Shapechange Forms

[Yorae]

So, I've been playing a Tramsmuter Gish, nearing epic levels, and I'm about to get my first 9ths and access to Shapechange. I've been using Draconic Polymoph -> War Troll for some time now and it has been very effective. However, on looking into creatures to use with the extreme flexibility and power of Shapechange, I came up short -- are there any really awesome creatures to use with shapechange that I haven't seen? Preferably humanoid-ish forms, so I don't lose my spellcasting, but hey, if they aren't, I can just change forms later as a free action. =p Cool EX/Su abilities are a bonus.

The polymorph handbook gives Titan/Pit Fiend, which seem pretty effective (any way I can something fun with a Titan's "Oversized Weapon"?), but that's about all I can find.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Chronotyrm (FF) is quite fun because it gives you two full rounds worth of actions, if you don't know why this is good I am afraid I'll have to revoke your wizard's licence.

You could go all day in Dire tortoise firm to always act in the surprise round and then change into a more appropiate form, you also might be able to get some forms from the Epic Level handbook, Gloom I think for some nasty AoO action.

[Malachei]

Chronotyryn? Spellweaver? Solar?

[Yorae]

Went to look them up and do some research on your suggestions....

Chronotyrm (FF): Wow, that's awesome. Dual Actions. =O Decent middle-of-the-road stats, no immunities, some mediocre abilities, but Dual Actions is just amazing.

Dire tortoise (SS): Clever idea, if you don't mind walking around as a big ol' turtle.

Gloom (ELH): Can't use it 'til CL25, but.. stat's aren't bad, but 13d6 Sneak Attack? Yes, please. Fear Gaze and opportunist ain't bad either.

Spellweaver (MM2): Spell weaving is neat for throwing out tons of spells, which could be really useful in quickly buffing up with a lot of spells at the same time. Really bad physical stats, but I guess that's not the point. I don't think I'd get Chromatic Disk, since it's not part of the creature.

Solar (SRD): Why the heck would you turn into a Solar? Physical ability scores are nothing impressive and they have no EX/Su abilities to speak of above immunity to some energy types, which plenty of outsiders have. It does have a pretty great regeneration, though. The thing here is that what makes Solars really good are their SLAs... which you don't get from Shapechange.

[Tvtyrant]

Some people argue that you get a creatures casting abilities when you shapechange into them. There is a RAW argument for it, although personally I think it is silly.

[tyckspoon]

Spell Immunity and Construct-type immunities from various Golems are pretty nice. Tippy is fond of the Shadesteel Golem (Monster Manual 3); it has Shadow Blend, so you get (Su) concealment, it has a free action attack ability (an easily resisted ability with a weak DC, but what the hey, it's free), and the only exceptions to its particular immunity are both beneficial- you get Hasted by [Light] and positive-energy effects, and you are healed by [Shadow] and [Darkness.]

[Emperor Tippy]

Spell Immunity and Construct-type immunities from various Golems are pretty nice. Tippy is fond of the Shadesteel Golem (Monster Manual 3); it has Shadow Blend, so you get (Su) concealment, it has a free action attack ability (an easily resisted ability with a weak DC, but what the hey, it's free), and the only exceptions to its particular immunity are both beneficial- you get Hasted by [Light] and positive-energy effects, and you are healed by [Shadow] and [Darkness.]

Yep, Shadesteel Golems are probably the best general purpose form. Immunity to magic, perfect flight, medium size, acceptable strength and dex, a good list of immunities, and a few other useful abilities.

Beyond that, it really depends on what you want to do. Don't be a Dire Tortoise, shapechange into an Air Weird instead every few hours to use your Su at will Foresight ability.

The big thing with Shapechange is always having the perfect form for whatever you are facing. Whether that is a Lilitu so that you can UMD any item without a check, a Formian Queen for 50 mile telepathy, a Midgard Dwarf for magic item production, an Archon for at will Greater Teleport as an Su, a Chronotyryn for double actions and knowledge bonuses, etc.

[Yorae]

Yep, Shadesteel Golems are probably the best general purpose form. Immunity to magic, perfect flight, medium size, acceptable strength and dex, a good list of immunities, and a few other useful abilities.

Beyond that, it really depends on what you want to do. Don't be a Dire Tortoise, shapechange into an Air Weird instead every few hours to use your Su at will Foresight ability.

The big thing with Shapechange is always having the perfect form for whatever you are facing. Whether that is a Lilitu so that you can UMD any item without a check, a Formian Queen for 50 mile telepathy, a Midgard Dwarf for magic item production, an Archon for at will Greater Teleport as an Su, a Chronotyryn for double actions and knowledge bonuses, etc.

I learn at the feet of the master. Thanks!

[Urpriest]

Beyond that, it really depends on what you want to do. Don't be a Dire Tortoise, shapechange into an Air Weird instead every few hours to use your Su at will Foresight ability.


The one advantage to the Tortoise is that it doesn't just make you non-flat-footed, it gives you a Surprise Round. That said, you can really focus on only using it for ambushes and so forth, Foresight is probably sufficient for defense.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't use Shapechange for, you know, combat awesomeness generally.

You use it to get access to spells and other supernatural abilities!

http://web.archive.org/web/20080611085922/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959

A Free Wish every 6 seconds, for the duration of the spell? Yes, please!

[Alleran]

Dire tortoise (SS): Clever idea, if you don't mind walking around as a big ol' turtle.
Invisible Spell metamagic could arguably remove the visual manifestation of you turning into a tortoise, I suppose.

[Little Brother]

Black Ethergaunt=17th level Wizard casting. Solar=20th level cleric casting. Zodar=Wish. Elemental Weird=Super Sorcerer+Diviner, with some bonus etra senses. All sortsa things give you extra actions.

If you need more, I'm not sure any forum can help you.

[Emperor Tippy]

Black Ethergaunt=17th level Wizard casting. Solar=20th level cleric casting. Zodar=Wish. Elemental Weird=Super Sorcerer+Diviner, with some bonus etra senses. All sortsa things give you extra actions.

If you need more, I'm not sure any forum can help you.

The argument that you get most monsters casting is deeply flawed and barely acceptable for TO.

Arkamoi (MM5 page 184), for example, have casting as a 4th level Sorcerer as an Ex ability. So do a few other things. Shapechange can give you that (and it's a great way to get first and second level spells for free). Claiming it gives you a Solar's Cleric 20 casting is incredibly dubious.

[Yorae]

The argument that you get most monsters casting is deeply flawed and barely acceptable for TO.


Seems pretty cut and dry that shapechange doesn't give you spellcasting, imo. What is the argument that it does?

(Zodar should work, though? Admittedly, I think my DM would hit me.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Seems pretty cut and dry that shapechange doesn't give you spellcasting, imo. What is the argument that it does?

That Spellcasting is an Ex ability.

[Yorae]

That Spellcasting is an Ex ability.

Ah, sorry, I meant in the general case.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah, sorry, I meant in the general case.
Pretty much that all spell casting is an Ex ability and thus Shapechange should get it.

Technically, from a strict RAW perspective, it's probably true. From any other perspective it's not. They also tend to ignore the fact that unless the creature is a spontaneous caster, getting their casting ability doesn't do anything for you unless you remain in that form for 24 hours and select spells as normal at that time.

[Yorae]

so, what happens when you shapechange into a golem, or some other creature with no CON score? Do you just lose a boatload of hitpoints?

[Hirax]

so, what happens when you shapechange into a golem, or some other creature with no CON score? Do you just lose a boatload of hitpoints?

Yes, though bear in mind you take on the creature type, so if you turn into a golem you get bonus HP based on size. It won't make up for the lack of a con score, but it's something.

[Tvtyrant]

I particularly like the Mohrg as a form, because it can get zombies.

"Creatures killed by a mohrg rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the morhg’s control."

Instant necromancy, without a cap limit, and you simply have to kill the critters. A Mailman can simply orb someone to death, and BOOOM! new zombie.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget, you want to know how to Su-replicate spells. Nightmare (use Cauchemar obviously) and Beholder are few decent Core-forms with a decent list of spells as Sus (Etherealness, Astral Projection, Disintegrate, Anti-Magic Cone, etc.). If you happen to be a Sorcerer, Beholder-kin (Lords of Madness has a few good ones) should be extremely interesting for you since their save DCs are Charisma-based.

Also, simple utility like incorporeal forms (e.g. Dread Wraith) also offer some convenient capabilities.

[Little Brother]

Technically, from a strict RAW perspective, it's probably true. From any other perspective it's not. They also tend to ignore the fact that unless the creature is a spontaneous caster, getting their casting ability doesn't do anything for you unless you remain in that form for 24 hours and select spells as normal at that time.One: You're saying that free wishes basically at-will is A-Okay, but getting spellcasting is horribly wrong?

Two: Not at all, the preped caster monsters come with a clearly labeled list of already prepared spells. Sure, you're SOL if you want any other spells, but the prepackaged lists ain't all that bad.

[Lostbutseeking]

One: You're saying that free wishes basically at-will is A-Okay, but getting spellcasting is horribly wrong?

Two: Not at all, the preped caster monsters come with a clearly labeled list of already prepared spells. Sure, you're SOL if you want any other spells, but the prepackaged lists ain't all that bad.

It's more that with a few exceptions where it is listed as an Ex ability you don't get spellcasting full stop.

From the SRD



Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

[Yorae]

One: You're saying that free wishes basically at-will is A-Okay, but getting spellcasting is horribly wrong?

Two: Not at all, the preped caster monsters come with a clearly labeled list of already prepared spells. Sure, you're SOL if you want any other spells, but the prepackaged lists ain't all that bad.

Monsters are also listed with equipment, and you don't get that.

The reason Zodar's Wish ability works is because it is a Supernatural ability that duplicates Wish, just like the Elemental Weirds have Su abilities that duplicate spells. It works RAW, it's just horribly broken.



"EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES
Extraordinary abilities aren’t magical, though they might break the laws of physics. These abilities can’t be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they usually don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They aren’t subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

In any case, my GM has explicitly stated that in our game shapechange doesn't give spellcasting, regardless of whether it's RAW.

Edit:

Actually, Zodar looks like a good form, anyway, doesn't it? It's EX Invulnerability ability looks awesome.

[Randomguy]

If you're not afraid of getting hit in the head by an epic level handbook, change into a gibbering orb, get 24 eye beams and 12 bites every round and the ability to steal spells from spellcasters you eat, win.

[DoctorGlock]

If you're not afraid of getting hit in the head by an epic level handbook, change into a gibbering orb, get 24 eye beams and 12 bites every round and the ability to steal spells from spellcasters you eat, win.

you will need reserves of strength for this since they have 27 HD. but yes, 24 disjunctions/round is a great way of cracking annoying AMF users

[Randomguy]

you will need reserves of strength for this since they have 27 HD. but yes, 24 disjunctions/round is a great way of cracking annoying AMF users

You don't need reserves of strength. From the shapechange text:


the assumed form cannot have more than twice your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 50 HD)


So at level 17, when you get the spell, you can take forms with up to 34 HD.

Also, you can only use 5 rays on the same target, and I think you can only use each ray once but I'm not sure.

[Lostbutseeking]

Shapechange got errated to CL HD, with a max of 25.