Feat Selection for Xbows

[Kerilstrasz]

Well.. i was searching for archery feats that are used with a crossbow..
till now i found all of the usual suspects but they are for bows too..
List 1: Bows (& Xbows)
Point blank shot
Precise shot
Shot on the Run
Dead Eye Shot
Craven (CoR) by SamBurke
Able Sniper (RoW) by Balista
Plunging Shot (RoW) by Balista
Woodland Archer (RoW) by Balista
Rapid Shot* by Cieyrin
Manyshot* Cieyrin
Dead Eye (DrC) by darkbuu_1
List 2: Xbows Only
Rapid Reload
Crossbow Sniper
Xaniqos School (DotA) by Gorfnab

*Only for Light Xbow with the use of Rapid Shot

can you add to my lists more feats that belong there?
The only prequisities are: Not exotic, BaB +6 or lower,
available to NOT caster/psionic classes

P.S. : Provide the source book too plz :)

[SamBurke]

Craven. +20 damage by the end of it, for a little bit of a penalty to fear. Not exactly a "crossbow" feat, but it's good for a rogue/crossbow user.

[Curmudgeon]

If you're taking Craven you've got sneak attack as a class feature, and that's limited to 30' range. Crossbow Sniper boosts sneak attack range to 60', and gives you a boost (½ DEX bonus) to damage (always, not just with sneak attack).

[gorfnab]

Hand Crossbow Focus and Versatile Combatant from Drow of the Underdark.

Xaniqos School (also from Drow of the Underdark) works on all crossbows.

[Kerilstrasz]

Hand Crossbow Focus and Versatile Combatant from Drow of the Underdark.


although its a nice feat it requires the use of rapier, also exotic ;)

[Ballista]

Able Sniper from Races of the Wild Page 148
only on flat footed targets at more than 30 feet away

EDIT: Also, Plunging Shot (only works with high ground or flight) Page 152 of RoW as well as Woodland Archer (good for sniping shots) Page 154 of RoW

[Cieyrin]

There's a distinct lack of Rapid Shot and Manyshot, as once you achieve free action reloads (Rapid Reload and Hand Crossbow Focus being the usual suspects but the Ghostly Reload spell and Quick Loading enchantment tend to come up often as well), you can freely use them with crossbows as you can with any other ranged weapon. More quarrels means more damage and ranged attackers do their best work by volleying, typically.

[AslanCross]

Deadeye Shot from PH2. Ready an action to attack an enemy that an ally attacks in melee. When you attack, the target loses Dex to AC bonus vs your attack (thereby triggering Sneak Attack). It's a more reliable way to snipe with your crossbow when you have no time to prep the battlefield/take up a position.

[Kerilstrasz]

Deadeye Shot from PH2.

Allready in the list but thnk you a lot :)

[Kerilstrasz]

There's a distinct lack of Rapid Shot and Manyshot, as once you achieve free action reloads (Rapid Reload and Hand Crossbow Focus being the usual suspects but the Ghostly Reload spell and Quick Loading enchantment tend to come up often as well), you can freely use them with crossbows as you can with any other ranged weapon. More quarrels means more damage and ranged attackers do their best work by volleying, typically.

well rapid & many shot are great feats but since they require exotic (hand Xbow) , the use of magic (ghostly reload spell) or dont stand as feats alone
(Q.Load chant) let me let those out of those 2 lists :P
thnx very much though

[Cieyrin]

well rapid & many shot are great feats but since they require exotic (hand Xbow) , the use of magic (ghostly reload spell) or dont stand as feats alone
(Q.Load chant) let me let those out of those 2 lists :P
thnx very much though

You can use a Light Crossbow with Rapid Reload, that's not exotic at all. It's Simple, even. :smallwink:

Really, Rapid Reload(Light Crossbow) just puts you one feat behind bow users for using the same tricks, just with a different crit range and a generally longer range before accuracy begins to suffer.

[Kerilstrasz]

You can use a Light Crossbow with Rapid Reload, that's not exotic at all.

Yes you re right.. thats my bad..

[Red_Dog]

Hello there. I've recently build many crossbow NPCs, and I truly like them, so maybe I can help ^^. I think all of the feats were already named besides general ambush feats[Drows of the Underdark have 3 and they are ALL great, Complete scoundrel on the other hand... well not book's proudest moment ] and deadly precision [re-roll sneak attack 1s, BAB+5, DEX 15 expanded psionic, doesn't need a psionic ability to be taken]. So I'll just give few general pointers ^^

To me, there are 2 ways to make a great crossbow build=>

>60' Precision dmg gunboat[if your dm won't count sudden strike for Xbow sniper, he/she is a bad person]
>30' Gun slinger.
*Why don't I have weapon aptitude shenanigans... well I really do not like the concept look, call me obtuse, I prefer at least slightly more "reasonable" concept*

First one bases around kiting enemies and debuffing them with no save. Swift hunters can pull it of, and so can Daring outlaws and Swift Ambushers[probably better candidate because of more d6s]. This build can't crank out too much damage, but its fun and unexpected to a degree.

Second based around an "advantage" of Xbows not needing many feats[space for TWF chain] and cranking out a serious number of attacks and significant precision damage while not truly entering melee range. Build needs a Hit-n-run dip that adds dex to dmg at 30' on flat footed foes. Basically TWF chain+HandXbow focus+Deadly precison alone on a combat rouge[rouge with few fighter/ranger dips] will crank out an impressive d6 avalanche. The dm still must interpret HandXbow focus as true free action reload[getting quick-loading helps to convince him] for this to work. But again, gunslining is cool, and it hopefully convince him/her to let you ^^

So yeah, the "lack of feats" isn't that bad. Xbows wielder that can make a full attack, doesn't need many shot and has lots of free feats to play with that an archer often doesn't.

That's my take on it ^^.

[Kerilstrasz]

Red Dog if i get you, you actually propose a more..hmm... ellusive?.. sneaky tactic to compensate the lack of feats?
well obviously tactics are very important and will be used but lets stick to the feats for now :)
thank you very much for your answer and be sure i ll use any of those advise as best i can :)

[Red_Dog]

Well since you used craven on the list, I gave you this one *in beginning of the previous post*=>


deadly precision [re-roll 1s on sneak attack, BAB+5, DEX 15 expanded psionic, doesn't need a psionic ability to be taken, just out of psionic book like greater manyshot]

P.S.
1st one might favor elusive approach I suppuse.
2nd one is straight forward machine gun, - basically taking a TWF rouge/fighter and giving him/her xbows to keep enemies at arm's reach while pounding them with sneak attack.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I think Arms and Equipment has some related goodies. Tumbling bolts and Gnome Crossbow Sights.

[Kerilstrasz]

deadly precision [re-roll sneak attack 1s, BAB+5, DEX 15 expanded psionic, doesn't need a psionic ability to be taken].

sorry i missed that.. seems nice but i couldnt find the book..
plz add the book so i edit it in the lists

[Knaight]

Deadly Precision is actually pretty terrible. It activates on 1/6 of the rolls, and on average they will reroll as 4s (as the range is 2-6, linear distribution), for +3 damage. +3 damage every 6th roll is +0.5 damage per sneak attack die. Given the average of 3.5, that's a whole 14.14% increase. It's nontrivial, but there are vastly better options.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The best feat to improve a crossbow archer is Martial Weapon Proficiency: (Composite) Longbow.

[Curmudgeon]

The best feat to improve a crossbow archer is Martial Weapon Proficiency: (Composite) Longbow.
Three problems:

There's actually no such thing.
For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
That's a big waste if you've already got shortbow proficiency; the difference isn't worth the cost of a feat.
It's decidedly not what the OP asked for, and some things (like the doubling of sneak attack range with Crossbow Sniper) simply aren't available that way.

[darkbuu_1]

There is Dead eye from Dragon Compendium, prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon), base attack bonus +1.

You get to add your Dex bonus to damage rolls as precision damage made with any ranged weapons you have Weapon Focus with, within 30 feet.

[Kerilstrasz]

There is Dead eye from Dragon Compendium, prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon), base attack bonus +1.


Sorry for my late response.. i didnt have that book and needed to DL a pdf 1st..
you r a bit mistaken cause according to the book it needs +14 BAB
its a nice feat though

[Curmudgeon]

Sorry for my late response.. i didnt have that book and needed to DL a pdf 1st..
you r a bit mistaken cause according to the book it needs +14 BAB
its a nice feat though
No, darkbuu_1 is not mistaken. You obviously do need to download the errata file for the book, though.

[Kerilstrasz]

No, darkbuu_1 is not mistaken. You obviously do need to download the errata file for the book, though.

Can you very plz provide me a link to get that book?

[Curmudgeon]

Official errata for the Dragon Compendium, Volume 1, is now available as a free PDF download (http://paizo.com/download/dragon/compendium/DragonCompendiumVolumeIErrata.pdf).

[darkbuu_1]

The errata is here (http://paizo.com/download/dragon/compendium/DragonCompendiumVolumeIErrata.pdf). Down on the second page, it seems like a really good feat, I wonder if that's the reason I don't see it posted around more.

[Kerilstrasz]

Very nice.. thnk u both for that.. its goin in the list

[Abemad]

{{scrubbed}}

[Kerilstrasz]

Telling Blow (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/telling-blow--2895/) could be useful for a crit-based crossbow archer, i does not mention a range limit on sneak attack, just that its added on critical hits...

thats pretty nice feat but allow me not to add it on those lists cause its a feat for any kind of weapon and not Bow or Xbow only... the same way weapon focus or other similar arent there too :)
thnx a lot for your help.

[Curmudgeon]

Telling Blow (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/telling-blow--2895/) could be useful for a crit-based crossbow archer, i does not mention a range limit on sneak attack, just that its added on critical hits...
That one's probably best if you go for a great crossbow (18-20 critical threat range) and cast Keen Edge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/keenEdge.htm) on your bolts (making it 15-20 threat range). It's still a low (30%) chance of getting to add sneak attack damage, but should be worthwhile if you regularly go for long-distance attacks.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: As always, please don't provide the full text of non-OGL materials or link to them. I haven't checked all the links above, but I imagine a mod will be along to do so shortly.

[Kerilstrasz]

im sorry i asked for a link.. no need to take actions for the link providers.. was my fault to ask for it.. next time i ll ask to get a link via PM...
thnx

[Cieyrin]

Hello there. I've recently build many crossbow NPCs, and I truly like them, so maybe I can help ^^. I think all of the feats were already named besides general ambush feats[Drows of the Underdark have 3 and they are ALL great, Complete scoundrel on the other hand... well not book's proudest moment ] and deadly precision [re-roll sneak attack 1s, BAB+5, DEX 15 expanded psionic, doesn't need a psionic ability to be taken]. So I'll just give few general pointers ^^

To me, there are 2 ways to make a great crossbow build=>

>60' Precision dmg gunboat[if your dm won't count sudden strike for Xbow sniper, he/she is a bad person]
>30' Gun slinger.
*Why don't I have weapon aptitude shenanigans... well I really do not like the concept look, call me obtuse, I prefer at least slightly more "reasonable" concept*

First one bases around kiting enemies and debuffing them with no save. Swift hunters can pull it of, and so can Daring outlaws and Swift Ambushers[probably better candidate because of more d6s]. This build can't crank out too much damage, but its fun and unexpected to a degree.

Second based around an "advantage" of Xbows not needing many feats[space for TWF chain] and cranking out a serious number of attacks and significant precision damage while not truly entering melee range. Build needs a Hit-n-run dip that adds dex to dmg at 30' on flat footed foes. Basically TWF chain+HandXbow focus+Deadly precison alone on a combat rouge[rouge with few fighter/ranger dips] will crank out an impressive d6 avalanche. The dm still must interpret HandXbow focus as true free action reload[getting quick-loading helps to convince him] for this to work. But again, gunslining is cool, and it hopefully convince him/her to let you ^^

So yeah, the "lack of feats" isn't that bad. Xbows wielder that can make a full attack, doesn't need many shot and has lots of free feats to play with that an archer often doesn't.

That's my take on it ^^.

Problem: TWFing with crossbows runs into the issue that you need 2 hands to reload generally. This can be alleviated via adding Quick Loading special ability to your crossbows, investing in oils or wands of Ghostly Reload (with an Oil or Wand Chamber) or getting a Glove of Storing or of the Master Strategist to store one while you reload the other.

I actually wrote a short PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125255) dealing specifically with that problem that's completely mundane, unlike the above solutions. I think it works fairly well, though it is some of my earliest work, so individual taste may vary. :smallwink:

[Red_Dog]

>hxolhpths

Link for deadly precision[its SRD]
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision

>Knaight

Hmm... when I stated my sneak attack-at great range-abusing elves I didn't do the numbers like that. Well, I do see your point. Hmmm now I'll have to swap it for something >_> I wonder what can I get. Perhaps sickening strike or something.... we'll see /end de-rail

>Cieyrin

The dm still must interpret HandXbow focus as true free action reload[getting quick-loading helps to convince him] for this to work.
Hense this line in my post = ]
*The case to be made about this, is that Rapid reload specifies that you MUST have a free hand, and Handcrossbow focus doesn't... But again, its a territory of asking DM pretty pretty please, and if he/she is too stubborn... Play a thri-kreen soulbow and show him/her an actual flack cannon = ]*

[Cieyrin]

>Cieyrin

Hense this line in my post = ]
*The case to be made about this, is that Rapid reload specifies that you MUST have a free hand, and Handcrossbow focus doesn't... But again, its a territory of asking DM pretty pretty please, and if he/she is too stubborn... Play a thri-kreen soulbow and show him/her an actual flack cannon = ]*

Actually, neither Rapid Reload or Hand Crossbow Focus mention changing the hands required to reload, so they remain as normal crossbows, all of which require two hands to reload (including repeating crossbows, which require a second hand to operate the reloading lever). That's why I have Uncanny Reload in my PrC, though picking up Quick Loading or Ghostly Reload is the magical solution to getting around it. Alternatively, porting Weapon Cords from PF would also handle it somewhat, though it doesn't work near as well as it does with double-barreled pistols.

[Curmudgeon]

... though picking up Quick Loading or Ghostly Reload is the magical solution to getting around it.
That's not right, I'm afraid. The Quick Loading weapon enhancement doesn't change the need for a second hand. It speeds loading (getting a bolt into place), but you've still got to have two hands to draw back the string. Similarly, the Ghostly Reload spell draws back the string, but does nothing about loading the next bolt. Quick Loading and Ghostly Reload together will provide an adequate solution to let you fire repeatedly without needing a free hand, but just one of them won't solve the problem.

[Cieyrin]

That's not right, I'm afraid. The Quick Loading weapon enhancement doesn't change the need for a second hand. It speeds loading (getting a bolt into place), but you've still got to have two hands to draw back the string. Similarly, the Ghostly Reload spell draws back the string, but does nothing about loading the next bolt. Quick Loading and Ghostly Reload together will provide an adequate solution to let you fire repeatedly without needing a free hand, but just one of them won't solve the problem.

This is what I get from doing things strictly from memory. Ah well.

[Brock Samson]

Hmmm... what exactly does the Dead Eye feat say? If you're using a thrown weapon does it count? Could you then apply Str and Dex to a thrown weapon? If so then I see an addition to the Brutal Throw/Power Throwing/Bloodstorm Blade!

[Telonius]

Zen Archery (CWar) will work with crossbows as well as regular bows.
A magic crossbow would qualify as an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if you decide to take that feat. A Masterwork crossbow can be an Ancestral Relic (BoED).

[darkbuu_1]

Hmmm... what exactly does the Dead Eye feat say? If you're using a thrown weapon does it count? Could you then apply Str and Dex to a thrown weapon? If so then I see an addition to the Brutal Throw/Power Throwing/Bloodstorm Blade!

The words it uses are Ranged Weapon, so it's probably talking about the weapons that come under the ranged weapons heading in the weapon tables on the SRD. There a few weapons you'd be able to apply both STR and DEX to; the sling and Hank's Energy Bow are a couple.

[Cieyrin]

Hmmm... what exactly does the Dead Eye feat say? If you're using a thrown weapon does it count? Could you then apply Str and Dex to a thrown weapon? If so then I see an addition to the Brutal Throw/Power Throwing/Bloodstorm Blade!

Dead Eye applies Dex mod to damage for WFed weapons when w/in 30' of the target, so yes, thrown weapons, slings and composite bows all could have both Str and Dex to damage.

On a sidenote, if you go Bloodstorm Blade, there is no reason to use Brutal and Power Throw, as you treat your thrown attacks as melee. That's more a concern for Hulking Hurlers.

[Particle_Man]

Crossbows can be used while prone (and when prone it is harder to hit you with ranged weapons). Any feats that can take advantage of that?

[Cieyrin]

Crossbows can be used while prone (and when prone it is harder to hit you with ranged weapons). Any feats that can take advantage of that?

Not that I can think of off-hand, no, other than the incorrectly written Prone Shooter from PF's Ultimate Combat, which I wouldn't touch till errata hits (the feat, not the book, though other parts besides are in desperate need of errata as well).