Best Gunslinger ever

[Morithias]

Hello everyone! I've been working on a new build idea, and I'm looking for a good way to make a sniper. As in "shoot them from 300 feet away killing them and then run like hell."

So far the build is a single level of exotist (fighter varient) with weapon pro with the pistol, the musket, the handcross bow, and the greathammer, and the handcrossbow focus feat (aptitude weapon free reload). I don't make very many snipers so I'm kinda outside of my element when it comes to min/max.

Anything out of Dnd 3.5 is allowed. The guns and ONLY the guns are taken from pathfinder ultimate combat 1. The rest of pathfinder is not allowed currently. Dragon magazine is allowed. Setting specific stuff is allowed.

We have an artificer in the party (also played by me...it's a LONG story) so assume any and all magical items are available.

The campaign is geslalt, prestige classes are allowed on both sides. The character will be evil aligned.

Any other questions will be answered ASAP but I think I've covered most of it.

Edit: or not. I forgot to mention, the creature must be medium size, due to her main establishing character arc being her relationship with the human prince.

Edit2: I think I wasn't 100% clear. I want her to be USING guns not longbows. The fact that the Stratos empire deploys muskets and pistols is one of the key reasons why they're the only monarchy left in the war-torn material plane. Plus she's dating the prince who INVENTED the musket.

Edit3: Since it got asked down further. The campaign starts at level 10, and will go all the way to level 30.

Edit4: Just talked to DM. I'm not allowed to do the "kill all 4 enemy generals from 300 feet away while abusing hide in plain sight and max/min hide skills." Apparently he thinks It'll take too much away from the other players.

So basically the concept has switched from "sniper" to "how much damage can we do with a touch attack with a x4 crit mod."

[Doughnut Master]

Well I don't know much about guns, but it's pretty easy to get up there with bows or crossbows. Far shot and the distance enhancement are your friends. Bows-->Cragtop archer. Crossbows, the Gnomish Crossbow Sight effectively gives you 2 extra range increments.

Hiding is important too. Ideally, you shouldn't have to run because a) no one will see you and b) everyone will be dead.

There's been some good TO on the subject if you're looking for inspiration. Last time I checked, I think they made an archer who had to be careful that his shots didn't reach escape velocity and leave orbit. Not exaggerating.

[Stabbald]

Well I don't know much about guns, but it's pretty easy to get up there with bows or crossbows. Far shot and the distance enhancement are your friends. Bows-->Cragtop archer. Crossbows, the Gnomish Crossbow Sight effectively gives you 2 extra range increments.

Hiding is important too. Ideally, you shouldn't have to run because a) no one will see you and b) everyone will be dead.

There's been some good TO on the subject if you're looking for inspiration. Last time I checked, I think they made an archer who had to be careful that his shots didn't reach escape velocity and leave orbit. Not exaggerating.

I always find it odd when people try to link real world physics to D&D. If you're going to get that realistic then you have far more pressing concerns, notably all of the laws of thermodynamics.

[Aeryr]

Oh, that's great I once did one of those as an NPC :smallsmile:

Note that since I am not familiar with guns I am going to use bows, I prefer those anyway.

Start with ranger and psychic warrior (since it's gestalt) and lets be human.

First level feats: Point blank shot, Weapon profeciency (bone bow), Hidden talent (minor creation). Make your composite bone bow, a dragon bone bow and elvencraft. 1D10, 140 feet, x3 that can be used at melee as a quarterstaff if need be (you won't need any other weapon ever)

At second level you take soulbound weapon with your bone bow, that forces to take weapon focus with it. Pick rapid shot with the ranger bonus feat.

At third level you can get far shot. Now your range is 210 feet.

At fourth level you gain ranger spells.

At fifth level you should take mountain warrior

At sixth you already qualify for depwood sniper your other level might be spent on binder, to be able to bind leraje that gives you +4 to Hide, precise shot and ricochet. woodland archer is a good feat at this level.

At seventh level you qualify for cragtop archer and get poison use. Note that there is a huge supply of poison available to you thanks to minor psionic creation.

etcetera

At level 12 you can hit any target in 300 feet without penalty, and shoot any target up to 300*15=4500 feet of you. You can hit two of them as a standard action due to leraje's ricochet. If you want to, you can make one attack to any one at 4500 feet without penalty. You can snipe pretty darn good, and move after it. If you pick improved precise shot due to the concealment reduction of the deepwood sniper it's going to be difficult hiding from you. You can use both psionics and ranger magic to enhance your sniping capabilities (or your hiding capabilities). You can have a raven as an urban companion, just to mock your enemies, or locate them.

Your bow enhancement can change and adapt depending on what you need. Also I suggest graving raptor arrows, just so they come back to you and they'll never know what killed them. Also I encourage to get spliting as an enhancement to double your damage and your poison chances. At the end the bow deals 1D10 damage and threatens 19-20 with a x4 critical with a range of 300 and a maximum range of 4500. It has a +3 enhancement that can be relocated to any individual enhancement whenever it's called.

Take note that you will still need cover to hide (if you really want to) but spotting you is still going to be difficult due to distance.

If you want something more precise on those lines, let me know :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I realized that I didn't referenced any stuff.

Ranger and Psychic warrior can be found on the SRD

Hidden talent and soul bound weapon can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

The bone bow is from frostburn, the dragon bone bow is from draconomicon, and the elven craft bow is from races of the wild. In races of the wild there are also several arrows that you might want to check.

Mountain warrior, and cragtop archer are from races of stone.

Deepwood sniper is from masters of the wild (it's not been updated to 3.5 so it's still legit)

Spliting weapon enhancement is from Lords of darkness

Urban companion is from here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a (it's better than an animal companion if you multiclass)

[Doughnut Master]

I always find it odd when people try to link real world physics to D&D. If you're going to get that realistic then you have far more pressing concerns, notably all of the laws of thermodynamics.

Because it's amusing.

[TehLivingDeath]

I always find it odd when people try to link real world physics to D&D. If you're going to get that realistic then you have far more pressing concerns, notably all of the laws of thermodynamics.

Relax, it's just a thought exercise.

[Last Laugh]

I haven't notice anyone describing Cragtop Archer, but as far as snipers go it is great. I'd love to see it with some sneak attack.

One of the class abilities lets you make 1 attack at maximum range without increment penalties.

[Aeryr]

Well Cragtop archer has been mentioned :smallconfused:

And... why would you use cragtop archer with sneak attack? If your sneak attack applies the enemy is no more than 30 feet (or 60 feet with crossbow sniper) and you don't have penalties in the first place to negate with cragtop archer.

Overall for me, the best classes at sniping from FAR away are:

-Deepwood Sniper, increases range, threat and crit, lessens the penalties of cover, combine with ranger spells like hunter mercy, enjoy.

-Cragtop archer, reduces the toll on shooting far away. Combine with the above for reach craziness.

-Pearless archer, grants SA, crafts arrows, lessens the penalties against cover, threatens as a reach weapon and has power attack with ranged weapons as a class feature.

Completing the build that I presented above, after checking it a little.

ranger 5 - deepwood sniper 10 - uncanny trickster 3 - Incarnum blade 2 // Psychic warrior 5 - binder 1 - cragtop archer 4 - Pearless archer 10

With an elven crafted bone bow made of dragon bone acting as both the soulbound weapon (PW ACF) and the blademeld (incarnum blade). His weapon has a +5 bonus (at least) and extra bonus that can be changed each time it's called (I suggest spliting, distance and maiming). It also threatens a crit on a 19-20 with a crit multiplier of x6.

It has a range of 140 (weapon) * 1.5 (far shot) + 120 (deepwood sniper) = 330 It can shoot up to 15*330 feet away 4950, being able to shoot once a round without penalties. He takes half spot penalties due to range.

He also is able to hit 2 adjacent enemies with one attack. And hiding (and moving) after a shot. If an enemy is at 30 feet he has 4d6 SA. He can use skill tricks to either pin point invisible creatures in 30 feet or make attacks as a touch attacks in 30 feet.

Furthermore he can use both ranger spells and psychic warrior powers to enhance greatly his capabilities. Spells that bear mention are: hunter's mercy (automatically crits), Branch to branch (+10 bonus to climb, can brachiate), camouflage (+10 bonus to hide), hawkeye (increase range by 50%, +5 to spot), exacting shot (automatically confirm crits against favored enemies), sniper shot (no limit on range of next SA), arrow storm (make one attack against every enemy within one range increment). Powers that bear mention are: minor psionic creation (to create poison), call weaponry (for your weapon), chameleon (+10 enhancement bonus on Hide), hustle (extra move action), psionic dim door (to get away).

He can reduce the penalty to hit due to cover or concealment by 60% and reroll anything that still misses. He can reroll 3 attacks a day (if he chooses to).

He can use raptor arrows that come back, and enhance them up to +5 due to his levels in pearless archer. An assassination, toxic, virulent, metalline +1 raptor arrow for 6506 gp.

[Morithias]

I think I wasn't 100% clear. I want her to be USING guns not longbows. The fact that the Stratos empire deploys muskets and pistols is one of the key reasons why they're the only monarchy left in the war-torn material plane. Plus she's dating the prince who INVENTED the musket.

Half of the stuff people mention doesn't work with guns only bows.

Nice find on the Deepwood sniper though, the peerless archer's power shot will also be good....Don't think about how you power attack with a gun too hard.

[Fyermind]

Anytime you are far enough away not to need to hide due to distance, you also need some boosts to your vision to spot your mark.
Things to emphasize therefor are:
Long range accuracy enhancers
Damage Enhancers
Vision enhancers
Hiding

Some great ways to do the above: numerous attacks is something of a must for landing a lot of damage without SoD/SoS effects. I don't like being dependent on my target having low saves, so I'm going the HP damage route. The other is perfectly reasonable as well.

Effects: Cragtop archer sacrifices attacks/round for long range and accuracy. We can't make that trade so it is out.

Sniper's shot only counts for a single attack so it is out meaning sneak attack is meaningless.

We want spells/psionics to boost attacks per round, and will be feat starved to get everything we want for accuracy and damage.

I suggest then: Psychic warrior// Divine Bard
We can take zen archery to key our shots off wisdom which is GREAT!!! This will reduce attribute dependancy a lot (15 dex for woodland archer and other archery feats, max wisdom for accuracy and power points and spot, anything else goes in strength, because that is a little bit of extra damage)
The bow everyone has been talking about sounds perfect.

There are already threads on optimizing Inspire Courage. Sniping is probably not a good thing, so words of creation are probably out of the question, but with dragonfire inspiration, lingering song, and song of the heart, inspirational boost (spell), badge of valor (item), and vest of something (item) you can still get over +7 to hit and +7 to damage and +7d6 to damage with ease.

Woodland archer is a must because it provides significant bonuses after missed shots.

Use powers and feats and spells to maximize attacks/round. With the attack and damage boost from DFI//Inspire courage and the accuracy from woodland archer your only issues will be sighting and numbers of attacks. You will have lots of feats to do this with and spells and powers both based off wisdom to further layer bonuses.

The songs will provide a 2+round buildup to the effect before attacks start in ernest. This may be a problem for close ranges so long range attacks are very preferable, alternatively subsonics (feat) will get your DFI/IC without making noise.

[doko239]

And... why would you use cragtop archer with sneak attack? If your sneak attack applies the enemy is no more than 30 feet (or 60 feet with crossbow sniper) and you don't have penalties in the first place to negate with cragtop archer.


Well, since the OP is using Pathfinder sources anyway, he could use the Sniper Goggles from PF APG:

Sniper Goggles

Aura faint divination; CL 5th

Slot eyes; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

The leather strap attached to these bulbous lenses allows their wearer to fit them to his head. The wearer of these goggles can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance instead of the normal 30 feet. When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die.

Bolded for emphasis. Probably the best single piece of rogue gear in PF.

[Morithias]

Snip

Dragonbard tons of damage....I like the idea.


Well, since the OP is using Pathfinder sources anyway, he could use the Sniper Goggles from PF APG:

NO! The dm was very clear on this. We are using the guns and ONLY the guns. No magic items, classes, or feats from Pathfinder may be used outside of "exotic weapon proficiency firearms"

[Andorax]

Actually, sniper to my mind does NOT say "see how many attacks per round I can get off". It's single-shot, do your damage, and then hide and look for another opportunity if the first shot wasn't sufficient.

Obviously, Sneak Attack (and the even more obvious Assassin's Death Attack) just don't work at long ranges, at least not without a piece of gear that has, apparently, been expressly banned despite it fitting the concept like a glove.

So, we turn to other methods to boost the single shot deadlyness. I honestly think that the Cragtop Archer is still a very viable...it doesn't specify bows anywhere in the class, just "projectile weapons". Particularly, the Horizon Shot ability (Full Round Action to outright ignore range increment penalties) sounds a whole heck of a lot like a sniper to me.


You can find a lot of advice (and heck, I'll even throw some in myself in just a bit) for enhancements to put on the bowgun and the arrowsshot themselves, but in the meantime, you might want to consider...

Magic Item Compendium:
Greater Crystal of Energy Assault (Cold). Adds 1d6 cold damage and reduces target hit's speed by 10' (non-cumulative) in the following round.

QuiverShot Pouch of Energy (Cold). Adds 1d6 cold damage to any ammunition that rest inside it for 1 round or more. (not sure if these have to be immediately drawn and fired or if they can keep their energy trait long enough to be loaded and subsequently fired later).

DMG:
Wand of Flame Arrow...or friendly wizard's casting of it. Adds +1d6 fire damage to up to 50 pieces of ammunition.


Anything that boosts your movement and/or ability to hide. Shoot, hide, find another spot...repeat.


I'm sure others will offer up plenty of suggestions for what abilities to tack onto your gun and ammo, but my personal favorite (assuming, of course, the DM permits a minor exception, since it's ordinarially only available to melee weapons) is Fleshgrinding (+2 bonus) ammo...see BoVD.

[Snowbluff]

Clerics make exceptionally good archers. Greater Magic Weapon is made of awesome. Knowledge Devotion, War Devotion, Strength buffs (Holy Transformation, Righteous Might, Divine Power), Zen Archery, and Rapid Shot.

You can't go wrong with a Splitting Bow. Raptor arrows are plain amazing, and become expendable really quickly (You get 2 back with each 1 you fire). Also, don't forget to get a good Str rating bow.

[Morithias]

-Snip- Also, don't forget to get a good Str rating bow.

Cleric could be an interesting idea. I'll look into it.

Also, I can't...or more accurately won't get the bow. GUNS people. I'll be editing this into the main post.

It's starting to look like sniping is a bit out of the question. I might just turn this into "how much damage can I do".

Shame that Hunter's mercy doesn't work with guns (also it doesn't work with crossbows so I'm 90% sure it's not going to fly...unless...wait...i'm using an aptitude weapon..hmm...)

[Aeryr]

If you are going to seriously go with the guns that brings a problem.

The guns are from pathfinder, but pathfinder (at least anything else) is not allowed, anything on 3.5 doesn't take into account the guns. So any ranged feat or ranged PRC that might be interesting is going to not work at all, because they are going to specify bow/crossbow. Personally I am more familiar with 3.5 and when I think off a sniper on 3.5 I think of a bow using sniper, when I checked the OP I thought that even if the firearms were allowed they were not mandatory, my bad.

Three ideas:

-talk to your DM and cheese out aptitude weapon so it works (It certainly should not) / consider using bows or crossbows that have material already supported by 3.5

-talk to your DM and see if he could allow more stuff from PF working with guns or would allow any thing from 3.5 to work on guns.

-Start looking at base classes, you are almost not going to get anything to improve your sniping with Prestige classes. Fighter seems more attractive than any PrC if taking guns.

Ps. Having said that... you should mention what level is the build for.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotums make excellent snipers. Use the spell that removes the range limit of sneak attack (and the one that removes the penalties for range increments), spend IP to add Int to Attack and Damage, and then blow the rest of your IP on Cunning Strike.

Max Hide and Move Silenty and basically just strike and fade, attacking once every five minutes or so (that being how long you have to wait for IP to replenish). You can be pouring out a ton of damage with a very minimal chance of being detected.

[Snowbluff]

Cleric could be an interesting idea. I'll look into it.

Also, I can't...or more accurately won't get the bow. GUNS people. I'll be editing this into the main post.

It's starting to look like sniping is a bit out of the question. I might just turn this into "how much damage can I do".

Shame that Hunter's mercy doesn't work with guns (also it doesn't work with crossbows so I'm 90% sure it's not going to fly...unless...wait...i'm using an aptitude weapon..hmm...)

In that case, Gunslinger 5, and/or Archetype/ACF the crap out of cleric to make it more Gun-friendly. Take Divine Agility (+10 Enh to agility) over the Str buffs, but Sacred Transformation is still good for the Sacred bonus to Con, and the broken subtype bonuses. Travel Devotion should 8e considered as well.

[Urpriest]

Factotums make excellent snipers. Use the spell that removes the range limit of sneak attack (and the one that removes the penalties for range increments), spend IP to add Int to Attack and Damage, and then blow the rest of your IP on Cunning Strike.


Note that if you do this you have to fend off Curmudgeon, since he believes that the sneak attack gained from Cunning Strike doesn't stack. Most people will rule that it stacks though.

[Morithias]

If you are going to seriously go with the guns that brings a problem.

Three ideas:

-talk to your DM and cheese out aptitude weapon so it works (It certainly should not) / consider using bows or crossbows that have material already supported by 3.5

-talk to your DM and see if he could allow more stuff from PF working with guns or would allow any thing from 3.5 to work on guns.

-Start looking at base classes, you are almost not going to get anything to improve your sniping with Prestige classes. Fighter seems more attractive than any PrC if taking guns.

Ps. Having said that... you should mention what level is the build for.

I just found the "Targetter" based fighter variant. Think I might use it. Deepwood sniper's abilities and the peerless archer's power shot RAW work with guns.

Sorry for not mentioning level. It starts at level 10, campaign is going to go all the way to level 30.

Thanks for all your help guys. I really do appreciate it, sorry if I seem a bit annoying.

[EndlessWrath]

I had a buddy just do this in my campaign. Made a Goliath with a goliath sized crossbow, I think it was a large Heavy Crossbow with gnomish site. He used the fighter variant you speak of, and took deepwood sniper (I think he did a variant on it as well but the normal one should help) and he took Cragtop archer. He was hiding and spoting things from 1000 feet away and popping shots as a full round sniping action. Belt of Battle was a big help with his build since the sniping action he took was a Full Round Action. So he'd get two in the same turn and hit something viciously. I'll try to find all the stuff from him but I think he got rid of the sheet seeing as how I killed him last session :smallredface:. I'll try to find all the reference material.

[Glimbur]

Clerics make exceptionally good archers. Greater Magic Weapon is made of awesome. Knowledge Devotion, War Devotion, Strength buffs (Holy Transformation, Righteous Might, Divine Power), Zen Archery, and Rapid Shot.

You can't go wrong with a Splitting Bow. Raptor arrows are plain amazing, and become expendable really quickly (You get 2 back with each 1 you fire). Also, don't forget to get a good Str rating bow.

Archivists can do most of that (all of that with a dip in Sacred Exorcist for turning, besides Zen Archery anyway) and they have the added perk of being able to use all those nice Ranger spells in Spell Compendium. You can do things like crit, get sneak attack, and other fun ranger things. They're decently balanced for a half caster and pretty silly for a full caster.

[DiBastet]

Dragon magazine allowed?

Well, I for one remember a variant of Scout that was a sniper of sorts: With a full-round action, you could make a ranged attack that applied skirmish if the opponent was at least 60ft away.


pinephrine06-02-2009, 12:42 AM
There's also a scout variant that gets sniper shot at any range, from a dragon magazine.

You can find it in the crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) base class list, however.

It could work

[limejuicepowder]

It would take some major refluffing, but I think the warlock is worth mentioning. Eldritch spear has a 250 ft range, with no range penalties. Virtually guaranteed to hit for respectable damage (good damage with hellfire warlock). Plus, they get lots of commando hiding-type abilities as well.

[Morithias]

Talked to the Dungeon Master. Not allowed to assassinate enemy generals from 300+ feet away. Assassination is another PC's job. Also our PC's are suppose to be the "generals" that are basically "representing" our armies. For example, my PC represents our musket units.

I'm thinking Deepwood sniper one side, and disciple of dispater on the other. One boosts crit multiplier, one boosts threat range.

The concept has gone from "sniper" to "how much damage can I do in a full round with a close range musket".

So what do you people think of that idea?

Sorry for wasting all your time! I'll be sure to keep your ideas in mind for later campaigns that allow snipers!