first time player. help with my crit rogue

[mighty barry]

So Im going to post what i have so far with my build and any advice would be amazing! I was originally going to use two weapon fighting with this build but wolf fang strike just seems to amazing to pass up. we are also starting at lvl 4
Level 1: human rogue
penetrating strike, and craven are my two feats
level 2: warblade
blood in the water is my stance
wolf fang strike and sudden leap are the only 2 i have so far.
Power critical for the feat
Level 3 swashbucker
daring outlaw and power crit. With free weapon Finn
level 4 rogue
evasion
level 5 swashbuckler
grace
level 6 swashbucker
telling blow
staggering strike and insightful strike.
This is what i have so far and i am wanting to get lightning mace eventually. This character was originally suppose to wield keen kukris but with this build i think a scimi is better. They will also have the laminated feature for the plus to damage and crit mod. Just wondering what people think of my build and advice for improvement.

[mighty barry]

Another option i was thinkin of was goin for more sneak attack damage since with penetrating strike i can always hit with and getting the weapon enhancement that gives 2. d 6 damage when i sneak attack. Getting rid of power critical until a later level and getting lightning mace by 6 and then improved critical at nine.

[SleepyShadow]

The only Penetrating Strike I am aware of is the alternate class feature that allows you to deal half sneak attack damage to things normally immune. If that is what you are thinking of, that will free up your level 1 feat slot. If I am wrong, please list the source of the feat.

You'd have to take Power Critical as your 6th level feat, since it requires +4 BAB and Weapon Focus.

Personally, I do not think focusing in critical hits is a good idea. There are far too many things out there immune to them.

[Urpriest]

I don't see anything in there that allows you to use Weapon Finesse with a Scimitar. Or do you plan to be Str-based?

[Glimbur]

There's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets you multiclass Rogue and Swashbuckler better. Consider that when you have a feat slot open for it.

Why are you planning on using Lightning Maces with scimitars?

Are you aiming for more skills or more BAB? That decides if you should go rogue-heavy or swashbuckler heavy. Some of the rogue special abilities are pretty nice (Crippling strike, for example) and swashbuckler class features are nothing to write home about.

Relying on critical hits is not reliable, but if it works well enough for your table and you have fun go for it.

[Frog Dragon]

Luckily, a lot of the usual crit fisher tactics actually activate on threatening a critical, which means they work even against enemies immune to crits. Blood in the Water and Lightning Maces go in this category. Also, Lightning Maces for scimitars (aptitude, I presume?) goes in the questionable rule interpretations category.

[Vegan Zombie]

Penetrating strike is home brew fom Dandwiki. Avoid that site like the plague.

Daring Outlaw can't be takin until 6th level I believe due to prereqs.

[mighty barry]

Yea i missed some things while looking over this apparently lol. .
I thought penetrating did full dmg which is why i had it. So that feat spot is free.

and i didn't know weapon finesse didn't work with them so i will most likely go back to the kukris.

The main reason i wanted lightning mace was because of the extra attack. And i went swashbucker for the better bab but Im not seeing many feats after lightning mace that seem that useful so Im starting to think that going more rogue would be better i just really wanted insightful strike from the swashbucker.

I wanted to focus in criticals for fun but i may just get the improved crit at nine so it could give me a extra attack with lightning mace. And i could do more sneak attack damage that way.
And ill definitely check out that book when i get home!

[Krazzman]

Yea i missed some things while looking over this apparently lol. .
I thought penetrating did full dmg which is why i had it. So that feat spot is free.

and i didn't know weapon finesse didn't work with them so i will most likely go back to the kukris.

The main reason i wanted lightning mace was because of the extra attack. And i went swashbucker for the better bab but Im not seeing many feats after lightning mace that seem that useful so Im starting to think that going more rogue would be better i just really wanted insightful strike from the swashbucker.

I wanted to focus in criticals for fun but i may just get the improved crit at nine so it could give me a extra attack with lightning mace. And i could do more sneak attack damage that way.
And ill definitely check out that book when i get home!

I think the Warblades Aptitudes Weapon Ability allows to treat scimitars to be used with weapon finesse. But at is has been mentioned it is sort of unclear and requires a bit of interpretation. If your DM runs along with this it's ok.

[gorfnab]

Penetrating strike is home brew fom Dandwiki. Avoid that site like the plague.

I think he means Penetrating Strike ACF for Rogues on page 13 of Dungeonscape.

[mighty barry]

Since i don't plan to be super feat heavy i will probably go more rogue but is the insightful strike worth going out to get

[mighty barry]

Thanks for the input guys. Very much appreciated i think i got him done until six now. And he is legit

[SleepyShadow]

I think the Warblades Aptitudes Weapon Ability allows to treat scimitars to be used with weapon finesse.

It just allows them to change around the weapon they have Weapon Focus in if they have the feat at all.

[Keld Denar]

Even with a 30% crit chance (Imp Critical with a 17-20 range weapon), until you get to much higher levels where you make 4+ attacks per round, Punishing Stance is going to give you more average damage per hit over the course of a normal combat than Blood in the Water will. Punishing Stance applies to ALL hits, even if you don't crit. If you don't crit at all on your first combat round, you'll already be several points of damage behind Punishing Stance, and the break even point is about 3 crits deep. Most combats won't be lasting that long.

Just something to think about.

EDIT: Something to think about. Shadow Blade gives you +dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons like daggers or short swords. If your Dex is 18 or higher, thats basically starting with 4 crits worth of hits with Blood in the Water. You'll put out FAR more damage with Shadow Blade than you will in an average combat with Blood in the Water, on average. Plus, you also gain the benefits of a useful Shadow Hand stance like Island of Blades for easy flanking or Assassin's Stance for another +7ish damage per hit. That means swapping Swordsage for your Warblade levels. This also picks you up a couple of useful maneuvers like Distracting Ember for solo-flanking. You can still get Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike, since Swordsages get Tiger Claw as well.

Crit fishing generally takes too long to get ramped up, and by the time it does, the combat is already pretty much over. The only time I see it REALLY taking off is with Aptitude Weapon abuse, which I can almost guarantee won't get approved by your DM simply because it'll take 20 minutes to resolve your turn.

[Vegan Zombie]

I think he means Penetrating Strike ACF for Rogues on page 13 of Dungeonscape.

Ah my bad. I made the mistake of first discovering that feat before I knew what a pile of garbage Dandwiki was and bringing it to my table :smallbiggrin:

To OP, a 3 level dip in Swashbuckler is very handy for insightful strike and weapon finesse, your not wrong in thinking this. Especially if your a high INT rogue with craven, it can really add up on your sneak attack die.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

if you are going crit rogue, pick up Telling Blow from Complete Scoundrel. Allows Sneak Attack damage on a critical.

[mighty barry]

Yea i can see that the crit potential but it just isn't sounding as good to me now.
@keld since i about figure out how to quote stuff on my phone. Anyways i really want assassins stance and weapon aptitude but doesn't assassins stance require two levels in swordsage to get? If there is an easy way for me to get them easily let me know. Just figured out the quote on phone but i don't like it

And i have 17 dex right now and14 int so i will be picking up shadow blade at 8 that would make me go with the Kukri

[Keld Denar]

Well, you could take 1 level of Swordsage and spend a feat on Martial Stance (well, 2 feats due to prereqs). Really, though, 2 levels of Swordsage are a pretty good deal. You get Wisdom to AC for free (which is nice even if your Wisdom is only 12) and you get access to a couple of Swordsage maneuvers.

I'd build like this, if I was you:

1 Rogue1 Craven
2 Swash1 Weapon Finesse
3 Rogue2 Two Weapon Fighting
4 Rogue3
5 Swordsage1
6 Swash2 Daring Outlaw
7 Swash3
8 Swordage2
9 Rogue4 Shadow Blade
10+ Swash 4-14 Imp TWF/GTWF

You'll end up with Assassin's Stance + effectively 18 levels of Rogue for 11d6 SA. For maneuvers, you'll want stuff like Distracting Ember, Cloak of Deception, Sudden Leap, and Shadow Jaunt. For stats, you'll want to focus on Int and Dex first and foremost, with Con and Wis being secondary, then Str and finally Cha. You'll have to use Short Swords instead of Kukri past level 9, since a Kukri isn't a Shadow Hand weapon, but other that that, you are good.

EDIT: If human, take Able Learner at 1st. If flaws are allowed, it might also be good to pick up Darkstalker as well, and possibly bump up TWFing to 1st.

[mighty barry]

I like that alot and will most likely t
ext exactly maybe changing a thing or two. If i ever decide what exactly i want lol i will post it here when finished. Again thank you everyone!!!

[mighty barry]

so i was looking through things and i was wondering if there was any way to attack with a full action as a standard. and is a full attack include a swift?

[Keld Denar]

Well, if you look around for methods of Pounce and other Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), you'll get a pretty good idea as to how you can full attack every round with less effort.

At low levels when you only have a BAB of +5 or less, Wolf Fang Strike does exactly what you want. At higher levels, you are looking for ways to move as a swift action or free action so you can still full attack. There really aren't a lot of ways to do a true full attack as a standard action, or any that I can really think of off the top of my head.

[mighty barry]

So this is what i have so far.
Level one rogue
craven and able learner
level two rogue
level three swashbucker
two weapon fight
deadly precision and weapon Finn
lever four rogue
dark stalker
level five sword sage
with those you listed above
level six swashbuckler
daring outlaw
level seven swashbucker
insightful strike
lever eight swordsage
assassins dance
level nine shadow blade.
Was wondering what stance to take for the first sage level. Also getting weapon enchant that gives 2d. Six when i successfully sneak attack. I was thinkin island of blades may be best

[Keld Denar]

If Deadly Precision is the feat I think it is (refill 1s on SA dice), then its not a very good feat. It only results in like, .16 damage per SA die per hit increase. It takes just over 6 dice for this to equal 1 average damage extra per hit, and about 13 dice to equal +2 damage per hit. Contrast with Weapon Specialization which also grants +2 damage per hit and is generally regarded as a low value feat, and you see that it just doesn't add up.

And for your 1st level Swordsage stance, you definitely definitely want Island of Blades. You can switch between that and Assassins stance to make sure you qualify for SA on nearly every hit. Remember, like 36% of your damage comes from Craven, and over 90% of your damage comes from a combination of Craven and SA, so qualifying for SA with Island of Blades is better than not qualifying for SA in Assassins stance.

[mighty barry]

True i could take it at level twelve if needed. Is there any feat yet would suggest any feats to replace it? I like savvy rogue but i don't think i quite understand it all.

[mighty barry]

True i could take it at level twelve if needed. Is there any feat yet would suggest any feats to replace it? I like savvy rogue but i don't think i quite understand it all. Also with the weapon enhancement deadly precision it gives me an extra 2d 6 when i hit with a sneak attack. And it says Basicly when wielding this i do what i stated above but would that count for my other weapon to

[Keld Denar]

There is a difference between the Deadly Precision feat and the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement. The weapon enhancement is good. The feat is bad.

Savvy Rogue is a situationally good feat. What it does is augment the rogue special abilities. The more of these special abilities you have, the more benefit you get from Savvy Rogue. If you don't have any of those special abilities, the feat doesn't do anything for you. Since the first special ability comes at 10th level and you are only planning on taking 4 Rogue levels, the feat won't benefit you at all.

As far as other feats you can take, you can seldom go wrong with Improved Initiative. I'm also a fan of Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. It gives you a second save against most negative disabling effects for very little cost.

[mighty barry]

If i use the weapon enhancement on only one weapon when i attack with the 2nd sword would i still get the extra2 d 6.
yea think i will take improved intuitive. Thanks again for the help

[Rubik]

I could've sworn there was a feat out there that granted you a bonus to attack rolls in lieu of sneak attack damage dice, but I can't find it. Combine that with Power Attack and a 2-hander for whenever you're up against a foe immune to sneak attacks.

Anyone know where that feat is?

[edit] Dragon Compendium -- Precise Strike. Trade as many dice of sneak attack as you want for +2 circumstance bonus to hit per die.

[mighty barry]

That sounds amazing i will definitely have to work that in at later levels.

[mighty barry]

So with flaws i can get two extra feats and human can have three. Was wondering if human or whisper gnome would be more beneficial. The extra feat with humans would be dragonfire strike since my dm said it could by pass sa immunity