip. Zombie dragon is more fun, skeletal dragon can contribute more to a fight. That being said, the zombie dragon has more utility.

[Venger]

welp, turned out being moot.

we killed the dragon, but its body exploded into light and morphed into a bluespawn godslayer. we killed that too and despite my protestations, the wizard disintegrated his body so I couldn't animate it either.

I will keep this in mind if the opportunity ever arises again. I'll go zombie.

[Darth Stabber]

welp, turned out being moot.

we killed the dragon, but its body exploded into light and morphed into a bluespawn godslayer. we killed that too and despite my protestations, the wizard disintegrated his body so I couldn't animate it either.

I will keep this in mind if the opportunity ever arises again. I'll go zombie.

That's too bad. When you are playing a necromancer you have to come to an arrangement with the rest of your party that leaves choice corpses intact. As a wizard/sorcerer, were I in a party with a DN or other magician bent on making corpses into it's toys I probably would be somewhat uninterested in disintigrate, since it robs them of raw materials. Now I wouldn't let it dictate my character too much, but I would at least try for the courtesy. You can't judge spells in a vacuum, you have to mesh with the party, even if that means not picking spells that are normally golden, since you an additional critereon to judge them on.

[Urpriest]

That's too bad. When you are playing a necromancer you have to come to an arrangement with the rest of your party that leaves choice corpses intact. As a wizard/sorcerer, were I in a party with a DN or other magician bent on making corpses into it's toys I probably would be somewhat uninterested in disintigrate, since it robs them of raw materials. Now I wouldn't let it dictate my character too much, but I would at least try for the courtesy. You can't judge spells in a vacuum, you have to mesh with the party, even if that means not picking spells that are normally golden, since you an additional critereon to judge them on.

My guess is that the Wizard disintegrated the corpse not as standard practice, but because it had a proven track record of getting back up again when left alone.

[Venger]

That's too bad. When you are playing a necromancer you have to come to an arrangement with the rest of your party that leaves choice corpses intact. As a wizard/sorcerer, were I in a party with a DN or other magician bent on making corpses into it's toys I probably would be somewhat uninterested in disintigrate, since it robs them of raw materials. Now I wouldn't let it dictate my character too much, but I would at least try for the courtesy. You can't judge spells in a vacuum, you have to mesh with the party, even if that means not picking spells that are normally golden, since you an additional critereon to judge them on.
I have had this problem since the start of the game. I honestly have no idea why this happened, the wizard gained nothing and my chameleon lost a considerable amount (a 12HD monster with 15ft reach? want)



My guess is that the Wizard disintegrated the corpse not as standard practice, but because it had a proven track record of getting back up again when left alone.

nope. the DM had more or less told us in-character that we know this is the end of the dungeon we were in and the godslayer was the last fight. we knew it wasn't going to turn into something else. the wizard just wanted to "try out her 6th lvl spells". derp.

[Madara]

In this case, a blue's breath weapon isn't that great. Go with Skeleton on this one.

For other Dragons, Zombie is much better. A zombie Gold is just plain amazing with its negative levels :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Stabber]

In this case, a blue's breath weapon isn't that great. Go with Skeleton on this one.

For other Dragons, Zombie is much better. A zombie Gold is just plain amazing with its negative levels :smallbiggrin:

Zombie still wins even with crappy breath weapon, IT FLIES. It's hard to get a good flying undead mount, whereas good ground based skeleton fodder is dime a dozen.

[Seffbasilisk]

Zombie dragons make excellent armored troop carriers.

However, I want you to consider this one point for skeletal dragons.

Swallow Whole.

[Madara]

Zombie still wins even with crappy breath weapon, IT FLIES. It's hard to get a good flying undead mount, whereas good ground based skeleton fodder is dime a dozen.

True. Still, I prefer Genies as my flying archers.

[Igneel]

Zombie dragons make excellent armored troop carriers.

However, I want you to consider this one point for skeletal dragons.

Swallow Whole.

I have no idea why this makes me smile so much considering the image of a dragon skeleton trying to swallow an enemy and he just falls out through the ribs. :smallsmile: