Stomped by "mundane archery" issue at 120'+ range...

[Red_Dog]

Hello all. I came a cross an issue in building some NPCs.

I am trying to make elven archers. They have 8 lvls to spent, and the goal is to be "eefective"[do 20-40 dmg] at 120' in the forest.

Now "in the forest" isn't an issue, when one got a +1 seeking[most likely bone bow, not to "elvish", but if you think about still pretty "all natural"] bow and a stack of force arrows just in case.

The issue is the damage... A squad member should produce effective 20-40 dmg per round to be an ok NPC in this campaign. The elf's shtick here will be ability to do this at 120'+ range. The range in which skirmish, sneak attack[too much issues to get sniper's eye] and other things fail to work. And dex doesn't translate into damage like str does, and pumping str isn't really easy for elves or anyone who needs other things but str.

My current ideas consist of=>

Wild Runner "adrenaline archer". Going barbarian 1-2/ranger3-4/wild runner 3 to get +10 dex +6Str [or maybe drop ferocity for other form of rage?] but basically spike dex & str thru a frenzy like state.
For feats only needing extra rage & proficiency with a bone bow. Pointblank precises can be taken. This build also moves at an impressive speed of 50-60ft per move action... So they can leg it if needed.
Issues
Uber high dex.. what armor will contain this and be useful?O_o
Can't hide and do this at same time. only prior and after.
Definitely will look like a nation of very very twitchy people heh.

What will the damage be? on a 14-16 elf buffed with bull str to 18-20 hulking out gaining 24-26 str means +7/+8 dmg. +1 from ench, +2 at most from weapon spec[even if gotten at all] +10/+11 at most. Maybe an attack crystal? With haste that's 3 shots per round... not much. But barley at line. Their accuracy however will be pretty great for their level.

This is definitely no "iconic ranger"...

A second idea was to abuse wand of Sniper's Shot that would be in wand chamber of a bow. This idea is closer to reality, but does need people to be flat footed. I suppose shooting from cover accomplishes that? Still such full attack would have about 3d6X3 of sneak attack... not too great, and precises damage is often stomped. Plus, they will need to make these wands in mass production[not too hard].
*Build would look like this=> Rouge 3/Sneack attack fighter 3/Ranger 2[obviously leapfrogging this progression]. Has 4d6 sneack attack, 4 feats, and can use wands without UMD. Perhaphs making Rouge 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Exotic weapon master 1 would also fit the bill, but far less sneak attack.*

===============================================>

So gentlemen and ladies? Any ideas on how to build a ranger that doesn't rely on skirmish[Sniper's Shot abuse is allowed], being a cleric, a soul bow or psychic warrior? In other words "mundane" = ]

Thanks for reading! ^^

[Vizzerdrix]

Here. This should have something useful.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194

[Red_Dog]

Thx ^^ It seems at first glance that they use too much DWS... which I won't be using in my game at all[3.0 yadda yadda]. But I'll read it over ^^.

P.S. Forgot to mention to all, yes I read swifthunter, archery and ranger handbooks = ]

[KillianHawkeye]

Take the Rapid Shot feat for an extra attack.

If you're going Barbarian, the whirling frenzy variant grants also grants an extra attack and I believe works with archery.

[Red_Dog]

They have a "forest guide"[caster] with them, he can provide things like haste and mass bull str[as far as I remember].

[Silva Stormrage]

Now, do these archers need to be LEVEL 8 or CR 8? Because if they just need to be CR 8 just make em level 16 warriors (NPC class is half cr). They have 4 attacks (5 with rapid shot). And have a pretty good plus to hit and hp. It's a very simple way of making effective melee troops without resorting to ToB (Which for npc's I find it a bit time consuming if there are a lot of them)

[Toliudar]

Knowledge Devotion will add 2-5 to your damage fairly reliably, and it works at any distance. Having Favoured Enemy - Human is often a help as well.

Since these are NPC's anyway, could you just handwave an ability that's like the swashbuckler Insightful Strike, but for bows?

There are a number of homebrewed (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5126.5) martial disciplines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193295) for ranged combatants that you could use.

[Jeraa]

Now, do these archers need to be LEVEL 8 or CR 8? Because if they just need to be CR 8 just make em level 16 warriors (NPC class is half cr). They have 4 attacks (5 with rapid shot). And have a pretty good plus to hit and hp. It's a very simple way of making effective melee troops without resorting to ToB (Which for npc's I find it a bit time consuming if there are a lot of them)

Thats not true. NPC classes only count as 1/2 a CR until you have a number of levels in NPC classes equal to your hit dice. After that, each level of an NPC class adds +1 to the CR.


Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.


Since NPC classes (see Chapter 5: Campaigns) are weaker than PC classes, levels in an NPC class contribute less to a creature’s CR than levels in a PC class. For an NPC with an NPC class, determine her Challenge Rating as if she had a PC class with one less level. For a creature with monster levels in addition to NPC class levels, add the NPC levels –1 to the creature’s base CR (always adding at least 1).

A level 16 warrior elf is a CR 15 creature.

[demigodus]

have them travel with a bard instead of a wizard. The bard can optimize inspire courage, and pick up lingering song and dragonfire inspiration. Cast regular inspire courage first round, dragonfire inspiration second round. The bonus damage should easily be in the 20~40 damage per hit range, and they give a bonus on to-hit as well. Can also drop haste on the archers for more attacks.

Sadly this would likely require non-elven bards. Or drop dragonfire inspiration, and you can go with elven bards. Should still be able to give a pretty big buff to damage with each shot.

[gbprime]

If they were 9th level, I'd suggest Mystic Ranger all the way.

1 - Education
3 - Knowledge Devotion
6 - Sword of the Arcane Order
9 - Arcane Strike

You've got 4th level spells to power Arcane Strike, which you can use to enhance arrow hit/damage when using an Elvencraft Longbow. And you can light off a Foebane spell whenever needed.

Let's give them a +1 Seeking Elvencraft Longbow (+3 str). If we assume +3 from Knowledge Devotion and using a 3rd level spell slot to power their attacks...

+18/+18/+13 for 1d8+3d4+7 each (avg 19 per shot)

with Foebane and against a favored enemy, this rises to

+26/+26/+21 for 1d8+3d4+2d6+15 each (avg 34 per shot)

And then you don't have to worry about precision damage at all. :smallamused:

[Vizzerdrix]

You've got 4th level spells to power Arcane Strike, which you can use to enhance arrow hit/damage when using an Elvencraft Longbow. And you can light off a Foebane spell whenever needed.


Arcane Strike is melee attacks only.

Didn't Pathfinder have a power attack feat for ranged combat?

[gbprime]

Arcane Strike is melee attacks only.

No, read it again. Arcane Strike is melee WEAPONS only. That's why you use an Elvencraft longbow. It counts as both a longbow and a quarterstaff.

The feat also does not specify that it adds only to melee attacks, it just says "attacks". So the bonus applies to any attack the weapon can make.

[Madeiner]

Are these disposable nameless npcs that will die or disappear by the end of the battle?

Then, they each do 1d8+5 damage per attack, and they make 3 attacks per round and have an attack roll bonus that will hit the best AC in the party about 70% of the times if he is not a tank, or 40% if he is.
Some or all of them have a special ability that adds +10 damage to the first arrow when a specified battlefield condition is verified. For example: they are hidden in a tree.

Their commander has a special power that allows him to, once every 2 rounds, shoot an arrow at the feet of a target, and entangle him like an "hold person" or entangle spell. This is a supernatural ability.

If the PCs have ability that target ability scores, then they have 17 dex, and around 13 in everything else.
Give them some sensible will saves. 4/9/4 looks ok.

Total time to create a squads of these? 10 minutes, instead of hours to build "legal" npcs
Will the PC notice anything amiss? Probably not.

[kpenguin]

Hunter's Mercy lets you get an automatic critical hit. If these are snipers at long range, then they should be able to hide, cast, and then shoot quite easily.

You could also take advantage of distance penalties to spot to have them hide again, cast, and shoot. At a long enough range, say 200 feet, the distance penalties for spot cancel out the sniping penalties for hide. Furthermore, at long enough range, the PCs might have a helluva time even getting to the snipers through forest and underbrush, giving the snipers more time to keep making hide checks or move away and then continue shooting.

After an initial battle, your rangers should be playing a battle of attrition, using the terrain to keep the PCs from advancing quickly on them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ranger 2/ Fighter 6, Hidden Talent: Chameleon, Track, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Knowledge Devotion, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, Woodland Archer, Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Each should have a +1 Elvencraft Composite Longbow with an appropriate Str allowance, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. It should have three wand chambers, for a partially charged Wand of Camouflage, a partially charged Dorje of Chameleon, and a partially charged Wand of Swift Haste.

They can sneak up on their opponents with +20 to hide, Swift Haste and Rapid Shot for four attacks, dealing 1d8+5+Str per attack with 130 ft. increments and Woodland Archer benefits.

[Eldariel]

Ranger 2/ Fighter 6, Hidden Talent: Chameleon, Track, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Knowledge Devotion, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Specialization, Woodland Archer, Ranged Weapon Mastery.

Each should have a +1 Elvencraft Composite Longbow with an appropriate Str allowance, which counts as both a quarterstaff and a longbow. It should have three wand chambers, for a partially charged Wand of Camouflage, a partially charged Dorje of Chameleon, and a partially charged Wand of Swift Haste.

They can sneak up on their opponents with +20 to hide, Swift Haste and Rapid Shot for four attacks, dealing 1d8+5+Str per attack with 130 ft. increments and Woodland Archer benefits.

I'd consider adjusting this for Barbarian 1, for Whirling Frenzy in combination with potential Extra Rage over Ranger 2; the Hidden Talent feat can probably be spared here honestly with the buffer alongside them. Of course, it's really unfortunate it's 8 and not 9 HD we're working with here since the only way to get Ranged Weapon Mastery in 8 HD is to take 4 Fighter-levels before 8 and then get a bonus feat on 8 while maintaining full BAB. And the list of full BAB classes with open bonus feats on early levels contains Fighter and that's about it.

Well, Ranger-or-Barbarian 1/Warblade 5/Fighter 2 would also work but meh, it wouldn't really be much better. 8 levels is about infinitely more restrictive than 9, here :smallbiggrin:

[Red_Dog]

Thx for all the replies gentlemen ^^

>gbprime
Epic "reading the RAW side of things" buddy, *claps slowly* that's pretty damn neat ^^

>demigodus
They are accompanied by an arcane hierophant of lvl12. Not the best druid can do, but they are buff and taxy machines with 1-2 arc lighting prepped for close calls.

>Madeiner
Its true, that they are rank-n-file, but besides me always trying to play by the same rules as PCs, I also like to make every faction potential ally or enemy, so PCs have difficult choices[kind of a theme of the campaign really heh]. Judging so far, things can go either way. So we'll see Thx for replys man ^^.

>Biffoniacus_Furiou
I keep on forgetting, does Haste stack with Rapid Shot?

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After some consideration, I decided to discard the Coffee Elf idea. Its beyond fun to see an elf hulk out, and if I ever get a chance, I am so playing one[child of shadows for concealment, hit-n-run & shadowblade for double dex as dmg, and pounce from wild runner... and probably some shock trooper there... Than, chug potion of Haste & Scream "I'm incredibly focused right now!!!" strap on time stop boots and have hysterical fun ^^ Also warship coffee tree as your barbarian totem^^], but as NPCs, these guys don't fit the profile too much.

My current build goes like this =>

Rouge[wilderness] 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 3
[1Rouge+1F+1Rng+1F+1Rng+1Rouge+1Rng+1Rouge]
Feats[5]=>Point Blank, Precise, Far Shot, That's where I have 2 feats to spent. Able Archer for +2 to hit? Exotic[great bow] for strongarm? Plunging Shot? Knowledge Devotion & Improved Favorite Enemy[human or chaotic evil outsider as they are the main perpetrators]?Kind of lost here for now heh ^^.
*Wasn't able to fit Improved Rapidshot due to blasted BAB reqs for manyshot, its doesn't matter really. I can get it in ranger 4/fighter 4, but no sneak attack mans not worth it*
Skills=>Max Survival, Hide, Move, Spot, Listen, UMD. We'll see about the rest. I suppose Knowledge Devotion?
Swag=>
+1 Seeking Composite Bow[or Great Composite Bow] w/ a stack of force arrows, wand chamber for Sniper's Shot & a Frost Attack Crystal.
Strong Arm Bracers[should I? this WILL boost dmg[5->8].. but will it look too silly?]
Belt of agile athlete.
Eyes of Truth & Cronocharm of Celestial wanderer.
Cloak of Elvinkind
Buffs=>
Mass camouflage [casting 2 extended pretty much cover an 8 hour shift] stacks w/ cloak
Cat's Grace potion before fight
Haste before fight

So... Throwing 3 attaks at highest BAB & one at -5, d10+2d6+d6+Str+1ench+Favorite at 190ft+ seems adequate? what do you guys think? What can I fill 2 feats with? How about any items?
*So this was one time consuming post lol*

P.S.
Why didn't I go with [B]Hunter's Mercy sniping? The spell out of SpC is frankly fantastic. Yes it delays you, but it costs 750gp for 50 uses, and if one uses it with things like Cragtop Archer, from some odd 1200+feet thru a third eye and extraordinary concentration and psionic shot[which crits]... it definitely does look like some one just go shot with a 50cal. Again, a build I know really want to play ^^... That all awesomeness being said, no one in elven community can make these wands, as there are no high lvl rangers or archivists. So logistics for this doesn't work, and that is very important for this campaign.

P.S.2. Couple questions I forgot->
>Can one make a full attack in a surprise round if there is no way an enemy sees you? As in you are 100+ feet away in a tree hidden and camouflaged and being very still until they attack?
>Can I get a sneak attack of when I have cover, and they don't due to seeking bow being amazing?
>What are the prices for magic ammunition? Couldn't find the breack down. I know its cheaper than an actual weapon.

[tyckspoon]

P.S.
Why didn't I go with Hunter's Mercy sniping? The spell out of SpC is frankly fantastic. Yes it delays you, but it costs 750gp for 50 uses, and if one uses it with things like Cragtop Archer, from some odd 1200+feet thru a third eye and extraordinary concentration and psionic shot[which crits]... it definitely does look like some one just go shot with a 50cal. Again, a build I know really want to play ^^... That all awesomeness being said, no one in elven community can make these wands, as there are no high lvl rangers or archivists. So logistics for this doesn't work, and that is very important for this campaign.

P.S.2. Couple questions I forgot->
>Can one make a full attack in a surprise round if there is no way an enemy sees you? As in you are 100+ feet away in a tree hidden and camouflaged and being very still until they attack?
>Can I get a sneak attack of when I have cover, and they don't due to seeking bow being amazing?
>What are the prices for magic ammunition? Couldn't find the breack down. I know its cheaper than an actual weapon.

You can collaborate on magic items to cover the requirements; if you have any Rangers of level 4 or higher, they can provide the spell while whoever is making those wands of Sniper's Shot provides the feat. You could also set up a crafty-Ranger or two to do the specific useful Ranger-only spells; use Practiced Spellcaster to make up the CL gap and take Craft Wand.

Surprise Rounds: No. A Surprise Round does not let you take a Full Attack action.

Magic Ammo: Ammunition is priced the same as standard weapons. The difference is that where that cost gets you one sword or bow or whatever, you get 50 pieces of ammunition, which makes this very efficient for kitting out things like your archery combat patrols, since you can pay once and then give 10 archers 5 special-use/big threat arrows apiece. (Say, give them all a few +1 Wounding arrows. Focused volleys of 20-odd Con-damaging arrows = so much pain.)

Edit: It follows that an individual piece of ammunition only costs 1/50 the price of a standard weapon with the same enhancements, but I don't know if it's actually said anywhere that you can make them in singles; the crafting rules imply that they're always created in those bundles of 50.

[moritheil]

>Can I get a sneak attack of when I have cover, and they don't due to seeking bow being amazing?

d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack) has this rules text and more. It may be also able to answer a couple of those other straight rules questions where you don't need interpretation.


Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

[Red_Dog]

>tyckspoon

Hmmm... might think over that crafting comment.... as far as spell being provided that is.

Also thx for magic ammo bit! ^^ I was looking all over the DMG for that.

>moritheil

I have both DMG & rule compendium [which I am currently scourging for an answer]. Also, a wand of Sniper's Shot is what the build is built around which removes the pesky 30' limit from the sneak attack.

Basically I though, that cover was pretty damn similar in all respects to concealment. But I can't find a line that it lets you sneak attack without making a "Sniping Maneuver" using cover which I am not going for. It seems to have the same mechanic to it [concealment lets you sneak attack, as the opponent doesn't know what you are doing. I though cover works similarly in this respect].

Sniping to my understanding lets you also stay hidden after making a sneak attack so enemy doesn't know even a square where attack came from. I am fine with enemy knowing their square, I just want a sneak attack trigger.

Would a carefully crafted[sculpted] fog cloud or Obscuring Mist help this situation? As in, the elf standing in it, so he can be seen but gaining concealment and sneak attacking away? How about a silent Image mascaraeding as fog cloud? The enemy doesn't get a save until they actually touch it? And since it looks just like a fog cloud they wouldn't know to "attack it" at range to interact with it?

[tyckspoon]

Having cover/concealment does not allow you to Sneak Attack. Denying Dexterity to your enemy allows you to Sneak Attack. The most common ways to deny Dexterity are: attacking a Flat-footed foe (anybody who hasn't acted yet, which is why gaining an uncontested Surprise Round/winning Initiative are important for ranged Sneak Attackers) and attacking while visually undetectable- ie, being Invisible or successfully Hiding. Hiding is where the concealment comes into play, because you cannot Hide unless you have concealment.

Relevant: It's a bit of a rules swamp to sort through, but you don't have to use Sniping to Hide while attacking. You can just.. Hide while attacking. The penalty to the check is the same; the main difference is that Hiding as part of your attack action(s) lets you make a Full Attack, while Sniping will restrict you to a single attack.

[ericgrau]

The other thing with precision damage is that it tends to come with medium BAB which negates most of your extra damage when you have trouble hitting. This would be easier with PC wealth but I'll see what I can do with NPC wealth. 15+1(levels)+2(elf)=18 dex. 14 str. Rapid shot for 3 attacks, ranged weapon mastery for +4 damage. Improved rapid shot and greater weapon focus so you almost always hit. 1d8+2+4+1(+1 bow)=11.5 damage per arrow. Improved crit plus normal crits add +20% damage on average so 13.8 damage per arrow. I haven't looked up monster AC but I'm betting even the secondary attack almost always hits. That comes to about 37 damage per round. About 40 if he's a wood elf. In a lower optimization gaming group you might skip the auto-hit attack bonus feats and still manage 25 damage per round.

This was surprisingly easy even with fighter 8. Sometimes I think optimizers over-think things.

Under the right circumstances bane arrows can add an extra ~25 damage per round. They're 160 gp a pop, 480 gp per round, but worth it for major foes if you know what type to expect. You could also dip a level of wizard or sorcerer for wand and scroll use if you have any favorite spells. Don't forget arrows of various metal types to get around DR. With nothing but a +1 composite bow used above I left a lot of money to spend.

[Eldariel]

The other thing with precision damage is that it tends to come with medium BAB which negates most of your extra damage when you have trouble hitting. This would be easier with PC wealth but I'll see what I can do with NPC wealth. 15+1(levels)+2(elf)=18 dex. 14 str. Rapid shot for 3 attacks, ranged weapon mastery for +4 damage. Improved rapid shot and greater weapon focus so you almost always hit. 1d8+2+4+1(+1 bow)=11.5 damage per arrow. Improved crit plus normal crits add +20% damage on average so 13.8 damage per arrow. I haven't looked up monster AC but I'm betting even the secondary attack almost always hits. That comes to about 37 damage per round. About 40 if he's a wood elf. In a lower optimization gaming group you might skip the auto-hit attack bonus feats and still manage 25 damage per round.

This was surprisingly easy even with fighter 8. Sometimes I think optimizers over-think things.

Under the right circumstances bane arrows can add an extra ~25 damage per round. They're 160 gp a pop, 480 gp per round, but worth it for major foes if you know what type to expect. You could also dip a level of wizard or sorcerer for wand and scroll use if you have any favorite spells. Don't forget arrows of various metal types to get around DR. With nothing but a +1 composite bow used above I left a lot of money to spend.

Well, GWF, RWM & Imp. Crit could only be taken on level 8 so you can't have all of those on a Fighter 8. Manyshot can also only be taken on 6+ so Improved Rapid Shot has to be 6 or 8 but that would work with the two feats on 6; still, the high-end feat slots are an issue here (same reason you can't really multiclass more than 2 levels off Fighter while maintaining RWM). Either way, yeah, even Fighter 8 could do it but an Elf Archer without in-class ranks in Hide/Spot is kinda silly.

[moritheil]

>moritheil

I have both DMG & rule compendium [which I am currently scourging for an answer]. Also, a wand of Sniper's Shot is what the build is built around which removes the pesky 30' limit from the sneak attack.

I apologize for missing that.


Basically I though, that cover was pretty damn similar in all respects to concealment. But I can't find a line that it lets you sneak attack without making a "Sniping Maneuver" using cover which I am not going for. It seems to have the same mechanic to it [concealment lets you sneak attack, as the opponent doesn't know what you are doing. I though cover works similarly in this respect].

I think cover generally handles the AC / ref saves aspect of things, and concealment handles the hiding/miss chance side. That said,


Cover and Hide Checks
You can use cover to make a Hide check. Without cover, you usually need concealment to make a Hide check.


Sniping to my understanding lets you also stay hidden after making a sneak attack so enemy doesn't know even a square where attack came from. I am fine with enemy knowing their square, I just want a sneak attack trigger.

Would a carefully crafted[sculpted] fog cloud or Obscuring Mist help this situation? As in, the elf standing in it, so he can be seen but gaining concealment and sneak attacking away? How about a silent Image mascaraeding as fog cloud? The enemy doesn't get a save until they actually touch it? And since it looks just like a fog cloud they wouldn't know to "attack it" at range to interact with it?

This reminds me of the illusory wall shenanigans my group used to pull with Silent Image. Good times. Yes, you can use magic to get around the problem; however, as you suggested, illusions work better than actual mist (unless you're using Mithralmist armor, but I doubt you want to issue that to all your elves.)

[ericgrau]

Well, GWF, RWM & Imp. Crit could only be taken on level 8 so you can't have all of those on a Fighter 8. Manyshot can also only be taken on 6+ so Improved Rapid Shot has to be 6 or 8 but that would work with the two feats on 6; still, the high-end feat slots are an issue here (same reason you can't really multiclass more than 2 levels off Fighter while maintaining RWM). Either way, yeah, even Fighter 8 could do it but an Elf Archer without in-class ranks in Hide/Spot is kinda silly.

Ah I didn't look into the details since I've done similar things before. Ya exactly level 8 is an annoying level. Ranged weapon mastery is the main one so the other two can wait. You can grab a feat per level after that. Even though you need 8 BAB, you only need 4 levels of fighter for ranged weapon mastery. At least 2 levels of ranger is good for favored enemy and rapid shot anyway, and gets you some skills.

[Eldariel]

Ah I didn't look into the details since I've done similar things before. Ya exactly level 8 is an annoying level. But at least you can grab a feat per level after that. Ranged weapon mastery is the main one so the other two can wait. Even though you need 8 BAB, you only need 4 levels of fighter for ranged weapon mastery. At least 2 levels of ranger is good for favored enemy and rapid shot anyway, and gets you some skills.

Indeed; Fighter 6/X 2 is the only really workable shell with only 8 levels here, and everything has to be full BAB. This changes to Fighter 4/X 5 with 9 levels since you can pick up RWM on 9 without lining a Fighter bonus feat up with it (or Fighter 2/Warblade 4+/X 3 works too).

[DarkestKnight]

Have one of the sortie carry a wand of snake's swiftness, Legions (Miniature's handbook 39). It allows all allies in a 20ft radius burst to immediately take an attack action, even if they have already acted. this doesn't stack with haste, but it seems more cost effective than hasting an entire party and gives a stronger archer battery feel.

[Gurgeh]

I feel it's worth pointing out that a wand of Hunter's Mercy is not quite as cheap as is being said here; since the spell is exclusively a Ranger spell and only appears on the Ranger list, it can't be created with a lower caster level than fourth; the market price would therefore be 2 x 375 x 1 [spell level] x 4 [caster level] for a total price of 3000 gp. Not that it wouldn't still be awesome.

[Red_Dog]

**Reason for the rather obtuse lvl8. I wanted, at the beginning of the campaign, for PCs be in between an average guy[lvl8] and a "lieutenant-equivalent"[lvl12]. So PCs lvl was 10. So hence the "obtuseness" = \ **

>DarkestKnight

I think it has to be massed snake swiftness, and yeah guides will be probably packing some as its more cost effective to make 10 archers to attack, than to use there action to use a dmg spell. But we'll see. I might make wands of that for when they go all out[as those wands would cost some major cash money]. However interesting combo arises in my head *see below*.

>Eldariel & ericgrau

Multiclassing penalties... and elves mixes badly. Also, yeah fighters are decent at dmg output. But they have a Halloween costume for skills. And fighters can grab improved precises shot at 6, which is quite nice. All and all, its not a

>moritheil

So I couldn't find line on concealment = sneak attack. I honestly saw it somewhere... I would think simple silent image casted by a guide, would work a giant mist cloud.

>Gurgeh

Thanks for pointing out man ^^

===================================>

So to follow with an idea with that DarkestKnight & tyckspoon gave me...

Using Hunter's Mercy & mass Snake's swiftness to make critical hits every turn. To actually confirm them, perhaps loading up on Power Critical, Able Sniper and wand of Critical Strike? I am not sure if doing shenanigans with triple wand chambered elven craft bow is a great idea. Perhaps mastercrafted gauntlet with wand chamber to seem a bit fare?O_o

This would look like =>

Ranger 4/Fighter 4

This lets them pick Mastery chain[3 feats], Power Critical, Point Blank & precise shot.

For this build, the bow has to be better though, something like +1 seeking shocking burst. This costs 32k... I can make the case of "1 bow per 1 elf, a weapon that his family had for quite some time"

A normal bow[+1 seeking] criting this way should be able to do

3d8+12[mastery]+3[enc]+3d6[crystal]+9[str] on a successful crit.

I might be forgetting something. But this build is also decent. To confirm, the bonus is +8[feat and spell]. Oddly enough, not being human does hurt this build.

Anyways. Thx for replying so far guys/gals! ^^

P.S. I am trying to find the rules on sneak attacking, but it does seem like a hot mess. I though concealment does deny the DEX to a person as its put in same category in the table? If I can make concealment with silent image, I am just doing that and using the rouge/fighter/ranger build.

[ericgrau]

Wood elves have favored class ranger. Alternatively mix some fighter 8's with a fighter 4/ranger 4. Or all 3 builds. Not everyone in the party needs skills, and cross-class is at least better than nothing. At level 9 the 4/4's get RWM. As pointed out for RWM you need weapon spec at fighter 4 and another bonus feat at character level 8. Only way AFAIK to do that at level 8 is fighter 6+ or a fighter/warblade.

Another option is eyes of the eagle which is 2500 gp for +5 spot. That's enough to give a ranger an amazing spot check or to give a fighter 8 the same spot check as a ranger.

For that matter...

Good way to run skills: Foes are waiting to ambush the party. Barring some epic skill check the PCs can't beat the enemy's hide check at a distance before the enemy beats their non-existent hide check and the whole party is surprised. Given an epic skill check the lucky guy whispers it to the party before the party is spotted and none of the party is ambushed, even those with suck for skills.
Bad way to run skills: Everyone rolls spot. Those who fail don't get to act in the surprise round, those who pass do. Encounter inexplicably begins at about 60 feet away even though the ambushers might have seen the party sooner or been seen. Or if they're purposely waiting for the party to get closer, see above about whispering before the party walks that close.
Worst way to run skills: As above, except everyone rolls spot and hide even if no one is actively hiding and everyone is in plain sight. Every single encounter.


Silent image could work for total concealment, like an illusion of a wall, which would allow sneak attack. Assuming you cast the illusion or an archer ally successfully disbelieves it, letting him see through it. An illusion of a bush or such would be partial concealment so you'd need a hide check to sneak attack, but the party wouldn't need to disbelieve to see through it. An inconspicuous illusion would not allow foes a save since the foes aren't actively examining it or otherwise interacting with it. One cast in combat would usually allow a save and it would waste your turn, so it's not advisable. Likewise silent image requires concentration so after the 1st attack you can't maintain it and shoot at the same time, not to mention the saves everyone gets as they examine the source of those arrows.

[sonofzeal]

Thats not true. NPC classes only count as 1/2 a CR until you have a number of levels in NPC classes equal to your hit dice. After that, each level of an NPC class adds +1 to the CR.





A level 16 warrior elf is a CR 15 creature.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

[Thurbane]

Now, do these archers need to be LEVEL 8 or CR 8? Because if they just need to be CR 8 just make em level 16 warriors (NPC class is half cr).
Level 16 Elven Warriors = CR15. NPC classes are not CR = 1/2 levels, they are CR = levels -1.

Non-associated classes for monsters = +1 CR per 2 levels, up to the monsters racial HD, and all NPC classes are treated as non-associated. I believe this is where the confusion comes from.

[Jeraa]

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

It specifically says that when you have NPC levels equal to your hit dice, they count as +1 CR. And the DMG has a table that even shows a level 10 dwarf warrior is CR 9 (page 38). And the few adventures I checked also shows NPC CRs being their level -1 (such as the Hobgoblin Veterans in Red Hand of Doom - warrior 4, CR 3.)

The bolded line does not mean "NPC classes are nonassociated always, forever, and with no exceptions." NPC classes just always start out nonassociated, but can become associated once the number of NPC classes is at lest equal to your hit dice. Something the DMG and the printed adventures agree on. And something the Monster Manual itself at least implies.*

*Drow with NPC classes, along with a few other creatures, have a CR equal to their NPC class levels. The creature entries specifically say so. So a Drow Warrior 20 is a CR 20 creature. If NPC classes were always and forever nonassociated, then a regular elf warrior 20 would only be CR 10. Drow racial abilities are powerful, but not worth +10 CR. And the CR increase of the drows racial abilities change - from +10 CR at 20th level, to only +2 CR if they were 4th level warriors. (Drow warrior 4 = CR 4, elf warrior 4 = CR 2)

Using the rules like you're actually supposed to, a Drow Warrior 20 is CR 20, and a regular elf warrior 20 is CR 19. The drows racial bonuses are only worth a +1 CR, and its always worth a +1 CR.

[DarkestKnight]

there are only two versions of Snake's Swiftness, the normal version which affects a singular target and legions which affects all allies in 20ft. Don't ask me why they didn't dub it Mass Snake's Swiftness, I don't know. The crit'ing archer battery is a cool idea.

[tyckspoon]

there are only two versions of Snake's Swiftness, the normal version which affects a singular target and legions which affects all allies in 20ft. Don't ask me why they didn't dub it Mass Snake's Swiftness, I don't know. The crit'ing archer battery is a cool idea.

Almost all of the Legion's X spells got reprinted and renamed as Mass X in the Spell Compendium.

[DarkestKnight]

And now I know.