Multiple Martial Maneuvers a turn with multiple attacks?

[Fooliscious]

Playing around with a character I made based in Tome of Battle, and ran across a thought I can't find an answer to.

Currently my swordsage is lvl6, so its not immediately pertinent, but when it hits 8 and gets multiple attacks, can I launch a maneuver with each attack? Doesn't seem overly unreasonable, as you burn through them faster, with a greater chance of them failing vs more damage on a single turn.

Ex. Do not move, full attack at +6/+1, Hatchling's flame on the first and then Death mark on the second.

[INoKnowNames]

Playing around with a character I made based in Tome of Battle, and ran across a thought I can't find an answer to.

Currently my swordsage is lvl6, so its not immediately pertinent, but when it hits 8 and gets multiple attacks, can I launch a maneuver with each attack? Doesn't seem overly unreasonable, as you burn through them faster, with a greater chance of them failing vs more damage on a single turn.

Ex. Do not move, full attack at +6/+1, Hatchling's flame on the first and then Death mark on the second.

I'm pretty sure most maneuvers are not done as individual attacks, but as actions, such as Standard Actions, Full Round Actions, and so on. As such, no, you wouldn't be able to do multiple maneuvers in one turn in that way, simply due to your bonus attacks from your high base attack bonus.

Careful planing of attacks and other special abilities might enable such feats, though. But most of them are rather complicated.

*update* I just checked to be certain. Hatchling's Flame and Death Mark are both Standard Actions. Unless you have a way to perform multiple Standard Actions in a turn, you can not use both during an attack, even a Full Attack.

[eggs]

Most strikes are standard actions which include melee attack actions as part of their effects.

If strikes were options for attack actions, you could use every maneuver you have prepared at once in a single attack.

That said, you could use multiple maneuvers a turn with multiple types of actions, like a swift action boost, a move action teleport, a standard action strike, and a swift action teleport with Divine Impetus.

[Aegis013]

Iterative attacks aren't additional standard actions. You can't use two standard action maneuvers as a full action, even if you have two attacks from BAB.

[Flickerdart]

Your base attack bonus and iterative attack count plays absolutely no part in how many maneuvers you can activate in a round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually how overpowered it would be to allow standard action strikes to be used as attack actions? It would make the martial adept stronger sure; but there is the fact that one must take into account that while it definitely increases nova potential it reduces endurance quite significantly.

[Alabenson]

Actually how overpowered it would be to allow standard action strikes to be used as attack actions? It would make the martial adept stronger sure; but there is the fact that one must take into account that while it definitely increases nova potential it reduces endurance quite significantly.

It might only be a moderate boost to the Swordsage, but it would be a massive boost to the Warblade and Crusader, both of whom not only get more iterative attacks, but have recovery methods that are largely independant of the action economy.

[INoKnowNames]

Actually how overpowered it would be to allow standard action strikes to be used as attack actions? It would make the martial adept stronger sure; but there is the fact that one must take into account that while it definitely increases nova potential it reduces endurance quite significantly.

I don't see how it reduces endurance. What exactly do you mean by that?

As for how overpowered it might be... It'd probably give even the Barbarian a run for it's money when it comes to dealing damage. Diamond Nightmare Blade + Greater Insightful Strike + Strike of Perfect Clarity + Finishing Blow... that'd be pretty good for damage right there.

[Big Fau]

Actually how overpowered it would be to allow standard action strikes to be used as attack actions? It would make the martial adept stronger sure; but there is the fact that one must take into account that while it definitely increases nova potential it reduces endurance quite significantly.

Not as broken as a well-built Sorcerer, but they'd be unstoppable during combat.

[Flickerdart]

Allowing maneuvers to be activated on an attack action would be insane. Their damage and effects are balanced around one per turn. Being able to do five (4 iteratives + haste) would destroy everything.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't see how it reduces endurance. What exactly do you mean by that?

As for how overpowered it might be... It'd probably give even the Barbarian a run for it's money when it comes to dealing damage. Diamond Nightmare Blade + Greater Insightful Strike + Strike of Perfect Clarity + Finishing Blow... that'd be pretty good for damage right there.

I was thinking mostly of swordsages enduramce due the horrible refresh mechanic; but yes Warblade and crusaders won't be really affected by that.

[Fooliscious]

Thanks for the quick responses. By endurance he means you'd blow through all your readied maneuvers. I haven't really looked at the warblade and crusaders, so that makes sense.

My thinking was a melee attack is a standard action, and you can only do one strike per melee. Unless I haven't read enough it seems like the swordsages strikes didn't scale well at upper levels, so I thought there might be something I was missing.

[eggs]

My thinking was a melee attack is a standard action, and you can only do one strike per melee. Unless I haven't read enough it seems like the swordsages strikes didn't scale well at upper levels, so I thought there might be something I was missing.
ToB classes develop by churning low-level maneuvers out for higher-level maneuvers.

So they don't really have to scale - looking at DW, the level 3 strike that deals 6d6 area damage is replaced by the level 6 strike that deals 12d6 area damage, which is replaced by the level 9 strike that deals 100 area damage.

And this leaves aside the scaling that just happens with weapon attacks. The base 10ish damage per weapon attack for one attack action at level 1 develops into a base 60ish damage for 5ish weapon attack actions per round at level 20. So a level 1 boost/stance that adds IL to damage effectively deals 100x as much damage at level 20 as it does at level 1.

[Fooliscious]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying scaling wise.

Things like insightful strike are misleading. Sure, at max level you are doing 4x damage, but you are also only making one attack. That's what I meant when I said poor scaling, as I've heard that ToB was supposed to fix this somewhat.

[Chronos]

Burning through all your maneuvers in a single round would be a good thing. A maneuver you don't use in a combat is a maneuver you're not getting any benefit from. If you burn through them all, then you can just choose to continue making normal attacks, which would be the same effect as burning the maneuvers slowly except that more enemies would spend the fight dead, or you could choose to refresh them and then burn through them all again. The usual drawback to a "nova" is that for most classes, that means you're powerless for the rest of the day, but with a ToB class, you're all set to do the same thing again in the next encounter.

[Fooliscious]

Swordsages can only recover one manuever a round, via a full round of doing nothing.

[Malachei]

Swordsages can only recover one manuever a round, via a full round of doing nothing.

All maneuvers via full-round action with Adaptive Style.

And Swordsages need Adaptive Style so much it is considered by many to be a feat tax.

[eggs]

A common reading of Adaptive Style allows Swordsage to recover everything in a full round action.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying scaling wise.

Things like insightful strike are misleading. Sure, at max level you are doing 4x damage, but you are also only making one attack. That's what I meant when I said poor scaling, as I've heard that ToB was supposed to fix this somewhat.

If you're in a situation where a normal full-attack would do more damage than a standard-action strike, you can just use a normal full-attack (preferably with a good Boost buffing it.) It's not like that's an option an initiator class loses in trade for maneuvers.

The intent is to correct the fact that without specific optimization, melee characters are really lame when they *can't* full attack. Doing a standard-action strike for 80-100 damage looks really good when your alternative for most classes is moving and hitting once, or charging and hitting once.

[Spuddles]

Getting free movement, novel movement, new ways to detect things, and better ways to avoid dying are typically what people mean when they say ToB scales better than traditional martial types. Doing over 9000 damage is rarely much of a problem with any class.

[Fooliscious]

Benefi t: You can change your readied maneuvers at any
time by taking a full-round action.


Expended maneuvers are no longer readied. I don't read that as working that way. I agree with the versatility thought though. Was looking at it from a pure output standpoint.

[Malachei]

Benefi t: You can change your readied maneuvers at any
time by taking a full-round action.


Expended maneuvers are no longer readied. I don't read that as working that way. I agree with the versatility thought though. Was looking at it from a pure output standpoint.

Readying maneuvers makes them "available for immediate use".

[Darth Stabber]

Getting free movement, novel movement, new ways to detect things, and better ways to avoid dying are typically what people mean when they say ToB scales better than traditional martial types. Doing over 9000 damage is rarely much of a problem with any class.

Truth, since without ToB, Uberchargers are still throwing 1000s of points damage easy, they just can't do much else. Even a good portion of the strike maneuvers are just encapsulations of what traditional melee classes do through feats/feat chains.

[Morph Bark]

Getting free movement, novel movement, new ways to detect things, and better ways to avoid dying are typically what people mean when they say ToB scales better than traditional martial types. Doing over 9000 damage is rarely much of a problem with any class.

Like what? I know plenty of examples for the others (Sudden Jump, that Desert Wind maneuver or stance that allows you to hover), but for this one I only know a Tiger Claw stance that grants Scent.

[Darth Stabber]

Like what? I know plenty of examples for the others (Sudden Jump, that Desert Wind maneuver or stance that allows you to hover), but for this one I only know a Tiger Claw stance that grants Scent.

Hearing the air: diamond mind4 stance that grants blind sense

[Fooliscious]

Readying maneuvers makes them "available for immediate use".

...huh? That's not what adaptive stance does. It doesn't ready anything.

[Malachei]

...huh? That's not what adaptive stance does. It doesn't ready anything.

Adaptive Style, from Q&A:


Q: If you take the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle, pg. 28), can you pick new maneuvers and/or ready all maneuvers by spending a full-round action in the middle of combat?
A: Yes, you can use Adaptive Style to pick new maneuvers in the middle of combat. Since you are picking new maneuvers, they would all be readied. This is a clear advantage for a class such as the swordsage, who normally has to spend a full round action to recover a single maneuver, and would be a great feat to pick up.

Source. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525942/Tome_of_Battle_Q38;A)

Disclaimer: Q&A is not RAW. In this particular case, I think it is obviously a very good clarification. You may feel free to rule otherwise, though, or dig it up in your rulebook yourself. I can't access my ToB right now, so I can't do it for you.

[Answerer]

Expended maneuvers are no longer readied.
Incorrect. Tome of Battle quite explicitly states that they become "expended," not that they are no longer "readied." They are still readied, they're just also expended. To be used, they must both be readied, and not expended (also granted in the case of the Crusader).

And when you ready maneuvers, all of your maneuvers readied are available and unexpended.

Note that Adaptive Style specifically calls out its "Benefit" compared to the "Normal" five-minute changes. Adaptive Style allows you to do everything that you could normally do with that five-minute change of readied maneuvers in a full-round action.

It's not a reading or interpretation, it is the rule.

Furthermore, to rule otherwise is a rather considerable nerf to the Swordsage, already (slightly) the weakest of the initiators. Tome of Battle's balance is so tight that I cannot begin to imagine why you'd want to mess with it.

[eggs]

Things like insightful strike are misleading. Sure, at max level you are doing 4x damage, but you are also only making one attack. That's what I meant when I said poor scaling, as I've heard that ToB was supposed to fix this somewhat.Greater Insightful Strike makes one attack for 4x damage at full attack bonus. Considering target AC, that's about the same damage as a full attack - and melee classes' full attack damage scales very well.

In terms of ToB classes scaling better, as has been touched on, it's not their numbers that scale particularly well compared to other melee classes - most level 20 Warblades do the same 250ish damage per round that the core Fighter does on a full attack - it's their utility abilities. The Swordsage and Warblade aren't shut down as soon a Wall of Stone crops up on the scene, they have tools to deal with Invisibility when level 2 wands become pocket change, and they have the abilities to maintain damage output when full attacks become the [flawed] assumption for keeping melee damage relevant.

What makes Adaptive Style interpretation-reliant is that "changing" maneuvers isn't game jargon. It could mean readying maneuvers in a full round action or it could mean switching which maneuvers are prepared/expended.

[Fooliscious]

Well, if that's how it is accepted then who am I to argue. Thanks for your help folks!

[Boci]

Greater Insightful Strike makes one attack for 4x damage at full attack bonus. Considering target AC, that's about the same damage as a full attack - and melee classes' full attack damage scales very well.

Nitpick: Greater insightful strike deals damage equal to twice the characters concentration check. The maneuvres you are refering to are the (gem) nightmare blade line, also from Diamond Mind.

[Snowbluff]

What if I am a Thri-keen or Diopsid with Multitasking? How do partial actions actually work with this? :smallcool:

[Necroticplague]

What if I am a Thri-keen or Diopsid with Multitasking? How do partial actions actually work with this? :smallcool:

"Partial actions"don't exist in 3.5 proper, they are carry-overs from 3.0, where it was like how you acted when slowed(one move or standard). So i guess if we have to cram the two together, that would allow each of your pair of arms to make its own maneuvers, but considering how physical painful qualifying for multitasking is, you've earned it.

[Snowbluff]

"Partial actions"don't exist in 3.5 proper, they are carry-overs from 3.0, where it was like how you acted when slowed(one move or standard). So i guess if we have to cram the two together, that would allow each of your pair of arms to make its own maneuvers, but considering how physical painful qualifying for multitasking is, you've earned it.

Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, it can be a pain to qualify for, but for a Multiweapon/Two Weapon Fighter, it's really a small loss of a feat or two for incredibly improved action economy akin to a melee Schism. Consider that along with that, ToB was not written with Multiweapon fighters in mind, so it's a fair trade off in my opinion. :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, it can be a pain to qualify for, but for a Multiweapon/Two Weapon Fighter, it's really a small loss of a feat or two for incredibly improved action economy akin to a melee Schism. Consider that along with that, ToB was not written with Multiweapon fighters in mind, so it's a fair trade off in my opinion. :smallsmile:

Actually, Tiger Claw has a fair amount of support for multiweapon users, but (as far as I remember), the multiweapon-using maneuvers are normally full-round actions (except for one that's entire point is "attack with both weapons as a standard action").

[Morph Bark]

What if I am a Thri-keen or Diopsid with Multitasking? How do partial actions actually work with this? :smallcool:

Even if you'd have a many-armed creature with lots of weapons, if you'd limit multiple martial maneuvers in a turn to being based off iterative attacks, you'd still only get up to 4 strikes in a round, even if you had 5, 8, 27 or over a million attacks (though the latter is TO).