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UndertakerSheep
2012-04-29, 03:08 PM
Warning: this is a fairly long read, especially because I feel like I need to write everything down so I can see all of my thoughts. I put a TL;DR just beneath the spoiler if you want to help, but don’t want to read that much. Also please forgive me for my English. I’m Dutch so there are bound to be some mistakes here and there.
I play with a group of five people, three guys and two girls, all around the age of 19/20.

Before I start complaining/asking for help, I’ll give you guys a little background about our little D&D group. We started playing together almost over two years ago now, when three of my friends (all guys like me) heard that I played D&D. They had heard about it from other people and wanted to give it a try, so we decided to play together. I was going to be the DM, because I had the most experience. A total of two sessions as a player as experience. Needless to say, I was far from a good DM.

Over the two years we played a lot of 3.5 and really got the hang of the game. I was the DM for 99% of all sessions and everyone has told me that I have grown into a good DM. There is one thing I have a hard time with however, and that’s dealing why my players behavior.

One of my players had issues remembering certain rules. He would ask us the same questions every session. Questions like ‘’Can I take a 5 ft step and then charge?’’ and ‘’Can I crit/sneak attack the skeleton?’’. Over time we got annoyed by it, I told him about that and he promised to do his best to change. It took a while, but he did change and now he’s one of my ‘favorite’ players.

About a year ago we decided to expand our group and add two girls to our group. This decision was mostly made because they were the only two from our group of friends who didn’t hang out with us every Friday night (we D&D on Fridays). It was around this time that I started to notice some problems.

One of the girls who joined us was really excited about the game. She had some experience playing video RPGs and got a hang of the game pretty quickly. What she at first lacked in experience, she made up with enthusiasm and roleplaying.

The other girl joined us just so she wouldn’t be alone on Friday night. Her only experience with fantasy was probably Harry Potter. She’s got a form of ADD so she’s always got a lot of energy. Which sadly enough wasn’t put into the game.

This is where things got out of hand for the first time. The second girl didn’t really get the game’s rules even after we explained them time after time and she kept distracting other people from the game. When one player was deciding whether to charge or go full defense, she was discussing out of game things with other people. Even worse, she would laugh/giggle louder than we would speak. It was (and still is) a very annoying thing. Most of the players would ignore her or only give a little bit of attention to her, but her best friend would get too distracted by her.

We decided as a group to just ‘let it be’, because it was who she was. It eventually got to the point where she would give her best friend a weird face whenever her friend was roleplaying. When her character was supposed to do something, or someone asked her “What do you do?” she would either shut down or decide to something stupid/weird, such as roll through an obviously evil pentagram.

A few months ago one of my older players snapped during a session. One of the two girls gave him a bit of critism about his playing style and he suddenly jumped up and started shouting how the game was a lot more fun before ‘they’ joined and how he wished we could go back to play without them. He then looked at me and told me that as long as they were playing with us, he would not play. He then marched out of the room but my other two older players managed to calm him down and he joined again.

All was well for a while and we started to give the second girl a lot more room/time to learn the game. She didn’t quite reach a level anywhere near the other players, but she managed to play through every session. She was still distracting people a lot, but not as much as she used to. Then all of the sudden, the player who had snapped earlier started to complain again. But instead of getting mad and shout, he would make short remarks about other people. Most of them are towards the player who had a tougher time learning the game and to the first girl. Why I do not know, but most of his arguments came from way back. Things that were mostly handled right about now.

As a person, I do not tolerate such behavior. You don’t call your friends names and you sure as hell don’t do anything to make their lives harder on purpose. As a DM tho, I am not quite sure what I should do. I know I have to talk to him about it, but he’s known to respond to criticism with anger. He can spend hours complaining about others, but once someone makes a negative remark about him he quickly goes on the defense. Some of my players have decided not to tell him anything negative during the game, for the sake of keeping the mood.

Last week I decided to talk to my group about the second girl in D&D and how much they think she has improved over the year. Much to my surprise all but one of my players wanted to give her one more chance, but after that they think she should leave or be kicked out. They feel that she makes the game less fun by pulling everyone ‘out of the zone’. I totally understand where they are coming from and I feel the same way. However, she is a very sensitive girl especially about not being let into groups. I’m sure that if I tell her she can’t play with us anymore, she’ll feel really bad about it every week. Outside of D&D, we’re all very close friends and I do not want to make a friend cry.

I’m not looking for you guys to solve my problems. I’m hoping some of you might share your insights or even similar stories so I can get a good opinion from someone who doesn’t have anything to do with the group, but understands the game we play. So how do I handle this? I know I have to talk to the guy about the things he says around the gaming table and I will, but I’m not quite sure how to say it without him getting mad at me and (most likely) leaving the group all together. I don’t know what to do with the girl anymore. I’ve tried everything as far as I know, and I don’t feel like there’s more I can do. I’ve read about ‘’wallflowers’’ but she’s not quite the typical wallflower, because she’s so noisy she constantly distracts other people.

TLDR: I have one guy in the group who is constantly insulting two of my other players and he’s too insecure about himself to take criticism well. I have one girl in the group who is constantly breaking the mood and distracting people because she’s always talking about out of game stuff very loudly. I know for a fact that she will be very sad if she gets to hear she can't play with us anymore. What do I do? They are all very close friends and there's no other D*D group around where we live.

Help me, Giant-In-The-Playground Kenobi, you are my only hope.

Edit: I feel like I should add that the second girl is 19 years old, but behaves more or less like a 12 year old all the time. We have to take that into consideration with everything we do together and it has really taken it's toll on one of my players who now refuses to consider her ''12 year old needs''.

Kish
2012-04-29, 03:13 PM
It...sounds like one of your players isn't really interested in playing D&D at all, just in "an activity with my friends, even if I don't like the particular activity and can't really be bothered to not disrupt it." The rest of your players want to play D&D.

One thing I'm less than clear on--you said that all but one of them want to give her one more chance and then kick her out. Is the "all but one" that the guy who blew up at her wants to kick her out now, or is it that her best friend doesn't want to plan for kicking her out at all?

I think you have a decision to make. If you want to play D&D, then you'll need to kick her out, because she doesn't. If you want to "do something with my friends" as she apparently does, then you should look for another shared activity, one she can get into rather than treating with open contempt.

UndertakerSheep
2012-04-29, 03:33 PM
Everyone thinks she really doesn't want to play the game itself, but when someone confronts her about it she says she does want to and promises to try her best to learn and play the game. She even bought a player's handbook (only one of my other players have one). I agree with your suggestion, but friday is usually the only day we can get together. And in the eyes of most of my players, every friday not spent on D&D is a wasted friday.

The guy who doesn't want to give her one more chance is actually none of those two. It's the guy who had trouble remembering the rules when he started playing himself. He wants to give her more than one chance and is suggesting all sorts of compromises just so we can stay together as a group. He feels bad about her 'ruining' the game, but he says it's okay as long as it keeps everyone happy.

But what do I do about the player who gets angry while? I do not feel that removing one player out of the group will make him calm down. I know I have to talk to him about it, but I fear he will not take it well and leave. I do not want to lose him as a player (he's a very good strategist and a good player in general) but I also don't want him to behave like that on the table.

It looks as if I'm just going to have to risk losing him if his behavior continues on like this.

Kish
2012-04-29, 03:50 PM
Actually, I didn't catch the bit about her having ADD. Now I have another suggestion, though I don't know if it's one you can appropriately make to her.

Maybe she needs something else to do during the game. Something non-disruptive, like knitting or crocheting or playing on a DS with the sound off--just something that can occupy part of her attention. I know someone who has ADHD, and she's described how, if she tries to do one thing at once, she finds it impossible to concentrate. She reads while she's cooking, cross-stitches while watching TV, etc.; when her bosses at work insist she do NOTHING BUT HER JOB, she gets half as much work done as when they let her do something else at the same time as her job.

I don't know what to do about the other problem player.

UndertakerSheep
2012-04-29, 03:53 PM
That actually sounds like an idea we could try. Whenever people 'ignore' her during the game, she usually resorts to dice stacking or something similar.

I'll talk to her about it and see what she thinks about the idea. Thanks for suggesting it!

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-29, 03:57 PM
Let's break this down

The other girl joined us just so she wouldn’t be alone on Friday night. Her only experience with fantasy was probably Harry Potter. She’s got a form of ADD so she’s always got a lot of energy. Which sadly enough wasn’t put into the game.
Problem Player #1 -- She doesn't want to game, but she wants to be there. I'll call her The Socialite.


A few months ago one of my older players snapped during a session. One of the two girls gave him a bit of critism about his playing style and he suddenly jumped up and started shouting how the game was a lot more fun before ‘they’ joined and how he wished we could go back to play without them. He then looked at me and told me that as long as they were playing with us, he would not play. He then marched out of the room but my other two older players managed to calm him down and he joined again.
Problem Player #2 -- he's a gamer who has suddenly found himself in a group he doesn't like and can't take much more of it. I'll call him The Man On Edge.

These are your Problem Players. Now, let's see how you're handling them

Last week I decided to talk to my group about the second girl in D&D and how much they think she has improved over the year. Much to my surprise all but one of my players wanted to give her one more chance, but after that they think she should leave or be kicked out. They feel that she makes the game less fun by pulling everyone ‘out of the zone’. I totally understand where they are coming from and I feel the same way. However, she is a very sensitive girl especially about not being let into groups. I’m sure that if I tell her she can’t play with us anymore, she’ll feel really bad about it every week. Outside of D&D, we’re all very close friends and I do not want to make a friend cry.
This is a good start.

First, take a look at this reference document (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) to hopefully spare you some future angst.

Now, The Socialite
Inviting The Socialite to the game was a mistake because she was not at all interested in the activity and you only invited her to be inclusive. If you wanted to spend more time with these two girls you should have picked an activity you'd all enjoy. If your biggest concern was that The Socialite wouldn't have anything to do on Fridays there are other ways to give her a social life than to drag her into a game she obviously has no interest in playing.

But what's done is done. The easiest way to relieve a lot of strain on this group is to take The Socialite aside and ask her if she actually wants to keep playing. Let her know that, if she says no, nobody will think less of her and you all will find time to do other things together that are fun. If she says no, then do just that -- let her bow out gracefully and think about other ways for all of you to spend time together outside of gaming. If she says yes then tell her that she needs to work hard to understand how the game works and to "join in" with everyone else; if she can't do that you will have to ask her to leave.

If you do not do this, then one of two things will happen:
(1) The Man On Edge will become embittered and end up ruining this game if The Socialite does not. His behavior -- which is not excusable -- is exacerbated by The Socialite's lack of focus. He knows that she is not interested in the game and, I suspect, he treats roleplaying as Serious Business. More on him later, but a frustrated Player -- no matter how good he is normally -- will become a Problem Player over time and ultimately poison the whole experience.

If you're lucky, he'll only ruin this one game. If you're not, this trauma will damage his relationships with the other Players (and perhaps you) for some time to come.

(2) If The Man On Edge doesn't explode, then the group may rebel and ostracize The Socialite. Currently they're frustrated but willing to give her one more chance. You do not want The Socialite to take that chance unless you are certain she is going to succeed. You worry that being kicked out will be damaging to her; it will be so much worse if the group, and not just you, ask her to leave. Alone, you can manage things such that she is let down gently -- you are asking her to leave because "this game isn't fun for you and I don't think it is working out well" not because she is a menace to everyone's fun. If the other Players turn on her, message management becomes difficult.


Now, The Man On Edge:
His behavior is wrong, but appears to be the result of a strain that can be removed. The Socialite's unserious approach to the game is likely clashing with his desire to, well, play a Serious RPG. It is not clear whether Girl B (the enthusiastic novice) is bothering him too, but I will assume for now that she is not. Removing the Socialite now will not fix The Man On Edge because he has already sunk into "bitter Player" territory; it will, however, stop the rot. With luck, The Socialite was the only problem this otherwise decent gamer had with the game and, once the game returns more "to normal" he'll stop being bitter and sarcastic and get back to doing whatever he did before.

Still, there is the chance that he has something against Girl B. If so, you need to talk with The Man On Edge to find out what his deal is. After you've resolved The Socialite, talk with The Man On Edge to see what is bothering him. If he is n00b-phobic (i.e. he hates having novice Players in games) ask him whether he can control himself while the novices are learning. If not, tell him you still want a chance to teach Girl B how to play and that you'll understand if he leaves the campaign for awhile until that's done.
The general principles to follow are these:

Talk To Your Players About Their Problems
When individuals become problems, it is because they have them. Until you talk with them to find out what is bothering them there is little to be done to resolve them. You've made some good first steps but you need to do more talking with your Problem Players to pinpoint the root of their behaviors.

Preserve The Game For The Many, Not The Few
Not all games are for all people. Sometimes you end up with a table where a minority are dissatisfied with a game that the majority (or a plurality) enjoy. You can't force the dissatisfied minority to be happy with a game they don't like, but that minority can ruin it for everyone by becoming Problem Players. If these Problem Players will not (or can not) adapt their behaviors to be more harmonious with your game then you must get them out of there, for the sake of those who are still having fun.

* * *
I hope this helps, but it sounds like you've got a fairly sticky situation.

Good luck :smallsmile:

EDIT: Oh look, new relevant information :smalltongue:

It's nice to see that The Socialite is putting real effort into getting into the game but do assure her that she doesn't have to game in order to socialize with y'all. I mean, say that if it is true -- it kind of sounds like y'all only are social while gaming.

If so, then I'd suggest making an effort to find some other activity you can do one Friday per month that The Socialite might find more fun. Board games, a trip to a movie -- something that the rest of you might not like quite as much ad D&D but which The Socialite would enjoy more. With luck, y'all will find that a Friday not spent playing RPGs need not be considered wasted :smallwink:

Kolonel
2012-04-29, 04:45 PM
The situation is not easy and I think you'll have to find a tricky solution.

When I have a problematic player (or someone who is usually not problematic, but cannot co-operate with the current team), I don't invite him next time.
I won't tell the player face to face that he is not wanted (because it's not that I don't want him to play, it's more complicated), I just "forget" to tell him that we are having a session or choose a time slot, when he won't be available.

Girl #2 seems to be the main problem here, so have a session without her.

It may seem wrong to avoid confrontation, but it works, and I tell you why in a minute, but first: don't lie to her, if she asks about the game, tell her when and where you will play, and let her come if she wants.
But don't bring the topic up yourself.

I could do this quite easily, because my players didn't really know each other that well, and we weren't meeting each other outside of the gaming sessions. (Or at least very rarely.) So everyone I didn't talk to assumed there was no game that week.
It may be harder for you with the fix group and Friday session, but if you can arrange a game without Girl#2, do it.

When your friends (and you) tell her about the game (which will no doubt be better without her interruptions) afterwards, watch her reaction.

If she'll be like "ah, yeah, whatever, [changes the topic]" that it means she is not interested in RPG-ing, and won't mind if you leave her out next time.
Problem solved!
But if she is really interested, and says things like "oh, that must have been great", she will realize that the group doesn't need her to have fun. And when that realization hits, she will feel compelled to be more productive, and she will most likely start to listen to you if you tell them the rules and how she should play.
Problem solved!

I have experienced both outcomes, so I think you should try it, even if it's not a straightforward solution.
Do this with complaining guy too, if you need to.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-29, 05:16 PM
When I have a problematic player (or someone who is usually not problematic, but cannot co-operate with the current team), I don't invite him next time.
I won't tell the player face to face that he is not wanted (because it's not that I don't want him to play, it's more complicated), I just "forget" to tell him that we are having a session or choose a time slot, when he won't be available.

Yeah, don't do this.

To begin with, being passive-aggressive isn't going to solve anything. This approach is even worse because the Subject is bound to realize that you didn't actually "forget" to tell her about the game and will feel like her friends are doing things behind her back. Which you would have been.

It's a bad way to treat your Players and a worse was to treat your friends.

JadedDM
2012-04-29, 05:53 PM
I don't know, the "The Man On Edge" as Oracle Hunter dubbed him, sounds like he might be having some underlying issues here. If he was only upset that the girl in question wasn't taking the game seriously enough, why did he claim that the game was better before 'they' joined and that he wouldn't play if 'they' were present? Sounds like he doesn't like either of the girls then. Which may or may not be a result of misogyny. (I've had this happen to me before. A player, male, feels that D&D is guys' only, and becomes increasingly resentful toward any female players.)

This is just me, personally, but I think the objective of any D&D game is to have fun. And the girl seems to be trying, even if her nature is working against her. The guy, on the other hand, seems to be being a bit of an ass, from where I'm standing.

Personally, I'd rather be in a game where everyone is having fun, even if we don't get much done, then in a super serious game where if anyone flakes at all, they risk getting kicked out. But that's just me.

Mnemnosyne
2012-04-29, 06:22 PM
I'm not quite sure about the guy - my initial reaction would be to talk to him directly, if he gets mad and walks out so be it. Let him cool down for a day or three, or a week, then try to open the conversation again, tell him you and everyone would love to see him back but the problems still need to be addressed, so that it doesn't wind up like last time where others 'managed to calm him down'. Managing to calm him down isn't what's needed, I would think, but actually getting him to acknowledge and discuss the problems he's having. If you tiptoe around his apparent inability to be criticized, then he will never change because you'll never openly discuss the problems. He may never get over it and you may lose him, but I would say that's likely a chance you must be willing to take.

As for the girl, if she really is interested in the game, I would consider trying another approach to shift her behavior to what feels more appropriate. Try to arrange for a solo session (or several) with her - explain to her openly that her behavior is rather disruptive, but you really want her there, and this might be a better way to get her more acclimated to the game and how to behave - since you're playing solo, she's directly involved the entire time. If at all possible, ease this into including one other player, so she then has time when she's not the focus of attention, but in a smaller scale setting than the entire group. As an added bonus, it should help her learn the rules better (which it sounds like she's still far behind the other players on).

In addition, Kish's suggestion of allowing her to do something else when she's not involved certainly sounds good. You need to find things to occupy her mind/time when she's not involved, but be careful that they don't occupy her time so much that she becomes too distracted to participate effectively. It's a hard balance, I suspect.

prufock
2012-04-29, 09:44 PM
There's something to be said for bluntness. You might just need to man up and grab them by the nose.

Problem Player 1 (guy): Smarten up. If you've got a legit problem we can discuss it out of game but you darn well better start acting like a grown up. Temper tantrums and snide insults to other players is not acting like a grown up, and the rest of us aren't going to put up with it. Clean it up or get out.

Problem Player 2 (girl): It's downright disrespectful to be doing a lot of cross-talking, giggling, and basically making a distraction of yourself when the game is not focused on you. If you need something to occupy yourself between turns, make it something that doesn't interfere with the rest of the group. The group's game style is semi-serious, and if you aren't going to conform with that, it's probably better if you don't play.

Is there any general reason that you can't try a 2-tiered system. Have 2 games - continue with the semi-serious one but also start a less serious one in some other system with less complex rules? It might help everyone.

UndertakerSheep
2012-04-29, 11:28 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone! Here's a quick update.

I had a good, long talk with the first girl about 'The Guy On Edge' and his behavior. It turned out that there is indeed a lot more going on than just being a hateful player. The problem obviously comes from a non-game source. But we're not quite sure what it is. He also calls her names outside of the game. The second girl's disruptive behavior probably only adds up to his frustration. Girl A has told me that the entire thing is making her feel too miserable to enjoy the game. So I'm going to 'man up' and talk to him about it. I'm not going to start a fight, just ask him why he's behaving the way he does and ask him to stop.

I haven't talked to Girl B since this post, but me and two other players agree that giving her something else to do during the sessions might be worth a try. I've held 'private' sessions with her before so she could try out the different classes. The result of that was her settling on the barbarian because it was easy to roleplay for her and it was clear what she had to do: run up and hit things. That suits the way she currently plays, but that's what we want to change. I think we might have to look into a class that makes her want to participate in things more.

I'm going to have a talk with the guy in a few hours and with the girl as soon as I can. I'll have to make sure neither of them feels like we don't want them at the table.

Thanks for all of your replies. You've all helped us more than I had first thought would happen. I'll keep you guys posted if there's any progress made today. Btw Oracle_Hunter, that document really opened my eyes on a few things. I could recognize all five of them.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-29, 11:34 PM
Btw Oracle_Hunter, that document really opened my eyes on a few things. I could recognize all five of them.
Every young (and not-so-young) geek/nerd needs to read the Geek Social Fallacies. The best thing you can do is disseminate it widely.

Good luck with everything :smallsmile:

Greyfeld85
2012-04-30, 01:56 AM
Just to add to what's already been said, you might want to decide to take a couple weeks off from the game. If there's a couple solid weeks where the players aren't forced to see one another (while you work your magic with each of them individually), the collective frustration levels may have some time to deflate a bit.

Kolonel
2012-04-30, 03:53 AM
Yeah, don't do this.

To begin with, being passive-aggressive isn't going to solve anything.
1. It's not passive-aggressive, just passive. It's the same thing when we don't invite all of our friends to a sports activity.
2. You seem to have missed the sentence where I told UndertakerSheep that he should never lie to the girl.
3. Identifying a problem does not automatically make it go away.
Confronting a player about their gaming style, and telling them that they have to change it, however, can petrify a conflict between the player and the DM (I've seen that happening with two friends), and makes it harder for the group to just move on. (They did not play together for months.)


I had a good, long talk with the first girl about 'The Guy On Edge' and his behavior. It turned out that there is indeed a lot more going on than just being a hateful player. The problem obviously comes from a non-game source. But we're not quite sure what it is. He also calls her names outside of the game. The second girl's disruptive behavior probably only adds up to his frustration. Girl A has told me that the entire thing is making her feel too miserable to enjoy the game. So I'm going to 'man up' and talk to him about it. I'm not going to start a fight, just ask him why he's behaving the way he does and ask him to stop.

That's all right, but remember to keep the game issues and real life issues separated.
Disagreeing with others on free-time activities does not mean you do not like them. And liking someone does not mean you have to tolerate everything they do or say.


That suits the way she currently plays, but that's what we want to change. I think we might have to look into a class that makes her want to participate in things more.
This, on the other hand, will most likely not work. It seems to me that she lacks enthusiasm, and you need to motivate her somehow, and changing her character probably won't be enough.
If someone is not interested in history, talking to them about Charlemagne instead of Julius Caesar won't make them eager to learn.

But try it anyway, it might do the trick.

Jornophelanthas
2012-04-30, 05:56 AM
@Kolonel:

Your approach will likely not work in this particular situation, because the players in this group are also real-life friends (who happen to use D&D as their primary means to spend time together). And you yourself indicated that it works best with people who only really know each other from roleplaying.

Excluding people from roleplaying for the good of the game would work if the people in question only treat their D&D game as recreation. However, if the game also serves as their main way of staying in touch with each other (which it does), what will happen is that friendships will turn sour.

Your method is efficient from a managerial point of view. Unfortunately, managers are typically not best friends with their subordinates.

---
I will add my voice to the crowd saying Oracle_Hunter is giving the best advice for this situation.

Silma
2012-04-30, 06:35 AM
You could try talking to them as a group. Gather them all, and pretty much "force" them to discuss the problem. Make sure you explain to all of them that your intent for doing this is to make sure that everyone is enjoying the time they spend together while gaming, and not criticizing of picking sides. Other than that, what OracleHunter said.

I've had a similar problem once, with a player who was only playing to hung out with the rest of us (cuz we're also very close friends IRL as well). I never had the chance to solve the problem myself though, cuz two of the players (the player I mentioned was one of them) decided they weren't in a mood to play right now, so I just found a couple of new players. What we did to make sure that no one is left out, was to find a gaming day that the two people who weren't gonna play were busy anyway. So, on the days when we all have free time, we can still spend time together.

Kolonel
2012-04-30, 06:41 AM
...the players in this group are also real-life friends (who happen to use D&D as their primary means to spend time together). And you yourself indicated that it works best with people who only really know each other from roleplaying.
You are right, I should have made it more clear that it doesn't work with close friends.

I agree with Oracle Hunter's solution for the Guy on edge, but not the one for the Girl.

I think she does not understand why her behavior is a problem (because she's having a good time on Fridays), and when she is told that she is disruptive, she won't know how to change it.
She may promise to pay more attention to the game, but will revert back to her original self in a few hours and/or start to feel that she is only allowed there if she behaves a certain way.
Oh, and that's the lucky outcome.
If she happens to have severe cases of GSF#1,2 or 5 (interesting read by the way:smallsmile:), she will be upset and more disruptive on purpose.

Then again, I don't know her, so I could be wrong, but I think forcing her to make a choice by talking to her (even if it's phrased very politely) is a risky move.

prufock
2012-04-30, 07:28 AM
The result of that was her settling on the barbarian because it was easy to roleplay for her and it was clear what she had to do: run up and hit things. That suits the way she currently plays, but that's what we want to change. I think we might have to look into a class that makes her want to participate in things more.

I'm not sure a class change is necessary to involve her more. It's possible to tailor encounters, interactions, and roleplaying to a barbarian, even if the character is no more defined than "I get angry and hit things." Any class can be represented as a stereotype, and it's not going to help if she's playing a class she doesn't like or is too complex for her current understanding of the game. Have NPCs compliment her on her combat skills, ask her questions about her fighting style, or even criticize her for losing her temper. Have her (temporarily) split from the party occasionally, forced to use skills other than smashing things. Have the villain monologue and challenge or rebuke the character. Anything to get the player talking about her character.

Another thing you can try - without even having to tailor anything specifically to her - is occasionally having the characters do internal monologues, externally (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/128/character-monologue-tell-us-what-its-like-to-be-you/). Don't just ask "what are you doing?" or "what do you say to this guy?" Also ask "Why are you doing that?" "what do you think of that?" "how do you feel?" and "what's going through your head right now?"

Don't single her out, of course, get everyone to do these things once in a while, starting with your more experienced/deep roleplayers to get the ball rolling.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-30, 08:44 AM
3. Identifying a problem does not automatically make it go away.
Confronting a player about their gaming style, and telling them that they have to change it, however, can petrify a conflict between the player and the DM (I've seen that happening with two friends), and makes it harder for the group to just move on. (They did not play together for months.)
My advice differs from this in several respects:

(1) Identifying a problem does not solve it; but once you know the problem, you can try to resolve it.
Talking to someone is far more likely to give you the information you need in this regard than a complex plan in which you intentionally fail to invite someone to an event they expected to attend, and then wait around for them to ask about it so that you can watch their response.

(2) Don't "confront" people when you're opening a discussion
You should never be confrontational with your Players when talking with them OOC about the game. For many Players, this sort of discussion is stressful enough -- they don't want to hurt the DM's feelings -- that being aggressive towards them isn't going to help. Instead, open a discussion about their feelings in the game, bringing up the specific situation to focus that discussion.

In this example, you can say to The Socialite: "Hey, I've noticed you've been having problems staying focused during the game. Is there anything you'd like changed about it to make it more interesting?" Even if she isn't bored by your game at least this can get her to talk on the right track.

(3) You can't "force" people to change how they play but do give them the choice.
I've never said you should try to force someone to change their playstyle, but you should give people the option to change disruptive behavior. There is an important difference from saying "you need to pay attention to the game" and "this game requires its Players to pay a lot of attention to it. If you don't think that works for you, you might want to play a different game instead."

The former demands that someone conforms; the latter identifies a behavior and asks the Player whether he'd rather change or leave.
I'm not saying my route is not without risk, but it is not nearly as harsh as you've suggested. Additionally, it is less likely to strain relationships since it requires less conspiracy to operate.

Kolonel
2012-04-30, 09:44 AM
I'm not saying my route is not without risk, but it is not nearly as harsh as you've suggested. Additionally, it is less likely to strain relationships since it requires less conspiracy to operate.

I think we misunderstood each other. The goal in my method is not about conspiring to get rid of Girl#2, but to see how the game goes without her.
Does it really get better or not? Does she mind being left out or not? Does anyone miss her or not?

It might seem more reasonable to ask the players, but nobody would know the answer. Even the DM doesn't know the answer to these questions (he only knows that he doesn't like the current setup), so the only way to make sure is to test it.
(Without being rude to the Socialite, of course.)


The former demands that someone conforms; the latter identifies a behavior and asks the Player whether he'd rather change or leave.
All right, I understand.
But the latter is only less harsh by giving them the third option (besides changing or leaving) of not changing and not leaving. This, while keeps the peace, does nothing to solve the problem.

Chances are that Girl#2 will make this third choice, because she feels all right being the Socialite and does not feel the need to change.
And they are back where they have started.

UndertakerSheep
2012-05-10, 03:47 PM
It's been a while since I last posted and this is because it took a while to talk to the 'Guy On Edge'. I talked to him about his behavior, how it was becoming problematic, why he was acting the way he was and especially if he thought it would change. Much to my surprise, he admitted that his behavior was starting to be problematic and promised to change it.

The day after our little talk, things got even worse between him and the girl and it almost seemed as if our group would split. The day after that, the two of them had a good heart to heart and the reasons for his behavior became clear. We haven't had a D&D session since (due to people being on vacation) but we have done stuff together and they've both been behaving like they used to. It's been that way for a week now. We're not sure if it will stay this way, but we sure hope so.

I haven't talked to 'The Socialite' yet because she was away on vacation but that will probably happen tomorrow. I need to think all of you for your advice on how to handle this and I will do my best to follow it.

If you don't hear from me again and this topic sinks to the dark bottom of the playground, you can consider the problem solved or atleast the situation eased. If you do hear from me...well, I'll probably tell you what then.

Once again thanks for all your help!

Stubbazubba
2012-05-12, 01:34 PM
(Without being rude to the Socialite, of course.)

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that being intentionally, if not overtly, left out of the loop is not rude. If you can keep it a secret, and that's a big if here, then you're still signaling to all your players that you do things behind closed doors and by conspiracy, and that will change the dynamic within the group, and not in a good way, I don't think. Your players should feel comfortable with every aspect of the game, including the social dynamics, and secrecy and conspiracy does not make the group better. It may be an effective tactic for dealing with a Problem Player, depending on execution, but the group sacrifices a measure of trust for it. It seems short-sighted. IMO, better to be open, mature, and very, very skillful in your social maneuvering.

Tips for confronting people about problems;

Bring up the topic in a neutral way. Don't indicate what "side" you're on, because many people will take the side that you hint at to avoid conflict. For instance, say to the Socialite, "So, how do you feel about D&D so far?"
Help them identify the problem. This may be hard, depending on how thick your audience is. "Do you feel comfortable playing? Does the game seem engaging to you? How do you feel about what [Man on Edge] says/does?" If you can get them to raise a concern through the skillful use of leading questions, then you don't have to confront them about their problem, you are helping them overcome a problem that they recognize, and that's a much easier battle.
Qualify your opinion as much as possible, even if you know it's the gospel truth. You want to broaden their perspective, not bully them into seeing things your way, even if you're right. Being right doesn't get you anywhere. Being tactful does. Related to this; couch everything in terms of how people feel about things, don't be absolute (like I just was). "I get the feeling he wants to take the game pretty seriously and get way into it, which is how a lot of people like to play, and he feels like he gets taken out of the game when you bring up [o/t stuff]."
Always be on their side. When they present their POV or their interpretation, never directly contradict it. Again, downplay your conviction; if she says "I just like doing something with everyone," don't reply with, "Yeah, that's the problem," try to agree or at least meet her halfway, "Yeah, I know what you mean." This way you are acknowledging their feelings in the situation, you have convinced them that you're on "their side," and you're so non-threatening that there's almost no way this can blow up.
OK, now you have maneuvered yourself to the point that you can really resolve an issue while maintaining the good feelings of your audience. At least, far more of those good feelings than if you're very blunt about it. At this point ask if you can present your suggestions, and present them as such. "I've had some ideas that I think might help. Wanna hear? OK, if..."
Ask if those sound reasonable, and then ask separately if your audience feels like they can do that. Observe their responses closely; you've got to be able to tell if they're just saying yes to avoid further conflict, or if they're really on board.
If they're not on board, then make another suggestion, which is to not play any more do some specific other thing. This is critical; never make a "stop-it" suggestion, always make a suggestion for action. In other words; never remove something without replacing it with something better. Most people will refuse the "stop-it" suggestion, but will consider an actual replacement.


Those are my suggestions. This strikes the proper tone which will ease someone into talking about an issue and taking suggestions, which will usually be far more effective than blunt confrontation. They work better the better you know the person you're talking to and the better you can read them. Oh, and always do these things one on one, as other people will totally mess it up. These should work with reasonable people. If the Problem Player is unwilling to cooperate, unwilling to tell you their feelings about the issue, unwilling to hear suggestions, etc., then and only then should you consider more direct action like direct confrontation, or even ultimatums, bans, etc.

Game groups, and friend groups also, are built on trust; don't sacrifice it until you have no choice. You can gracefully resolve issues, even if that means excusing a Problem Player from the group, without anyone's feelings being bruised by the ban hammer. If groups would use a little social tact, I think there would be much less negativity in the hobby, and then it would attract less trolls, who are beyond tactful reasoning.

Of course, in this specific situation, it sounds like OOC factors are playing a significant role. These suggestions may not be quite as useful, but still quite useful, I would imagine.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-05-12, 09:11 PM
Hm... that "give her something to do in addition to the game" thing sounds like it could work for the ADD girl. I second that.