4e Hybrid Wizard/Cleric Help

[Matticussama]

Greetings, I am joining a 4th ed game with a group of friends (long time 3.5 player) and I was hoping to get a little build help with a Hybrid Wizard/Cleric. I understand that Hybrids are generally considered weaker than standard classes, but for roleplaying purposes I really love the idea of the Hybrid Wizard/Cleric of Corellon and don't mind not being completely optimized. I am planning on playing an Elf, again for the roleplaying factor.

We are going to start at level 11 using standard point buy for stats. My current stats are Str 11, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 19, Wis 18, Cha 18 although that isn't set in stone if people have any other suggestions. I am the 6th member in the party I'm joining, and they already have a Bard and a Psion in the party so I am more of a back-up healer/controller rather than having to specialize in either function.

I am mainly looking for feat and magic item suggestions to help make me as effective as I can be in that role, but I welcome any other helpful suggestions or build ideas as well. Thank you in advance!

[Reluctance]

Hybrid rule of thumb: If you can't articulate exactly what you want out of your hybrid, don't hybrid. You'll be far more effective as a cleric with a wizard MC, or just a straight cleric who takes arcana as a skill pick, and then focuses their arcane flavor on arcana based rituals.

Also worth asking. What do you want to actually do when the dice hit the battlemat? "Cleric" and "wizard" were jumbled catch-alls in earlier editions. Much like the druid's role was split up amongst the whole primal power source, the cleric's shtick has been split up among divine. Go for a role not present in the party already. Paladin would be safer, but would make things a boring slog. Avenger might be more your speed.

[Sol]

or just play an invoker.

hybrids that share no common stat preferences are /really/ hard to make playable.

[Matticussama]

My basic premise is to create a devout, holy Wizard to the god of magic. Mechanics wise I want to play a blasty Wizard who could also heal and use some of the Cleric's debuffing abilities, especially Zealous Sanction and Astral Condemnation both of which I think are really cool. I looked a little into the multi-classing options, but as I understand it the power choices you can pick up via multiclassing are extremely limited.

I'm used to playing a Mystic Theurge in 3.5, so I am ok with the thought of not being as mechanically powerful as a straight Wizard or a straight Cleric. I value versatility over raw power. However, I was hoping that there might be some feats or magic items that could boost the to-hit and damage of my spells so that I wouldn't be completely overwhelmed by elite monsters. So far I haven't found a whole lot of those on my own, which is why I was seeking out help on the forums.

[Reluctance]

To-hit and defense values are deliberately kept to a very narrow band to avoid allowing too much power difference between any two random characters. (See: Tier system, although nowhere near that bad.) Allowing items to make up the difference would just mean optimized characters would be big on the item game as well, not to mention going right back to making boring math items into must-haves.

Mystic theurges are fundamentally different from 4e hybrids. Never mind what I said about how an appreciable amount of magic has been recategorized as rituals, which anybody can use for a feat. (As a rule of thumb, if it's a utility spell in 3.5, it's a ritual in 4.) A feat which both wizards and clerics get for free. MTs are built with the assumption that what they lose in more powerful spells, they make up for in spell volume. 4e characters, with only a handful of exceptions, are based on the idea that everybody has a fixed number of "spell slots" for their dailies/encounters. What hybrids do is force you to split those slots between two roles, and quite likely between two non-synergistic stats, while removing the class features that support you in your role in the first place. "Generalist" is a role that is scrupulously avoided.

Your character gets three dailies and three encounters from their class, with one more of each from their Paragon Path. (Think PrC, except they're mandatory and you only get one ever.) A multiclass character can use a feat to swap one of their class picks for one from their second class - 33% of your class powers, 0% more powers gained - and can pick their paragon path from their multiclass' list as well as their own. It can work through multiclassing if you get your synergies right. Still, give up hopes of being the generalist/utility character. 4e is all about being a cog in a well-oiled machine. The temptation to be a do-everything leads to a character who can't do anything satisfactorily. You're not the swiss army knife caster. You're the character who took one level in every class.

[Tegu8788]

As the 6th member you have more leeway to be less optimized, which I cleric|wizard would certainly be. If you just want a magic healer, have you considered the Bard as well? Refluffing is really easy now. Invoker is basically a divine wizard.

If you want to play a divine and arcane worshipper of Corellon, I'd suggest slapping a Paladin with a Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock. Those classes all use Charisma as a main stat. Elf won't help you much stat wise, but I appreciate fluff. I've got a Paladin|Warlock/Bard fluffed as a magic using Paladin of Corellon, he's fun, and functions as a generalist fairly well. 4E wants a team focused group, but extra characters can dabble more without dragging down the party.

[Ashdate]

I think your best bet is to go straight wizard, picking up the Initiate of the Faith multiclass feat, and then look for powers you can "refluff" as divine ones, or do the opposite and start as a strait cleric and pick up the Learned Spellcaster multiclass feat. You can then use the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats to pick and choose the powers from the other class you want.

And I second pretty much everything Reluctance said.

[tcrudisi]

First, I'd like to say what everyone else said: There's only one way to make a bad character in 4e, and hybrid is it. Yes, it's that bad.

But if you are okay playing a very sub-optimal character instead of just refluffing something else, then I can work with it.

Second: your stats are terrible. To have your highest stat be 18-19 at level 11? Egads. Not only will your character have no focus and be weak at everything, you'll find that you are missing with a lot of your attacks, too, and be poorer in skill challenges than your straight-classed peers. You'll literally be behind the curve in everything.

So, dump Charisma. You don't need it. You want some? That's fine.

Personally, I would look at refluffing something else. Bard is a good fit except there aren't that many "blaster" powers. But, there happens to not only be a better way of doing this, but an easy one as well: multiclass cleric, take adept power and novice power. Swap out for those powers.

This even makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. You began as a wizard and at level 1 multiclassed into Cleric. So you literally began your career as a Wizard who worshiped whatever god it was you said you wanted to follow.

Personally, I would avoid Astral Condemnation. You don't really have the Charisma to make that an effective power -- or rather, you shouldn't have the Charisma to make that an effective power. 4e is all about increasing two stats. As soon as you make it three stats, you'll fail. At everything.

It's harder to improve your attack bonus than it was in 3.5.

Side note: if you expect the game to last a while, take the Divine Oracle paragon path.

Finally, I would do a stat array like the following:
Str 9
Con 14
Dex 13
Int 22
Wis 18
Cha 11

Int determines your most important skills (Arcana and Religion), your +hit bonus with almost all your spells, your AC and your Reflex defense. Wis is second because it will impact one or two of your powers, your ability to multiclass, and your second most important skills. Charisma is not important thanks to various cantrips you can take to make yourself still likable. Con is a nice tertiary for healing surges ... and maybe hit points if you want to use your background to improve Arcana or Religion.

[Matticussama]

Thanks for all of the feedback, everyone. My DM had told me that making a hybrid character would make me a little sub-optimal, but I didn't think it would be as poor as you're all describing it. I might need to re-think my character a little bit.

As a little bit more party background, the current party make-up is a Spellsword, Avenger, Warlord, Bard, and Psion. They have the key roles covered; they were excited by the idea of me playing a character that could add more utility, which is part of the reason I decided to try the hybrid classing options.

@Reluctance - You mentioned Rituals taking the place of most 3.5 utility powers. From what I've be told by my friends, Rituals end up eating away most of your gold as you level up; they warned me to shy away from rituals unless I absolutely had to. Is this not the case, or are there any feats that I can take to make using rituals more cost-effective? Since my main goal is to be more of a back-up/utility character I like the concept of being able to use them if I can make it efficient.

@tcrudisi - I didn't realize having 18s was so bad! I knew that other people in my party had 20 - 22 as their primary stat, but I didn't figure the gap would hurt me that much. Since there is already a Bard in the party, I would like to avoid going in that direction. What about Sorcerer? As I understand it, a Sorcerer's key powers are also based off Charisma, so if I built a multi-class Cleric/Sorcerer focusing on Wis/Charisma the high Charisma could help with both Sorcerer and Cleric powers couldn't it?

[Ashdate]

Not to butt in on your questions to other people, but as wealth is kind of exponential in nature, that costly level 3 ritual becomes quite cheap later when you've got buckets of gold. My group doesn't use them much, but see if you can find low-level ones you'd find useful; you'll likely have enough cash to use them pretty much whenever you want.

Cleric/Sorcerer makes more sense, but keep in mind that the Sorcerer is a striker (not a controller like a Wizard); you probably won't find the versatility in a class that is mostly about shooting fire and dragon breath at enemies. I have one in my group, and I don't think they bring the utility that your average controller would bring.

[WickerNipple]

Hrm. Honestly ~ I'm not feeling much of the advice you've gotten here.

Hybrids are something to be concerned about, because you can royally screw em up. But Wizard|Cleric natively works so long as you get the build right. Deva Wiz|Cleric + Orb + Divine Oracle is a staple of hybrids that work, and it's pretty much precisely the class you've described that you want. It can be very, very good - though it can never capture the flavor/mechanic of the old MT class. (Which I loved too, even thought I knew I "shouldn't".)

So to answer your question: Yes, Wizard|Cleric is a fine class. It needs to start at 18/18 int/wis, so it needs a race like Deva, and it has to forget about Charisma. But if you do that, it absolutely works ~ and if that's the class you want to play, yes, it can happen.

Invoker or Wizard|Invoker are fine options too for this sort of character.

Cleric|Sorcerer is a terrible idea, as it forces you to stack both Will stats and the classes don't complement each other. It's a recipe for failed hybridization. Don't do it.

However! Having now seen the rest of your party, I would be remiss not to tell you this class idea sounds like a poor party fit. A Warlord and a Bard and a Psion and (I assume you meant Swordmage?) means you guys reaaaallllly don't need more leadery/controllery types.

You folks need a Beatstick. Think: Rogue, Thief, Slayer, Executioner, Exe|hybrid, 2h Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger... even if it's not your normal cup o' tea or original idea. This party needs: acute melee damage the warlord can wield.

If you want a perfectly awesome lvl 11 Wizard|Cleric I can provide a sheet for one, but I definitely recommend you reconsider playing someone more murderface.

[Matticussama]

@Ashdate - That is a good point, I'll definitely look into some of the cheaper utility rituals and see what sort of versatility they would give me. Thanks!

@WickerNipple - I would definitely appreciate being able to see an example hybrid Cleric/Wizard. If I can look at a build that you think is good, I would definitely love to take some pointers. As far as beat-sticks, the party said that they were doing good in terms of raw damage which is why they liked the thought of me bringing more utility. Plus, I'm not a big fan of playing melee characters; I find them boring compared to the concept of playing a spellcaster. Thank you for the suggestion though. =)

[tcrudisi]

@tcrudisi - I didn't realize having 18s was so bad! I knew that other people in my party had 20 - 22 as their primary stat, but I didn't figure the gap would hurt me that much. Since there is already a Bard in the party, I would like to avoid going in that direction. What about Sorcerer? As I understand it, a Sorcerer's key powers are also based off Charisma, so if I built a multi-class Cleric/Sorcerer focusing on Wis/Charisma the high Charisma could help with both Sorcerer and Cleric powers couldn't it?

I was exaggerating some, but let's put it like this. You have Arcana 15. Your Swordmage buddy has Arcana 16. You enter into a skill challenge, what happens?

Answer: You assist your swordmage buddy, he always makes the rolls that count. Why? Because success and failure is important.

So you will never be directly contributing your skills to the party.

Then, you will miss more often than they do, too.

It's lose/lose.

A sixth character should be a class that brings something to the table. Not something that you will realize will be overshadowed by everyone else.

They have: Spellsword (Swordmage?), Avenger, Warlord, Bard, and Psion. That's defender, striker, leader, leader, controller.

You really don't need to bring a leader|controller combination. If this was me, I'd bring in another striker. Elementalist, maybe. AoE striker Wizard, perhaps. Barbarian could be good, as that covers some skills your party won't have (Athletics, Endurance) and lets you bring the pain.

I saw that you prefer casters ... so I'm not quite sure what to tell you. A Wizard could work. Just focus on doing damage versus control. Call yourself a cleric if you like, but I think you would drag down combats if you hybrided as one. This group has enough healing, you don't need more leaders. You need more damage. Egads, seriously, more damage. Or another defender. But you mentioned wizard and that could work.

Just remember: in 4e it is incredibly easy to refluff everything. Heck, take the cleric multiclass, pick up a holy symbol and use that as your implement for all your wizard spells. That's right: cast your fireballs through your holy symbol of (god of magic). It's legal and it fits your theme.

Also totally awesome: your Swordmage will have a pimping good Reflex defense. He'll pull the monsters in and you drop fireballs on his face that you summoned by calling upon the god of magic and channeled them through your holy symbol dedicated to the god of magic. You miss him but you hit the enemies. Win/win.

[Reluctance]

I feel bad for whoever plays the SM. He goes in thinking he has a proper gish, and plays as a defender who ignores their mark mechanic. I've seen it often enough, and it always deserves a shake of the head.


Plus, I'm not a big fan of playing melee characters; I find them boring compared to the concept of playing a spellcaster. Thank you for the suggestion though. =)

Play your original idea, then. 4e is a completely different game from 3.5, with only a handful of names and tropes tying the two of them together. I'm starting to think you need to see how different the games are firsthand before you'll believe us forumites.

[Tegu8788]

4E doesn't have noncombatant characters. The leaders do damage in the same turn they heal. Unless the characters are the most damage focused of their builds, you do need some more damage. The holy symbol blaster wizard sounds perfect for what you described. Just a reminder, in 4E, everyone has multiple powers to select from, so melee characters get the same number of power choices your casters get. I don't know if it would fit your concept, but look at the avenger. It's the divine striker, think old paladin smiting meets ninja. He will do awesome damage and your warlord will love you. You can then MC into an arcane class, or just pretend your divine powers are arcane.

[Dimers]

A wizard|cleric build that advances Wis and Int is viable enough -- not optimized, your powers won't work as often in combat (they'll connect about 80% as frequently as your friends' do), but you said you're okay with that. But a sorcerer|cleric with Cha and Wis would have poor enough defenses that you'd spend much of the game unconscious and therefore unable to play. You'd have a bad score in every defense except Will, and even that wouldn't be better than any other character's.

I won't be able to access DDI or books for most of a day, but I'd be happy to point out some decent feat, background, theme and power selections once I can.

[WickerNipple]

(they'll connect about 80% as frequently as your friends' do)

Where did you come up with 80%?

This character would start with 18s in both Wis and Int and increase it every time. It has the same accuracy feat options as every other character. It's very rare for Hybrids to be able to afford a 20 in an attack stat, but that's hardly expected from most characters and even then the difference would be 5%.

[Sol]

He may have been thinking about the stat array the OP used in the OP. the math is wrong even then, but just hitting 18s in your primary stats at 11 is pretty rough.

Both clerics and wizards can relatively comfortable ignore their default secondary stats, so this could work out okay. But I'm still not sold on it being a better idea than refluffing something, and the party makeup as-is really doesn't need any more healing, and could really use some more striking.

An elementalist could easily be flavored as a priest of Amaunator/Pelor, or a devotee of Kossuth, or Haramathur, or Melora, or Kord, and would bring a tremendously powerful RBA for the warlord to swing with as well.

An invoker needs no reflavoring to approximate his character image, and also works fantastically with divine oracle (or morninglord). A warlock could be reflavored as a particularly devout cultist of whichever diety, his pact made with his God and his curse being damning the souls of those standing against the Lord.

Just because this particular hybrid is one of the dozen or so that can (if you plan ahead and take all of the right powers, all of the right feats, and then play it correctly) work well isn't enough reason to recommend that he try it as someone new to 4e and in a party that doesn't really need any more healing or controlling.

[Matticussama]

I'm actually not familiar with the Invoker class. Since you said that it wouldn't require reflavoring, what sort of role does an Invoker provide for the party? I like the idea of trying to make the Cleric/Wizard work, but I am also willing to consider alternatives that the Playground suggests if it can keep true to my original character vision. It doesn't matter exactly how I get to the end feel, so long as that feel is there.

[Tegu8788]

The invoker is the divine controller. Essentially a wizard that uses divine power instead of arcane power.

[Matticussama]

Interesting. I don't have 4th ed PHB2, so I'll have to wait until I can go to my DM's house to take a look at the class. However, if the Invoker is already using powers similar to those of a Wizard, I'll definitely take a careful look at the class and consider using the multi-class options to give me the Mystic Theurge roleplay feel since it sounds like it might be easier to play effectively than the hybrid.

[allonym]

You could always hybrid cleric and invoker - it's one of the best-suited hybrid combinations.

If you do make an invoker, hybrid or otherwise, you might want to consider a preservation invoker - they use intelligence as their secondary stat - and the power of arcana feat, for that arcane flavour and a pretty good benefit, especially if you powerswap or take an arcane paragon path.

[MeeposFire]

I think some of you are being way to hard on a cleric/wizard hybrid...

However I do think that invoker would be a great choice. Great control and can get good damage over an area if you like.

[Kurald Galain]

Deva Wiz|Cleric + Orb + Divine Oracle is a staple of hybrids that work,
No, it's a staple of multiclasses that work. An orb wizard with divine oracle has no business using cleric spells.

[Tegu8788]

If you really wanted to hybrid up an arcane divine controller and you aren't too concerned with healing, then a Wizard|Invoker meshes well. But if it's your first time, try out a straight class or multiclass before hybrid, especially if you don't have access to the character builder.

[Matticussama]

Most 3.5 character builders that I tried were crap, so I became somewhat adverse to them. Are there good 4th edition character builders that you'd suggest?

[Tegu8788]

The official one is really good I'm told. I've got a hybrid multiclass and trust me, without the builder whenever I level him up, the sheer number of options can be overwhelming.

[WickerNipple]

No, it's a staple of multiclasses that work. An orb wizard with divine oracle has no business using cleric spells.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Wizard gives up practically nothing by choosing Hybrid. He will have to replace a few arcane spells with divine ones, so he will not be a pure controller 100% of the time... but he doesn't want to be.

[allonym]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Wizard gives up practically nothing by choosing Hybrid. He will have to replace a few arcane spells with divine ones, so he will not be a pure controller 100% of the time... but he doesn't want to be.

Controllers in general are among the more hybrid-friendly classes, precisely because they don't rely on class features as much as most strikers or defenders, but among controllers, Wizard has more to lose than most. Its class features are pretty strong, especially considering that the essentials mage features are completely unavailable, and it has so many more powers than other classes that power choice will be tougher than most. In particular reference to a wizard|cleric, you also do not share a primary stat, and intelligence does basically nothing for clerics, so you will at least need to go 16/16, restricting your race choice heavily if you want to remain effective, and have the riders on your cleric powers be pathetic, whereas a straight wizard or invoker can often afford to start with a pre-racial 18.

Having said that, Wizards can get benefits from most other stats with the exception of dexterity (which never does anything for them apart from initiative and needing a 13 for pre-requisites), so they at least have more options for their second class if they do hybrid, and cleric powers tend to have a controller bent to them - it's not like the combination is unworkable.

[Kurald Galain]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Wizard gives up practically nothing by choosing Hybrid.

The point is that wizard spells are so good that any wizard that is using non-wizard spells (particularly ones requiring a to-hit roll not on int) is Doing It Wrong.

[Mando Knight]

First, I'd like to say what everyone else said: There's only one way to make a bad character in 4e, and hybrid is it. Yes, it's that bad.
Well, there's also the Vampire, which is a Striker mostly in that it deals OK damage and doesn't fulfill any of the other roles.

The official one is really good I'm told. I've got a hybrid multiclass and trust me, without the builder whenever I level him up, the sheer number of options can be overwhelming.
The official character builder is the best character building tool I have ever seen. It requires a subscription to DDI, but considering the wealth of material the subscription provides, it's well worth it.

[Reverent-One]

Answer: You assist your swordmage buddy, he always makes the rolls that count. Why? Because success and failure is important.

So you will never be directly contributing your skills to the party.

OBJECTION!

This statement fails to take into account skill checks outside of the context of a skill challenge (using Arcana as an example, for knowledge checks and magic detecting, where the hybrid character is able to make checks and can succeed even if the swordmage may fail), as well as skills other than Arcana. Religion, for example, is an skill he could well be the best in in the party (can't say for sure without seeing the Avenger and Bard's stats). Dungoneering, same, only it's the Psion I'd have to see stats for to be sure.
[/pheonix wright]

That said, I do find the Charisma rather high, and you either started with less than a 16 in Wis, or started with a 16 in Wis and didn't boost it every time, neither of which I would suggest if you're Hybriding Cleric. And as has been said, you may want to look at the Invoker class.

[WickerNipple]

The point is that wizard spells are so good that any wizard that is using non-wizard spells (particularly ones requiring a to-hit roll not on int) is Doing It Wrong.

Heh. From that perspective I agree, but Sacred Flame + one cherry picked cleric enc/daily ain't gonna kill his character. Not by a long shot.

[INDYSTAR188]

I'm thinking about taking Initiate of the Faith strictly so that I can take the Divine Oracle PP. Thoughts? I'm using a Eladrin Orb Wizard. I will have a 20 Wis (started w/a 17) when I get there. Is this really sub-optimal? If I do that can I use the orb as the implement for the Divine Oracle powers?

[Reluctance]

Starting with an odd score is a bit, well, odd, but using a secondary stat to hit with a couple of your powers isn't the end of the world. Especially with the DO accuracy boost.

The issue isn't that wizards and clerics are horribly incompatible, though. The issue is that a 4e novice trying to make a complicated character that mixes 3.5 archetypes of "generic holy magic guy" and "generic everything else magic guy" is going to run into the same sort of problems a V:tR player would run into if they expected Spider Climb, Dominate, and Gaseous Form all right out the gate.

[Yakk]

Here are some ways to determine if you have screwed up your build.

1) Calculate your NORMALIZED attack bonus with your powers.

For each power, subtract your level from your attack bonus. For non-Weapon attacks, the result should be +3-5 or higher. For Weapon attacks, the result should be +5 to +7 or higher.

2) Calculate your NORMALIZED AC and other defences.

Subtract your level from your AC and Fort/Ref/Will. For AC, the result should be at least 12 for back-line characters, 14 for characters who plan to use powers with a range of 5 or less, 16 for characters who plan to enter melee range, and 18-20 for defenders.

Non-AC defences (NADs) that are normalized to 12 are acceptable, and hard to get without serious investment past low levels. A 10 makes you easy to hit, a 15 or higher makes you hard to hit against that defence. I've played defenders with a 9 normalized fortitude, and it was painful (fort attacks where often auto-hit -- I dealt with this by having powers that let me use other defences to block fort attacks).

3) Examine your damage on a hit. Assuming you are a character that makes 1 attack per round usually, and you are not a striker, and your accuracy is in line with the above numbers...

6 + level*2 is your target average damage on a hit to contribute meaningfully to killing things dead. If you are doing half of this, you won't meaningfully be contributing to killing things dead.

Strikers want to deal 10+level*3 as a baseline. If you aren't hitting that level of damage output, you won't be keeping encounters short and dropping monsters like your job description entails. :)

At-wills can do less than this, so long as your encounter powers bring the average up.

For area powers, you get a 25% discount on the damage you are expected to do. (I could get fiddly and say "bigger area means bigger discount", but 25% is enough for this crude metric)

Accuracy boosting classes, like Avengers, can make do with much lower damage expressions.

Some characters, like pacifist clerics, or strong-control wizards, or lazy warlords, can make do with dealing zero damage at all. But I wouldn't advise a player new to 4e to try to build one of these. :)

[Reverent-One]

3) Examine your damage on a hit. Assuming you are a character that makes 1 attack per round usually, and you are not a striker, and your accuracy is in line with the above numbers...

6 + level*2 is your target average damage on a hit to contribute meaningfully to killing things dead. If you are doing half of this, you won't meaningfully be contributing to killing things dead.

Strikers want to deal 10+level*3 as a baseline. If you aren't hitting that level of damage output, you won't be keeping encounters short and dropping monsters like your job description entails. :)

At-wills can do less than this, so long as your encounter powers bring the average up.

For area powers, you get a 25% discount on the damage you are expected to do. (I could get fiddly and say "bigger area means bigger discount", but 25% is enough for this crude metric)

Hmm, the damage expectations seems a bit high when you get to higher levels. Do you have any example breakdowns of characters (both striker and non if possible) of around level 15ish hitting that average damage?

[Yakk]

Striker is easy. Start with a Thief.

Thieves get an accuracy bonus from Backstab that has to be factored in.

Level 15 thief with 22+ dex, a +4 weapon, Nimble Blade, Backstabber, Rapier, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Light Blade Expertise, Armbands that grant +4 item bonus to damage on MBE, MP2 feat that lets you target Reflex and using Backstab against a target with Combat Advantage.

Accuracy: +7 (level)+6(dex)+2 (LBE)+3 (prof)+1(talent)+3 (CA&Nimble)+3(Backstab) = +25 to hit vs Reflex, or normalized +10.

Target normalized accuracy is around +3 -- your accuracy is simply ridiculous.

WF & TWF & LBE: +5
Dex: +6
Enhance & Item: +8
Dice: 4d8
Backstab: 2d6
Total: 44
Target: 10+45 = 55

But we have +7 accuracy over the target accuracy expression. And we have 3 feats left over. Instead of hitting 50-50, we are hitting 85% of the time -- so if we throw in the fact that we will hit 1.7 times for every "baseline" characters single hit, 44*1.7 = 74.8 at 50% accuracy.

My target for a one-attack striker is a "three round striker", capable of killing a target in 3 rounds. My target for a decent damaging non-striker is a "four round striker", capable of killing a target in 4 rounds. My "low damage" is an 8 round striker, capable of killing a target in 8 rounds.

8 round strikers are not meaningfully contributing to killing things dead.

4 rounders are. 3 rounders are doing their striker job.

---

A slayer charge build, with a +3 vanguard weapon, heroic horned helm, greatspear, surprising charge, +4 item bonus bracers, two handed weapon expertise, spear expertise, weapon focus, 22 strength/18 dex, impaling spear, using power attack and a way to get combat advantage in Berserker's Charge stance:

+6(str)+7(level)+3 (weapon)+3(prof)+2(expertise)+1(charge)+2 (CA)+1 talent=+27 vs Reflex. Also ridiculously good.

Damage: 3d10 [W], 1d8 Vanguard, 1d6 Helm, +3 enhance, +4 item, +2 focus, +2 THE, +2 SE, +6 str, +4 dex, +5 paragon slayer
= 46
Also under the 55 target, but accuracy is 9 whole points over the target of +18 vs Reflex.

Two Weapon Ranger Stormwarden
20 strength/22 dex, uses two +3 frost scimitars. Wintertouched Lasting Frost Weapon Focus Heavy Blade Expertise Scimitar Dance Deadly Hunter Prime Punisher Prime Quarry Called Shot

To hit: +2 (prof)+5(str)+7(level)+2(CA)+3(enhance)+2(prime)=+ 19 vs AC, normalized +4 vs AC. A tad under target.

Hit damage: 1d8+2 (WF)+5 (frost)+5 (called shot)+3 (enhance)
Miss damage: 6+5 (frost)
Quarry damage: 2d8

Miss damage is worth as much as hit damage (in general, esp if your accuracy is average).

So 70 damage, after including miss damage. Plus another 12 autodamage from paragon path (autodamage is twice as good as rolled damage), coming to 82 damage. Way over the 55 damage target for a single-swing average accuracy striker.

Now, ~20 of that comes from having applied cold vuln to the target on the previous attack. But even with that subtracted, we are over the target.

---

At paragon and epic levels, it takes effort to keep your damage expressions high enough to actually kill creatures fast enough that you don't fall asleep in the fight. At heroic, it happens automatically.

Essentials classes find it much easier to keep their damage up to snuff.

Note that the Essentials builds I did didn't use their paragon path. Paragon paths for strikers worth their salt are going to be putting out a striker feature's worth of damage (like the stormwarden ranger, which was getting 12 autodamage per round from her paragon path).

[Silma]

There is an interesting Wizard/Cleric build i once made that relied on auto-hit powers like magic missile. If you want I can make one with the CB and post it here.

[Tegu8788]

Please do post.

[Reverent-One]

And what about the non-strikers? Especially single target, single attack types.

[Silma]

Here it is. Note that this is NOT optimized, and that there are better options on most levels. It is simply a sample build of how this can be done.
The interesting part is the the only power that requires an attack roll is the cleric's Lance Of Faith at-will power. :smalltongue:
Also, I spent most of the feats in skill trainings and focus, so that he can be useful in skill challenges

Race: Elf
Class: Hybrid Wizard/Cleric
Hybrid Cleric Options: Healer's Lore
Deity: Corellon

PP: Azure Guard

Ability Scores (Base +Racial Bonus + Level 4 upgrade + Level 8 Upgrade + Level 11 Upgrade)
STR: 9 (8+0+0+0+1)
CON: 13 (12+0+0+0+1)
DEX: 13 (10+2+0+0+1)
INT: 21 (16+2+1+1+1)
WIS: 19 (16+0+1+1+1)
CHA: 13 (12+0+0+0+1)

Skills:
trained in Arcana, History, Insight, Religion

Powers:

Cantrips:
Suggestion
Prestidigitation
Light
Ghost Sound

Level 1 At will:
Lance of Faith (Cleric)
Magic Missile (Wizard) -> the auto-hit version

Level 1 Encounter:
Inevitable Doom (Cleric)

Level 1 Daily:
Wizard's Fury (Wizard)

Level 2 Utility:
Cure light Wounds (Cleric)

Level 3 Encounter:
Arcane Bolt (Wizard)

Level 5 Daily:
Weapon Of The Gods (Cleric)

Level 6 Utility:
Invisibility (Wizard)

Level 7 Encounter:
Phantom Foes (Wizard)

Level 9 Daily:
Wall Of Fire (Wizard)

Level 10 Utility:
Mass Cure Light Wounds (Cleric)


Feats:
Hybrid Talent->Channel Divinity->Turn Undead
Ritual Caster
Skill Training Insight
Skill Focus Arcana
Skill Focus Religion
Skill Focus History
Disciple of Lore

[Kurald Galain]

It is simply a sample build of how this can be done.
How what can be done, exactly?

Create a wizard/cleric hybrid? Sure, we already know that is possible by RAW. Create an effective wizard/cleric hybrid? I'm sorry but I have a hard time calling your build effective: most of its powers and feats are poor to mediocre at best.

What is the character trying to do? What does the wizard class contribute to this? And what does the cleric class contribute to this?


Also, I spent most of the feats in skill trainings and focus, so that he can be useful in skill challenges
An easier way of doing that is to take the background that lets you roll twice on Arcana checks, then take cantrips that let you use Arcana in the place of Diplomacy, Intimidate and Stealth.

[Silma]

How what can be done, exactly?

Create a wizard/cleric hybrid? Sure, we already know that is possible by RAW. Create an effective wizard/cleric hybrid? I'm sorry but I have a hard time calling your build effective: most of its powers and feats are poor to mediocre at best.

What is the character trying to do? What does the wizard class contribute to this? And what does the cleric class contribute to this?


An easier way of doing that is to take the background that lets you roll twice on Arcana checks, then take cantrips that let you use Arcana in the place of Diplomacy, Intimidate and Stealth.

I was referring to the build I mentioned earlier. A wizard/cleric build that never has to make attack rolls.

There is an interesting Wizard/Cleric build i once made that relied on auto-hit powers like magic missile. If you want I can make one with the CB and post it here.
What i also said before is that this is not an optimized build. But the creator of this thread mentioned that all the basic roles are covered, so he has the space to be a little suboptimal.

And the wizard is necessary for this build because there aren't enough powers on the cleric alone to go with the no-attack-roll-premise.
And on top of that, it simply adds to the flavor.

As for the background, yeah he can certainly use it. I didn't mention it, cuz I'm generally against such powerful backgrounds. I prefer the simple +2 to one skill.

[Yakk]

And what about the non-strikers? Especially single target, single attack types.
Well, take the slayer build. Remove slayer damage feature and power attack. You now have a weaponmaster fighter that surpasses the damage target, doesn't use all of their feats, and doesn't use a paragon path to boost damage. And has encounter powers for a boost.

Arcane class. Target damage: 36 per hit. 25% discount for area attack = 27 target damage.

Tiefling Wizard using a fire+cold power. Say, scorching burst (arcane admixture: cold)(Feat)

+3 feat(Feat), +3 superior implement(Feat), +7 (main and off-hand implement)(Feat), +6 stat, +3 destructive wizardry(feat) = 1d6+22 damage
On second hit: +2 power(Feat), +5 vuln(Feat) = 1d6+29 damage.

Expand spell (feat) for -2 damage and boost your attack to a 5x5 area optionally.

Your average damage per hit is now 32.5, 20% over the damage target I listed. So even if you only presume you get your 2nd hit bonus on half of your attacks, you are still over the limit.

Expertise (feat)+2, +6 int, +4 implement, +7 level = +19 to hit vs NAD, or +4 normalized, so acceptable accuracy. And for a (feat) you can get easy combat advantage. (note that this build uses Arcane Fire, not Lasting Frost -- Arcane Fire lets you apply Vuln(5) cold to your next attack on every target you hit).

I'm guessing you'll want a non-charging, single-target, single-tap, non-striker build next?

Here is a Paladin MC Bard build that I googled:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/21970225/PEACH__Radiant_Chaladin_DPS_Build?num=10&pg=1
I don't see any obvious multiattack or charge dependency. It does use a swordmage area effect power, but little in the build requires it be an area effect power to work. And it does well over the striker damage I listed above on a hit. (it also has some nasty kickbacks, but those aren't needed for this analysis)

Now this is a charop build, but it isn't hard to imagine taking only part of the layers of cheese they put on the build and generate a character good at killing things dead with a single blow, and not a single dollop of striker in them.

[Reverent-One]

I don't doubt that you can, I just don't think that defining baseline damage by characters focusing on doing damage is neccessarily a good idea. Especially using characters that are taking some of the top optimization approaches to doing damage (charge and vulnerability stacking).

[Yakk]

I defined it based on being able to actually drop enemies, based off of enemy HP.

To meaningfully contribute to dropping enemies, I presumed "killing an even level enemy in 4 rounds on average" as the standard. (Note that this is inline with a striker who does little optimization)

Characters who are dealing half that damage require 8 rounds to drop a creature. And at that level of damage output, you are not contributing significantly to making creatures dead, unless your group is expecting 10+ round combats to be common.

Now, there are many builds that don't contribute meaningfully to making creatures dead that are useful.

Groups that don't have a non-trivial number of party members capable of killing stuff dead will run into problems in paragon tier with extremely long combats.

(As an aside, this is one of the reasons why Lazy (or half-lazy) Warlords are awesome leaders. For little cost, they can leverage a Striker's investment into killing stuff dead, and invest the rest of their resources for utility and the like.)

[Reverent-One]

I think my main disagreement comes from a definitional issue. I would say a character that does not meaningfully contribute damage could just use Aid Another and have the battle end up about the same. Even if someone is doing damage that on it's own would take 8 rounds to kill the enemy, they'll still save one of the heavy hitters a turn every couple rounds, which is something. I would hope they're more seriously contributing in some other aspect, of course, but I still wouldn't call the damage meaningless. But that's just me.

And I do agree any party does need some real heavy hitters that do damage like you suggest.

[Yakk]

Aid another contributes ~20% of an allies damage output per round (or 10% of their hit damage as a DPR contribution). Barring a hard to hit target and an ally using a crazy-ass daily power with a crappy miss effect, you'd be better off just doing an anemic damage swing.

You actually need multiple heavy hitters to keep the length of combat to something reasonable.

Using "Striker", "Contributor" and "Anemic" for my 3 above thresholds, we get:
1 Striker, 4 Anemic against 5 even level monsters:
5 / (3/16 + 4*1/16) =~ 11.4 round combat
2 Striker, 3 Anemic against 5 even level monsters:
5 / (6/16 + 3/16) =~ 8.9 round combat
2 Striker, 2 Contributor, 1 Anemic against 5 even level monsters:
5/( 6/16 + 4/16 + 1/16 ) =~ 7.3 round combat
1 Striker+50%, 1 Striker, 3 Contributor:
5/( 4.5/16 + 3/16 + 6/16 ) =~ 5.9 round combat

Now, at level 1, short combats are easy to arrange. Your character default optimization level is sufficient.

By level 15, you need to do work.

While you might disagree with the level of optimization I described, you'll note that the "real" charop build ends up doing something like 3x times the level of damage output I said was required to meaningfully contribute to killing monsters.

Yes, you'll need to use reasonably powerful technique to keep your damage up to the level where monsters actually die at a reasonable pace. But the alternative is combats that take 10 rounds, and seriously drag on.

[Reverent-One]

:smallconfused: Unless I'm mistaken, your "Contributors" are doing damage equal to killing an even level enemy in 8 rounds on average (2/16 is 1/8 after all), which is previously not what you considered to be contributing. Even your strikers aren't being calculated as doing enough damage to kill an even level enemy in 4 rounds. Am I misreading your math there? If not, then we're not in disagreement, since I would also consider a character only doing enough damage to kill an enemy in 16 rounds (as your "Anemic" character by my reading) to not be doing meaningful damage.

[Kurald Galain]

Aid another contributes ~20% of an allies damage output per round (or 10% of their hit damage as a DPR contribution). Barring a hard to hit target and an ally using a crazy-ass daily power with a crappy miss effect, you'd be better off just doing an anemic damage swing.
Oh yes. Aid Another is an awfully bad tactic, even worse than taking your Second Wind (except for dwarves and wardens, of course).

I do notice that in 4E, the difference between a poorly built character and a well built character is huge (except at very low levels).

[MeeposFire]

Oh yes. Aid Another is an awfully bad tactic, even worse than taking your Second Wind (except for dwarves and wardens, of course).

I do notice that in 4E, the difference between a poorly built character and a well built character is huge (except at very low levels).

You say that as if that is a new thing in a game full of choices.

[Kurald Galain]

You say that as if that is a new thing in a game full of choices.

It's not new, but it suggests that 4E's game balance only works in theory, and becomes problematic in practice. Indeed, the issue of some characters completely upstaging others within the same group (a common complaint about 3E) is prevalent in most paragon- or epic-tier 4E games I've played.

[Yakk]

:smallconfused: Unless I'm mistaken, your "Contributors" are doing damage equal to killing an even level enemy in 8 rounds on average (2/16 is 1/8 after all),
Yes. Sorry if I misspoke when I halved those numbers.

I was dealing enough damage to drop a monster with 2.7 to 4 hits as "striker" or "contributor" respectively, while 8 was "anemic". Presuming 50% accuracy, this works out to 5.3 and 8 rounds to drop an even level monster (ignoring crits, which, barring crit-fishing, aren't reliable enough to impact the expected fight length nearly as much as average hit damage does).

The fact that in 4e it takes work to pass the anemic level of damage output by paragon tier is a design problem, in my mind. You do need to use charop techniques like charge, multi-tap or vulnerability exploitation mechanics for a non-striker to deal damage sufficient to actually drop enemies in a reasonable number of rounds.

The baseline striker DPR is usually a 4-round striker. If they are 50% accurate, and swing once-per-round, they need a huge amount of damage per hit.

...

Basically, in 4e too much character power drifts away from [W] dice and powers towards feat and item selection. This is a side effect of the fact that each feat gives you a scaling "oomph" of power (feat power scales linearly, in terms of DPR, with level, for each feat), and you get a scaling number of feats. Item contribution also scales roughly linearly, and the sum total of the levels of your items grows roughly quadratically with level (that guess could be wrong, with exponential item prices, but I find when I build heroic tier characters I have ~4 items, paragon I have ~6 that contribute to a non-trivial degree (and the rest of the slots filled with random cheap items), and epic characters fill every item with items that contribute to the character's primary effectiveness -- because a "cheap" level 1-3 item for a paragon tier character is going to be the only one I can pick up, while a "cheap" level 1-13 item is going to add +12 damage to my crit damage for my epic tier character).

Meanwhile, each power upgrade is only one "dollop" of additional power. You get an extra [W] or stat to damage over the previous one. Or, at low levels, the encounter powers that don't replace existing ones deal an extra [W] or so above an at will.

So, linear power choice impact, quadratic feat and item choice impact, leads to the current charop situation -- where at low levels, your low number of choices leads to low variance in character power, while at medium-high levels the large number of choices (each of roughly equivalent impact) means that the variance in character power skyrockets.

And the place where this variance exists is not in powers, which seem (at a casual glance) to be highly important, but rather in feats and item choices. Which is why every one of my above paragon-tier builds had huge bonuses to the damage that had little to do with what power they where using. And one of the reasons why non-strikers can rival strikers at dealing damage.

But this is getting off topic into game design analysis of 4e.

The main point is that it takes some charop at paragon tier levels to keep monsters dead in a relatively short number of turns -- and even more charop to prevent those turns from dragging on (multiple attack and area powers reduce turns better than they reduce the time to finish a turn, because they both involves many, many evaluations of your die roll).

It's not new, but it suggests that 4E's game balance only works in theory, and becomes problematic in practice. Indeed, the issue of some characters completely upstaging others within the same group (a common complaint about 3E) is prevalent in most paragon- or epic-tier 4E games I've played.
Yes, there are charop builds that generate a wizard with a multiple encounter use 6x6 area encounter-long dominate (it even works on solos for at least a few rounds), and who win initiative reliably.

Similar extreme 3e charop is the domain of pun-pun, where a level 1 character becomes an overdeity in a matter of rounds. :)

And, unlike 3e, most classes in 4e can engage in extreme charop.

[Reverent-One]

Yes. Sorry if I misspoke when I halved those numbers.

I was dealing enough damage to drop a monster with 2.7 to 4 hits as "striker" or "contributor" respectively, while 8 was "anemic". Presuming 50% accuracy, this works out to 5.3 and 8 rounds to drop an even level monster (ignoring crits, which, barring crit-fishing, aren't reliable enough to impact the expected fight length nearly as much as average hit damage does).

You know, I've looked through some old battles to check out the numbers, and I see that it's that 50% accuracy assumption that causing my issue. It seems that I rarely see characters end up doing nothing for half of their turns. If these numbers (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-discussion/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html) are still accurate avarages, a character that barely meets your normalized attack bonus for AC will have a 60% accuracy, 70% on the high end. And I'd bet most people wouldn't count things like CA, buffs granted by leader powers, or debuffs on the enemies defenses in calculating their normalized attack bonus. I think that with your suggested baseline attack bonus', you should be assuming ~70% accuracy. So in the end, I agree with the idea of a character should drop an even level monster in 5.3(striker)/8 rounds(contributor) rounds, just that I think many characters don't have to hit 10+lvl*3/6+lvl*2 per round they hit in order to make that goal.


The fact that in 4e it takes work to pass the anemic level of damage output by paragon tier is a design problem, in my mind. You do need to use charop techniques like charge, multi-tap or vulnerability exploitation mechanics for a non-striker to deal damage sufficient to actually drop enemies in a reasonable number of rounds.

I don't know about that, this level 16 swordmage (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=384240) has basically no work done to increase damage, started with a 16 in int, no damage boosting feats, nothing item-wise beyond the +4 enhancement bonus. His PP does let him treat weapon damage dice results of 1 or 2 as 3 instead, but that's it. Yet in the one combat I've had with him so far, he averaged 23.5 points of damage per round, more than the 19 points per round needed to take out an even level creature in 8 rounds. I did have higher than average attack rolls (average roll of 13.1), but that's not enough to reduce it by too much. Now, it's a bad sample size, true, but given that I used no daily attack powers or action points in that combat, nor does the average damage include the extra crit damage I got, it shouldn't be an horribly unrepresentative result.