Gish Help

[Roguenewb]

So, following my mediocre failure in trying to design a 1-20 (read: needs to work at all levels) gish character in a previous thread, I thought I'd ask for help at an earlier stage of the process. I'm trying to design a noble scion who has budding arcane magical powers that he mixes with his swordplay. He takes Illithid Bloodline and Apprentice at level 1, and uses them to give himself some breathing room on total spells known (flavor, his master is helping him channel the dark blood towards something effective) here's a skeletal build, advice and recommendations:

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Swordsage 2/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM 8.

What should I do here? Is this at all legit power-wise? I'm shooting to contribute without shining too hard in a tier 3/4ish campaign. Thanks ahead of time!

[Keld Denar]

I'd knock out Stalwart and Battle Sorc. The benefits only stick around for 4 levels (the HD/BAB mostly) and the drawbacks last for a lifetime (less spells/day and spells known). JPM doesn't have a BAB prereq, so normal sorc won't delay entry, and it'll really be a boon for casting. Trust me.

If you need it to work at all levels, I'd look into taking one of those Swordsage levels first. This'll give you a bit more fun things to play around with at level 1, rather than your what, 1 spell known and 2 spells/day you'll have at level 1 as a Battle Sorc1. Sure, in the LONG run, Sorc4/Swordsage1 is better because you get immediate access to level 2 maneuvers, but you have to slog through 4 levels to get there with almost no martial prowass at all, so...bleh.

JPM is non-evil, which might conflict with having Illithid tendencies. Luckily, the only knowledge skill you'll need crossclass is Religion, which I think is only 2 ranks.

[Roguenewb]

The illithid conflict is the heart of the Char's RP. Do swordsages get longswords or some other good gish sword?

[Keld Denar]

Swordsage gets all simple weapons AND all martial melee weapons. You don't get martial ranged weapons like longbows, but you do indeed get longswords.

And actually, debatably, the best gishy weapons are either polearms (reach > all) or bludgeoning weapons (Greater Mighty Wallop spell from Races of the Dragon), with a definite nod toward slashing weapons as a focus for the Whirling Blade spell.

[Roguenewb]

It may not be optimal, but the day I heft a melee weapon that ain't a sword is the day I hang up these D&D spurs.

What feats are good?

[Keld Denar]

Power Attack first and foremost. You have access to a large number of attack bonus boosting abilities, not to mention Wraithstrike. Convert excess AB into pure HP damage.

Other than that, Practiced Spellcaster is generally a gimme. It brings your CL up to your total level. You don't get any extra spells/day, but it makes the spells you cast more potent, last longer, and are harder to dispel.

The only other feat I consider a "must have" is Minor Shapeshift. Its a bit of a late bloomer, requiring 4th level+ spells, but the ability to gain character level temp HP every round as a swift action is almost like having fast healing equal to your level, that's how good the Vigor portion of it is. On rounds you don't use it, you are free to cast swift spells or use swift boosts, but the fact that it can mostly negate a few hits per combat is clutch.

Arcane Strike tends to be popular, but you'll already have something similar to this covered with JPM, IIRC. That said, you COULD use them both at the same time, but you might find yourself bleeding spell slots in an uncomfortable way.

Other than that, metamagic is often popular. Extend Spell is generally taken often, although it is available rather cheaply from a Metamagic Rod. Its a prereq for Persist Spell, though, which is often popular with gems like Wraithstrike or Cloud of Knives or other low level rounds/level buffs. Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, and Twin Spell are often other choice feats for various spell combos.

[Roguenewb]

Your the man Keld, so, level 1: Apprentice, Illithid Bloodline, Power Attack, and? Combat casting? (For AC, and best for actual use early?)

[docnessuno]

Any particular reason to go sorcerer over mage? i don't see any cha sinergy in the build (and with a final CL 17 it won't let you grab the lvl 9 spells).

I'd suggest going specialist wizard, and being a conjurer, transmuter, abjurer or illusionist. Stak the following variants on to squeeze an extra feat and some extra spells/day.
Combat Wizard (UA, p 59): Replace scribe scroll and wizard bonus feats with fighter bonus feats.
Focused Specialist (CM, p 34): Lose access to another school and one spell per day, gain 2 extra spells from specialist school.
Also check PHB2 and UA for the specialist wizard variants to see if anything suits your tastes.

For similar reasons i'd go for a warblade over swordsage (no real wis sinergy, full BAB, gaining some nice int sinergy)

Wizard 4 / Warblade 2 / JPM 2 / Abjurant champion 5 / JPM 7 (or Abjurant champion 4 / JPM 8)

BAB +18 / CL 17 (4 9th level spell slots)


1 Illithid Bloodline, Extend spell
1 (human) Combat casting
1 (wizard) Improved toughness
3 Power attack
6 Arcane strike
9 Open
12 Open
15 Quicken spell
18 Persistent spell

In the beginning your bread and butter will be the wraitstrike spell. Memorize it a lot, and memorize it a lot with extend spell too.

[Roguenewb]

The sorc is just cause I hate prepared casting. And my DM looooooves to take spellbooks.

[Essence_of_War]

Couple of ideas.

Are you married to swordsage 2 for your initiator levels? Crusader 2 gives you better BAB, a Cha synergy, access to Devoted Spirit maneuvers (from which you can heal yourself!), and a delayed damage pool. DS is generally considered to be MUCH stronger than DW, and Crusader lets you meet some of the DS pre-reqs so you can pick up some of the more powerful higher level maneuvers as a JPM. The crusader also gives proficiency with ALL martial/simple weapons, and all armors. This opens up the possibility of Spellsword...

I might try something like this:

Crusader 1/ Battle Sorcerer 1-4/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ 1-4/JPM 1-9
(Gets CL 17 (battle sorc), BAB 19, IL 15)
Then either cap w/ JPM 10 if you feel strongly about Emerald Immolation or w/ Abj Champion 5 if you want the slight CL boost from Martial Arcanist.

Spellsword, which is only accessible through Crusader rather than swordsage, gets full BAB, has a requirement of 1 BAB less than Abj Champ, gets a caster level, and will allow you to cast in armor if you'd like. The higher BAB from the Battle Sorcerer helps you get into the gish prcs w/o taking dead caster levels to boost your BAB.

You might also consider:

Human Paragon 1/ Sorcerer 1-2/ Human Paragon 2-3/ Crusader 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abj Champ 1-4/ JPM 1-9

Gets CL 16, BAB 18, IL 15

Mostly because I love the human paragon.

Edit: If you want to go straight to JPM as fast as possible you could always just cut out the abjurant champion. You should be able to get in with
Crusader 1/ Sorcerer 1-4/Crusader 2/ JPM X

That might be a good decision if you think your game isn't going to high levels.

[Roguenewb]

Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

[Roguenewb]

Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

[Roguenewb]

Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

[Roguenewb]

Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

[Elric VIII]

Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

It's usually part of gish builds that only lose 1-2 CL and acts as a stepping-stone to Abjurant Champion, since it only requires +4 BAB vs the Abj Champ's +5 BAB.

Classic Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spell Sword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. It has +16 BAB and 18th level Sorcerer casting at 20.



Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

It's usually part of gish builds that only lose 1-2 CL and acts as a stepping-stone to Abjurant Champion, since it only requires +4 BAB vs the Abj Champ's +5 BAB.

Classic Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spell Sword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. It has +16 BAB and 18th level Sorcerer casting at 20.



Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

It's usually part of gish builds that only lose 1-2 CL and acts as a stepping-stone to Abjurant Champion, since it only requires +4 BAB vs the Abj Champ's +5 BAB.

Classic Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spell Sword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. It has +16 BAB and 18th level Sorcerer casting at 20.
.


Why is spellsword good? Their are a bunch of classes in my build that get +1 bab +1 cl, and don't I already have light armor casting?

It's usually part of gish builds that only lose 1-2 CL and acts as a stepping-stone to Abjurant Champion, since it only requires +4 BAB vs the Abj Champ's +5 BAB.

Classic Sorcadin: Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spell Sword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. It has +16 BAB and 18th level Sorcerer casting at 20.

[Essence_of_War]

Eeeep. Server issues?

1) It gets you armored casting w/o battle sorcerer
2) It bootstraps you into Abjurant Champion (Spellsword requires BAB +4 and gives full BAB, Abj requires BAB +5...)

What do you do in situations like this:

Crusader 1/Battle Sorcerer 4

You have BAB +4, so you don't qualify for Abj Champ, you don't meet the skill prereqs for JPM. You can take a Crusader level if you'd like, but it doesn't give you casting. You DO qualify for Spellsword which will allow you to get into either JPM or Abj Champ at your next level w/o losing caster levels. Spellsword is a good choice for your next level.

Similarly Crusader 2/ Usual Sorcerer 4

You'd like armored casting if you can get it, and although you can go directly into JPM if you want, you can't get into Abj Champ and you might want to take some more martial class levels to make your JPM levels correspond to the maximum initiator level. Spellsword is a good choice for your next level.

[Dude_Here]

I'm looking at a build like this:

Human Focused Specialist Transmuter
H Paragon 1/Wizard 1(combat)/H Paragon 2-3/Crusader 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ or Incantrix 4/JPM 4/Sacred Exorcist 4/JPM 5

I was wondering if you don't go into Abjurant Champion is it still worth taking the Combat Casting feat? Cause I really wanted to fit Knowledge Devotion into this build without giving up Combat Reflexes.

Anyway, a feat I didn't see mentioned to go with your Power Attack is Leap Attack at 6th level.

[Elric VIII]

I'm looking at a build like this:

Human Focused Specialist Transmuter
H Paragon 1/Wizard 1(combat)/H Paragon 2-3/Crusader 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ or Incantrix 4/JPM 4/Sacred Exorcist 4/JPM 5

I was wondering if you don't go into Abjurant Champion is it still worth taking the Combat Casting feat? Cause I really wanted to fit Knowledge Devotion into this build without giving up Combat Reflexes.

Anyway, a feat I didn't see mentioned to go with your Power Attack is Leap Attack at 6th level.

No, Combat Casting is a bad feat. It's one of those feat tax prerequisites.

I would recommend Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Paragon +2/Crusader 1/Wizard 1/Spellsword 1/[Incantatrix 3, JPM 5, Abjurant Champion 5 in any order].

That 3rd level of wizard isn't doing much for you, compared to something with more BAB, hit points, and/or class features. Likewise, that's 4th level of Incantatrix has a bonus feat, but you'd be better served with more Abjurant Champion. JPM is good, but only up to level 5 (unless you are focusing on maneuvers, rather than casting), after that the abilities you get are not really worth the loss of another CL. Sacred Exorcist is good for finishing off builds, but, unless you've got Cha-synergy for Divine feats, you're better off squeezing in Abj Champ.

As for Leap Attack, I feel that gishes are much better off going the mounted charger route with Phantom Steed and a Valorous Lance (obviously, with PA). The entire list of useful mounted combat feats can be acquired through equipment, and the steed gives you a lot more speed, ability to overcome difficult terrain, and the ability to move and cast full round spells in one turn. However, a Mighty Wallop, Leap Attack build is decent, too.

[Dude_Here]

That 3rd level of wizard isn't doing much for you, compared to something with more BAB, hit points, and/or class features.

I meant to say wizard level 2. You must forgive me as I'm new to this forum. Also JPM was only for level 5. I was told to take the 5th level at 20 so I could get access to level 6 stance/manuevers namely Aura of Chaos. What I didn't mention is that my DM hit Abjurant Champion with a nerf bat: still has full spell casting but 3/4 bab and d8 hd; which is probably what it should be. On the plus side JPM has d8 hd cause we are using the pathfinder system for hd.

[Elric VIII]

I meant to say wizard level 2. You must forgive me as I'm new to this forum. Also JPM was only for level 5. I was told to take the 5th level at 20 so I could get access to level 6 stance/manuevers namely Aura of Chaos. What I didn't mention is that my DM hit Abjurant Champion with a nerf bat: still has full spell casting but 3/4 bab and d8 hd; which is probably what it should be. On the plus side JPM has d8 hd cause we are using the pathfinder system for hd.

Okay, I misunderstood your syntax (and the fact that there are 25 levels there, read by my original interpretation).

Even at 3/4 BAB and D8, Abj Champ is still better than Sacred Exorcist, barring Cha synergy and divine feats. Sacred Ex 1 might be worth it if you want to use Travel devotion as your free movement and have not dumped Cha (this would make you very MAD).

Aura of Chaos is pretty good, but you want to be rolling lots of dice. Some form of free movement/full attacking, along with a weapon altered by Greater Might Wallop would maximize the number of dice you roll. A Warmace (CW, martial weapon with a d12) gets 8d6 at colossal.

[Roguenewb]

So, campaign has started, and I'm playing the Battle Sorc build in the first post, any ideas for getting my AC good and high?

[Elric VIII]

Arcane Preparation, along with an exalted attitude and Luminous armor can equal a +1 full plate (+5 AC and -4 to all melee attacks against you) with no ASF or dex penalty. Greater Luminous armor and Abjurant Champion levels adds another +8 AC to that.

You could also ask your DM to learn an Abjuration version of (Greater) Mage armor.

A third option is a Chain Spell GMW/Magic Vestment on your +1 defending spiked gauntlets (2 gauntlets), braid blade, boot blades (x2), armor spikes, and shield spikes, along with + 1 Mithral Twilight chain shirt and +1 Feycraft Mithral heavy shield, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Ring of Deflection. This can get you up to 71 AC and that's just using the Defending Weapon trick, plus some items.

[Keld Denar]

The issue with that is Magic Vest isn't a Wiz spell (although you can get it with Arcane Disciple: War as a 3rd level spell). It also isn't a ranged spell, and thus not a valid target for Chain Spell. That would require more feats and/or resources.

[marcielle]

How does your DM view arcane/psionic transparency? IIRC an Ardent's maximum spell level known is decided by his manifester(caster) level and not his levels in Ardent, therefore you do not slow down your spell progression at all, losing only 4 powers known over straight ardent. Also, meshes well with the whole illithid thing you got going there.

Also, they get to use 2 handed martial weapons. AND Wis synergy.

You wouldn't get 9th level spells as a sorceror, merely 8th level spells at caster level 20. As a Ardent, you can get 9th level powers with only Practiced manifester as a feat investment.

I might be wrong on all this though, don't have my books open at the moment.

[Roguenewb]

I just got permission to apply abjurant champion bonuses to Mage Armor, but the spell stays conjuration, strange right? Is Greater Mage Armor wth Abj bonuses better or worse than spending a feat on arcane prep for Greater Luminous Armor?

[docnessuno]

I'd go for greater mage armor.
The sanctified version is not worth a feat, an higher spell slot and delayed access for +2 AC. That's without considering you have to keep an eternal wand (or something similar) of lesser restoration to get rid of the STR damage.

[Roguenewb]

What about Battle Caster? Does going up to medium armor prof help?

[docnessuno]

Well, assuming you are aiming for Abjurant 4:
Mage armor: lvl1 slot for +8 AC working against incorporeal, no acp/max dex, no weight.
Greater mage armor: lvl3 slot for +10 AC working against incorporeal, no acp/max dex, no weight.
Mithral Chain shirt +5: 26100gp for +9 AC, +6 max dex. may be further enhanced.
Mithral breastplate +5: 29200gp for +10 AC, -1 ACP, +5 max dex. may be further enhanced.
Mithral full plate +5: One feat, 35500gp for +13 AC, -3 ACP, +3 max dex. may be further enhanced.

Your call.