[PF] Favoured class bonuses unbalanced?

[holywhippet]

I bought the Pathfinder core rulebook ages ago and might now be getting into my first campaign. In the core rulebook they say that taking a level in your favoured class gives you either a bonus skill point or hit point. But when I was checking the SRD I could see that they've added new options based on race in one of the splat books.

Thing is, I'm thinking of played a halfling bard, but when I look at the favoured class bonuses for that race/class I see my option is "Add +1/2 on Bluff checks to pass secret messages, +1/2 on Diplomacy checks to gather information, and +1/2 on Disguise checks to appear as an elven, half-elven, or human child."

On the other hand, human bards get a new bard spell, provided it's level is less than the maximum they can cast.

So basically a halfing get 1 1/2 skill points worth of bonus. Except that those bonuses are all circumstantial and require specific conditions to work. A human on the other hand gets more spells known which helps get around one of the big limitatations of the bard class.

This seems kind of unbalanced to me. For a halfling bard I'd be better off keeping the regular bonus skill point.

[Chained Birds]

Sometimes a Race gets a cool bonus, other times you'd just rather go with the extra skill point or hit point. Humans usually get the better bonuses, but if you wanted to play another race, then you may at least get an option (which varies between races and class on usefulness).

[grarrrg]

I agree that they aren't really balanced.
But that's sort of the point (or should be...).

Favored bonuses primarily reflect that race's "feel" (flavor), which is why there is no Favored bonus for Dwarf/Sorcerer's, because Dwarves as a race don't match the Sorcerer "feel" (and the CHA penalty doesn't help...), but they DO have a Favored bonus for Oracle, because of the strong connection between Dwarves and Clerics.

Also, ideally, the Favored bonuses should compensate for relative strength/weakness of certain race/class choices, i.e. Dwarfs do not make the best Oracles due to the CHA penalty, so their bonus should be better than a race with a CHA bonus (balance).
And comparing Dwarves and Gnomes, Dwarves do have the (relatively) better bonus: 'free' weapon proficiencies, vs. slightly quicker access to abilities you'll have at some point anyway.


There is usually a conflict between the two (balance/flavor).

Flavor-wise:
Humans are the 'do anything' race, thus their Favored options are a little more open and flexible.
Compare Human/Fighter to Dwarf/Fighter
Humans "Add +1 to the fighter’s CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the character’s choice"
Dwarves "Add +1 to the fighter’s CMD when resisting a bull rush or trip"
Humans get a choice, because they are the more 'flexible' race.

Balance-wise:
Also, look at the Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Goblin-Player-Characters) Favored Bonuses, they are heads above ANY other race's Favored bonuses (at least in comparable bonuses). But as a Race, they have hardy any Race features, and have a net +0 to Stats (every other 'standard' race has net +2). So the Favored bonuses are a way of compensating for the otherwise 'weaker' race.

Halfling's get an awesome Favored bonus for going Monk "Add +1 to the monk’s CMD when resisting a grapple and +1/2 to the number of stunning attacks he can attempt per day.", but make the WORST Monks out of the main 7 Races (small size, wrong stats).

[Larpus]

What grarrrg said.

Sure, sometimes they're a bit too unbalanced, and yes, most of said times are dealing with Humans and spontaneous casters, to which an extra spell is such a huge advantage.

That's where a DM should come to play, so if you feel that due to your favored class bonus your character is going to be weaker than you're comfortable with when comparing to another player, such as there's a Human Sorcerer in the group, talk to your DM.

He may either limit the other guy so he doesn't fly too high with something that is obviously too strong (if that were the case and I were the DM, I would most probably limit his ability by not allowing him to take it on consecutive levels) or give you something better/less specific, even if it's not quite all that powerful in comparison.

[navar100]

It may or may not have been Pathfinder's intent, but the alternative favored class bonuses are better off used for on purpose high power games. They are significantly more powerful than the standard +1 skill point or hit point per level. This is not a bug. It's a feature. What makes a game "high power" is subjective, so you're better off either everyone has the alternative options or no one does unless someone really, really wants the extra skill/hit points anyway which is not a terrible choice for its own sake.

[Larpus]

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that these are bonuses in the sense that they're something your character doesn't need in order to function, just fun bits to go that extra mile.

So whatever it is that you're getting, the important is that it is free and by no means you need it or you're super screwed, so don't think too hard on them.

[CTrees]

They're ridiculously imbalanced, ranging from mostly useless to way-too-good (see: the most common reading of the goblin's +1 skill rank, human spontaneous casters, et cetera). Can't imagine that's not functioning as intended.

My favorite is still the goblin alchemist's bonus. mundane fire normally does 1d6 damage per round. After six levels, you become immune. Thus, there is little reason to ever NOT be on fire after that point. Which is just so delightfully in-character for goblins...

[grarrrg]

see: the most common reading of the goblin's +1 skill rank

Most people miss that that is EXACTLY how the Default Favored (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) Bonus system works

"your character gains one extra hit point or one extra skill rank each time she gains a level in that class"

And everyone agrees this just gives you an extra Skill Point, not any special "magic" skills "above and beyond" what you've already invested.


My favorite is still the goblin alchemist's bonus. mundane fire normally does 1d6 damage per round. After six levels, you become immune. Thus, there is little reason to ever NOT be on fire after that point. Which is just so delightfully in-character for goblins...

Human/Paladin and Gnome/Druid have 'similar' bonuses.
They get 1 point of energy resist per level, but they can choose the Energy, but each type maxes out at 10, whereas Goblin/Alchemist can get up to Fire Resist 20.

Although I will say that some Goblin Favored Bonuses are HORRENDOUSLY worded.
"Alchemist: Gain fire resistance 1. Each additional level gained, increase fire resistance by +1. This fire resistance doesn’t stack..."
Taken at face value (w/minor interpretation), you take the Favored Bonus _once_ at level 1, never again, and it automatically scales up to Fire Resist 20 at Alchemist 20.
Also Goblin/Rogue is just...worthless.

[Mustard]

grarrrg, do you happen to know where the alternative goblin favored class bonuses come from? D20pfsrd.com usually lists the source, but I don't see it there. Goblins of Golarion, perhaps?

[Big Fau]

Races in general aren't balanced. Humans have always been a solid option in 3.5, whereas Half-Elves are so generic they end up being bad.

[grarrrg]

grarrrg, do you happen to know where the alternative goblin favored class bonuses come from? D20pfsrd.com usually lists the source, but I don't see it there. Goblins of Golarion, perhaps?

I'd assume Goblins of Golarion, but can't confirm.


Races in general aren't balanced. Humans have always been a solid option in 3.5, whereas Half-Elves are so generic they end up being bad.

Half-Elves in PF are actually respectable.
Out of the box (core), they are decidedly "meh".
But with follow-up support they are much better, and are actually the optimal choice for some classes/builds.

Skill Focus can be traded away for the Martial/Exotic Weapon prof. of your choice.
Or you can trade Skill Focus for a +2 to Will Saves (untyped!)

Multi-talented is more useful with special Favored Class bonuses.
And regarding Favored bonuses, Bard (extra Rounds Performance), and Summoner (+1/4 Evo Point) are particularly handy.

[deuxhero]

PF Half-Elfs make really good Summoners. Not only are they immune to sleep (which dismisses your pet) and can take a Charisma bonus, but they get a good favored class alternative and being Cha focused, Skill Focus is pretty good and lets them take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane and Abysmal are both pretty crazy).

[Larpus]

Alternate racial features come a long way to make a rather generic race into something more fleshed out or simply suit your build much better.

For an Alchemist, Half Elf is also a pretty respectable option, up there with Human even, as it can get +2 Will to help the Alchemist not be an enemy favorite target of charms or weapon proficiencies which the class lacks (bow comes to mind for a bomber).

Sure, Humans are still "cursed with awesome" in that their normal version is usually the best, but there's still some gold in there, especially with skill points being so much less important in PF.

[Answerer]

Fun fact: Paizo knows very little about the game they are publishing, and furthermore neither cares to know nor respects those who do. Jason Buhlman and Sean K. Reynolds have both made repeated statements disdaining anyone who even so much as cares if things are balanced.

So if you want new published commercial content for 3.x, this is something you have to accept as part of the cost.

[Larpus]

Fun fact: Paizo knows very little about the game they are publishing, and furthermore neither cares to know nor respects those who do. Jason Buhlman and Sean K. Reynolds have both made repeated statements disdaining anyone who even so much as cares if things are balanced.

So if you want new published commercial content for 3.x, this is something you have to accept as part of the cost.
News to me.

Though yeah, it really shows, just look at most of the caster archetypes in Ultimate Combat *rolls eyes*

[grarrrg]

For any class with a poor Will Save, Half Elf is also a pretty respectable option ... as it can get +2 Will to help you not be an enemy favorite target of charms or weapon proficiencies which the class lacks

Fixed that for you.


Gnomes and Half Orcs generally make better Alchemists, MOAR BOMBZ! and MOAR BOMB DAMAGE! respectively.
Also, Half Orcs can trade 'Orc Ferocity' for a +1 Luck bonus to All Saves, so I'd say they are an (almost) strictly superior choice for Alchemists compared to Half Elves.

[FMArthur]

I really wish "favored class" was never implemented as a game-influencing effect in 3e. It was like watching an addict's sad regression as they painfully struggle away from race-dictated class systems.

Let a race's natural affinity for specific classes stand on its own via its real abilities; don't give out odd benefits 'just because' to enforce cliches in the game. A race being in love with magic should mean something for the distribution of wizards among NPCs instead of telling players of other races that the backstory of their character just isn't magical enough to possess comparable magical mastery, no matter what, even if he/she got raised by that race.


If you make a race that jumps higher in a particular class because the race's physical attributes make them awesome jumpers, that should be a normal benefit of that particular race and you should reassess what you want the race to be.

If you make a race that casts better wizard spells because they're definitely way smarter than other races, punch yourself in the crotch and let it go. How smart a character is is up to the PC making it, and they can use this race to make dumber characters and other races to make way smarter characters, as they see fit.

[Larpus]

Fixed that for you.


Gnomes and Half Orcs generally make better Alchemists, MOAR BOMBZ! and MOAR BOMB DAMAGE! respectively.
Also, Half Orcs can trade 'Orc Ferocity' for a +1 Luck bonus to All Saves, so I'd say they are an (almost) strictly superior choice for Alchemists compared to Half Elves.
True.

It was just to show that Half Elves have come a very long way when compared to their 3.5 selves. And yes, Gnome is overall the best option period due to bomb number/day, Orc seems the best if all you want is bomb damage. Half Elf ties with Orc for a Vivisectionist though, slightly ahead in my book due to immunities.

[Righteous Doggy]

As a home rule, I have a group lets you pick any of the races favoured bonuses. Not exactly a fix if you think something is over or underpowered, but it does turn it into a big choice of varieties and destroys the cliches such as Snobby wizard elves or big stupid orcs. Would anyone prefer this to the current system?

[Answerer]

I really wish "favored class" was never implemented as a game-influencing effect in 3e. It was like watching an addict's sad regression as they painfully struggle away from race-dictated class systems.
Agreed.


As a home rule, I have a group lets you pick any of the races favoured bonuses. Not exactly a fix if you think something is over or underpowered, but it does turn it into a big choice of varieties and destroys the cliches such as Snobby wizard elves or big stupid orcs. Would anyone prefer this to the current system?
Certainly better, yes. I'm pretty in favor of options, so I don't really have a problem with it.

[JadePhoenix]

Fun fact: Paizo knows very little about the game they are publishing, and furthermore neither cares to know nor respects those who do. Jason Buhlman and Sean K. Reynolds have both made repeated statements disdaining anyone who even so much as cares if things are balanced.

So if you want new published commercial content for 3.x, this is something you have to accept as part of the cost.

This is no fact, this is your opinion. Knowing their game is different from worrying about balance.
Fun fact: some players don't care about balance.