Updated: Mind Blank and other spells to hide from magic

[ILM]

I'm building a character whose story is that his name was taken from him (yes yes, I know) and he's turned that into an asset by becoming the perfect spy: the guy who doesn't exist. In order to materialize that concept, I'm trying to get him to be undetectable, un-divinable, un-anything basically. The epitome of can't-find-him-if-he-doesn't-want-you-to.

With that in mind, and provided at high level I stick a permanent mind blank or 3rd Eye Conceal on him, are there any ways left for one to gather information about him? If so, how do I counter them?

[Ashtagon]

Protect against what exactly?

The single best way to gather intel about someone is to interrogate the people he has met.

Charmed or dominated stooges to track your hero would also work quite well.

[Lostbutseeking]

Metafaculty (seer 9 power) explicitly breaches any protection barring epic magic/powers.

[ILM]

It is fortunate then that we don't play with psionics. :smallsmile:

The very first magic item he'll get is a hat of disguise. He's a whisper gnome but will spend his entire career switching between different appearances, all made to be as completely unremarkable as possible. Average height, average build, average hair color, no distinctive marks at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Metafaculty (seer 9 power) explicitly breaches any protection barring epic magic/powers.

That's debatable. It definitely overcomes Psionic Mind Blank (and thus Third Eye Conceal) but whether it overcomes the spell Mind Blank is unclear.

To the OP: Yes, Mind Blank covers pretty much everything.

[Malachei]

This may be of interest to you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51362

Personally, I'd say Mind Blank stopping "all information gathering by divination" should be interpreted broadly, because it is an 8th level spell.

[Lostbutseeking]

That's debatable. It definitely overcomes Psionic Mind Blank (and thus Third Eye Conceal) but whether it overcomes the spell Mind Blank is unclear.

To the OP: Yes, Mind Blank covers pretty much everything.

Not that it matters to the OP but i'm not sure how it is debatable.


Metafaculty can defeat spells, powers, and special abilities such as screen or mind blank (or even a wish spell) that normally obscure clairsentience powers. You can attempt a caster level check (DC 6 + caster level of the creator of the obscuring effect) to defeat these sorts of otherwise impervious defenses.

Metafaculty is defeated by epic powers, epic spells, and epic special abilities that obscure divinations and clairsentience powers.

[Answerer]

IIRC, there's a Spymaster (Complete Adventurer) PrC out there that gives a lot of these sorts of bonuses.

[ILM]

I thought of that one but I've built him around a chassis of Beguiler and it doesn't advance casting...

[Aeryr]

vecna blooded (MM5) for more umph against divination.

[Yorrin]

vecna blooded

I was thinking either this or, if Epic Level the Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a) PrC.

[Andion Isurand]

The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness might help make him better able to avoid being perceived.

[Hirax]

Don't forget pass without trace, as well. Mind blank stops people from using contact other plane, etc. to get information about you, but not your wake.

[ILM]

Darkstalker's already in the mix but thanks anyway. :smallsmile:

Didn't know Vecna-blooded though and wow, it's well worth the LA for this guy. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Hirax]

Nothing to do with that, I mean footprints and scent aren't blocked by mindblank. Pass without trace lasts for hours/level, so it's an easy addition.

[Keld Denar]

If you are a caster, 5 levels of Unseen Seer will give you a pretty awesome form of Nondetection. In fact, I'd recommend you be a caster in any regard, since casting gives you more options for avoiding detection such as invisibility, teleportation, and divination.

[ILM]

@Hirax: I was actually replying to the guys above you, but thanks for the suggestion, pass without trace works well. Maybe a custom continuous item if I can't find a way to cast it or find an item that already does this? (could've sworn I'd seen some sandals or other footwear that provides that)

@Keld: Yeah, those were my thoughts too. At the moment he's a Beguiler 8/SA Fighter 1/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 6/ Abjurant Champion 4, though I'll need to take off either 1 level of Beguiler, Unseen Seer or AC to make room for Vecna-Blooded.

My immediate concern is Word crapping out on me as I was starting the 4th page of his background. :smallfurious:

[Marnath]

@Hirax: I was actually replying to the guys above you, but thanks for the suggestion, pass without trace works well. Maybe a custom continuous item if I can't find a way to cast it or find an item that already does this? (could've sworn I'd seen some sandals or other footwear that provides that)


Gwaeron's Boots, 6000 gold. You have continous pass without trace and you produce no scent so you are immune to being tracked by creatures with the Scent ability. They're in the Magic Item Compendium.

[Answerer]

Beguiler 8/SA Fighter 1/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 6/ Abjurant Champion 4, though I'll need to take off either 1 level of Beguiler, Unseen Seer or AC to make room for Vecna-Blooded.
I'd personally ditch the level of SA Fighter and take Martial Study (something Shadow Hand) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for the +2d6 Sneak Attack damage. You're taking few enough levels of Unseen Seer that you have time to wait until 12th level for it.

That is, of course, assuming that doing so doesn't interfere with Abjurant Champion, which... it probably does, unless something else in there is giving Martial Weapon Proficiency...

[ILM]

I'd personally ditch the level of SA Fighter and take Martial Study (something Shadow Hand) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) for the +2d6 Sneak Attack damage. You're taking few enough levels of Unseen Seer that you have time to wait until 12th level for it.

That is, of course, assuming that doing so doesn't interfere with Abjurant Champion, which... it probably does, unless something else in there is giving Martial Weapon Proficiency...
That's a good idea, but I don't know if I have the feat available. The only one up in the air at the moment is Arcane Disciple for the Celerity domain... Weird thing though: since US doesn't have SA as a prerequisite, what happens if you don't have any SA at all when you enter the class? Do you gain a sneak attack progression or do you gain nothing at all?

IIRC, AC only requires one martial weapon proficiency and I believe Beguiler has that.

[Keld Denar]

If you don't have SA, Unseen Seer doesn't give SA. If you don't have one of the 3 types of bonus damage (SA, SS, or Skirmish), you don't get anything from that feature.

AC also requires 3 martial weapons, IIRC.

[ILM]

AC also requires 3 martial weapons, IIRC.
I just checked, it's "at least one". But moot point, I don't have the 2 feats to spend on Assassin's Stance, so the Fighter level stays (the extra BAB also helped, to be honest - as did the +2 to initiative from the Hit & Run variant).

[Keld Denar]

Ah, I must have been remembering Swiftblade.

[peacenlove]

(Limited) Wish duplicating of spells/powers overcomes mind blank (and most other forms of protection such as death ward), since (limited) wish is a Universal and carries no descriptor.

Same goes for Miracle, an Evocation effect, and if there is a Conjuration (creation) or (summoning) or Evocation with other descriptors, then the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration line would override them too because it is an Illusion (shadow) spell.

None of the aforementioned spells inherit the duplicated spell descriptor.

[Hirax]

(Limited) Wish duplicating of spells/powers overcomes mind blank (and most other forms of protection such as death ward), since (limited) wish is a Universal and carries no descriptor.

Same goes for Miracle, an Evocation effect, and if there is a Conjuration (creation) or (summoning) or Evocation with other descriptors, then the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration line would override them too because it is an Illusion (shadow) spell.

None of the aforementioned spells inherit the duplicated spell descriptor.

Uh, mind blank specifically says wish, miracle, and limited wish don't work against it?

[ericgrau]

Hide in plain sight, shadow armor enchant for +15 hide and silent moves armor enchant for +15 move silently. Dust of disappearance is a good additional backup that provides a few rounds of greater invisibility not only to you but to others in the area. It foils magic like see invisibility or true seeing. Expensive but uber.

[peacenlove]

Uh, mind blank specifically says wish, miracle, and limited wish don't work against it?

I stand corrected then, I was going purely by descriptor involvement.

[Chronos]

I just checked, it's "at least one". But moot point, I don't have the 2 feats to spend on Assassin's Stance, so the Fighter level stays (the extra BAB also helped, to be honest - as did the +2 to initiative from the Hit & Run variant). It'd still probably be better to take a level of Swordsage instead. The free Weapon Focuses would keep you at the same total attack bonus (unless you're already taking Weapon Focus as a prereq for something, in which case it frees up a feat), you'd get 2d6 SA instead of just 1d6, you'd get a bunch of other useful tricks (especially check out Shadow Hand), and you'd also keep your skills high. The only drawbacks would be that the loss of BAB specifically might occasionally stop one iterative attack a round, and you'd have one less hit point on average, which is, all told, an easy tradeoff.

[Answerer]

That does presume a reasonable interpretation of how martial adepts' Stances work. If the DM reads "you start with" as "when you take the first level of this class, no matter what level that happens at" then you can't take Assassin's Stance.

I'd... probably have a few words to say to such a DM, but whatever.

[Chronos]

True, and it also assumes that Assassin's Stance counts as "having the Sneak Attack class feature". Both are, I think, reasonable assumptions.

[Jack_Simth]

With that in mind, and provided at high level I stick a permanent mind blank or 3rd Eye Conceal on him, are there any ways left for one to gather information about him? If so, how do I counter them?
Depends on specific game, and DM interpretation.

For some, True Seeing, See Invisibility, and Arcane Sight will still spot you, for others, it won't (based on the "all divinations" vs. the "mind" bit).

[tyckspoon]

Depends on specific game, and DM interpretation.

For some, True Seeing, See Invisibility, and Arcane Sight will still spot you, for others, it won't (based on the "all divinations" vs. the "mind" bit).

Note that True Seeing and See Invis don't do anything to counter mundane stealth; if you have a good Hide/Move Silent and a strong version of Hide In Plain Sight, you can stand right in front of somebody and they can try to True See all they want. It won't do anything for them unless they can beat your skills. Arcane Sight can be obnoxious just because you might not think to mask the dozens of magic auras you're carrying around.

[ILM]

Ah, good point: how do I keep him from lighting up on every Detect Magic and Arcane Sight cast around him? Not only does he have a bunch of magic items (that Nystul's Magic Aura may take care of), he does have a number of long-duration spells and effects on him.

edit: actually, now that I think about it, Nondetection would take care of all that, wouldn't it?

[Hirax]

I don't think nondetection would do anything more than mind blank would. I see the argument for both working, but I don't think either would work against arcane sight.

[Andion Isurand]

The luckstealer PrC, normally halfling only, has a Subtle Magic feature that helps with having your spell's auras detected.

I used that feature in a homebrewed prestige class... the Agent Arcanist.

[Draz74]

Ah, good point: how do I keep him from lighting up on every Detect Magic and Arcane Sight cast around him? Not only does he have a bunch of magic items (that Nystul's Magic Aura may take care of), he does have a number of long-duration spells and effects on him.

edit: actually, now that I think about it, Nondetection would take care of all that, wouldn't it?

Personally, I've always maintained that just using the mundane Hide skill should protect you from being spotted with Detect Magic or Arcane Sight.

Actual RAW on the issue is ambiguous (much like Tumble vs. Thicket of Blades): Hide says you won't be seen, Detect Magic says you (or your items' auras) will be seen. It's up to the DM.

Some DMs rule that Hide trumps Arcane Sight but not Detect Magic, since Hide is presumed to involve taking cover behind opaque objects of some type, and Detect Magic works through solid objects while Arcane Sight requires line of sight. But if I were the DM, there's no way I'd let a mere cantrip beat a highly-invested skill use. :smallyuk:

[ericgrau]

A thin sheet of lead blocks detect magic and therefore arcane sight. For all the buffs targetting you all you need is a lead-lined suit. A well made mundane face mask (disguise check) with lead lining should handle the face. Ya that doesn't fix a hat of disguise, but you could always do both.