52 Constitution help

[mucco]

Hi guys, I'm looking for a way to have a 52 in Constitution by level 20. This should be achieved without any class feature, so basically only race + items + ability score increases every four HD. No infinite loops and no use of spells, even buying spellcasting from NPCs - stay on the sane side of the game, please.

I can't use more than 4 LA. Not tanking Cha is a bonus, if you feel that the challenge is too easy. Thanks in advance!

If this proves to be too hard, 48 or 50 Con would suit me as well.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I assume you're going to start with 18 Con. So the challenge is to get +34 Con in 20 levels. Wow. Okay, let's see what I can come up with.

A dragonborn (RotD) mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) half-minotaur (Dragon 313) feral (Savage Species) draconic (RotD) mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) receives a total of +16 to its Constitution score for +4 LA. Breaks down like this:

Dragonborn (Template. +2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (Template. +4 Con, +1 LA)
Half-Minotaur (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Feral (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Draconic (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Mongrelfolk (Race. +4 Con, no LA)

So with an initial 18, that's 34 Con at level 1. Then you get +5 from your 5 level up bonuses, a +5 inherent bonus with a Manual of Gainful Exercise or whichever the one that gives you Con is, and a +6 amulet of health. That's a total of 50 Constitution. For the extra +2, perhaps there's another LA 0 template that I'm not thinking of.

[The-Mage-King]

...Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk to start, maybe? If you can get the fluff to work out, of course. +16 from race/templates to start...


Apply it in the right order (lolth-touched Mongrelfolk-->Dragonborn Lolth-touched blah-->Blahblahblah Mineral Warrior).

Only LA +2! Slap Draconic and something else that gives +con, and you're good to go!


EDIT: Ha! Mine beats yours by 4!

[SowZ]

Well, I assume you're going to start with 18 Con. So the challenge is to get +34 Con in 20 levels. Wow. Okay, let's see what I can come up with.

A dragonborn (RotD) mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) half-minotaur (Dragon 313) feral (Savage Species) draconic (RotD) mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) receives a total of +16 to its Constitution score for +4 LA. Breaks down like this:

Dragonborn (Template. +2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (Template. +4 Con, +1 LA)
Half-Minotaur (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Feral (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Draconic (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Mongrelfolk (Race. +4 Con, no LA)

So with an initial 18, that's 34 Con at level 1. Then you get +5 from your 5 level up bonuses, a +5 inherent bonus with a Manual of Gainful Exercise or whichever the one that gives you Con is, and a +6 amulet of health. That's a total of 50 Constitution. For the extra +2, perhaps there's another LA 0 template that I'm not thinking of.

Well, the OP should clarify. Is the 4 LA free or does it subtract from levels?

Also, Ice or Ooze Paragenasi is a better +1 Template for Con than Feral since it is +4 Con.

[Igneel]

Well, I assume you're going to start with 18 Con. So the challenge is to get +34 Con in 20 levels. Wow. Okay, let's see what I can come up with.

A dragonborn (RotD) mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) half-minotaur (Dragon 313) feral (Savage Species) draconic (RotD) mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) receives a total of +16 to its Constitution score for +4 LA. Breaks down like this:

Dragonborn (Template. +2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (Template. +4 Con, +1 LA)
Half-Minotaur (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Feral (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Draconic (Template. +2 Con, +1 LA)
Mongrelfolk (Race. +4 Con, no LA)

So with an initial 18, that's 34 Con at level 1. Then you get +5 from your 5 level up bonuses, a +5 inherent bonus with a Manual of Gainful Exercise or whichever the one that gives you Con is, and a +6 amulet of health. That's a total of 50 Constitution. For the extra +2, perhaps there's another LA 0 template that I'm not thinking of.

White Dragonspawn from Dragonlance gives +2 Con/Dex for a +1 LA.
Lloth-touched from MMIV gives +6 Str/Con for a +1 LA, but probably doesn't work with Dragonborn as your alignment is turned CE.

So a Mongrelfolk, Mineral Warrior, Lloth-touched, Draconic, Half-Minotaur (I suppose it doesn't really matter what templates, just picking ones that at least do minimum penalties to Cha with max Con) starting with a base 18, +5 from levels, +5 inherent, and +6 enhancement get 52 Con and a -4 penalty to Cha from Mongrelfolk (Mineral Warrior is cancelled out by Draconic).

Edit: Ninja'd :smalltongue:

Edit II: Willing Deformity feat + Deformity (Obese) feat for +2 Con, -2 Dex.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Have you considered Grafts? They aren't spells nor class features, so it should be fine.

[killianh]

If you were allowed an LA of 6 I would suggest just playing a Shambling Mound. 8 monster hit die leaving you with 12 class level, but it gains 1d4 Con every time it's hit with electric damage. have a shop craft a cursed electric sword that damages you when you use it and you have infinite con lost at a rate of 1 point per hour.

Otherwise I think the above advise is probably the best you'll get

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mongrelfolk, Dragonborn, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, afflicted Werebear:
LA +4, Con +24

Starting out with Con 18, that gives you a 42. With +5 for levels and a +5 Inherent bonus, you have 52. Add on a +6 Enhancement bonus from an item and you've got 58.

[tyckspoon]

...Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk to start, maybe? If you can get the fluff to work out, of course. +16 from race/templates to start...


Apply it in the right order (lolth-touched Mongrelfolk-->Dragonborn Lolth-touched blah-->Blahblahblah Mineral Warrior).

Only LA +2! Slap Draconic and something else that gives +con, and you're good to go!


EDIT: Ha! Mine beats yours by 4!

Except that you *really* shouldn't have both Lolth-Touched and Dragonborn; Lolth-Touched forces you to be Chaotic Evil, and Dragonborn have to be good. It's not strictly mechanically impossible, but it is a huge flavor conflict.

Con suggestion: If you *really* just want All The Con-
3 levels of Stoneblessed (Dwarf) gets you +2 Con and qualifies you for the Dwarf Racial Paragon class, which gives you another +2 Con after 3 levels of it.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Con suggestion: If you *really* just want All The Con-
3 levels of Stoneblessed (Dwarf) gets you +2 Con and qualifies you for the Dwarf Racial Paragon class, which gives you another +2 Con after 3 levels of it.No class features allowed

[Morph Bark]

Dragonborn (+2 Con, no LA)
Arctic (+2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (+4 Con, +1 LA)
Lolth-Touched (+6 Con, +1 LA)
Incarnate Construct (-2 LA)
Warforged (+2 Con, no LA)


+16 Con, no LA. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Dragonborn (+2 Con, no LA)
Arctic (+2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (+4 Con, +1 LA)
Lolth-Touched (+6 Con, +1 LA)
Incarnate Construct (-2 LA)
Warforged (+2 Con, no LA)


+16 Con, no LA. :smalltongue:

At a minimum, Mineral Warrior cannot be applied before Incarnate Construct, as it is not a valid template for a Construct. The rest of it works (I'm assuming Arctic is valid on a Warforged, anyway, as I don't have the source for that particular), although you still have the extreme fluff conflict between Dragonborn and Lolth-Touched.

Edit-Note: If you're using the Incarnate Construct trick anyway, you can sub in Draconic for Dragonborn to resolve the fluff conflict and get the same end result in Con.

[Zaranthan]

You can apply the Half-Dragon template to something that's already a Half-Dragon. 18 base, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement = 29 before templates. Get twelve different dragons to bang each other's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren, and 36 LA later, you've got 53 Con.

I never said it was a good idea, but just think of how pretty all those different colored scales would be.

[Seatbelt]

Nobody thought to ask why. I'm just curious what kind of build needs 52 con?

[danzibr]

Dragonborn (+2 Con, no LA)
Arctic (+2 Con, no LA)
Mineral Warrior (+4 Con, +1 LA)
Lolth-Touched (+6 Con, +1 LA)
Incarnate Construct (-2 LA)
Warforged (+2 Con, no LA)


+16 Con, no LA. :smalltongue:
I was wondering when someone would say Arctic.

[The-Mage-King]

Except that you *really* shouldn't have both Lolth-Touched and Dragonborn; Lolth-Touched forces you to be Chaotic Evil, and Dragonborn have to be good. It's not strictly mechanically impossible, but it is a huge flavor conflict.


Eh. There's ways around that. Repenting, Mind Rape Sanctify the Wicked, et all.

[Igneel]

Eh. There's ways around that. Repenting, Mind Rape Sanctify the Wicked, et all.

But then, would they truly be Lolth-Touched? Fluff-wise its supposed to be a 'gift' granted to a non-good, non-lawful, corporeal living creature by Lolth herself. Many ways like how Dragonborn is a gift to neutral/good characters that wish to combat against Tiamat/evil, save Dragonborn has a mechanic for loosing the template.

[The-Mage-King]

But then, would they truly be Lolth-Touched? Fluff-wise its supposed to be a 'gift' granted to a non-good, non-lawful, corporeal living creature by Lolth herself. Many ways like how Dragonborn is a gift to neutral/good characters that wish to combat against Tiamat/evil, save Dragonborn has a mechanic for loosing the template.

Do they lose the template for changing alignment?


No? Then my point stands.

[Lans]

There is a vile feat that adds +2 to constitution.

[Spuddles]

Half minotaur actually gives +6 con. If it makes you large, you can add half ogre for no increase in LA.

[Kerilstrasz]

Im not sure if you want feats here but you dont say you dont.. so if you are not too attached to your matterial possesion maybe vow of poverty for a
Ability score enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2 by lvl 19 among other beautifull things (BoED pg 31)

[Chronos]

Im not sure if you want feats here but you dont say you dont.. so if you are not too attached to your matterial possesion maybe vow of poverty for a
Ability score enhancement +8/+6/+4/+2 by lvl 19 among other beautifull things (BoED pg 31)That'd be a net of -3 to his Con. An enhancement item and a tome between them are +11, compared to the +8 from VoP. As usual, trying to give up items to gain power just doesn't work.

And I'm really, really curious what set of constraints led the OP to this. Why are magic items allowed, but not spells? Why LA, but no class features? Why 52 specifically? If we knew the reason for the constraints, we might be able to find other ways around them.

[Rubik]

If items are allowed, a scroll of Gate will let you pull in a hagunemnon, a power stone of Fusion will let you bond with it, and a power stone of Astral Seed will let you keep the hagunemnon's abilities (including its stats) permanently (though you'll need to commit seppuku after). So that's 39 Con as a base right there.

Then the standard +5 levels +5 tome and +6 headband for a 55 Con.

Some rings of 3 wishes or candles of invocation will let you add some templates onto your character, according to Savage Species.

And all of it's through items.

[LordDrakulzen]

That'd be a net of -3 to his Con. An enhancement item and a tome between them are +11, compared to the +8 from VoP. As usual, trying to give up items to gain power just doesn't work.

He can take VoP at level 18, and get all the bonuses for stat increases immediately. He can have read the Tome +5 prior to that, thus giving him a +13 to his constitution.

VoP simply means from the time you take the feat you cannot own anything, nothing saying you had nothing up til that point.

[Andion Isurand]

Blooded template adds +4 con for +1 LA.

Don't forget about Silthilar Bones graft for +2 con.

Obese deformity feat for +2 Deformity bonus to Con

[deuxhero]

Not tanking Cha is a bonus,



:smallconfused:

How's that a "bonus" for a constitution optimizer? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

[The Random NPC]

:smallconfused:

How's that a "bonus" for a constitution optimizer? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

You know, judging by how the comic is going, he didn't dump Cha...

[moritheil]

You can apply the Half-Dragon template to something that's already a Half-Dragon. 18 base, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement = 29 before templates. Get twelve different dragons to bang each other's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren, and 36 LA later, you've got 53 Con.

I never said it was a good idea, but just think of how pretty all those different colored scales would be.

I like your style. :smallbiggrin: It's certainly not within the requested LA of +4, but it shows a willingness to think differently.

[mucco]

If items are allowed, a scroll of Gate will let you pull in a hagunemnon, a power stone of Fusion will let you bond with it, and a power stone of Astral Seed will let you keep the hagunemnon's abilities (including its stats) permanently (though you'll need to commit seppuku after). So that's 39 Con as a base right there.

Then the standard +5 levels +5 tome and +6 headband for a 55 Con.

Some rings of 3 wishes or candles of invocation will let you add some templates onto your character, according to Savage Species.

And all of it's through items.

Yup, exactly the reason I've banned spells from the available sources. At this point, might as well get NI Constitution from my point of view.

The reasons for this request are the following: I've been toying with the homebrew class I've made (in signature), and I was wondering if I could max out one of its blends (it's a, uh, class feature) which requires at the bare minimum a +19 Con modifier. The class has no spellcasting and it requires 16 levels to get to the class feature I want, so that's why the maximum +4 LA. I guess one could dip around for 4 levels but I don't like dipping. Not tanking Cha is a bonus because the class uses Cha.

So far not liking the cheap cheese of arctic+dragonborn (:p), not too happy with DrM in general, but I think I'm in love with the incarnate construct quality SS cheese. The Deformity feats are a good idea too.

It appears a Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged with Willing Deformity feats hits 48 at LA 0, with only a -2 penalty to Cha. Good start.

[Answerer]

OK, I'm curious: what makes you consider Arctic+Dragonborn cheesier than Incarnate Construct? Negative LA is... kind of absurd.

[Hirax]

Savage Species in general is way more dubious an Dragon imo.

[tyckspoon]

It appears a Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged with Willing Deformity feats hits 48 at LA 0, with only a -2 penalty to Cha. Good start.

1 LA and -4 Cha; Mineral Warrior has to be acquired after Incarnate Construct, so the Incarnate Construct reduction can't remove that LA. And Mineral Warrior also carries a Cha penalty in addition to the racial one for Warforged.

[Alleine]

Depending on the availability of wealth, the Sithilar Bones graft in Lords of Madness provides an untyped +2 con for and unnecessarily pricey 110,000 gp.

[mucco]

OK, I'm curious: what makes you consider Arctic+Dragonborn cheesier than Incarnate Construct? Negative LA is... kind of absurd.

I don't consider it cheesier. It's just that you see arctic and dragonborn everywhere, it's boring. Incarnate Construct is news to me and it's quite stupid so, bonus points for that. :smallbiggrin:

You could also take it away since, as tyckspoon points out, it only removes 1 LA.

[Answerer]

Depending on the availability of wealth, the Sithilar Bones graft in Lords of Madness provides an untyped +2 con for and unnecessarily pricey 110,000 gp.
The Silthilar grafts are all preposterously overpriced. The Healing Nodules might be the single most overpriced item in the game (Fast Healing 3 for, IIRC, quite a bit more than that).

[moritheil]

You could also take it away since, as tyckspoon points out, it only removes 1 LA.

If you mean Incarnate Construct, it's -2 LA.

[Tulya]

Half minotaur actually gives +6 con. If it makes you large, you can add half ogre for no increase in LA.

For those wondering where the extra +4 comes from:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

Half-minotaur's size increase explicitly includes those adjustments if your size changes. It's from Dragon Magazine, though, if that could be a problem.

[tyckspoon]

If you mean Incarnate Construct, it's -2 LA.

Specifically, it's an acquired template with -2 LA (limit 0.) If you want to make use of it fully, the templates you want to counter with it have to be in place *before* you become Incarnated, which means they have to be applicable to (Living) Constructs. Mineral Warrior is not, so you have to become a Mineral Warrior after Incarnate Construct changes your type to be a valid subject.

The order of the LAs is:
Lolth-Touched +1 LA -> Incarnate Construct -2 (floor 0) = -> Mineral Warrior +1 again. You don't get to 'bank' the other -1 from Incarnate.