[PF] Seeking Advice for a LG Tiefling (Concept and Build)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm in the process of creating a character for a hypothetical Pathfinder game, specifically the Council of Thieves adventure path, in which tieflings feature very heavily. I wanted to make a character that acts as a kind of foil for the various Evil tiefling NPCs encountered throughout the narrative, but I've hit a snag.

The core character concept is that he's a handsome tiefling: dark skin and eyes, lustrous black hair and a well-trimmed and oiled goatee, the only thing marring his perfect features are the long horns that tend to knock on low doorways which curl up from his forehead. He seeks to rise above the taint of his infernal heritage, attempting to be as Good as he can be. To that end, he lives by a strict code not unlike that of most paladins (whether or not he actually takes that class remains to be seen), hoping that by staying Lawful he can rein in the near compulsion to cruelty that all tieflings deal with every day. To quote The Eleventh Doctor: "Good men don't need rules. Now is not the time to find out why I have so many."

Now here's the important part. Because he seeks to overcome the influence the Hells have on his personality, his spirituality is very important to him. What I'm having trouble with is deciding his patron deity. There are a number of deities that would work with this concept, but each one has their own advantages and problems.

Iomedae, LG goddess of valor, rulership, justice and honor:

This is the most obvious choice. Iomedae was a mortal paladin from Cheliax, where Council of Thieves takes place, before she ascended to divinity. Despite the fact that Cheliax worships Hell now, Iomedae is still held in high regard and with great respect as a local heroine and an example of all Chelaxians can aspire to through playing by the rules and serving authority. The main problems are that Iomedae is the most obvious choice, seeming a bit too white-bread. Plus, she's more of a hardliner on the distinction between good and evil, so I don't know if she'd accept a tiefling into her fold.
Sarenrae, NG goddess of the sun, redemption, honesty and healing:

This is a pretty solid choice, since Sarenrae accepts any evildoer who shows sincere conviction in atoning for their sins, and her focus on healing would be a balm to the tormented soul of the character (any Good tiefling is going to be tormented by default, if only because they have to consciously repress their true natures at all times). While she doesn't have a strong following in Cheliax, she does have respect. When the time came to seal away Rovagug, the god of destruction, who would have destroyed all of creation, Sarenrae and Asmodeus fought side-by-side against the monstrous god, prevailed, and caged him forever. While Asmodeus views Sarenrae as soft and foolish, he respects her prowess and sincerity. The problems here are largely that Sarenrae is foreign, worshiped primarily in the Middle-Eastern-inspired lands of Katapesh and Qadira, and her followers have a distinctly whirling-dervish, scimitar-wielding Muslim stand-in thing going. That doesn't exactly gel with Cheliax, which resembles Renaissance Italy. And I don't like curved swords.
Shelyn, NG goddess of beauty, art, love and music:

Shelyn is another very accepting deity. She literally loves everyone, even the irredeemably evil, like her brother Zon-Kuthon, despite his cruel murder of their mother and the unending torment he's placed their father in, and she still hopes to redeem him. She's not stupid, however, and knows there are some gods and their servants who don't really understand love and will continue to hurt others. She fights them because she must, but in her heart, she feels sorry for them. Shelyn's faith is unique in Cheliax because it's one of the only ones that openly practices in public, despite the law being that all citizens of Cheliax must publicly acknowledge Asmodeus as the supreme god. For the most part, the government views Shelyn's faithful as harmless, performing or painting, not really a threat to the government. In that, they are misguided indeed. If this character worships Shelyn, he'd hold out hope for the future because no matter how hated he is by the people who spit on him or abuse him, at least Shelyn still loves him. He'd be more artsy too. Again, though, the problem of obviousness comes along, with the added problem that she's has little to no connection with the Council of Thieves story, compared with Asmodeus and Iomedae. And her weapon of choice is a glaive. The polearm, not the star-shaped knife-boomerang from Krull.
Irori, LN god of history, knowledge and self-perfection:

Much like how Iomedae is the go-to deity for paladins, Irori is the go-to god for monks, being a mortal who achieved enlightenment. He has the same problem as Sarenrae in that he's largely a foreign presence, being most popular in his homeland of Vudra (which is based on India) and in Tian Xia (various Asian-inspired countries). However, he has a stronger potential connection to the story, as one of the regular opponents in Council of Thieves is the Hellknight Order of the Rack, which censors and revises Chelish history to prevent the chaos of the civil war from returning. While Irori's followers are very individualistic, with each seeking his or her own path to enlightenment, the suppression of knowledge and preventing people from seeking that enlightenment is about the closest thing to a sin against Irori there is. If I select Irori as the tiefling's patron, he'd be more like a monk, if not taking that actual class, seeking to perfect himself through meditation and deeds in the hopes that he'll be free of his infernal taint in his next life. Monks kind of feel out of place in Cheliax in general though, given they're more a wuxia thing.
Ragathiel, LG Empyreal Lord of chivalry, chastity, vengeance and duty:

Ragathiel is unique in that he's not an actual deity, but rather an incredibly powerful angel known as an Empyreal Lord. He's depicted as a mighty five-winged being leading an army of the spirits of the greatest heroes in the world. In addition, Iomedae's divine herald, the Hand of the Inheritor, actually used to serve Ragathiel, before he asked to transfer to Iomedae's service following the death of Iomedae's master, Aroden. What isn't as well known about Ragathiel is that he's actually the son of a minor fire goddess and the archdevil Dispater, lord of the second level of Hell. This fact alone would make him an attractive patron for my character, who would see a kindred spirit in Ragathiel, a tainted soul ascending to holiness. Plus, his favored weapon is the bastard sword, a weapon I've had something of a love-affair with for a while. The biggest problem with Ragathiel is his relative obscurity when compared with the deities above. If I pick Ragathiel as a patron, I'll likely either draw accusations of picking him solely for the bastard sword, or being a hipster priest or something. In terms of sheer story parallels, he seems like the best choice though.
Which one should I pick?

EDIT: I now seemed to have settled on the skeleton of a concept: A multiclass cleric/monk of Iomedae who uses a new style of martial arts called melekatha, which is similar to real-world aikido in that it focuses on avoiding blows and redirecting your attacker's energy back at them. I still need advice in figuring out the details, and now I also need advice in how to build the character. At the moment I'm thinking to start with Cleric and then move into Monk for the rest of the build, using the Flowing Monk alternate class features from Ultimate Combat.

[Lord_Gareth]

Sarenrae.

I think you may be over-exaggerating the plight of the Tiefling (who I see as being very similar to, say, Darklings or Ogres from C:tL - affected by their urges but not dominated by them) but her portfolios have a lot to speak for you. If your character is being realistic about his attempts to do good (a very Lawful trait) then he needs to accept that his instincts are a part of him that is never going away. He can fight them and let them grow and eventually overwhelm him in neglect, or he can find a way to turn them to positive ends, leashing his wrath and malice until it serves him like a hound might. It works the other way too - being realistic about it means letting go of the guilt from the sins he hasn't committed and recognizing that no being - man, beast, or god - has the right to hold the sins of his ancestors against him, and that he has every right to stand with pride on his own accomplishments.

It might make for a slightly non-typical worshiper, one who is less of a wide-eyed idealist but also, perhaps, slightly more effective at actually Doing Good. After all, he knows all about the urge to do harm. He can speak with the voice of experience and empathy and let those he tries to save know that turning from evil is possible.

If you don't like the way her followers normally look, then make him part of a relatively small sect. Perhaps he converted while traveling and is a lone follower, living her faith by example. If he seems alien and strange because of his religion, what of it? He's already alien and strange.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Sarenrae.

I think you may be over-exaggerating the plight of the Tiefling (who I see as being very similar to, say, Darklings or Ogres from C:tL - affected by their urges but not dominated by them) but her portfolios have a lot to speak for you. If your character is being realistic about his attempts to do good (a very Lawful trait) then he needs to accept that his instincts are a part of him that is never going away. He can fight them and let them grow and eventually overwhelm him in neglect, or he can find a way to turn them to positive ends, leashing his wrath and malice until it serves him like a hound might. It works the other way too - being realistic about it means letting go of the guilt from the sins he hasn't committed and recognizing that no being - man, beast, or god - has the right to hold the sins of his ancestors against him, and that he has every right to stand with pride on his own accomplishments.

It might make for a slightly non-typical worshiper, one who is less of a wide-eyed idealist but also, perhaps, slightly more effective at actually Doing Good. After all, he knows all about the urge to do harm. He can speak with the voice of experience and empathy and let those he tries to save know that turning from evil is possible.

If you don't like the way her followers normally look, then make him part of a relatively small sect. Perhaps he converted while traveling and is a lone follower, living her faith by example. If he seems alien and strange because of his religion, what of it? He's already alien and strange.
I see. Most of what I know about the tiefling mindset comes from the article of the "Tieflings of Golarion" article in The Bastards of Erebus, where it seemed to suggest that while tieflings can learn how to be good, it doesn't come naturally to them. That their first instincts are to hurt others and that maintaining a Good alignment is a constant, conscious struggle. While I'm certain this is an insensitive comparison, I thought it was kind of like my difficulties with my autism, where I have to constantly monitor my behavior and have to consciously make efforts to remain socially appropriate in public, which can sometimes be exhausting.

[Mustard]

The reason tieflings have trouble trying to maintain a good lifestyle is not necessarily because of their heritage, but mainly because of how they are treated. Put anyone under the social pressures they face, and they are likely to find it difficult to ignore the insults, mistreatment, and constant mistrust. Especially in Cheliax. Even though Cheliax is a nation of devil worshipers, tieflings are assumed not to be "blessed" with infernal blood, but rather tainted by an unknown assortment of all manner of genetic influences, probably even (gasp) demons.

But some tieflings may be subject to a dark influence based on their heritage. It could be very subtle, or cause the character to behave significantly differently, seemingly at random. It's all up to you.

Also, I wholly endorse playing a tiefling in a Council of Thieves campaign, so I wish you a great game! EDIT: Erp, never mind, "hypothetical", but if it does get realized, then this wish applies.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This is the passage from that article I mentioned that makes me leery of that analysis:


Some tieflings blame their dark nature on the difficulties of their childhood. Even those rare few who grew up relatively unscarred suspect an unpleasant fundamental truth: that they naturally possess shadowed souls. A tiefling might work her whole life to throw off the shame of her heritage, yet still occasionally hear the seductive whisper of the power that could be hers if she embraced the darkness. While some might claim that all sentient beings face such temptations, for tieflings, that prove almost a magnetic pull, like the hungers of an addict ever reeling from the depths of withdrawal. Even the most disciplined and virtuous tieflings find evil acts easy, natural--even enjoyable. Consciously embracing good proves difficult for tieflings, and no matter how long they travel such a path, the darkness remains like an infection they are unable to cure.
- From "Tieflings of Golarion," by Amber Scott, The Bastards of Erebus, Page 63.

Granted, I don't have the book Blood of Fiends yet, which would probably answer these sorts of questions in more detail, but that seems like solid evidence that tieflings almost feel a compulsion to do evil that Good ones must struggle against constantly, and that it's not just based on the discrimination they face from the people of Cheliax and the rest of the world.

EDIT: And of course I'd play a tiefling in Council of Thieves. There's so many tiefling antagonists in it that good narrative form practically demands it! :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Note for Ragathiel: Actually flurrying with the bastard sword requires 2 feats and one of the following to qualify for the second feat (assuming you use the RAW that Outsider type gives martial weapon proficiency, otherwise only the first works)

a:A dip in Cleric
b:Dip in adept+another feat
c:Dip in Necromancer wizard (bizarrely enough)
d:Empyreal Sorcerer 9
e:Improved: Eldritch Heritage: Empyreal (Legality is questionable and takes 3 feats on top of the normal. The FAQ on Sage (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9o7y) implies that Wildblooded Bloodlines can be taken via Eldritch Heritage though)

Only the first and last is really practical (3 is semi viable with 3.5 material, though basing yourself on Int over Wisdom kills your fluff).

edit: Forgot one seperate method

f: Sohei monk Archetype and either 5 levels in fighter or (if you REALLY want a book thrown at you) 2 levels in rogue/ninja

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Note for Ragathiel: Actually flurrying with the bastard sword requires 2 feats and one of the following to qualify for the second feat (assuming you use the RAW that Outsider type gives martial weapon proficiency, otherwise only the first works)

a:A dip in Cleric
b:Dip in adept+another feat
c:Dip in Necromancer wizard (bizarrely enough)
d:Empyreal Sorcerer 9
e:Improved: Eldritch Heritage: Empyreal (Legality is questionable and takes 3 feats on top of the normal. The FAQ on Sage (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9o7y) implies that Wildblooded Bloodlines can be taken via Eldritch Heritage though)

Only the first and last is really practical (3 is semi viable with 3.5 material, though basing yourself on Int over Wisdom kills your fluff).

edit: Forgot one seperate method

f: Sohei monk Archetype and either 5 levels in fighter or (if you REALLY want a book thrown at you) 2 levels in rogue/ninja
Um...flurrying? Who said anything about that? What is it and why would I want to do that? If this is in reference to the monk idea I bandied about previously, I've let that fall by the wayside for the moment while I get the basics of the concept straightened out. I haven't actually picked a class for this character yet. It could be a monk, but it could also be a cleric, paladin, inquisitor or something completely out of left field like a bard or a sorcerer.

This is mostly about fluff. I like the bastard sword, but that's more because I like the appearance of the weapon when compared with things like glaives and scimitars than it is about any actual mechanical benefits. :smallconfused:

[deuxhero]

Flurrying=Using flurry of blows. Admittedly if using such a deity, you would be going the Paladin route.

[T.G. Oskar]

I have no idea why it has to be that the Tiefling has to end up being a Paladin in service of Iomedae, or a follower of Sarenrae...

There's too little information provided. Is the Tiefling doing it because it wishes to redeem itself? Then Sarenrae works perfectly for it. However, what if its desire to remain good comes because of an idea of transcending its infernal origins? Irori works great in that regard, and it doesn't has to be a Monk; in fact, a LG Tiefling Sorcerer who follows Irori might seek to hold back and overcome its urge to unleash its infernal power upon the world in a tide of dark crimson flames, each day a test of mental mettle, so that one day its power is quelled or even cleansed. Such a Tiefling Sorcerer may end up a great hero, as the scorn of its heritage would demand a wealth of patience, coupled with the lingering knowledge that a simple incantation would deliver a magnificent example for those who can't keep their tongue in their place, but would ruin everything the Tiefling has strived for.

I can't understand why Ragathiel would be a bad choice, either. In that case, Ragathiel would be an exemplar for the Tiefling; perhaps the Tiefling is aware, or perhaps not, that Ragathiel has infernal heritage on its veins. Perhaps the Tiefling follows Ragathiel because of parallelisms; on its quest to quell its urges, a priest of Ragathiel preached about its deity, and some of the words made echo. Perhaps it was a legend, or perhaps it's the message, but something says "why this seems so familiar?" Now, that requires a heckuva lot of preparation, as you'd need to understand the deity pretty clearly and find an unusual way to acquiesce with him in a story sense, but not clearly enough. Eventually, as the Tiefling realizes the truth, its faith strengthens, knowing that overcoming natural urges is not just perfectly possible, but actually viable. Of course, you could simply ignore the bastard sword (I don't see why it's that awesome anyways, when a greatsword does better damage, and 1 point of damage on average with a bastard sword is meaningless on 1 hand if comparing it with a longsword) and behave like a gentleman, eschewing the traditional notion of chivalry for a more "modern" version. Perhaps your Tiefling isn't a Paladin, but a Bard that serves as a Don Juan for other men, considering that the sacrifice you make isn't one that others should, but at the same time inspiring the words of true fidelity. That's entirely throwing a curve ball yet still landing on the strike zone; heck, considering the adventure has to deal with Thieves, a Bard that serves as a combat foil and a social foil. I mean, what if he woos a lady belonging to the thieves into the side of Good, on behalf of a fellow party member, out of chivalric duty? Perhaps it could be the right-hand man of the leader or something; after all, being chaste and dutiful doesn't mean you need to have archaic feelings about love...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I have no idea why it has to be that the Tiefling has to end up being a Paladin in service of Iomedae, or a follower of Sarenrae...

There's too little information provided. Is the Tiefling doing it because it wishes to redeem itself? Then Sarenrae works perfectly for it. However, what if its desire to remain good comes because of an idea of transcending its infernal origins? Irori works great in that regard, and it doesn't has to be a Monk; in fact, a LG Tiefling Sorcerer who follows Irori might seek to hold back and overcome its urge to unleash its infernal power upon the world in a tide of dark crimson flames, each day a test of mental mettle, so that one day its power is quelled or even cleansed. Such a Tiefling Sorcerer may end up a great hero, as the scorn of its heritage would demand a wealth of patience, coupled with the lingering knowledge that a simple incantation would deliver a magnificent example for those who can't keep their tongue in their place, but would ruin everything the Tiefling has strived for.

I can't understand why Ragathiel would be a bad choice, either. In that case, Ragathiel would be an exemplar for the Tiefling; perhaps the Tiefling is aware, or perhaps not, that Ragathiel has infernal heritage on its veins. Perhaps the Tiefling follows Ragathiel because of parallelisms; on its quest to quell its urges, a priest of Ragathiel preached about its deity, and some of the words made echo. Perhaps it was a legend, or perhaps it's the message, but something says "why this seems so familiar?" Now, that requires a heckuva lot of preparation, as you'd need to understand the deity pretty clearly and find an unusual way to acquiesce with him in a story sense, but not clearly enough. Eventually, as the Tiefling realizes the truth, its faith strengthens, knowing that overcoming natural urges is not just perfectly possible, but actually viable. Of course, you could simply ignore the bastard sword (I don't see why it's that awesome anyways, when a greatsword does better damage, and 1 point of damage on average with a bastard sword is meaningless on 1 hand if comparing it with a longsword) and behave like a gentleman, eschewing the traditional notion of chivalry for a more "modern" version. Perhaps your Tiefling isn't a Paladin, but a Bard that serves as a Don Juan for other men, considering that the sacrifice you make isn't one that others should, but at the same time inspiring the words of true fidelity. That's entirely throwing a curve ball yet still landing on the strike zone; heck, considering the adventure has to deal with Thieves, a Bard that serves as a combat foil and a social foil. I mean, what if he woos a lady belonging to the thieves into the side of Good, on behalf of a fellow party member, out of chivalric duty? Perhaps it could be the right-hand man of the leader or something; after all, being chaste and dutiful doesn't mean you need to have archaic feelings about love...
I'm trying to pick deity before class, since certain kinds of people tend to gravitate to specific deities. Like I said, Irori is pretty much THE god you worship if you're a monk, and while there ARE paladin codes for other deities, Iomedae is what immediately comes to mind when people on Golarion say the word "paladin." I'm not exactly interested in Bard as I'm playing one in a Kingmaker campaign (that has yet to start, since the other players haven't finished their characters yet), and I hate playing two characters of the same class at the same time because I feel that that's weak roleplaying to play what essentially becomes the same character over and over. A good roleplayer should be able to pick up any class/race combination and make a credible character that fits with the campaign's narrative themes for the creation of a well-written story. The play's the thing, see.

And while Greatswords are interesting, the only deity that grants them is Gorum, a deity whose worship is outright banned in Cheliax, as they remember the days of the civil war that followed Aroden's death with horror. They see Asmodeus' regimented, soul-crushing evil as better than Gorum's desire for constant battle.

I'm concerned about Ragathiel mainly because he's relatively obscure compared with the big-name gods, and people know the main reasons he's selected: He's one of the few Good deities that has Destruction as a domain, which is considered one of the best domains in terms of power, and aside from Ragathiel is mainly limited to evil deities like Rovagug and Zon-Kuthon. He grants the Bastard Sword as a favored weapon, which is generally considered a waste of a feat if you're not a fighter, but was still a solid weapon until the falcata came along. He's also not one of the big-name gods, which guarantees your character who worships him will be a special little snowflake. I agree that Ragathiel is a perfect deity for this character, but I'm concerned potential GMs won't see that, instead thinking I picked Ragathiel to be munchkiny and hipstery ("My deity's pretty cool. You probably haven't heard of him.")

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm trying to pick deity before class, since certain kinds of people tend to gravitate to specific deities. Like I said, Irori is pretty much THE god you worship if you're a monk, and while there ARE paladin codes for other deities, Iomedae is what immediately comes to mind when people on Golarion say the word "paladin." I'm not exactly interested in Bard as I'm playing one in a Kingmaker campaign (that has yet to start, since the other players haven't finished their characters yet), and I hate playing two characters of the same class at the same time because I feel that that's weak roleplaying to play what essentially becomes the same character over and over. A good roleplayer should be able to pick up any class/race combination and make a credible character that fits with the campaign's narrative themes for the creation of a well-written story. The play's the thing, see.

I find you said it better than I did. Tying a deity to a race and class shouldn't always mean mechanical benefits: Irori or Ragathiel can be interesting deities, but if you divorce them from class, you have to rely a bit more on their fluff aspect. Influencing your choice of class by the choice of deity is a simplification, but perhaps not as rewarding as just trying to figure out how X race and Y class fit with Z deity for A concept. Once you get the first few bits, the rest comes naturally; the quirks begin to flow, and the character takes on a life of its own.


And while Greatswords are interesting, the only deity that grants them is Gorum, a deity whose worship is outright banned in Cheliax, as they remember the days of the civil war that followed Aroden's death with horror. They see Asmodeus' regimented, soul-crushing evil as better than Gorum's desire for constant battle.

I was mentioning greatswords because, mechanically speaking, they're better than bastard swords because they don't need a feat to be used and they deal more damage than the bastard sword if the idea is to go with two-hand weaponry (a glaive is better, of course). On the other hand, if you need some versatile weaponry, a longsword offers pretty much exactly the same as a bastard sword aside from 1 point less damage; that can be offset by the return from Power Attack (even as it is on PF) and other traits. You basically save a feat for something that gives too little returns.


I'm concerned about Ragathiel mainly because he's relatively obscure compared with the big-name gods, and people know the main reasons he's selected: He's one of the few Good deities that has Destruction as a domain, which is considered one of the best domains in terms of power, and aside from Ragathiel is mainly limited to evil deities like Rovagug and Zon-Kuthon. He grants the Bastard Sword as a favored weapon, which is generally considered a waste of a feat if you're not a fighter, but was still a solid weapon until the falcata came along. He's also not one of the big-name gods, which guarantees your character who worships him will be a special little snowflake. I agree that Ragathiel is a perfect deity for this character, but I'm concerned potential GMs won't see that, instead thinking I picked Ragathiel to be munchkiny and hipstery ("My deity's pretty cool. You probably haven't heard of him.")

If someone pegs you as a munchkin, it's probable that their idea of munchkinism is pretty, pretty, pretty vague. If you intentionally go with Ragathiel and another class (it doesn't has to be Bard; a Rogue works just as well, or perhaps a Witch if the idea of playing for and against type in a zig-zag method), there's no reason why your character should be munchkinny. On the other hand, playing a Tiefling already might raise someone's alarms, even if the prospective setting IS filled with them. If you choose deity before class and then you choose a fitting class, then it's possible that people may lambast you because of some sort of odd association between classes and relative power. Heck, while I don't agree with the idea, some people may consider PF Paladin the sign of a munchkin on board, if only because it's chock-full of abilities and the divine mark of dealing damage equal to your level ...erm, smite (good grief, I can't even refer to it as a smite!) coupled with a rare class and an equally rare deity might just push it. However, if you tie X race and Z deity because of fluff reasons, and then choose a class that might just seem unusual (perhaps not Rogue because that's the favored class of Tieflings) will lower the alarms. Perhaps you're too worried that you may hog the spotlight, but being modest can fix things quite a bit (instead of being outspoken, you can be that guy who has a magnificent presence because of its heritage, all without saying a word, or speaking as brief as possible).

[deuxhero]

He's one of the few Good deities that has Destruction as a domain, which is considered one of the best domains in terms of power

Except its not. The domain spells are... eh. True Strike and Rage are good, the rest, bar Disintegrate which isn't very good, are alreddy on the cleric list and not even reduced level. The powers aren't too great either. If anyone thinks it's cheesy, show them Feather. Competent Meatshield that rivals the fighter for a feat, a good class skill, some literally game changing spells (that are boosted by the power of the domain) and a bonus to the most rolled skill in the game. Aside from some lackluster domain spells, the domain is pretty much perfect for any Cleric OR inquisitor.

You could cherry pick a deity for an odd domain combo like General Susumu getting Animal (and thus feather) and War (and thus Tactics for rerolling initiative) and Longbow as favored weapon makes a great choices for Cleric 1/Inquisitor 19... oh wait he doesn't actually get Animal despite being GOD OF HORSES with a winged horse as his holy symbol! Pazio editing *shakes fist*!

And it doesn't really matter for you anyways unless you take Sacred Servant Paladin, as domain choice only matters for them clerics, inquisitors, and to a lesser degree, druids.

[Kol Korran]

I'm concerned about Ragathiel mainly because he's relatively obscure compared with the big-name gods, and people know the main reasons he's selected: He's one of the few Good deities that has Destruction as a domain, which is considered one of the best domains in terms of power, and aside from Ragathiel is mainly limited to evil deities like Rovagug and Zon-Kuthon. He grants the Bastard Sword as a favored weapon, which is generally considered a waste of a feat if you're not a fighter, but was still a solid weapon until the falcata came along. He's also not one of the big-name gods, which guarantees your character who worships him will be a special little snowflake. I agree that Ragathiel is a perfect deity for this character, but I'm concerned potential GMs won't see that, instead thinking I picked Ragathiel to be munchkiny and hipstery ("My deity's pretty cool. You probably haven't heard of him.")

i suggest ot choose him, since as far as i gather (i may be wrong) you really connect to him. and this is very important. the benefits are not that big, but if you worry, i suggest to explain in the application/ talk with the DM your reasons for choosing him, as you have done with us. i think it might prove to be an interesting character for the DM to plan for, and so it will enrich the game.

if you go with another deity do so to challenge yourself to play something you're not so well connected to. in that case i'd choose the one farthest from your natural inclinations, but it's a risky bet- either you'll come to love what comes out of it, or you might never be satisfied. which is why i again suggest Ragathiel.

good luck to you, sounds like an interesting character. :smallamused:

[Larpus]

i suggest ot choose him, since as far as i gather (i may be wrong) you really connect to him. and this is very important. the benefits are not that big, but if you worry, i suggest to explain in the application/ talk with the DM your reasons for choosing him, as you have done with us. i think it might prove to be an interesting character for the DM to plan for, and so it will enrich the game.

if you go with another deity do so to challenge yourself to play something you're not so well connected to. in that case i'd choose the one farthest from your natural inclinations, but it's a risky bet- either you'll come to love what comes out of it, or you might never be satisfied. which is why i again suggest Ragathiel.

good luck to you, sounds like an interesting character. :smallamused:
Agreed.

It seems to me that the choice was already made and you're trying to either run from it or rationalize it, especially since you yourself seem to think of it as rather cheesy. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, I do it all the freaking time.

Anyway, as mentioned, you seem to feel a strong connection with this deity and thematically it also seems to tie pretty well with your character concept, so trying to go some other way that is close but no cigar might undermine your fun or connection with the character.

Also, keep in mind that another valid interpretation of a Tiefling's "evil tendencies" might be "eviler than most people but not strictly evil". Something like Miko from OOTS, who is LG but with a more strict and less forgiving/merciful interpretation of LG.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Except its not. The domain spells are... eh. True Strike and Rage are good, the rest, bar Disintegrate which isn't very good, are alreddy on the cleric list and not even reduced level. The powers aren't too great either. If anyone thinks it's cheesy, show them Feather. Competent Meatshield that rivals the fighter for a feat, a good class skill, some literally game changing spells (that are boosted by the power of the domain) and a bonus to the most rolled skill in the game. Aside from some lackluster domain spells, the domain is pretty much perfect for any Cleric OR inquisitor.

You could cherry pick a deity for an odd domain combo like General Susumu getting Animal (and thus feather) and War (and thus Tactics for rerolling initiative) and Longbow as favored weapon makes a great choices for Cleric 1/Inquisitor 19... oh wait he doesn't actually get Animal despite being GOD OF HORSES with a winged horse as his holy symbol! Pazio editing *shakes fist*!

And it doesn't really matter for you anyways unless you take Sacred Servant Paladin, as domain choice only matters for them clerics, inquisitors, and to a lesser degree, druids.
Inquisitors don't get the spells from a domain...only class features. I'm starting to lean more towards Inquisitor as it has a good amount of skills (which I'd feel naked without) as well as divine casting.

Agreed.

It seems to me that the choice was already made and you're trying to either run from it or rationalize it, especially since you yourself seem to think of it as rather cheesy. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, I do it all the freaking time.

Anyway, as mentioned, you seem to feel a strong connection with this deity and thematically it also seems to tie pretty well with your character concept, so trying to go some other way that is close but no cigar might undermine your fun or connection with the character.

Also, keep in mind that another valid interpretation of a Tiefling's "evil tendencies" might be "eviler than most people but not strictly evil". Something like Miko from OOTS, who is LG but with a more strict and less forgiving/merciful interpretation of LG.
It's more that I haven't decided what the character will be beyond "tiefling who found religion for some reason and became LG." Let me put it like this. This character could turn out to be:

A stereotypical paladin of Iomedae
A monk who hopes to purge his infernal blood in the next life by following Irori's example
An inquisitor with an anger problem who sees a kindred spirit in Ragathiel
A chivalrous and sensitive knight who follows Shelyn, the only being in the multiverse who could love a tiefling
A seemingly crazed street preacher running a free hospital and illegal shrine in the sewers

He could be a quiet conscientious objector or a rabble-rouser, a knight in shining armor or a healer in a robe, he could honestly be ANYTHING. I don't have any idea of personality besides the alignment, and that's why I was hoping selecting a deity would fill in the blanks, but I'm not sure what makes the most narrative sense. And Shelyn's the only one where having ranks in Perform (act) would make sense, the skill being necessary for success in the second part of the Adventure Path, The Sixfold Trial, where the main character in the murderplay is a tiefling, and there's the possibility of starting a romance with one of the other actors and potentially making her a cohort if the GM is okay with it. My friend says I'm focusing way too much on that part of the story but I really, really, REALLY want that romance as it's another great narrative thing, with the tiefling being a monster playing at being a hero, and the actress being a sweet and somewhat naive girl playing a horny erinyes. I want to take advantage of that juxtaposition to make the story that results all the more tighter.

I suppose a better question would be "What deity makes the most narrative sense in the context of the broader story and themes of Council of Thieves?" In that case it has to be Iomedae, as she's the only one whose followers get any major screen-time aside from the worshipers of Asmodeus and more importantly Mammon, who are the bad guys.

What I want, in essence, is to create a character who best represents the themes and ideas Council of Thieves puts forward and discusses over the course of the campaign, a sort of single-character microcosm of the ideas put forward, like the difference between appearance vs. reality (the murderplay being seen as high art, for example, and the fact that the final battle in the last part of the adventure is actually staged to fool the House of Thrune into handing the reins of power to the masterminds behind it), how when power is misused it has serious consequences (the bount pit fiend in the mayor's estate that powers its magical amenities, the use of the Totemrix to create the shadows and undead plaguing Westcrown's nights, and the Hellknight's myopic focus on chasing phantom rebel groups while basically walking all over the dottari resulting in them being blindsided when the Council engineers a schism among them), and how greed is a source of great misery (this whole thing started because Eccardian's father wanted more power and was willing to take stupid risks to achieve it, the Bastards of Erebus brought the wrath of the PCs down on their heads when they became too bold in their robberies and moved to outright murder, and how Eccardian's desire for power eventually turned his sister, the one person who cared about him, against him and ultimately led to his demise).

[Larpus]

I see.

Sadly, I'm not familiar enough with the narrative to give any worthy insight.

That said, when I mentioned Miko, it was just regarding her interpretation of LG, not suggesting you make it "just like her" or even "make a Paladin", it was just to expand a bit on the theme of "what does it mean to be something intrinsically evil that is trying to do good?".

[deuxhero]

Inquisitors don't get the spells from a domain...only class features.

And every single one of Feather's is great. A bonus to a good skill an inquisitor alreddy has as a class skill reliant upon his main attribute making any "roll perception" into "You see ____", a meat shield, and improved flight (expected at higher levels).

Destruction gives you... a tiny bit more damage (and its a morale bonus, which depending on your party may be redundant) and some times a day give your entire party that bonus+auto confirm crits (Which is again, dependent upon the party being martial heavy)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see.

Sadly, I'm not familiar enough with the narrative to give any worthy insight.
You want me to provide a synopsis? I'd be more than happy to. :smallsmile:

That said, when I mentioned Miko, it was just regarding her interpretation of LG, not suggesting you make it "just like her" or even "make a Paladin", it was just to expand a bit on the theme of "what does it mean to be something intrinsically evil that is trying to do good?".
No, no, I understood that. It was more a response to your statement "You seem to have made your decision and are trying to rationalize it or talk yourself out of it." Ragathiel is an excellent option for any redemption-seeking tiefling. However, in the grand scheme of the storyline, he becomes a foreign element. He doesn't have the same stake in Cheliax's conflict that Iomedae and Asmodeus, the two deities the campaign pays the most attention to, have. And furthermore, what separates Ragathiel from Iomedae in terms of flavor? They cover similar portfolios and are both knightly figures. In fact, Iomedae's herald used to be Ragathiel's. I really, really like Ragathiel, and you're right that I really think he'd work well as the character's patron, but I don't want this to come out of left field story-wise. The setting info doesn't really say where Ragathiel, or any of the Empyreal Lords for that matter, are popular, aside from Sarenrae, who used to be one before Asmodeus slew his brother Ihys, her creator, and she took his place as the guardian of mortal free will. Where would he have learned about Ragathiel? Why would Ragathiel, a pseudo-deity who doesn't even have an organized church, have inquisitors? Or should I go Cleric/Holy Vindicator instead? How do I make what the character seems to be shaping up to (a tiefling inquisitor of Ragathiel) sound plausible in the context of Westcrown's troubles? This is territory the Player's Guide to the Adventure Path obviously doesn't handle.

And every single one of Feather's is great. A bonus to a good skill an inquisitor alreddy has as a class skill reliant upon his main attribute making any "roll perception" into "You see ____", a meat shield, and improved flight (expected at higher levels).

Destruction gives you... a tiny bit more damage (and its a morale bonus, which depending on your party may be redundant) and some times a day give your entire party that bonus+auto confirm crits (Which is again, dependent upon the party being martial heavy)
:smallfurious: And if you take the Rage subdomain, which Ragathiel has, it gives you the ability to rage like a barbarian without having to multiclass, plus a couple rage powers. :smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Then that's the rage subdomain and not the destruction domain.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Then that's the rage subdomain and not the destruction domain.
Sorry, I didn't know the etiquette for describing various things of that nature. :smallredface:

[Larpus]

You want me to provide a synopsis? I'd be more than happy to. :smallsmile:
Well, if you'd like to go through such trouble, then sure, I'd be glad to read it.


No, no, I understood that. It was more a response to your statement "You seem to have made your decision and are trying to rationalize it or talk yourself out of it." Ragathiel is an excellent option for any redemption-seeking tiefling. However, in the grand scheme of the storyline, he becomes a foreign element. He doesn't have the same stake in Cheliax's conflict that Iomedae and Asmodeus, the two deities the campaign pays the most attention to, have. And furthermore, what separates Ragathiel from Iomedae in terms of flavor? They cover similar portfolios and are both knightly figures. In fact, Iomedae's herald used to be Ragathiel's. I really, really like Ragathiel, and you're right that I really think he'd work well as the character's patron, but I don't want this to come out of left field story-wise. The setting info doesn't really say where Ragathiel, or any of the Empyreal Lords for that matter, are popular, aside from Sarenrae, who used to be one before Asmodeus slew his brother Ihys, her creator, and she took his place as the guardian of mortal free will. Where would he have learned about Ragathiel? Why would Ragathiel, a pseudo-deity who doesn't even have an organized church, have inquisitors? Or should I go Cleric/Holy Vindicator instead? How do I make what the character seems to be shaping up to (a tiefling inquisitor of Ragathiel) sound plausible in the context of Westcrown's troubles? This is territory the Player's Guide to the Adventure Path obviously doesn't handle.
First, I apologize for misunderstanding your position.

Now, for the deities, from my understanding of their portfolios, forgive me if I'm wrong, I know much more of the trickster and evil deities due to my own Tiefling character, which was similar to yours in wanting to break from his kin's "curse" but unlike yours by being driven to control his infernal blood (he was an Alchemist, so I had him as one of Haagenti's bastard sons). But I digress.

It seems to me that while both deities do have very similar things going for them, Iomedae seems to be the "shield", while Ragathiel is the "sword", as in, Iomedae seems to be more about protecting (not that she's passive or weak), while Ragathiel is more about retribution or rightful vengeance (not that he would leave innocents to die).

As for becoming a follower, as you mentioned, both deities are similar enough that, for example, you could have your character be a young devout of Iomedae in a church or something, but always clashing with others due to your more violent interpretation of "doing good", until one day when you come in contact with a follower of Ragathiel, who initiate you in his teachings. Or maybe one of the clerics notice you're getting depressed over how you're "just like a demon who only knows destruction" and tells you about Ragathiel, in an attempt to teach you that even destruction can be a good thing as long as it's guided and rightful.

While the reason for you being there, both being LG "justice" deities, I could easily see their followers getting the exact same missions and cooperating with each other (even under the other deity's flag) when needed.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, if you'd like to go through such trouble, then sure, I'd be glad to read it.
WARNING! LONG POST AHEAD! COUNCIL OF THIEVES SPOILERS ABOUND! SAVE YOUR GAME!!!
Council of Thieves takes place almost entirely in Westcrown, the former capital city of Cheliax. Originally Cheliax worshiped the god of humanity, Aroden, who also was Iomedae's patron when she was a mortal. It was predicted that at the turn of the age, Aroden would return to the mortal world and would replace Cheliax's emperor, ushering in a new golden age. Naturally, Cheliax was hit hard when Aroden died instead. The civil war that followed was incredibly brutal, so brutal, in fact, that the people of Cheliax were actually relieved when the Thrice Damned House of Thrune seized power thanks to a bargain they'd made in secret with Asmodeus himself, granting them devils to use as soldiers. Not everyone was happy with this, prompting Andoran, Molthune, Nirmathas and Galt to break away with varying degrees of success. With the capital moved to Egorian, Westcrown went into a decay that's lasted several decades now. It's been made even worse by the arrival of strange shadow beasts that roam the streets at night, prompting an unofficial curfew.

It was into this sad situation that Eccardian Drovenge was born. Eccardian was born a tiefling, but not just an ordinary tiefling. His father Sidonai had made a bargain with the Coven of Flies, a trio of hags who lived outside the city. They gave him a gold coin from the hoard of Mammon, ruler of the third level of Hell, and instructed him to swallow it before he next coupled with his wife, and the resulting child would have infernal power that House Thrune would have no choice but to respect. What Sidonai wasn't aware of, however, was that Mammon has no body, and his consciousness is within every single piece of treasure throughout his vaults. Sidonai was possessed by the Lord of the Third that night, making Eccardian, with his golden skin and silver hair, Mammon's own son.

When the child was born, Sidonai's father, Vassindio Drovenge, was horrified and had Sidonai's wife and maids who attended the birth killed, thinking she'd cuckolded them. This prompted Sidonai to tell his father everything. Vassindio admonished his son for his stupidity, and sent him to live in the family's holdings in Taldor. Sidonai left Westcrown and was never heard from again. In the meantime, Vassindio had nearly everyone who knew of Eccardian's conception assassinated, including two of the Coven of Flies, leaving only the Mother of Flies, who'd been away at the time. But surprisingly, the old man couldn't bring himself to kill Eccardian too. He raised Eccardian as his own grandson, and as Eccardian grew, he developed a close bond with his human sister, Chamaddy.

Eventually, things in Westcrown grew worse, and Vassindio decided to send Eccardian to Taldor, where he intended to let the embarassment of having a tiefling for a grandson fade into obscurity. Upset over this, Eccardian and Chamaddy began to scheme in secret, deciding to overthrow their grandfather and take over the titular Council of Thieves, and then use its resources to seize Westcrown for themselves. Eventually they had all the pieces in place for their scheme, until the PCs become involved.

This is basically the background of what's going on. Shall I continue?

First, I apologize for misunderstanding your position.
'Tis cool. :smallsmile:

Now, for the deities, from my understanding of their portfolios, forgive me if I'm wrong, I know much more of the trickster and evil deities due to my own Tiefling character, which was similar to yours in wanting to break from his kin's "curse" but unlike yours by being driven to control his infernal blood (he was an Alchemist, so I had him as one of Haagenti's bastard sons). But I digress.

It seems to me that while both deities do have very similar things going for them, Iomedae seems to be the "shield", while Ragathiel is the "sword", as in, Iomedae seems to be more about protecting (not that she's passive or weak), while Ragathiel is more about retribution or rightful vengeance (not that he would leave innocents to die).

As for becoming a follower, as you mentioned, both deities are similar enough that, for example, you could have your character be a young devout of Iomedae in a church or something, but always clashing with others due to your more violent interpretation of "doing good", until one day when you come in contact with a follower of Ragathiel, who initiate you in his teachings. Or maybe one of the clerics notice you're getting depressed over how you're "just like a demon who only knows destruction" and tells you about Ragathiel, in an attempt to teach you that even destruction can be a good thing as long as it's guided and rightful.

While the reason for you being there, both being LG "justice" deities, I could easily see their followers getting the exact same missions and cooperating with each other (even under the other deity's flag) when needed.
Okay, I see that. And how would these deities justify what amounts to skullduggery in Westcrown?
Over the course of the Adventure Path, the PCs join a secret group of "concerned citizens" that are basically rebels, rob the manor of the Lord Mayor, break into the closed and haunted Pathfinder Lodge of Delvehaven, fraternize with the Mother of Flies to gain an advantage, and manage to get on the sh*t list of just about every major authority figure in Westcrown: the dottari (the city guard, basically), the Hellknight Order of the Rack, the Council of Thieves and several nobles in town. Not exactly Lawful.

[Kol Korran]

Okay, I see that. And how would these deities justify what amounts to skullduggery in Westcrown?
Over the course of the Adventure Path, the PCs join a secret group of "concerned citizens" that are basically rebels, rob the manor of the Lord Mayor, break into the closed and haunted Pathfinder Lodge of Delvehaven, fraternize with the Mother of Flies to gain an advantage, and manage to get on the sh*t list of just about every major authority figure in Westcrown: the dottari (the city guard, basically), the Hellknight Order of the Rack, the Council of Thieves and several nobles in town. Not exactly Lawful.

so a lot of underhand (or so it would seem) work need to be carried out. while i do not know the gods well enough, i think that good gods, even lawful ones might be ready to create some unrest, some civic disobedience, for the goal of creating a more just and benevolent government.

i'm used to play in settings were the gods are not proved-there-is-proof-in-the-records actual beings (Eberron) but what i found usually livens up religious play are couple of things:
1) the character's interpretations to occurrences and situations in the world that does not fit the patron easily.

once i played in the forgotten realms and i gave my not- quite- cannon interpretations to Lathander's teachings, helping me fit mroe to the campaign, and sparking a new novel approach to the god. the DM played it by Lathander expanding his teachings, refining them and what not, giving interesting moral and ethical situations in play which made me think and justify this new form of faith in the world.

i think that you might take either god, and perhaps find a slightly new meanings to their dogam and such (does PF give any kind of example excerpts) to fit your character nicely and in an interesting way to the campaign. just talk to your DM first.

2) figuring out YOUR purpose within the god's plan.

i think that you can play on especially being a tiefling to "enable" you to work on the fringes of the god's belief- being their somewhat shady, not fully legit, tool for difficult and unconventional situations. you can take it sometimes hard- you are not fully "of the fold". and sometimes it's comforting- thankfully your heritage gives you the insight, the mind frame that helps makes your god's work complete.

i think that might help give a bit of leeway for your actions outside the normally approved role of the followers of the god.

hope this helps!

[Zubrowka74]

LG Tiefling ? Dark skin ?

Make him a TWF Ranger. Equip with scimitars.

[deuxhero]

How long do Tieflings live in Golarion?

One of the Forgotten Realms books says they live roughly as long as humans, though that's not applicable here.

If they have any extended lifespan Aroden may be an option if you go Monk (and not need divine power) or Paladin (who get their divine power independent of a deity). He has only been dead for about 100 years, making it possible for any race with extended lifespan to have lived when he was alive.

Why the character would be worshiping him is pretty simple given he is the god of humans.

[Mustard]

Tieflings have a lifespan about as long as humans. Well, that's "human" tieflings, anyway -- elf and dwarf tieflings have human lifespans (EDIT: so all tieflings are in the same boat; I don't want "about as long as humans" and "human lifespans" to be interpreted as different amounts), according to Blood of Fiends (I may be missing a few details, but that's the gist).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

LG Tiefling ? Dark skin ?

Make him a TWF Ranger. Equip with scimitars.
A ranger isn't exactly useful, as Council of Thieves takes place almost entirely within a single city. :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

A ranger isn't exactly useful, in almost any case in PF

Fix'd it for ya. Anything they can do, Druid still does better (except for Cleric Archers).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, after rereading Cheliax: Empire of Devils, I think I may be moving towards a kind of synthesis of several of these concepts: The character will still be Lawful Good, and will follow Iomedae, but as a monk/priest rather than an actual paladin. I liked the description of the Children of the Upper Reach, a monastery devoted to Iomedae who have been developing a new martial arts style to combat the rise of the hamatulatsu style pioneered by the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes. And I'm starting to like the idea of flurrying, though with a longsword instead of a bastard sword. Really, any sword's fine so long as it's not curved.

So how would I go about this? The Children's style, melekatha, is described as a soft martial art consisting of dodges, holds and strikes that are meant to redirect the attacker's energy back at them. It sounds similar to real-world aikido, and it looks like it's best represented by the Flowing Monk alternate class features. I'd also need at least 1 level of cleric to have access to Crusader's Flurry. Plus, Monk has a majority of the skills I want for the character: Perform (to make the most of the Sixfold Trials), Sense Motive, Stealth, Intimidate and various Knowledges. Just pick a trait that adds Diplomacy to the list of skills and I'd have almost everything I want...though I'd feel kinda naked without Bluff. I'm one of those people who feels unless you've got all four skills covered (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive), then you shouldn't be the face, because you're missing a set of options.

Should I start a second thread in the 3.5/PF section for the crunch part?

[Zubrowka74]

A ranger isn't exactly useful, as Council of Thieves takes place almost entirely within a single city. :smalltongue:

Pathfinder has Urban Ranger :smalltongue:

[Larpus]

Okay, after rereading Cheliax: Empire of Devils, I think I may be moving towards a kind of synthesis of several of these concepts: The character will still be Lawful Good, and will follow Iomedae, but as a monk/priest rather than an actual paladin. I liked the description of the Children of the Upper Reach, a monastery devoted to Iomedae who have been developing a new martial arts style to combat the rise of the hamatulatsu style pioneered by the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes. And I'm starting to like the idea of flurrying, though with a longsword instead of a bastard sword. Really, any sword's fine so long as it's not curved.

So how would I go about this? The Children's style, melekatha, is described as a soft martial art consisting of dodges, holds and strikes that are meant to redirect the attacker's energy back at them. It sounds similar to real-world aikido, and it looks like it's best represented by the Flowing Monk alternate class features. I'd also need at least 1 level of cleric to have access to Crusader's Flurry. Plus, Monk has a majority of the skills I want for the character: Perform (to make the most of the Sixfold Trials), Sense Motive, Stealth, Intimidate and various Knowledges. Just pick a trait that adds Diplomacy to the list of skills and I'd have almost everything I want...though I'd feel kinda naked without Bluff. I'm one of those people who feels unless you've got all four skills covered (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive), then you shouldn't be the face, because you're missing a set of options.

Should I start a second thread in the 3.5/PF section for the crunch part?
Just read the explanation of the plot, nice stuff, will have to read it some day. And yes, those weren't the most lawful sets of actions there.

Well, I personally never been a big fan of Monks, but what concerns me the most is that you mentioned being the party face, wouldn't that end up giving you too much MAD problems?

[deuxhero]

Pathfinder has Urban Ranger :smalltongue:

Eh, honestly PF Urban Ranger was badly done. Trade your Favored Terrains (Which, remember, can include Urban) for Favored Communities (which explicitly avoids giving its bonus in rural parts of the community that wouldn't fall under FT:Urban) and a bunch of useful though not great stuff for really situtational stuff.

Only worthwhile part is Trapfinding+Disable Device for endurance, which is a one level dip anyways.

[Almaseti]

If it was me, I'd go with Shellyn. Just because the goddess is seen as being naive doesn't mean the character has to be, and the fact that Shellyn is worshiped in Cheilax makes it easier to explain why your tief would worship her. The loving everyone thing could be seen as naive, or it could be a sort of humility, where you try to love everyone because you acknowledge your own weaknesses and flaws and know that you aren't that far above anyone else. Or something.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Just read the explanation of the plot, nice stuff, will have to read it some day. And yes, those weren't the most lawful sets of actions there.

Well, I personally never been a big fan of Monks, but what concerns me the most is that you mentioned being the party face, wouldn't that end up giving you too much MAD problems?
Everyone has MAD problems in the second part of the path. EVERYONE. Specifically, you need to make a lot of Perform (act) checks and Diplomacy checks.

[Kol Korran]

Should I start a second thread in the 3.5/PF section for the crunch part?

i think you're already in the PF/ 3.5 crunch section... if you're mainly dealing with crunch, then maybe a second thread might be appropriate, though i'm not sure. if you're still aiming mostly at fitting the crunch to the story and concept of character, i think this thread might be fine, but i'd put a major EDIT at the first post, explaining your current dilemma.

A question out of curiosity: If you allready know the campaign so well, (as you seem to do) what is the appeal for you in playing it? seeing how sepcific acts will turn out? fitting well to the story? i'm curious as to me a mjor part of the enthusiasm in playing and DMing is seeing how input from unprepared players interacts with "fresh" situations, and how it might change my own perceptions or expectations from the game.

are the other players as aware of the plot as you? :smallconfused:

[Zubrowka74]

Eh, honestly PF Urban Ranger was badly done. Trade your Favored Terrains (Which, remember, can include Urban) for Favored Communities (which explicitly avoids giving its bonus in rural parts of the community that wouldn't fall under FT:Urban) and a bunch of useful though not great stuff for really situtational stuff.

Only worthwhile part is Trapfinding+Disable Device for endurance, which is a one level dip anyways.

Well then you could just do get a regular Ranger with "Urban" as it's terrain. My original statement was pretty much a sarcastic comment about the Drzzt ;)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

i think you're already in the PF/ 3.5 crunch section... if you're mainly dealing with crunch, then maybe a second thread might be appropriate, though i'm not sure. if you're still aiming mostly at fitting the crunch to the story and concept of character, i think this thread might be fine, but i'd put a major EDIT at the first post, explaining your current dilemma.

A question out of curiosity: If you allready know the campaign so well, (as you seem to do) what is the appeal for you in playing it? seeing how sepcific acts will turn out? fitting well to the story? i'm curious as to me a mjor part of the enthusiasm in playing and DMing is seeing how input from unprepared players interacts with "fresh" situations, and how it might change my own perceptions or expectations from the game.

are the other players as aware of the plot as you? :smallconfused:

There are no other players as of now. Hypothetical, remember? As for why I like playing campaigns when I already know what happens, it's mainly the experience of crafting a story. If I were to just make a character and enter into it blind, I'd find myself worried that the concept I came up with didn't mesh with the kind of story that was being told. For example, once I tried to join a Legend game on these boards. It was set in an honorable warrior society with an undead problem, as demon-controlled mages or something were descending on battlefields and raising the corpses. My character was originally intended to be a ragpicker, a person who scavenges trinkets from the dead and dying of a battlefield to sell, and I ended up being rejected because such an honorless character didn't fit with the kind of story the GM wanted to tell, and because with the undead and demons on the battlefield, people in that profession, which were historically desperate peasants, would have perished quickly. It's not so much about the discovery of what happens as it is the journey for me.

And besides, you get more of an understanding of Golarion and its people by reading the Adventure Paths, not just in the articles in the back of each book, but in how the characters in the adventures interact with the PCs and the world.

[Kol Korran]

There are no other players as of now. Hypothetical, remember? As for why I like playing campaigns when I already know what happens, it's mainly the experience of crafting a story. If I were to just make a character and enter into it blind, I'd find myself worried that the concept I came up with didn't mesh with the kind of story that was being told.
hhmmmm... when i looked up games, or when i DMed for friends of mine the DM usually gave some description (some do it in length, some less) of the game they are planning and the general lines for character creation (talking about flavor here) which would fit the game. then they might work with potentail players to fit the characters to the game better.


It's not so much about the discovery of what happens as it is the journey for me.
That is a valid point. i don't think the two have to counter each other, but it is a valid point. to me an essential part of a journey and a character's reaction is the unexpected elements, as it often brings things i couldn't have imagined for as a DM (and I don't want to know all possibilities, otherwise why have players?)

this may sound as if i'm trying to go against your way of doing things. it's not. i was just curious.


And besides, you get more of an understanding of Golarion and its people by reading the Adventure Paths, not just in the articles in the back of each book, but in how the characters in the adventures interact with the PCs and the world.

cool. i've read very little of Pathfinder's modules to date. (my group prefering 3.5 and not thrilled about Golarion so far) but they seem to have solid good material.

and with that i'll stop harassing you. :smallsmile:

[Lord_Gareth]

Zousha, do yourself a favor and don't play a monk. Not even a PF monk. There's one archetype that actually managed to crawl above T6 and it spends it days and nights pretending to be a spellcaster.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Then what SHOULD I play, hmm? I like the concept of being a faithful martial artist attempting to repress his natural aggression through a combination of meditation and prayer as well as practicing a combat style dedicated to redirecting an enemy's energy back at them. Not playing a monk would require me to basically change a lot of things about the character I thought I'd settled on.

I've got someone else telling me that I shouldn't select Iomedae simply because I've always picked her in the past, despite the grim fact that that's because so many of the Adventure Paths have given a large amount of attention to her and her followers, especially Council of Thieves, Carrion Crown and Curse of the Crimson Throne. I like Ragathiel, I really do, but I just don't see how I can tie him into the story when Iomedae is practically the exact same deity and is much more popular in the region and better connected to the story.

[Lord_Gareth]

Then what SHOULD I play, hmm? I like the concept of being a faithful martial artist attempting to repress his natural aggression through a combination of meditation and prayer as well as practicing a combat style dedicated to redirecting an enemy's energy back at them. Not playing a monk would require me to basically change a lot of things about the character I thought I'd settled on.

1. How does the Monk actually live up to that combat style in PF in any way, shape, or form when they built them entirely around Flurry?

2. Will your DM let you play a Swordsage? If not, have you considered a particularly pious Ranger?

[deuxhero]

Zousha, do yourself a favor and don't play a monk. Not even a PF monk. There's one archetype that actually managed to crawl above T6 and it spends it days and nights pretending to be a spellcaster.


Zen Archer is playable (not great, but playable), assuming you don't use the utterly inane flurry retcon, though could be limited in Urban Environments (you can't indirect fire with a ceiling, though the rules assume direct fire so it doesn't really matter). You run into problems if you start at level one because you have 3 GP left after a shortbow and 40 arrows with Monk starting wealth (A rank in Craft:Bow solves the issue outside of PFS). There also the issue of having a single archery feat (Noble Scion: Narikopolus, which doesn't do anything till level 2) you actually qualify for at level 1 RAW.


It's pretty front loaded though, so you may want to take the (Qinggong ) Zen Archer Monk 7/(Seeker) Empyreal Sorcerer 2/Arcane Archer route (Empyreal says you got your Sorcerery through meditation, so no fluff issues)

Hell, you could just go Empyreal Sorcerer 20 and say you are a "Monk" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html), being a guy who gains power through meditation.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

1. How does the Monk actually live up to that combat style in PF in any way, shape, or form when they built them entirely around Flurry?

2. Will your DM let you play a Swordsage? If not, have you considered a particularly pious Ranger?
1. Take a look at the Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/flowing-monk).

2. There IS no DM yet! This is solely hypothetical! I'm trying to plan my character out as best I can before hand so I can just bang it out the instant I get wind of a Council of Thieves game and can get my foot in the door as quickly as possible so I can play the character I WANT to play instead of needing to cater to my obsessive-compulsive need for party balance and making a character to round out the party's weaknesses. And as I said, Ranger doesn't really work well because the campaign takes place, aside from one very brief interlude, in a single city. Urban Ranger doesn't make sense because it has you add a different Favored Community instead of terrain, and how can this character do that if he never ever leaves Westcrown? I'm sorely tempted by Inquisitor, since it's essentially the Ranger to the Cleric's Druid, but how do you have an Inquisitor when the deity you really want doesn't have a proper church to keep in line, only scattered individuals and maybe a cult or knightly order or two, and you're probably the only one who worships said god in the entire city?

[Lord_Gareth]

Cut out the fluff to the class and use the mechanics to represent a particularly devout worshiper of your church that is not a paladin?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Cut out the fluff to the class and use the mechanics to represent a particularly devout worshiper of your church that is not a paladin?
There ISN'T a church. I just said Ragathiel is a majorly powerful angel generally worshiped with a group of other angels in a collective known as the Empyreal Lords. Worshiping them is rare. Worshiping a single one is even rarer, to the point where this character would basically be the only person in the entire city who worships Ragathiel. There'd be no heretics because there's no doctrine to deviate from. There'd be no temples, because there aren't enough people who know about him to form a congregation. I don't even know if he has a holy symbol. His followers are described as wearing a flame-colored sigil usually on their helmet, but there's no indication of what this sigil actually is. I like this "deity" because of the background we've been shown, that he was the child of an Archdevil, but now is one of the mightiest of angels, because he's a mirror of the character's condition, but that mythology is all there is. There is no discussion of practical concerns that would help in building an actual character background that makes sense within the context of the Adventure Path. I'm stumbling around in the dark here!

And before you tell me to make something up, I suck at making up meaningful characters that fit the themes and ideas of the story the GM tries to tell because I don't know what the themes and ideas of the story ARE unless it's a pre-published thing. How can one craft a story that could be considered good literature if the characters are a bunch of random combinations of class and race thrown together for nebulous reasons to go on adventures?