Succubus PC

[NotScaryBats]

I would like some help with my Succubus PC, if anyone is willing.
HERE (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=391084) is her sheet.

She is for a level 12 game, so is just a Succubus which is both kinda cool and kinda lame, for obvious reasons. I couldn't really think of a good way to make her effective in combat, so used 2 of her 3 feats for Rapid Shot and gave her a bow. I wanted to get Charming the Arrow (A fey feat to add Cha to attacks with bows) but the DM said 'no' -- it is a very by-the-book campaign.

So, is that an effective strategy for combat? Bow Succubus? Is there something better that she could do? Focus on high DCs with her SLAs? Her Use Magic Device Skill is really high, but I don't really know what I could do with that.

Where should I go from here when she levels up?

I originally built her as going into Divine Bard, hence the high Wisdom, but could there be something better?

[The Crash Man]

Calling it now: half of the people responding will mention just going for a Savage Species level progression for the Succubus, cutting it short, and taking mostly regular class levels.

So before that all starts I might as well ask the first question: does your DM even allow Savage Species? Because if he doesn't, all we have is an ECL 12 with no class levels to work with, and that could be tricky.

[NotScaryBats]

does your DM even allow Savage Species?
No, he doesn't, thanks for mentioning that.


all we have is an ECL 12 with no class levels to work with, and that could be tricky.
That is my issue; I guess its more of a 'gear and feat' question than 'class' question.

[Gray Mage]

No, he doesn't, thanks for mentioning that.


What about LA buyoff? It could at least give you something.

[Urpriest]

Calling it now: half of the people responding will mention just going for a Savage Species level progression for the Succubus, cutting it short, and taking mostly regular class levels.

So before that all starts I might as well ask the first question: does your DM even allow Savage Species? Because if he doesn't, all we have is an ECL 12 with no class levels to work with, and that could be tricky.

I doubt half the people will say that because that's not allowed for Savage Species progressions, at best you can only do that with the online ones.

That said, UMD is indeed a good option, though in general limited in that you can't do anything that a caster couldn't do anyway. I wouldn't use a bow if you can't get Charming the Arrow, it's difficult to deal much damage in archery anyway. Instead, I'd focus on SLAs. Do you have the caster level for Quicken SLA? I've forgotten the requirements on that. Social skills are also relevant: try to help your party avoid fights. You'll be able to pick up more useful stuff when you level (I wouldn't advise Divine Bard since it isn't giving you much over regular Bard and you'll be far behind on casting anyway, but Marshal and Mindspy are both well-loved classes for Succubi).

Edit: Looks like you have the caster level to quicken detect good, detect thoughts, or (debatably) suggestion. The others aren't too useful, but Quickened Suggestion might be nice. I'd spring for Ability Focus in any case.

[Mystic Muse]

Would your DM allow Homebrew? I've got two Succubus racial classes, one as a base that you take into other stuff, one that functions as a bit of a bard PrC.

Base one is seven levels long, PrC is 5.

[Urpriest]

What about LA buyoff? It could at least give you something.

Not until late epic. +6 is a pain to buy off.

[NotScaryBats]

I have not asked about LA Buyoff, but since the character is new, I thought you had to do some adventuring before you could do that? Like, if I gained some exp from now on I could do that?

@ Ur-Priest (Your monster guide was very helpful btw -- at first I made the LA+6 = add 6 to the level mistake)
Your Suggestion is Ability Focus (Suggestion) and Quicken SLA (Suggestion) and Suggest to stop the fighting / avoid fights etc?
That sounds reasonable, but when the chips are down it would really mean she couldn't do too much in a fight (Like against an undead or something immune to Mind-Affecting)

It would free up 33,000 gp for wands though... Getting Stuff like Cure Wounds and Magic Missile could help I suppose.

If it matters, the rest of the party is:
A Dwarf Cloistered Cleric
A Changeling Rogue
A Human Paladin
A Dwarf Deepwarden
A Halfling Archivist / Mystic Theurge

EDIT oh, some responses while I was typing.
No, it is a pretty strict "by the book" campaign with no homebrew races or classes.

[Urpriest]

Hmm...well Ability Focus (Charm Monster) could be helpful as well. One thing about characters with enchantment-type abilities, you can potentially string along various gullible saps to fight for you, as a buffer against things immune to your powers. But whether or not that's ok depends on whether it might clutter up combat too much/be a different playstyle from what the DM had in mind.

I just looked up the general rules for SLAs, and it looks like they default to the Wizard version, so unfortunately Quicken SLA (Suggestion) won't work.

In terms of Undead, you should be able to get some mileage out of UMD. Your only Arcane caster is the Mystic Theurge, what sort of stuff are they planning on casting? If your party lacks Battlefield Control, some wands or staves of staple spells of that sort could be useful.

[moritheil]

I'd generally build them as martial classes that benefit from high charisma - paladins, blackguards, or hexblades. Quicken SLA may be worth looking at.

[Mnemnosyne]

Since you've got telepathy innate, make sure and pick up the mindsight feat.

Additionally, I don't remember all the details, but "by the book" I think if you get level drained and allow it to become permanent, there is no specific rule requiring that when you regain your level, it be in the same class/hit die as you lost it. Therefore, if your DM doesn't disallow this outright, you could lose a couple of the outsider HD through level drain and regain those levels as class levels. Even if you lose two HD through level drain and thus start as ECL 10 and the DM doesn't allow you to regain them before starting, it's probably worthwhile. You'll catch up eventually, and you can take some actual class levels at that point.

Fiend of Possession might be a class worth considering going forward, since a succubus will qualify outright.

Another option might be Incarnum. Incarnate and Totemist might make decent classes since soulmelds aren't directly level-dependent. You also get all the soulmelds at level 1 - there are no 'high level' soulmelds (although you don't get to bind them until chakras open, which can limit their better abilities). Totemist is probably better than Incarnate, since you don't get Incarnate's special (soul) bind until late, but totemists get their special (totem) bind at 2nd level. Sadly, you can't get Double Chakra since that specifically requires a meldshaper level, but you CAN open up additional chakras with feats since those only require character level. Additionally, your essentia capacity is determined by your character level (which includes all those outsider HD) rather than class level. If you can manage to meet the requirements, I would go into Necrocarnate, even if only for a 1-level dip, because that means every corpse you drain gives you +1 essentia for 24 hours. This means that after each battle you actually grow stronger, because you can drain the essentia from the corpses of each thing you kill.

Consider getting an Item of Legacy too - if your DM will allow you to start with a legacy you founded in your backstory, those can be pretty strong if you build them right.

[The_Snark]

I've played a succubus PC in a level 12 group before, and liked it. The succubus makes an excellent scout, infiltrator, face, and general utility character; they have some powerful tools, though it takes some creativity to make good use of some of them. It's a little like playing a beguiler, except that you trade versatility for unlimited uses and sky-high save DCs.

You have almost unparalleled mobility: flight, greater teleport, and ethereal jaunt, all at will. Sadly, you can't bring the party along with you (unless your DM lets you get away with using a portable hole or bag of holding), but it's still excellent for keeping in touch with NPCs long-distance, scouting out dungeons (or fortified enemy bases)... these abilities are very useful when used properly.

You have Detect Thoughts and Change Shape (with a good Disguise check to boot); have fun playing at being a doppelganger.

You have some nice enchantment abilities, with high save DCs (assuming you pump Charisma, which you should). Suggestion is probably your bread and butter in combat—many enemies will resist suggestions like "attack your friend" or "walk up to the raging barbarian", but a bit of creativity can get you around that. Suggest to an ogreish minion that its master is secretly mocking it/stealing from it, and that it should smash them. Suggest to a skulking rat-man that it should run away. That sort of thing. Make sure you do this all telepathically, so your enemies have no idea what's going on. Charm Monster is not usually useful once a fight breaks out, but you can sometimes use it to prevent a fight, or keep some charmed minions around.

You are not good at dealing with mindless constructs and undead. Try working around them if at all possible, or figure out some creative way to contribute to the fight, or (if worst comes to worst) just resign yourself to plinking away with a bow or something while your party members do the heavy lifting. Hopefully your DM will not make you fight lots of mindless creatures in featureless 30' by 30' rooms.

As for build... Ability Focus (suggestion or charm monster) is a solid pick. Supernatural Transformation (from Savage Species) can be very good: it turns one of your SLAs into a supernatural ability, meaning it ignores SR and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity and the save DC scales with your HD. (Though it'll probably be a few levels before you get much use out of that last.) Mindsight (from Lords of Madness) is always a good choice for anyone with telepathy.

Advancement is trickier; my succubus made a fine PC at level 12, but I was never sure what I was going to do next. A Charisma-based spellcaster would have respectable saves, but not many spells, and they'd all be low-level. Not very promising. There are some class abilities and feats that let a martial character take advantage of that high Charisma, but 6 LA really hurts for a melee character, and the succubus isn't particularly good at hitting people otherwise. You can do it, but you have to build the character with this in mind from the start, and it takes a good build to be effective. Things to look into if you go this away: paladin/blackguard/hexblade (Charisma to saving throws), Divine Might (divine feat, expend turn attempts to add Charisma to damage), Snowflake Wardance (bardic music feat, Charisma to attack rolls with certain weapons), necrotic focus (magic weapon property, lets you Energy Drain people by hitting them; combine with the energy-drain enhancing feats from Libris Mortis for extra effect. Warning: pretty expensive).

I would not recommend trying to use a bow; it's not playing to your strengths. You have a +6 BAB at level 12 (plus a +2 racial Dex modifier), and only 3 feats where most characters have 5 (or more), and most of those Charisma-to-X abilities don't work for ranged weapons. A level 12 elf warrior—as in the NPC class—is a better archer in every way, except defenses.

Edit- Fiend of Possession is a good choice, though it's a little weird and you might want to make sure your DM is okay with it. Fiend of Blasphemy and Fiend of Corruption are good for certain character concepts, and are pretty easy to qualify for.

[Tokiko Mima]

Check out the X stat to Y bonus table (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871590/X_stat_to_Y_bonus), and exploit your massive CHA as much as possible.

Assuming you are a martial character you probably want Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, as they provide +CHA fire damage to every melee attack. If you get a level of arcane spell casting, I really recommend the Arcane Duelist PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), the second level of which is +CHA to AC.

If the campaign is in any way related to killing evil outsiders and your succubi is good aligned, you MUST take Avenging Strike (ToB). +CHA to attack and damage, CHA times per day is exponentially nice for someone with a massive CHA.

[The_Snark]

If the campaign is in any way related to killing evil outsiders and your succubi is good aligned, you MUST take Avenging Strike (ToB). +CHA to attack and damage, CHA times per day is exponentially nice for someone with a massive CHA.

The Stunning Surge weapon property (Magic Item Compendium) is nice for much the same reason; stun somebody you hit 1+CHA times per day, with a save DC based on Charisma. Not going to make or break a character, but not bad for a +1 weapon property.

[Flickerdart]

You have BAB 6 from your Outsider HD. Pick up another full BAB level (Fighter would work fine) and then head into Divine Crusader. CHA-based casting suits your stats quite fine, it's an accelerated progression, and you have SLAs to compensate for the restricted spell list.

[Golden Ladybug]

A Level of Battle Dancer from the Dragon Magazine Compendium will give you Improved Unarmed Strike and Charisma to AC, along with full BAB. Perfect for heading into Divine Crusader :smallwink:

[Aeryr]

Also in dragon magazine compendium you might be able to become a fey by taking unseelie fey template.

That would let you take charming arrows, if you still want it and grant you winter chill (or other abilities nice with cha). But it is probably a bad idea, your HD turn to d6

[hamishspence]

Savage Species has type priority rules- if you take a template that would change your Type to one lower on the pyramid, your Type instead remains the same. You still can take it though.

[Fouredged Sword]

May I suggest a look at the Evangelist class from complete divine? One of the class abilities slaps a no save penalty to will saves. Mix well with paladin of tyrannies' aura gained at 3rd level to slap a no save -5 to will saves to anyone within 10 ft of you with no chance of avoiding it. Really useful for charming monsters and suggestion, especially out of combat.

Deadly touch also makes for a not bad once per day damage attack with such a high cha mod. Turn undead is gained at 4th level. You don't rebuke well, but it can full freedom devotion for easy movement.

Other than that get a good +cha belt and take a look at x to y list mentioned earlier.

[Larkas]

I know your character is CG, but maybe this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) can be of some help. You could always go Paladin of Freedom, anyways.

Paladin, however, isn't, strictly speaking, playing to all the succubus' strengths. But read the article, anyways, it might be helpful :smallsmile:

[Urpriest]

Another thought: Polymorph into any Humanoid in general isn't amazing, but there are a few standout good choices. Dark Ones from Fiend Folio can get you 3d6 sneak attack and poison use. Not amazing at this level, but gives you something to do in combat.

[Mordokai]

Pick the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species, change shape into sea hag. You can now use Evil Eye three times per day and it works on anything that's not immune to fear, which is pretty small percentage of creatures. Three times per day, you can now effectively insta kill any creature that does not have immunity to fear, high will saves AND high fortitude saves. It is a little cheap, but very effective nontheless. I know, because I tried it myself and with much lower charisma than yours.

[Larkas]

Pick the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species, change shape into sea hag. You can now use Evil Eye three times per day and it works on anything that's not immune to fear, which is pretty small percentage of creatures. Three times per day, you can now effectively insta kill any creature that does not have immunity to fear, high will saves AND high fortitude saves. It is a little cheap, but very effective nontheless. I know, because I tried it myself and with much lower charisma than yours.

Unfortunately, Sea Hags are Monstrous Humanoids, Succubi can't Change Shape into that :smallfrown:

[Mordokai]

Well, then I'm just happy my DM failed his spot check :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

Your shapeshifting is going to be useful for exotic movement speeds: Asabi (MoF) have a burrow speed, and Tren (Serpent Kingdoms) have a swim speed, as well as three natural weapons.

[Andorax]

Someone has to ask it...why a Succubus? If you're not dead-set on it, could you get just as much succubusness out of a high wisdom and charisma Divine Bard that's a Half-Fiend Human?

Outsider, fiendish, flight, SLAs...and 8 actual PC levels to play with instead of a minor selection of feats and gear.

Just thought I'd ask why Succubus is a must...I could readily see a Half-Fiend Human Divine Bard being played much LIKE a Succubus, with many of the same abilities and a lot more flexibility.

[NotScaryBats]

Lol, I suppose it's just because I am not 'fluent' in D&D 3.5, so it never occured to me to create a Half-Fiend Human Bard. That probably would have made me a bit more powerful without sacrificing the concept.

[jjpickar]

Even easier, if you can wait a few levels, play as Sorcerer and max out Charisma, take all the traditional Succubus spells you can and then when you get to level 16...Bam! Polymorph Any Object.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm You will qualify for the permanent duration and you'll be full caster to boot. Before then, you will still be able to do most of the succubus style stuff with all the spells you will have and then some.

[gbprime]

Nobody considered Marshall?


Motivate Charisma - adds your CHA bonus AGAIN to all CHA based skills AND to the CHA based skills of all your friends within 60'
Master of Tactics - CHA bonus to damage rolls when Flanking, for you and all your allies.


Then take one level of Rogue and the Craven feat at 15th. If your CHA bonus is +12 and your chracater level is 15... that's +1d6+27 damage for flanking someone, while all your allies get +12. And that +27 can be multiplied on a critical hit because it's not bonus dice.

And don't forget the Life Drain feat from Libris Mortis. Instead of dealing and receiving 5hp damage from each negative level you inflict, you can add your CHA bonus to that. So you're dealing 17 HP (and gaining that much in temp HP) with every smooch.