[3.5] Cleric progression help.

[TypoNinja]

So, I've got a cleric in a mid level game (12th) and for the longest time I really didn't have a plan for him other than "make undead go away" and as a theme for some flavour hes a bit of a pyromaniac. Does the undead really well though, my turning checks are just disgustingly effective.

Lately though I've started to feel like I just do a lot of healing, so I wanted some damage focus.

My one bit of home brew is a custom spell made via the spell develompent rules. Improved Produce Flame. 5d6+10 (level scaling, though the level I designed it at made that a moot point) and its a 3rd level spell. In pretty much every other way its Produce Flame, just more damage.

My basic idea is to try and make a mailman/DMM off that spell. I figured DMM since I assume I won't qualify for most of the wizard based MM-reducers. I've never been that good at casters, so any help in this direction would be good.

I don't want to completely break my game, but I figure my very late switch of focus ought to limit cheeze potential pretty seriously anyway. On that note however I can probably take advantage of the Retraining Rules, just don't get me hit over the head with a source book please. :D

Anyway, onto the crunch. The Character currently stands as thus;

Cleric 5/Demon Wrecker 5/Contemplative 2

The plan is to polish off contemplative then on the off chance the game goes epic there's a prestige class that will turn me into a fire elemental, the name escapes me.

Feats:

Spell Penetration
Augment Healing
Tower Shield Prof.
Empowered Turning

That leaves me two feats for meta-magic fun. I was thinking searing spell, fits the character idea really well, and I know its effective, but wasn't sure where to go from there.

Sun Fire and Glory domains, and a fair amount of leftover cash. (hard to go shopping on a glacier).

I figure I want some combination of feats and meta-magic rods to make this work, but wasn't sure how to approach it.

Access to most books, but not all. Notable absences are ToB and MoI.

[Lostbutseeking]

I'd start by asking your DM if feat retraining from the PHB2 is allowed.

Assuming it is you really want to lose tower shield prof and then probably switch empowered turning for extra turning.

Then searing spell, empower spell, DMM: empower. Use lesser rods of extend to double the number of shots you get per casting.

[Vizzerdrix]

Searing and Divine Metamagic: Searing Spell is a decent route.

[Randomguy]

DMM works best with metamagic feats that have a cost, to make them easier to cast.


Persistent spell would do wonders here: Produce flame lets you attack multiple times, but each attack takes a minute off the duration, and it lasts 1 minute pre level, so you get 1 attack per level. Suddenly, you increase the duration to 24 hours, or 1440 minutes. Persisting this spell once pretty much gets you an attack you can use all day. And remember, you can full attack with this spell, which is awesome.

Sadly, you can't persist it normally and you don't have enough feats for DMM.

Let's see... some feats that are great for this spell are searing spell (a necessity), empower spell (deals an average of an extra 7 damage per shot and a maximum of 12 damage per shot if you roll well), maximize spell (deals on average an extra 17.5 damage per shot), extend spell (doubles number of shots) and blistering spell (deals 2 extra damage per level of the spell, so only 6 extra damage per shot. It also adds a small debuff (-2 to attack rolls and skill checks)).


I'd suggest extend spell and searing spell with a lesser rod of maximize if you plan on picking up persist spell and DMM persist later. If you don't plan on getting DMM persist, then get a lesser rod of extend, searing spell, and either maximize spell (if you don't mind spending your high level spell slots), or empower spell (if you do), or blistering spell, which is only +1 metamagic, if you're low on high level spell slots.

[TypoNinja]

Thanks for the suggestions. I really like the persist, but I don't think I have enough feats to get there since I think my priority is Searing Spell and Energy Admixture.

I'm thinking rods for Empower and Maximize, DMM for Searing and Admixture. This about right?

I can use the feat retraining, but only some. I've already dropped Spontaneous Wounder, and I might drop tower shield prof, but Empower turning and Augment healing are going to stay. Tweaking the character somewhat will fly, a complete rebuild probably wont.

Is there any way I could get my hands on metamagic reducers at all? Or are those pretty much out of the question since I'm not arcane?

I'm also trying to keep the character in theme, so a pyro learning Searing and DMM Searing is pretty well in line with that, while he'd buy goodies to enhance the innate burn (rod of maximize).

Finally, the trick with searing spell. The idea is to get energy substitution fire so I can cast anything as fire, then searing spell it, and add on more damage as I can (admixture, maximize, empower, ect) yes? Does that mean I also want admixture fire, or should I be weaving in a different damage type?

[Lostbutseeking]

DMM:Searing isn't worth it - it's only a one level adjustment, losing a fourth level slot isnt that much worse than losing a third when you have fifth and sixth level slots. You will want DMM to be on your highest level adjustment metamagic, be it persistent (for 1440 shots per casting), quicken (general use) or admixture.

You can get easy metamagic (dragon 325) which will reduce the cost of any one metamagic feat by one spell level (to no lower than +1). Dweormer keeper 10 will also reduce the cost of all metamagic by one (to no lower than +1) each).

You can admixture fire with fire as it will be searing this doesnt pose any great risk in terms of lost damage.

Also remember that you can only use one metamagic rod per spell cast.

[TypoNinja]

I thought Searing would be handy for DMM since the nice cheap +1 means I stand to be able to just slap it on anything whenever, so DMM for admixture then?

Already 12th level, 10 level Prc capstone abilities won't work. Easy metamagic could be nice.

A problem with persist. Wouldn't using that mean I'd be un-able to use any other spells while its active? Or does something about produce flame and/or persist bypass the normal rules for retaining a spells "charge" after casting it?

[Randomguy]

I thought Searing would be handy for DMM since the nice cheap +1 means I stand to be able to just slap it on anything whenever, so DMM for admixture then?

Already 12th level, 10 level Prc capstone abilities won't work. Easy metamagic could be nice.

A problem with persist. Wouldn't using that mean I'd be un-able to use any other spells while its active? Or does something about produce flame and/or persist bypass the normal rules for retaining a spells "charge" after casting it?

While DMM's intended purpose may have been to be able to add on metamagic on the fly, it's much, much more useful to use it for metamagic feats that you can't normally apply. For example, persisting a spell is a very, very powerful effect, normally only achievable by around 15th level, yet DMM lets you persist spells as soon as you can cast them (and have the required feats). I mean, 4th level spells are nothing special, and not a very precious resource at your level, but you don't even have 7th level spells yet, so it's much more useful to be able to add admixture at no cost then it is to add searing at no cost. Also, searing is almost always necessary, so a good 3/4 of the produce flames you have prepared should have searing spell already attached.

You seem to be confusing the rules of spell durations with the rules on touch spells. The only time you need to "retain a spell's charge" is when you cast a touch spell, but don't actually touch someone yet. Then you can't actually cast the spell until you touch someone.
Produce flame isn't a touch spell, it's a spell with a duration (that happens to give you a touch attack), just like enlarge person or bull's strength. After a wizard casts bulls strength, they are still free to cast other spells, in the same way that you are still able to cast spells while produce flame is active on you.

[Lostbutseeking]

If you are not going to take it for quicken or persist, then yes take DMM: admixture. Getting DMM: Admixture will cost a total of 3 feats so you will need a fourth for searing. After that a lesser rod of extend,or if you have alot of turning attempts/stacking nightsticks lesser rod of empower.

Produce flame (and so presumably your improved version) has a range of 0 rather than a range of touch, add that to it to not harming you or your equipment and there is nothing to stop you casting other spells while it is active.

Swordsaged.

[TypoNinja]

While DMM's intended purpose may have been to be able to add on metamagic on the fly, it's much, much more useful to use it for metamagic feats that you can't normally apply. For example, persisting a spell is a very, very powerful effect, normally only achievable by around 15th level, yet DMM lets you persist spells as soon as you can cast them (and have the required feats). I mean, 4th level spells are nothing special, and not a very precious resource at your level, but you don't even have 7th level spells yet, so it's much more useful to be able to add admixture at no cost then it is to add searing at no cost. Also, searing is almost always necessary, so a good 3/4 of the produce flames you have prepared should have searing spell already attached.

You seem to be confusing the rules of spell durations with the rules on touch spells. The only time you need to "retain a spell's charge" is when you cast a touch spell, but don't actually touch someone yet. Then you can't actually cast the spell until you touch someone.
Produce flame isn't a touch spell, it's a spell with a duration (that happens to give you a touch attack), just like enlarge person or bull's strength. After a wizard casts bulls strength, they are still free to cast other spells, in the same way that you are still able to cast spells while produce flame is active on you.

Ahh yes, I see I was thinking of applying meta-magic on the fly, but the persist trick is pretty sweet.

Yes I was confusing the touch rules. So as an added benfit my hands will be on fire 24/7. Me like.

So if a Persisted Produce Flame lasts all day, would I be correct in assuming that if I added a maximize from a rod that everything I threw all day would also be max damage since its a single casting of said spell?

If so, daddy has a new toy.

[Lostbutseeking]

You are correct, although due to the large amount of flat damage a rod of empower is slightly stronger than maximize.

If you have enough turning attempts don't forget to persist divine power as well for the extra iterative attack.

[Randomguy]

You might want to extend it manually, as well. 24 hours is great, but each attack reduces the duration by a minute, and so that's 1440 attacks at the start of the day, but the duration runs down over time, so it might not always be enough for a full day. And if it is enough, then you can persist a different spell the next day.
In fact, all your DMM persisted buffs should be manually extended, since that doubles the amount of buffs you can have active at a time (cast half one day and the other half the next).

Oh, here's a tip: Use a prayer bead of karma in the morning, right before you cast your persistent buffs. It makes them harder to dispel.

[TypoNinja]

You are correct, although due to the large amount of flat damage a rod of empower is slightly stronger than maximize.

If you have enough turning attempts don't forget to persist divine power as well for the extra iterative attack.

Definitely not enough attempts to persist two spells. DMM alone is fine, but if I try to break out the nightsticks I'm liable to be hit over the head with a source book :P

Also, manually extended? By that you mean what exactly? This character basically represents my first attempt to optimize a caster much beyond a simple theme, so what you consider a basic trick might be new to me.

[Slipperychicken]

If you want to BURN ALL THE THINGS, I suggest the Fiery Burst reserve feat (Complete Mage pg43). As long as you keep a fire spell prepared, you can spam mini-fireballs to your heart's content, allowing you to burn anything and everything you can target, as well as serving as a nice autoattack for when you don't want to waste your spells/day.


It has the added bonus of letting you be Tim the Enchanter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTbrIo1p-So) from Monty Python.

[Randomguy]

Definitely not enough attempts to persist two spells. DMM alone is fine, but if I try to break out the nightsticks I'm liable to be hit over the head with a source book :P

Also, manually extended? By that you mean what exactly? This character basically represents my first attempt to optimize a caster much beyond a simple theme, so what you consider a basic trick might be new to me.

By manually extending, I mean doing it the normal way. So you'd prepare an extended Improved Produce Flame in a 4th level spell slot, but when you cast it you'll use DMM: Persist and a metamagic rod of empower. This will double the 24 hour duration, making it last 48 hours.
Do this for I.P.F. on one day and for a different spell, possibly divine power, on another, so that you've always got 2 buffs active on any given day.

[TypoNinja]

By manually extending, I mean doing it the normal way. So you'd prepare an extended Improved Produce Flame in a 4th level spell slot, but when you cast it you'll use DMM: Persist and a metamagic rod of empower. This will double the 24 hour duration, making it last 48 hours.
Do this for I.P.F. on one day and for a different spell, possibly divine power, on another, so that you've always got 2 buffs active on any given day.

Oh hey, shenanigans! I like it!

Thanks guys you've given some great tips. Next time I have a character die I'll have to build somebody from the ground up with this kind of build in mind.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'll just leave this here.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122056/forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=605481

Be sure to look at Darkfire, Fiery Vision, Holy Star, Cloud of Knives, Dragon Breath, Stormrage...