Hag's op. Halp.

[Jane_Smith]

So I have a 2-player party in a customized version of the module "Witching Season" meant for only 2 level 1's. Now, everything I have managed to rebalance and fix up to not instantly kill them. There is just 1 tiny problem. The final boss, the green hag... I can remove the witch levels, i can make her feat selection crappy, but in the end she is still exceptionally powerful and able to two shot the paladin player.

I need suggestions on how to balance this encounter down to CR 3ish at best. As-is, she is CR 5. This is for pathfinder.

These are some ideas I have had to give these two pc's an edge.

1: Box of Consumables - A crate gifted to the pc's by the hag's sister who wishs for her to be killed. It contains a few scrolls, potions, and a wand or two. Im thinking bull's strength, bear's endurance, cat's grace potions, a scroll of greater magic weapon (CL 5th), and maybe a scroll of haste (CL 5th) so the witch can buff the paladin for the fight to kinda even it up. Im thinking the wands have 3-7 charges each and are of 2nd level spells to help in the fight.

2: Npc Fodder - Maybe the paladin convinces the townsfolk that the real threat is not what they thought and manages to get the 5-6 militiamen to aid them in storming the hag's lair? Only level 1 warriors, but they might act as meat shields and flanking to at least absorb her first few rounds of nasty surprises.

3: Dues Ex - A storm brews during the night the pc's go to the sinking tower the hag lairs in. The storm's howling winds and down pore causes the tower to creek and sink slightly further, tilting it just enough to cause a ceiling or two to fall in, maybe even an entire wall. One that just happens to be on the hag from her violent/brash combat style? Just enough to cause her to take a round or two to get out of the debris and do a little damage to her to give the pc's a moment to heal themselves or run?

Thoughts? : ( I dunno what to do to nerf or screw her over any further without blatantly giving the pc's godmode or making her like 1 hit dice >_>

[Cieyrin]

I'd do a combination of 1 and 2, though I wouldn't necessarily throw so much magic expendables. I think the paladin would appreciate a potion of Eagle's Splendor more, as more than likely they'll smite, which provides both attack and defense and make the paladin that much longer lasting. Also, a 5th level scroll of Greater Magic Weapon doesn't do anything that regular Magic Weapon can't except last 5 hours as opposed to 5 minutes, which for one fight is meaningless. The enhancement boost to +2 is at 8th.

What's the other character? Also, since the Hag has Invis, let her use it to eviscerate one of the mob NPCs to illustrate her power.

[Jane_Smith]

The other character is a changeling witch. As per the variants I posted in the homebrew for the changeling remake. Using mostly enchantment/illusion powers. A Dhampir Human Paladin and a Changeling Witch. >_> Odd couple much?

[Cieyrin]

Seems like adventurers to me, though Dhampir Paladin is pretty odd I'll admit, especially considering the difficulty of healing via Paladin Lay on Hands and forcing the Witch to split between Inflicts and Cures.

In any case, it really depends on the Hexes and Spells the Witch has at their disposal, though I suppose a couple scrolls from the rival hag may help considerably, like Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Sickening, Ill Omen and Bungle. Evil Eye and Cackle work wonderfully against single targets as well.

[Cespenar]

A timeless example would be to have the players somehow diminish her power by destroying a prized object before engaging her. If you can tie it to the hag's backstory (if there is one), all the better.

[nedz]

I dislike (1) unless its stuff the players have 'earned' - so loot from a previous would be good. It just feels like DexM.

(2) is up to the players, though facilitating/prompting this would be fine I think.

(3) DexM is always a bad idea.

You could always weaken the opponent by having had her fight someone else just before the party attack. This could be combined with (2), perhaps the PCs meet the remains of the militia who launched an attack independantly. The Hag will have less resources available, and may even be wounded or distracted ?

[Jane_Smith]

There is actually one such item in this hag's backstory. She is 571 years old. 500 years ago, roughly, she possessed an item gifted to her by the goddess of monsters, "The Eye of Ilthezari", which allows a COVEN a hags/witchs to use nightmare at will at any range on anyone they know the names of, and allows them to change the alignments of those who fail there saves multiple times to chaotic evil one step at a time. An incredibly potent artifact - except that Gortha, the hag in this story, only has one living allied sister, who has nothing to do with her at present time. The other? Was killed many years ago from betrayal, and is now a hag-ghost that is helping the pc's to enact her revenge so she can rest in peace. The artifact is completely unusable and has no powers without a full coven, however.

[The Glyphstone]

Destroying an artifact to defeat a CR3-5 monster seems a bit much, though.

Also, I thought this was going to be a thread talking about Sea Hags and their rather ridiculous Evil Eye ability. DC13 isn't bad at CR 4, but failing it means three days of immobility, and potentially outright death. Is there any monster lower than CR4 with a save-or-die ability?

[Cieyrin]

Destroying an artifact to defeat a CR3-5 monster seems a bit much, though.

Also, I thought this was going to be a thread talking about Sea Hags and their rather ridiculous Evil Eye ability. DC13 isn't bad at CR 4, but failing it means three days of immobility, and potentially outright death. Is there any monster lower than CR4 with a save-or-die ability?

Allips are pretty much no save just die at CR 3 and Wis drain putting people into comas, combined with incorporeality and turn resistance making them effectively 6 HD undead. Just...disgusting, why they are CR 3, I will never know.

[some guy]

Also, I thought this was going to be a thread talking about Sea Hags and their rather ridiculous Evil Eye ability. DC13 isn't bad at CR 4, but failing it means three days of immobility, and potentially outright death. Is there any monster lower than CR4 with a save-or-die ability?

Cockatrices are CR 3.

[The Glyphstone]

Cockatrices are CR 3.

Right - couldn't remember if they were CR3 or CR4.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if outright death is better or worse than Evil Eye. Remove Curse isn't available until level 5 at minimum, so depending on if the sea hag was a random encounter or a miniboss, three days of 'you are frozen and watch everyone else do stuff' could be really boring.

[Rift_Wolf]

Cockatrices are less powerful in Pathfinder; they deal Dex damage rather than instantly turning you into stone.

Allips are a nasty CR3, especially if the party hasn't yet got magic weapons (I remember the DM once pulling an Allip out at 2nd level as a random encounter. We just ran.)

The sea hags evil eye is a mind-affecting fear effect, and it requires two actions and two failed saves for the comatose state, then a third to outright kill them. So it's more save-or-save-or-save-or-die, plus remove fear would give a bonus to each save (Not sure on the ruling of protection.vs. evil/chaos), and she can only use the evil eye three times a day (So can comatose one person a day, if she's lucky.) It's still pretty harsh, but at 4th level, the party should be pretty resistant to a sea-hag.

[Andorax]

Potential dumb question...would they be able to level up to L2 before said climactic battle?

Could you put a bit more fodder/stretch the aventure out a bit to allow them to get to that point?

I'm not hugely familiar with Pathfinder, so I can't say with a great deal of confidence, but I've generally seen a pretty strong power jump from L1 to L2, and so I'm wondering if that might help with a good chunk of your problem.

[Toliudar]

Good on you for seeing this problem coming in advance. I'd suggest chucking the Green Hag's build out the window. Keep the character fluff, but insert an entirely different crunch. Bugbear, Troglodyte, Lizardfolk or kuo-toa, perhaps with a level or two of sorcerer or druid casting, should still be a major challenge.

[docnessuno]

Well, i think the best options are (possibly combining them all):

Getting Lvl 2 before the crucial encounter
Help by one or two brave townsfolk (Lvl1/2 in NPC classes like warrior and adept), but only if the PC's seek it (some hints should be dropped along the way)
Stealing (destroying it should be out of the group capabilities) the Hag's artifact, this should prompt some sort of curse from the goddess of monsters on the Hag herself for being so careless of a gift of the gods. (Works as Bestow Curse with CL 30, -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks). The 'detour' in the normal adventure necessary to accomplish this feat could as well justify the group leveling up.

[Roguenewb]

You can always simply adjust numbers. Give the hag the basics of negative levels (-5 HP, -1 on d20 rolls, and -1 caster level), until you feel you are in the right place.

[nedz]

Good on you for seeing this problem coming in advance. I'd suggest chucking the Green Hag's build out the window. Keep the character fluff, but insert an entirely different crunch. Bugbear, Troglodyte, Lizardfolk or kuo-toa, perhaps with a level or two of sorcerer or druid casting, should still be a major challenge.

I like this idea, but go further and Lampshade the Hag.

Some ideas

Have a really pathetic monster hide under an illlusion the fearsome reputation of a hag.
As above, but the monster is actually quite dangerous in some accidental way.
Have some cursed damsel the party have to release from her curse, rather than fight.
Keep the Hag, but make her despondant and not reallty aggressive.


Unless you are tired of the campaign already ?

[Andorax]

Why am I suddenly reminded of a scene from the movie "The 10th Kingdom" where Acorn the Dwarf pretends to be the witch of the swamp by throwing his voice and a bit of shadowplay and disguise?

I somewhat like the idea of casting a non-hag in the same role...a hideously ugly Half-Orc, Half-Troll or the like...Adept levels to give some of the mystical magic abilities. Unless your players are in the habit of cracking open their MMs at your table, they're liable to never know the difference.

[Jane_Smith]

Well. We finished the adventure/hag fight the other night, and this is basically what happened in a nuttshell.


1. Paladin discovers the witch that was blamed is innocent of the strange events going on around town. He decides to protect her while investigating more about the hag, Gortha. Witch is also a changeling and Gortha's half-human/half-hag daughter.

2. Paladin learns that Gortha was defeated long ago and that her mind was shattered and she somehow managed to escape the wrath of those she pissed off/rised against her. Her coven/cult was destroyed and she was left with nothing. She returned about 30 years ago, with the artifact reclaimed, but no coven to use its powers, her mind having finally, somewhat, regained its sanity to function.

3. Paladin discovers that Gortha, 30 years ago, corrupted a young witch named Rann that lived in the community via magical means into chaotic evil and turned her into a hag/etc. However, when gortha revealed her plan to destroy the town and the inhabitants of the region for revenge, rann's last shread of mortality snapped and fought back against gortha as a bitter rival. Gortha used the humans to hunt down rann and kill her by dropping hints/tips to her location - learned from the ghost of Rann herself, now somewhat free of the corruption, but obessed with revenge/protecting the town.

4. Paladin discovers that after Rann failed to be the 3rd member of gortha's coven, gortha birthed a daughter (the witch) to recruit later. This time, she had a plan - she would make the witch THINK she was destroying the town willingly - by turning the town against her from the very beginning. Protecting her, but allowing the villagers hatred to be apparent. When things would settle down, Gortha would do something to spark up there ire yet again. This the witch lived the last twenty years in solitude as a hermit, fearing for her life, and learning witchcraft by gortha's unseen hand (a book here and there, etc - so she would be eligible to become a hag and her powers would develop as gortha desired them). The village was about ready to lunch mob her and drive her out of the town when the paladin intervened and showed her kindness, ruining much of gortha's plan.

5. Gortha learns of the paladins interference. She pries into the dreams of her daughter regularly, trying to corrupt her strong will to be more willing to join, and to seed nightmares of the townsfolk betraying her, killing her, or worse. She learns of the paladin threw her memories and that she has been discovered. Gortha goes on the offense and begins to assault the paladins mind with horrid nightmares and messages of death/etc.

6. The paladin finds proof, finally, of Gorthas involvement in the events and the witchs innocence. He spared the life of one of the dull-witted ogrekin that served gortha (that she acquired from her 2nd coven member, lanni longshanks, the ogre broodmother - which is not meant to be encountered in this adventure due to being an advanced annis hag and not in this area). The ogres were sent to the witchs shack to waylay any of the townsfolk who came looking for the witch, kill them, and use that as evidence of the witchs evil/etc. The paladin killed one and spared the other, the witch charmed him to follow them back to town. The townsfolk were alarmed at first, but the witch broke the charm and, with a promise of food and protection from gortha's wrath, told the entire story (as well as it could for having 6 int) of gortha's involvement and its own for killing the livestock, etc. The town pardons the witch and asks for forgiveness.

7. Paladin rallies militia for a true witchhunt. Gets 8 level 1 warriors and the ogre himself is willing to help when he learns gortha might have corrupted his mother/lanni (thinking in simple terms, GORTHA HURT MAMMY, GORTHA GET SMASHED - when he thinks gortha betrayed him and his family - god bless that 7 wisdom!). Witch takes a liking to ogre as a friend and feeds him/etc (early cohort i suppose?) and the mayor is willing to pardon even the ogre of his crimes if he aids in killing the hag.

8. Boss time. The witch, knowing gortha's location from her dreams, leads the militia to the tower. The militia is nervious, as they should be. Gortha ambushs them, killing a few of the militia. The paladin and witch manage to wound gortha and drive her off, but not before she uses her Robe of Bones to spawn two zombie ogres to slow down and weaken the pc's. Kretch, insulted and infuriated at the sight of his kin as zombies, shows his true colors as a barbarian and flys into a rage and helps the pcs survive. The militia is terrified and refuses to go into the hag's lair - the sunken tower in the swamp, to finish her off. The paladin manages to influence them to stay at least nearby in case the hag tries to flee when wounded.

9. Tower-top final battle. The paladin, ogre, and witch corner the wounded hag atop her tower. She attempts to blind the ogre, to no avail. The paladin manages to cut one of her hands of. The hag, seeing herself doomed, in one last insane moment of retribution, runs past the paladin, and attacks the witch (doing +15ish attack at like 11+ damage, the witch is nearly one shotted, obviously). Using my boss-template, the hag gets 2 turns in 1 round. It immediately uses its next turn to curse the witch - seeing that she is in love with the paladin from her dreams, the hag says "With my dying breath, i deny you satisfaction in life as you denied mine..." and uses bestow curse to render the witch infertile and get -4 con permanently. The witch goes unconscious. The ogre goes into a rage again, grabs the witch for hurting his squishy, and then proceeds to called shot her to the spine and snap her like a twig, paralyzing her from the waist down and throws her, 30 foot down, into the mud below the tower. The mud softens the fall somewhat, the hag takes only minor damage, but being paralyzed, she tries futility to claw away invisibly. The mud reveals her location easily. The paladin, also coming to love the witch, at this point is COMPLETELY berserk, jumps off the 30 foot tower, does a leaping charge and falls on the hag and finish's her off - cleaving her in half in the rain/mud. The witch survives, they both confess there love, blah blah blah mushy stuff, and kretch keeps the hag's head to add to his loincloth. Why? Because he can. The town celebrates the pc's victory, the mayor rewards them, and - gives them a plot hook - he gives them a house wagon, supplied to last a week or two, two horses, and the money to go to the city to get the witch's curse removed. The game ends with them saying there farewells, one of the npc's in the village joining them for the trip, the ogre driving the wagon, and the pc's inside going to sleep for the week-road trip.


Thoughts? >_> also the ogrekin was a ogrekin human/barbarian 1, CR 2... helped the fight quite a bit, but not enough to take glory/etc off the pc's. The pcs reached level 2 (using slow exp progression) upon defeating the hag. They have quite a bit of magic items now despite there level - robe of bones, cloak of shadows (elvenkind, but black), slippers of spider climbing, and a rusty-colored bag of tricks (the hag used to summon wolves in the final fight).

This was the first game ive dmed in like... 7 years. This was just the basic last-half of the game, and i skipped the two mini-side quests i gave the paladin based on his religion (paladin of pharasma - the temple asked him to have a sermon when the priest was ill, and the town docter asked him to collect plants, which the witch had in her garden by her shack, raising his rep in town). So any criticism would be nice.

Oh, and lastly - i let the pc's buy off a flaw each due to the conclusion of this chapter/etc. The witch lost her nightmare flaw, and the paladin lost his squeamish flaw. Considering how much blood/gore/etc there was in the game, im surprised he managed to even MOVE. I figure after all that he deserved to have it paid off.

[Cieyrin]

Sounds like you handled it admirably and, though I thought the curse seemed a bit extreme with that Con penalty, it sounds like your players enjoyed it. Kudos on making it work out and getting the hag worn down a bit and throwing in some extra help to even the odds while keeping it a dangerous confrontation. If you should decide to make an adventure log of it, I wouldn't mind being able to read it. :smallbiggrin:

[Kol Korran]

If you should decide to make an adventure log of it, I wouldn't mind being able to read it. :smallbiggrin:

me too! it seems like it was a splendid game. a nice combo- the paladin, the witch, and the ogre. i loved the way of the build up, and how it pertained to the party.

a nice read, probably much better play. nicely done! :smallsmile: