[3.5] Illusionist Houserule Help!

[PrinceRenais]

My DM has decided to be stubborn and say "Illusions cannot be real" while staring at the description of Shadow spells. She doesn't seem to understand, but despite all of my attempts - and showing her the specific lines in the PHB - she is being stubborn with her, what may as well be, houserule.

What I ask you now is, does this rule make an illusionist's hopes and dreams completely ruined, or is there something I'm missing? Yeah, I automatically memorize my illusion spells and get an extra two per level (Illusion Mastery Variant, gave up Enchanting and Necromancy, gave up Familiar for a Wizard Bonus feat as a houserule)... The best use I might get out of an Image is sending an attractive woman into a room to lure some guys in there so that I can use Fireball and kill'em'all, if they're even lured by the illusion. They shouldn't get a save until they study or interact with it, but my DM would give one to them anyway, for seeing it and saying that's "interacting" with it.

As wrong as she is about these things, I'm not here to have people tell me to get a new DM, and I'm tired of arguing about these things with her. I'm here to make the best of what I've got! I like her as a friend, and her campaigns are fun - things are just being very controversial this time...

[Aegis013]

Sounds harsh, at least it sounds like you didn't give up Evocation and Conjuration expecting Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration to cover those aspects.

Also, simply seeing an illusion isn't enough interaction to realize that it is an illusion. If your DM thinks so, that bites, as she is specifically gimping you. Have there been any situations in which you were so effective that she didn't know what to do to merit retaliation?

Considering a lot of illusion prowess is just straight up gone according to these houserules, load up on non-illusion spells, or see if you can change your Wizard to conjuration or transmutation specialist. Hopefully, she will understand if you explain to her that by the rules as you understand them, Illusions don't grant a save on sight and Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration work, and by denying you those options and altering that interaction she very drastically affected how you thought your character would function.

If that doesn't fly, then really you'll just have to avoid reliance on image spells. Illusion still has some pretty good spells like Color Spray, Greater/Mirror Image, Invisibility line, Phantasmal Strangler, Friend to Foe and others, at least.

[Lostbutseeking]

Go shadowcraft mage and make things real (now with 140% quasi-reality), illusions be damned.

The less warlike approach is to talk to your DM about changing your school specilisation due to material changes in functionality.

[Malachei]

Illusion still has great defensive potential, and you have Transmutation and Conjuration. Perhaps with slightly changing your focus, you can make the best of the given situation.

And then there is Project Image, Greater Invi, Simulacum, Greater Mirror Image etc.

But your DM definitely nerfs your character. I wonder what she does to a Conjurer.

[GnomeGninjas]

Core only non-shadow good illusion combat spells for uses other than tricking the enemy;
1st Level: Colar Spray is a decent debuf at higher levels and save or lose at lower levels.
2nd Level: Invisiblity because its invisibility, blur because miss chance is nice nd gives imunity to precision damage, at higher levels there are better spells for it, mirror image because it makes it hard to be hit.
3rd Level: Displacement is like blur but better. Invissibility Sphere
not actually great in combat but good enough that I included it here anyway.
4th Level: Invisibility Greater give it to your rogue and they can sneak attack all combat, giveit to your self to for the miss chance.
5th level; nothing to good for in combat
6th level: Mislead looks nice,
7th level: The good stuff this level is mostly part real.:smallfrown:
8th Level; Scintilating Patern looks like a nice save or lose
9th Level: Wierd is okayish

The _______image spells are good forcovering up pits/hazards so ememies fall into them thinking they can charge overthem to hit you.

Nitpick:I think that they would get a save in the example you gave so she is right about that. I would classify following (and probably studying pretty closely) as interacting.
Disclaimer: I don't have much experience with several of these spells if someone else in this topic says I'm wrong about some of them they are probably correct.

[Mnemnosyne]

If other character builds interest you at all, I would demand to get a chance to completely rework the character, since you made the character based on the actual rules and not her houserules. Then rebuild the character as some other type of mage, while making sure to check with her if there's any other surprise rule-changes on major spell lines/abilities/etc that are important to your build.

An illusionist in a game where the DM gives enemies saves at inappropriate times (before they have interacted with the illusion) is bad enough, but one where the DM refuses to recognize the stated quasireality of shadow spells / shadowcraft mage abilities in addition to that? The entire specialization becomes of highly questionable value at that point (I would argue that it is a net negative, since you lose two schools of magic while gaining very little of real effectiveness, since many of your key spells are being severely nerfed), and unless this was made clear before you created the character, it seems to me that you'd be fully justified in reworking the character because of those rules changes.

[PrinceRenais]

@Aegis013: Where I've been difficult to tone down to the rest of the group? I've hardly ever played a caster with her in the group, so cheesy casters aren't a considered problem. I had, at one time, played a Swordmaster, (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Swordmaster_%283.5e_Class%29) and got rid of him of my own accord because he was so overpowered. 20 Dex and Dextrous Defense... I was nigh untouchable at level 2. (I added some suggestions to the page about neglecting some abilities at DM's consideration). One thing that may be the case, though: I can't think of a time I actually got poor rolls in her games - always had at least one 18. That may have something to do with it - though, this time I used a point buy with her consent. No 18s, for once.

@Lostbutseeking: You missed the entire meaning of my post. Spells in the illusion school cannot be partially real or real. Shadowcraft Magi go against those rules and aren't allowed.

@Everyone: I hadn't thought about the other spells at the time I posted this (stupid rage-ful posting habits!) - but I doubt they're worth specializing for. If the character hadn't already been heavily established in-character as an illusion-specialist, I'd consider changing him - but at this point, I'm content with him as a person, and reworking him to be something else doesn't really appeal to me. It's a considerable option, though!

I suppose I'll be stuck as the illusionist whom never seems to use the fundamentally known illusion spells. I can still say I've got them all memorized - that's more than most can say about their specialty school (unless they're feat-monsters, of course).

[Prince Zahn]

As lovely as shadow spells are, your illusionist is capable of doing great whether
He has them or not, glamer+patterns, figments, and phantasms could still put shadow-focused illusionists in check if done right.
What I mean with that is: With a little investment, even ____ Image spells could serve you a purpose, consider in whichever chance to get DC feats(the easiest examples to come to mind are greater/spell focus or even tatoo focus if your DM is in a good mood), I'd even go as far as saying 'image spells are a staple and backbone of the illusion school's creativity and as such it would be wasteful to avoid them'.
As for your example with the illusory woman, that's honestly the tip of the iceberg of what you can do with them, I used my image spell to bring the brutish, creepy innkeeper into a combat scene, once he got everyone's attention I changed him to appear demonic and the foes ran for their DM-dependant existence,also Using illusory terrain to make a bone filled room appear as an ENOURMOUS treasury to prepare our ambush.
Illusion spells can make a dwarven incinerator appear as the mine's exit path, Think while combining it with a fear effect. :smalltongue:the list goes on!
My 2 closing statements:1.image spells are an important part of illusion magic, it has more flexibility and creative uses than mass suggestion,on par with polymorph spells, and no less amusing if so you try to make it. :smallwink:
2. You don't need to worry about your illusionist lacking options by not getting shadow spells, perhaps the plane of shadow doesn't exist in your campaign, leaving no place for shadow spells to originate from...either way, there are always other options that are still efficient.

[PrinceRenais]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys!

As of now, my DM has opened the option to argue about it. We're talking about it tonight. What can I say so that it makes sense for Shadow spells to be in the Illusion school, yet not be "Illusions"? Illusions, by definition, are false things. Shadow spells, though, are partially there...


Definition of Illusion: "A false idea or belief; A deceptive appearance or impression."

Summary of the Illusion school: "Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened."

Shadow Spells: "A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real."

The Illusion school, based on that summary, shouldn't necessarily contain Shadow spells, as they are there, if only partially. I don't know how I can clear that up for my DM... My best guess is emphasize the partial reality of shadow spells? She's old-fashioned, played a lot of AD&D. Help would be greatly appreciated, because I'm at a loss at this point! :smallfrown:

[Lostbutseeking]

Try this for a analogy.:

There is a pit of spikes, the pit is real, the spikes are an illusion. Falling into the pit will still hurt you, just not as much as it would if it had been filled with spikes.

That is in effect a shadow illusion - part of it is real, you have constructed it out of shadow matter and part of it is just a trick.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would read this. Note it has houserules, but it has reasonable houserules. Yes, this is a link to dandwiki, but I am only linking there because it happens to be *one* of the places to find this bit of information...

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Book_of_Gears_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Magic#Illusion_Magic:_I_Don.27t_Believe_This_Crap

Also, Endarire on these forums made a REALLY GOOD module that makes extensive use of illusions, you should read through it to figure out ideas of how you want to use illusions, and ask the DM about the way it is used in this module (after you look through it):

http://campbellgrege.com/premier-work/

Also. Remind him that Shadow spells create matter. PERIOD. Matter, with weight and mass and volume and density and all of that jazz.

[PrinceRenais]

@Lostbutseeking: That's a decent analogy. If Gavin's wiki page doesn't work, I'll try something along those lines - thanks for the suggestion!

@Gavinfoxx: THANK YOU! I'll be sure to check that site out about imagery ideas, and reading the section on the wiki, "", explains it quite well! I never described material from the plane of shadow as "flimsier", just as "partially real" which I thought was essentially the same thing. It really is, but the different wording makes it make more sense to a non-numbers person. That might actually do it for me. I'll get back to you when we get a decision made.

She seems to have gotten the idea. The explanation that Shadowstuff is what makes them real is acceptable, and something I supposedly didn't explain well enough. Thanks again!!

Edit: It is a she by the way. Weird, right? :smallamused:

[Lostbutseeking]

Glad you got it sorted, in a similair vein to what Gavinfoxx posted there is an excelent series on illusions here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg (All about illusions one to four).