Gestalt: Prestige Classes

[Malachei]

I'm planning a Gestalt game, but I like the various theurgish Prestige Classes, such as Ultimate Magus, Anima Mage, etc. and would not like to ban them from the game.

I've thought about the following gestalt rules:


Requirements for Prestige Classes must be fulfilled single-side1
Spellcasting Prestige Classes advance only single-side
Both qualification for and the effects of feats and skill points apply cross-side2
Versatile Spellcaster cannot be used across spellcasting classes (as usual)
Prestige Classes that advance several class features are allowed. This includes spellcasting classes, such as Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus, etc., but they must be qualified single-side.
A specific class can only be present single-side, i.e. you cannot be a wizard 5 / fighter 2 || rogue 5 / wizard 2.

1 Single-side means that a rule or class feature applies to only one side of the gestalt character, and unless explicitly noted, this refers to the same side the rule or class feature is acquired
2 Cross-side means that a rule or class feature applies to both sides of the gestalt character


Questions:
I wonder whether the wording is clear enough? Do you consider this a working solution under the premise of allowing theurgish PrCs?
If not, what is missing? Is this too restrictive or too lenient?

[killianh]

That actually sounds like the system I use for those types of classes in my gestalt game. If they wish to play a multiclass boosting class they need to multiclass on one side of the character as if that side were a single character progression. All in all kudos and keep up the good work

[Suddo]

3 is interesting with Initiator Level and BAB.
Warblade 10 // Wizard 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 would work? Now do the same thing with Jade Phoenix Mage or something.
Also I'd suggest using fractional BAB so that some builds (Warblade 1 / Sorc 4 // Wizard 5 / Abjurant Champion 1) don't work.

Personally I think that just saying that IL, Spellcasting, Binding, etc work like BAB is fine. I mean I know its crazy good but is Archivist 3 / Warblade 10 // Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 really that bad? I mean you are playing gestalt. Also I wouldn't cause things like Uncanny dodge and sneak attack to be effected by this, so Rogue 1 / Spellthief 1 would have 2d6 sneak attack.

[Malachei]

3 is interesting with Initiator Level and BAB.
Warblade 10 // Wizard 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 would work?

Thank you for this. I see that the text is not unambiguously worded, because 1 and 3 can be seen as conflicting. The feats & skills rule was mostly for feats that require a feat prerequisite, and for assigning skills all over the place. I'm not sure I want straight entry via cross-side feats.


Personally I think that just saying that IL, Spellcasting, Binding, etc work like BAB is fine. I mean I know its crazy good but is Archivist 3 / Warblade 10 // Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 really that bad?

Yes, but how about Wizard 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 || Beguiler X?

If you are Illumian (Krau) with Practiced Spellcaster, UM is 10/10, so at 13th, you now have wizard caster level 17 due to UM's arcane spell power -- with no lost caster level.

You're right in that, after all, it is gestalt. But there are a few cases I feel might create issues.

[Darth Stabber]

Technically gestalts don't have "sides", they are just a very convenient mental shorthand. Now as far taking theurgic classes there are 4 main ways to handle it that I am aware of.
1) Don't allow it. It's the simplest with the support of the rules suggestion (would the be RAS rules as suggested?), but you've already stated you want to allow it.
2) Allow them fairly normally. With this you can take wizard3/warblade1//archivist3/MT1. This is the high power option, and the most logically consistant one.
3) Require all prerequisites be on the same side. There are a lot of issues with this option, but if well implemted it yeilds results more similar to the traditional non-gestalt methods. It causes issues because what constitutes part of a side, given that sides are not actually a supported feature, but a mental construct on our part. Warblade7//archivist3/wizard3/MT1 is an example.
4) Up the requirements to force characters to wait as long as non-gestalts whould have to have waited. This is one is valid if a pain in the butt, because it involves lots of GM micromanagment. It's kind of a middle ground between 2-3, and doesn't involve the aknowledgement of sides. Assuming that you up MT reqs to 3rd level spells Wizard5/warblade2//archivist5/MT2 is an example.

[CTrees]

Yes, but how about Wizard 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 || Beguiler X?

Wiz5/True Necromancer8//Cleric3/MT10, unless I've remembered the TN advancement wrong (which levels get half advancement), is a 13th level build that casts as a 20th level cleric and a 22nd level wizard. With some effort, we could make this much, much worse. To those wondering, this is why theurges need to be approached carefully in gestalt.

[Oscredwin]

Honestly I think the best option is to improve the theurgish class to become a "both sides" PrC. Add a good save, 2sp/level, bump up the BAB a level, bump up the HD two steps (max d12), and give the casting progression full for both parts. A wiz5/Ultimate Magus 5//Beguiler5/Ultimate Magus 5 casts as a level 10 Wiz and Beguiler.

[CTrees]

Honestly I think the best option is to improve the theurgish class to become a "both sides" PrC. Add a good save, 2sp/level, bump up the BAB a level, bump up the HD two steps (max d12), and give the casting progression full for both parts. A wiz5/Ultimate Magus 5//Beguiler5/Ultimate Magus 5 casts as a level 10 Wiz and Beguiler.

You know, I've never seen this suggestion before, but I really like it. Homebrew certain PRCs to just take up both "sides" at once? Brilliant!

[Oscredwin]

Custom PrC's that take up both sides are suggested in UA. They don't show up on message boards that often. If I had to guess why, I'd say it's because you'd have to homebrew each theurgish class instead of giving a handful of rules like the OP did. I hope the guidelines I just made up can be helpful.

[Toliudar]

If you're determined to keep theurgish classes, I'll suggest a couple of things:


Clarify your first rule to specify how skill, BAB and feat requirements interact with gestalt. In other words, if a prestige class' prereq skill is cross-class for the side on which you'd like the theurge class to appear but a class skill on the other side, am I allowed to count the 'other side's' skill points towards prereqs? How about BAB? It's a very muddy pool.
I would recommend a rule that your level of spellcasting in any given class (NOT caster level) can't exceed your hit dice.