About Psionics

[willpell]

I'm both fascinated and frustrated by the psionics in D&D, and would like to start a thread to crowdsource for more information on their history, nature and purpose. Here are some of the questions that I have on the top of my head.

1. Xephs and Soulknifes. What the heck is their deal? I just don't get where the idea of mind blades came from in the first place, it seems really weird and random to me, and then the xephs seem like a completely flavorless race thrown into the EPH for no other reason than so that something would favor soulknife. Am I missing some kind of backstory that explains what the point of these guys is?

2. The Erudite. Why exactly is it described as a "variant psion", when it is no more like a psion than a wizard is like a sorcerer? Why does he have to pay XP to learn powers, when a wizard doesn't pay XP to scribe new spells in a spellbook? And what is the deal with the rule about losing that ability if he gains levels in another psionic class equal to his erudite level? Wizards certainly don't have to deal with any such horsehockey when they multiclass at level 2. I get that it might be possible to do some broken cheese with classes that get fewer powers and more power points, but he'll still have his entire Erudite repertoire tied to his Erudite level, with a very small number of unique powers per day, so I don't see much danger in simply ignoring this rule. There was a guy in my campaign who wanted to play a Wizard/Erudite/Cerebremancer, and didn't want his Erudite abilities to turn off as soon as he hit TCL 10.

3. This is a bit more of a rant so feel free to ignore, and of course the answer is "because the author said so", but I still wanna vent. If the Githyanki were a race of people who had been enslaved by Mind Flayers, gained comparable psionic powers, broke free and are now dedicated to both hunting the Mind Flayers and avoiding recapture by them, why the bloody hell do they hang out in the Astral Plane all the time, where the Mind Flayers routinely go? I can see them sending raiding parties to bushwhack the illithids while they're searching the Astral for something or another, but shouldn't their central stronghold, where they keep their ruling queen and their families and all their greatest arcane secrets, be somewhere as far away from the mind flayers as they can possibly get? It's too bad about that Evil alignment, hey Chuckie; if you coulda been Good you could just go hang out in Elysia forever, and not only would the Mind Flayers have to take a penalty to all their rolls if they followed you, but they might get entrapped by the plane and turn Good too. (Yes obviously all this misses the point of them being a race of psychopaths who know nothing but their endless war, I'm just saying turning into same was kind of a dumb move on their part from a strictly pragmatic perspective.)

EDIT - Thought of another one.
4. Out of the various Psicrystal personalities, they couldn't very well have hit all the skills or even all the class skills of psions (what with every Discipline giving extra ones), but why on earth did they only hit two out of the three saves? It feels really weird that you can pad one of a Psion's bad saves but not the other one; did they feel it was necessary for game balance that a psion not be able to improve his Reflex save with a psicrystal?

[Urpriest]

3. Mind Flayers don't typically hang out in the Astral Plane, they hang out in the Underdark. It's Githyanki who hang out in the Astral Plane, and a Mind Flayer wandering in there is on Githyanki tuft.

[Squark]

1. Xephs and Soulknifes. What the heck is their deal? I just don't get where the idea of mind blades came from in the first place, it seems really weird and random to me, and then the xephs seem like a completely flavorless race thrown into the EPH for no other reason than so that something would favor soulknife. Am I missing some kind of backstory that explains what the point of these guys is?
Honestly, I don't know why the xeph was added. The original Soulknife was actually a gish PrC in the original Psionics Handbook, though. Presumably the purpose of Xephs was to give a default race for soulknifes.


2. The Erudite. Why does he have to pay XP to learn powers, when a wizard doesn't pay XP to scribe new spells in a spellbook?You'll notice that powers which might have gold costs if they were spells have smaller XP costs instead. Basically, because the original design was to remove any reliance on materials from psionic classes, so XP costs replaced material components. The trend has just sort of... stuck. I'm not a huge fan (I tend to be very possessive of my XP), but there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems.



EDIT - Thought of another one.
4. Out of the various Psicrystal personalities, they couldn't very well have hit all the skills or even all the class skills of psions (what with every Discipline giving extra ones), but why on earth did they only hit two out of the three saves? It feels really weird that you can pad one of a Psion's bad saves but not the other one; did they feel it was necessary for game balance that a psion not be able to improve his Reflex save with a psicrystal?

Honestly, i probably got cut for space.

[Essence_of_War]

1. Xephs and Soulknifes. What the heck is their deal? I just don't get where the idea of mind blades came from in the first place, it seems really weird and random to me, and then the xephs seem like a completely flavorless race thrown into the EPH for no other reason than so that something would favor soulknife. Am I missing some kind of backstory that explains what the point of these guys is?


Awwww no love for the Xeph or the Soulknife??? :smalltongue:

I actually think the Xeph's are pretty cool...as long as you fix their racial ability so that it doesn't take a standard action to activate! Curse you default conditions for supernatural abilities! The small, quick, agile race is a frequent trope in fantasy, and Xeph's play to that pretty well. They made a point to write TWF into the soulknife, and since TWF has a dex hurdle the Xeph's racial dex boost makes them a logical choice. Also, the Soulknife has some extra sources of damage other than strength which plays well with a race that has a str penalty. We know with hindsight that the soulknife is actually pretty mechanically weak, but I think that was the designer/developer's thinking.

Despite being mechanically weak, I think it's pretty evocative and quite flavorful. The 3.5 designers/developers vastly overrated the power of having a customizeable weapon instead of real class features. But Pathfinder dialed the power level and customizability up, and I think they managed to make it useful and flavorful.

[sonofzeal]

1. Xephs and Soulknifes.
The Jedi influence in Soulknives is obvious. Jedi match Psi flavour better than Arcane or Divine already - there's a lot about meditation and internal discipline and unlocking the powers within, not to mention that Jedi are supposedly able to see a half-second ahead which is what gives them such a huge combat advantage over non-Jedi. I think Soulknives were intended to be pseudo-Jedi without being obvious enough to cause copyright issues.


2. The Erudite.
The Erudite... might be better off ignored entirely. It was poorly written from the get-go, even without the StP variant that busts everything wide open. The game doesn't need them, and I think they subtract more than they add.


3. Githyanki / Mind Flayers
As others have said, the seat of Mind Flayer power is the Underdark. Also, the Astral Plane is frigging big, probably comparable in size to the Material Plane. If the Prime Material has room for countries or even continents, then the Astral Plane likely has room for a large enough number of zones that the Gith-controlled space wouldn't even need to necessarily share a border with any particular enemy race.


4. Psicrystal personalities
Good news is, it's pretty easy to add your own if you can think of one. I don't think there's any balance reason. Maybe the list got truncated for length, or the designer wasn't having an imaginative day. It's not a big deal either way though, IMO. Dragon Mag might have more.

[Essence_of_War]

Good news is, it's pretty easy to add your own if you can think of one. I don't think there's any balance reason. Maybe the list got truncated for length, or the designer wasn't having an imaginative day. It's not a big deal either way though, IMO. Dragon Mag might have more.

This!

It was a pretty irritating oversight on the part of the dev team, but my group has a pretty laid back "if you can think of a personality that isn't listed, and fits with the skill/save boost mechanically, go for it" and we haven't had any problems.

[shadow_archmagi]

If the Githyanki were a race of people who had been enslaved by Mind Flayers, gained comparable psionic powers, broke free and are now dedicated to both hunting the Mind Flayers and avoiding recapture by them, why the bloody hell do they hang out in the Astral Plane all the time, where the Mind Flayers routinely go?

Because they're a huge evil empire. They *won* the war; the mind flayers are just millions of secretive evil cabals now, rather than a true empire. That's like asking "Why do all the Americans just hang out in the United States, where Britain could easily find them?" They don't really need to hide from the Mind Flayers at this point.

Also, I'm pretty reason that the Astral Plane is infinite?

[navar100]

Because they're a huge evil empire. They *won* the war; the mind flayers are just millions of secretive evil cabals now, rather than a true empire. That's like asking "Why do all the Americans just hang out in the United States, where Britain could easily find them?"

Also, I'm pretty reason that the Astral Plane is infinite?

Hey! Don't you talk about our mum like that!
:smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

Because they're a huge evil empire. They *won* the war; the mind flayers are just millions of secretive evil cabals now, rather than a true empire. That's like asking "Why do all the Americans just hang out in the United States, where Britain could easily find them?"
Er, that's not exactly how the Revolutionary War went, but we might want to avoid real-world politics as I have a feeling any further conversation on that topic would end poorly.

But yes. Gith were victorious, or at least victorious enough, that mindflayers don't seem to be making a top priority of stomping them out. Unless you want to do it that way for your campaign, in which case, hey, don't Flayers have Plane Shift?

[shadow_archmagi]

Er, that's not exactly how the Revolutionary War went, but we might want to avoid real-world politics as I have a feeling any further conversation on that topic would end poorly.


Shush you history major. I realize it isn't a perfect metaphor but it's close enough for what it's for.

[sonofzeal]

Shush you history major. I realize it isn't a perfect metaphor but it's close enough for what it's for.
Math major, actually; history's just an interest.

Also, not really "close enough". If the Mindflayers had been distracted by the potential involvement of a 3rd party, that might have been closer. Of course, then it leaves the question of what happens to the Gith if that 3rd party leaves the scene, which makes it fail for this argument.

Best just to avoid the real-world parallels entirely.

[willpell]

Presumably the purpose of Xephs was to give a default race for soulknifes.

Exactly what I suspected, and utter and complete suck. It would be like if instead of Elves they had made up "Willtanians" whose entire existence revolves around how good they are at being wizards, with no real personality or culture beyond that fact.


The Jedi influence in Soulknives is obvious.

I didn't see it. A lightsaber is an actual weapon, albeit one the Jedi builds by hand for himself. I agree that psionics is pretty decent for representing Jedi powers, but a soulknife doesn't actually get any powers. Seems to me as though the closest thing to a Jedi (without using PrCs, as I know very little about them) would be a Divine Mind - starts out with no powers as just a warrior, but eventually unlocks a few weak psychic abilities which supplement his combat ability.


The Erudite... might be better off ignored entirely. It was poorly written from the get-go, even without the StP variant that busts everything wide open.

I'm not familiar with that variant. I kind of like the concept behind the erudite, I'm just trying to get a grip on the mechanics.


As others have said, the seat of Mind Flayer power is the Underdark. Also, the Astral Plane is frigging big, probably comparable in size to the Material Plane.

Well I would hope that any plane worthy of the name would be of such size. The idea that Heaven is a single mountain and Hell is one big cavern small enough to see the far wall is patently absurd, if every single person who has ever died ends up in one of this handful of Outer Planes. (Supposedly they eventually fade away, but still, the total population of any one OP ought to be comparable to the total number of people alive on the Prime, given that the OP's population comes from only one alignment but can linger for far longer than a mortal lifetime, potentially since the dawn of time if the soul is strong-willed enough.


Maybe the list got truncated for length, or the designer wasn't having an imaginative day.

By just one line? Some savings. They could have made a lot more room by not repeating the entire "a blahblah manifests powers which are activated by spending power points, and may manifest a level 9 power once or a level 1 power nine times for the same price" spiel three times for all three of the manifester classes (and then three more times in CPsi, with absolutely nothing having changed).


Also, not really "close enough". If the Mindflayers had been distracted by the potential involvement of a 3rd party, that might have been closer.

Wouldn't that be the Githzerai?

[sonofzeal]

I didn't see it. A lightsaber is an actual weapon, albeit one the Jedi builds by hand for himself.
Glowing blade of pure energy created through focusing ones internal energies, possibly through a crystal of some kind? Sounds pretty in-line to me. Lightsabers do have a mechanical element, but they're still supposed to be largely force-powered from what I'm aware of.


By just one line? Some savings.
There's a lot of skills that aren't represented, and other things as well. Look at all the variant familiars out there, like Hummingbirds for Int.


Wouldn't that be the Githzerai?
I'm pretty sure both Gith races were united at that point.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wouldn't that be the Githzerai?

Funny enough, Illithids are one of the only reasons that the two gith races reconcile (at least on a temporary basis).

And guys, didn't you know? the Mind Flayers WON the war. It just took them so long, it was the end of time, so they had to send themselves back in time and start all over again, in an infinite time loop.

(Yes, that's part of the actual fluff somewhere. Source?)

[Steward]

In Lords of Madness, it is revealed that the mind flayers are actually from the distant future, and they returned to the past (well, they returned for the first time, since they are not from the "current" time period) to avoid some kind of disaster that nearly wiped out their civilization. It was after they had returned to the past (that is, the campaign setting's present) that they enslaved the githyanki/githzerai for the first time (well, their ancestors). The subsequent gith rebellion and the splitting off happened after that point. (That is, it happened before the mind flayers were in the future... well, after the point at which they arrived from the future into the past...)

Eh... you get what I mean?

The githyanki are 'currently' (!?!) the winners of the gith vs. mind flayer struggle, and the mind flayers are not an immediate threat to their entire civilization.

EDIT:

Ugh, that barely makes any sense. Let's try this.

Basically, if you want, you can think of the story as taking place over seven years, with year 1 being the beginning of time and year 7 being the end of the world:

Year 1
Year 2 - origin of the gith ancestor race
Year 3 - mind flayers from the future arrive from year 7, enslave gith race
Year 4 - gith rebel against mind flayers, defeat them and drive them underground
Year 5 - origin of the mind flayer race
Year 6 - mind flayers take over the world
Year 7 - mind flayers destroy the world by accident, use magic to time travel back to year 3

If that makes sense? What's going to get awkward is that, in terms of the campaign setting, the mind flayers will originate as a species 2000 years after they were defeated by the githyanki and the githzerai and chased into the Underdark. The "old" mind flayers (the ones who traveled back in time) will remember how the "new" mind flayers will some day almost destroy the world, the accident that prompted them to come back in time in the first place.

Trippy, huh?

[shadow_archmagi]

Funny enough, Illithids are one of the only reasons that the two gith races reconcile (at least on a temporary basis).

And guys, didn't you know? the Mind Flayers WON the war. It just took them so long, it was the end of time, so they had to send themselves back in time and start all over again, in an infinite time loop.

(Yes, that's part of the actual fluff somewhere. Source?)

According to Lords of Madness, the Mind Flayers ruled the universe, but then an unknown horror (Cthulhu?) destroyed their empire, and in a last ditch effort, they exploded all their Elder Brains in a desperate attempt to create a magical shockwave so big it flung them back in time. Most of them landed in the distant past, where they captured human(probably) slaves and gradually bred them into the gith, who developed a psionic resistance over time. Since the Mind Flayers were reliant on being able to turn people into mind-slaves, the rebellion was successful and now the Mind Flayers bide their time until they can take over the universe and this time make their empire so great they can actually *win* the war against Cthulhu.

[eggs]

On 1.
Soulknife started as a 3.0 assassin-type prestige class. Its mind blade was actually a pretty cool and distinct idea, combining the auto-enhanced weapon with a spell-channeling-type mechanic to essentially sculpt its manifestations and psychic combat attacks into a physical weapon. It also had a unique ability to deal Con damage with psychic attacks. Between basically auto-stunning every nonpsionic character it fought, Con-blasting psionic characters and flaunting rogue-caliber sneak attack it was basically a powerhouse.

With 3.0, WotC dropped the psychic combat system, but still had this weird, nifty and popular class that was basically built around that system. Psychic Strike is apparently supposed to replicate the Psionic powers equivalent to those of an Assassin. and Knife to the Soul is basically a toned-down emulation of the 3.0 Soulknife's weapon-based psychic combat. Apparently 5d6 sneak attack was also valued at +4 in miscellaneous weapon enhancements, and the other 10 levels of powers were just written off.

Considering WotC's neglect in critically assessing versatility and non-damaging powers, these translations make a certain degree of sense, but the result was turning a powerful and versatile melee class into something very weak and very bland.



On 2.
Erudite is a Psion variant because that's how it was designed - a set of relatively minor tweaks on the Psion's powers known mechanic, rather than a new class with its own mechanical engine. That's also why it's such an absolutely terribly designed class - the psion's power mechanics don't really accommodate a prepared caster, so the parameters the designers used to try to make it make sense essentially reduce it to incomprehensible gibberish.

[Chronos]

Lightsabres are entirely technological devices. The Force might be necessary for the precise manipulations needed to make one, and it's certainly needed to use one to its full effectiveness (the precognitive reflexes for deflecting blaster bolts, for instance), but you can turn one on and make a glowy nearly-irresistable blade just fine without the Force. Heck, Han used Luke's lightsabre to slice open the Tauntaun, and Han's about the least Force-sensitive character in the series.

And it's problematic to compare sizes of planes in general, but all of the other planes in the D&D cosmology are embedded within the Astral Plane, so I think it's pretty safe to say that it's bigger than the Material Plane. Heck, it's probably even a higher dimensionality than the Material Plane-- I estimate that it's at least nine-dimensional. So, yeah, plenty of room to hide from anything you want.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't really know why the githyanki picked the astral plane. I suppose they just picked a plane out of a hat.

Note that the gith with the wisdom bonus picked the plane least likely to be barged in on (seriously, who goes to limbo?).

[Flickerdart]

I don't really know why the githyanki picked the astral plane. I suppose they just picked a plane out of a hat.

Note that the gith with the wisdom bonus picked the plane least likely to be barged in on (seriously, who goes to limbo?).
http://www.tu-pc.com/fondos/media/6005.jpg
This guy.

[willpell]

Lightsabers do have a mechanical element, but they're still supposed to be largely force-powered from what I'm aware of.

I thought that a lightsaber was a tube-shaped forcefield full of plasma? This was the explanation given in "Darths and Droids", but I'm pretty sure they didn't make it up; if it's not actually canon it's at least a very popular Fanon explanation.


There's a lot of skills that aren't represented, and other things as well. Look at all the variant familiars out there, like Hummingbirds for Int.

I had assumed that both familiars and psicrystals were specifically limited to giving only the bonuses they did, with no other options, very deliberately and for particular reasons probably related to game balance (such as someone thinking Psions would break the game if they could have a +8 reflex save at level 1 by taking two feats on top of an 18 Dexterity, but somehow figuring +8 Constitution or +10 Will was acceptible; not knowing every effect in the game that can call for a saving throw, I could believe that it made a difference somehow).



If that makes sense? What's going to get awkward is that, in terms of the campaign setting, the mind flayers will originate as a species 2000 years after they were defeated by the githyanki and the githzerai and chased into the Underdark. The "old" mind flayers (the ones who traveled back in time) will remember how the "new" mind flayers will some day almost destroy the world, the accident that prompted them to come back in time in the first place.

I remember seeing all this in LoM (which has the distinction of easily being one of my ten favorite D&D books, and high on that list), but it's fun to reconsider it. I find myself wanting to believe that the MFs (heh) could have saved the universe from destruction if they hadn't been near-exterminated by Good (and the Githwhatsi, who were presumably good once) some time in the past, causing their knowledge of the future to be lost so that they couldn't warn their descendants not to destroy the world. A bit on the Greek Tragedy side perhaps, and I don't usually go for that sort of thing, but here I'm digging it.


And it's problematic to compare sizes of planes in general, but all of the other planes in the D&D cosmology are embedded within the Astral Plane, so I think it's pretty safe to say that it's bigger than the Material Plane. Heck, it's probably even a higher dimensionality than the Material Plane-- I estimate that it's at least nine-dimensional. So, yeah, plenty of room to hide from anything you want.

Why do you need dimensions 5-8? People who port into the Astral Plane function just fine, rather than being all weirded out that their arm is in eight places at once, so that suggests to me that it is the same number of (mathematical) dimensions as any other plane, just existing in a different (technically imprecise term for an alternate reality) dimension. Whether it's "larger" is problematic since planes are supposed to mostly be infinite in size in the first place (canonically this is true of every outer plane, I just looked), at least in terms of the X and Y axes. So you can't really fit a plane within another plane, you can only say that every square inch of the "smaller" plane corresponds to more than one square inch of the "bigger" one, which is of dubious truth or relevance when the number of square inches in both sets is infinity.


I don't really know why the githyanki picked the astral plane. I suppose they just picked a plane out of a hat.

A hat full of rabbits?


Note that the gith with the wisdom bonus picked the plane least likely to be barged in on (seriously, who goes to limbo?).

Not to mention that Limbo is also infinite in size, and has no navigable landmarks other than maybe the Spawning Stone. Although I assumed that they at least partially picked Limbo because they wanted to be the ultimate masochist monks, so badass that they can survive in a plane that gives them -2 to all mental rolls.


On 1.
With 3.0, WotC dropped the psychic combat system, but still had this weird, nifty and popular class that was basically built around that system.
Considering WotC's neglect in critically assessing versatility and non-damaging powers, these translations make a certain degree of sense, but the result was turning a powerful and versatile melee class into something very weak and very bland.

Sounds like a tragic case of "Players love the ultra-powerful Soulknife, but players also love fair and balanced gameplay, so let's make the Soulknife fair compared to other classes and hope they weren't just loving it for being overpowered. Meanwhile we'll leave the wizard alone because we know people like playing that specifically because it's insanely powerful. So yeah, enjoy your fair and balanced gameplay, Soulknife lovers!"


Erudite is a Psion variant because that's how it was designed - a set of relatively minor tweaks on the Psion's powers known mechanic, rather than a new class with its own mechanical engine. That's also why it's such an absolutely terribly designed class - the psion's power mechanics don't really accommodate a prepared caster, so the parameters the designers used to try to make it make sense essentially reduce it to incomprehensible gibberish.

I didn't think it was terribly bad, a bit unclear perhaps and I still haven't quite picked through it, but the only thing that really stood out to me was that rule about losing their power-gaining if they multiclass wrong (which joins the general favored class rules in the pile of evidence that the multiclass rules are borked in general), and arguably the cost in XP but I could believe that was sort of fair just on the basis that you can't take their "spellbook" away. Other than that, the idea of a guy who knows more powers than a psion but has to be in a certain frame of mind to use them, and thus cuts off other options whenever he picks one, makes sense to me. Though I thought it was bizarre to give them Psicrystal Affinity for free and continue to charge regular Psions a feat for it.

[sonofzeal]

I thought that a lightsaber was a tube-shaped forcefield full of plasma? This was the explanation given in "Darths and Droids", but I'm pretty sure they didn't make it up; if it's not actually canon it's at least a very popular Fanon explanation.
It's canon, but so are a lot of things. :smalltongue: More precisely, early-model lightsabers at least outright required Force-sensitivity to use, and... I think "current era" ones require Force-sensitivity to at least make, and probably to use with any reliability. I know there's at least one type of Lightsaber knockoff, the "lightfoil", that's shorter and weaker but can be made and used by non-Force-sensitive folks.




I had assumed that both familiars and psicrystals were specifically limited to giving only the bonuses they did, with no other options, very deliberately and for particular reasons probably related to game balance (such as someone thinking Psions would break the game if they could have a +8 reflex save at level 1 by taking two feats on top of an 18 Dexterity, but somehow figuring +8 Constitution or +10 Will was acceptible; not knowing every effect in the game that can call for a saving throw, I could believe that it made a difference somehow).
Nope. Wizards can do it, with Weasel familiars. I think it's just an oversight, or they figured they'd expand the list later in DM like they did for familiars, and maybe never got around to it.

[Roguenewb]

I usually allow anything that's ever been printed as a familiar ability to be on a psicrystal, and it's never hurt me.

[Suddo]

Sounds like a tragic case of "Players love the ultra-powerful Soulknife, but players also love fair and balanced gameplay, so let's make the Soulknife fair compared to other classes and hope they weren't just loving it for being overpowered. Meanwhile we'll leave the wizard alone because we know people like playing that specifically because it's insanely powerful. So yeah, enjoy your fair and balanced gameplay, Soulknife lovers!"
Actually the old psionic mental combat rules are annoying and I wouldn't allow psions if I had to deal with it. I've heard many bad things about it and it seems rather hamfisted. I've heard it works good in a campaign where everyone is a psionic.




I didn't think it was terribly bad, a bit unclear perhaps and I still haven't quite picked through it, but the only thing that really stood out to me was that rule about losing their power-gaining if they multiclass wrong (which joins the general favored class rules in the pile of evidence that the multiclass rules are borked in general), and arguably the cost in XP but I could believe that was sort of fair just on the basis that you can't take their "spellbook" away. Other than that, the idea of a guy who knows more powers than a psion but has to be in a certain frame of mind to use them, and thus cuts off other options whenever he picks one, makes sense to me. Though I thought it was bizarre to give them Psicrystal Affinity for free and continue to charge regular Psions a feat for it.
Yeah Erudites are interesting. They are a varient class because Wizards are kind of a varient of Sorcs (or the other way around) that's why they are in the same place in the srd; But they are pretty poorly designed, the multiclass note is weird (but then a lot of things about multiclassing are weird) and, as stated above, the psionic system is a little weird for prepared spellcasting. Also the reason Wizards are Tier 1 is there versetility and if you were to get rid of that, by sticking a XP cost on gaining it, then you bring them back down some (most argue that Erudites without StP are Tier 2 material not Tier 1).

Oh and just so you can see the silliness of the Spell to Power ACF:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

[Darth Stabber]

Having actually played with the old psionic combat rules I can tell you that they are a terrible game of rock paper scissors. They contribute nothing of positive value,to the game. Their removal should have been heralded by 1000 angels. There are a few things I miss though: Soulknife as a PRC, inertial armor a feat, metamind actually putting you ahead in PP pool size, but all of these changes were well worth it to remove psionic combat.

[Flickerdart]

Having actually played with the old psionic combat rules I can tell you that they are a terrible game of rock paper scissors. They contribute nothing of positive value,to the game. Their removal should have been heralded by 1000 angels. There are a few things I miss though: Soulknife as a PRC, inertial armor a feat, metamind actually putting you ahead in PP pool size, but all of these changes were well worth it to remove psionic combat.
Metamind never put you ahead in PP. You had roughly the same amount of PP as a Psion, except your powers didn't progress so it was still worse in every way.

[Darth Stabber]

Metamind never put you ahead in PP. You had roughly the same amount of PP as a Psion, except your powers didn't progress so it was still worse in every way.

You are right, I am remiss, what was ever the point of it?

[eggs]

Metaminds got an awful lot of at-will powers known. They were all about Time Hop spam.

But 3.0 PrCing pretty much meant that a character was only ever going to use schism+psychic combat for offense, due to the inexistent power scaling.

[willpell]

Trying out the Erudite rules and I have a couple of questions.

1. Since the target of a powers-learning attempt must be willing, why does he get a Will save to prevent you from learning all the powers he knows? It makes sense when he's unconscious, but otherwise it seems like a psion who wants to help you is being made to save against his own ability to do so.

2.
Next, the erudite must make a Psicraft check (DC 15 power's level) for each power he is trying to learn to see if he understands that power. If the
selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists, he automatically fails this check.

Does this mean that powers which exist only as part of an Ardent mantle, such as Touch of Health, are impossible for Erudites to learn (outside of Expanded Knowledge)?

3. The Erudite must spend 8 hours in meditation to learn a power. If he's learning more than one power from the same source, does he spend 8 hours on each or 8 hours total?

4. If the Erudite fails his Psicraft check to make mental contact with someone in order to learn their powers, is there anything stopping him from just trying again the next turn? Can you take 10 or 20 on this check?

[Flickerdart]

1) Yes, precisely because of unconscious people. A willing and conscious target can opt to fail the save willingly.

2) Yes. As a variant psion, the erudite learns psion powers.

[Cor1]

2) Actually, Erudites CAN learn Ardent powers. From one mantle. They can select those like they do disciplines : replace Psicrystal by one Mantle (or Discipline).
That means they can learn every spell in the game but only psion/wilder powers, unless they exchange their Feat Battery / Pet Rock for a specialized list that generally sucks? Thanks, devs.

3) Seems it's 8 hrs for each power.

4) You can retry. The conditions are not specified. I searched in the Erudite class listing, in the Skills list, and in Power Stones description : there's nothing that says you can't retry, but a lot of other things say that you can't, in the table for the uses of Psicraft.

[Kuulvheysoon]

4) You can retry. The conditions are not specified. I searched in the Erudite class listing, in the Skills list, and in Power Stones description : there's nothing that says you can't retry, but a lot of other things say that you can't, in the table for the uses of Psicraft.

Maybe allow a retry after they've gained another rank in Psicraft (AKA gained a new level)?

[willpell]

2) Actually, Erudites CAN learn Ardent powers. From one mantle. They can select those like they do disciplines : replace Psicrystal by one Mantle (or Discipline).

Where is it stated they can do this?


That means they can learn every spell in the game but only psion/wilder powers, unless they exchange their Feat Battery / Pet Rock for a specialized list that generally sucks? Thanks, devs.

I think you may be confusing an ACF for the standard class. Spell to Power erudites are not the default (and are busted-ass crazy so most sensible DMs wouldn't allow them, unless they entire point of the game is to be high-op high-tier).


4) You can retry. The conditions are not specified. I searched in the Erudite class listing, in the Skills list, and in Power Stones description : there's nothing that says you can't retry, but a lot of other things say that you can't, in the table for the uses of Psicraft.

Okay, so assuming that you can retry indefinitely, I reiterate: can you take 20 or 10 (depending on available time)? With this, a pair of erudites can befriend each other and learn all of each other's powers, doubling the 2-per-level autolearn rate at a mild XP tax. On the other hand, they can't try to learn a power which confounds them until they gain a level, so having the same restriction apply to possible power sources (without even knowing whether they contain any powers you want) seems harsh.

[Cor1]

Maybe allow a retry after they've gained another rank in Psicraft (AKA gained a new level)?

No. You can retry if your GM lets you. There's no rule against it.

Also, even if THAT's a restriction you can bypass it in 10 minutes and 7 pp. A Psion who can't re-arrange his skill points at lvl 7 is built wrong.

(No, seriously : that power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) is "you're now a Wizard who preps spells by paying XP". Get it on you list as soon as you can manifest 4th lvl powers, you'll never regret it. Also, all the cool powers are 4th lvl - Divination, Metamorphosis, Dominate, Dim Door, Schism - and there is no "known powers at such level" list, so you can fit all of them on your list as long as they fit in your number of powers known.)

[Rubik]

I used a thought bottle, Psychic Reformation, StP Erudite, and Mantled Erudite (Magic Mantle), along with the Extra Spell feat, to learn every non-epic spell and power in the game.

You can also utilize Psychic Chirurgery, and Reality Revision/Wish. Not to mention Leadership or thrallherd. And don't forget to make power stones before you use PsyRef so you can learn them!

[willpell]

Does anyone have any idea why Complete Psionic nerfed Astral Construct? As far as I can see, the only purpose for the errata was to try and make the new Ectopic Forms special by saying you had to take the Ectopic Adept PrC if you ever wanted more than one Construct on the field. It seems really dumb and I see no reason not to just ignore it, even while honoring other errata in the same book.

[sonofzeal]

Does anyone have any idea why Complete Psionic nerfed Astral Construct? As far as I can see, the only purpose for the errata was to try and make the new Ectopic Forms special by saying you had to take the Ectopic Adept PrC if you ever wanted more than one Construct on the field. It seems really dumb and I see no reason not to just ignore it, even while honoring other errata in the same book.
I'm told (pure hearsay) that one of the lead developers there had always felt that SM/SNA should have a similar restriction, but either got overruled or came to the scene too late for them. Then, when he got his shot at Astral Contruct instead... well.

But without arcane/divine having similar limitations, and coming at us in the form of stealth errata, it just comes across as just awkward and petty.

[Cor1]

Where is it said in the Complete Psionic that you can't choose menu abilities for your astral construct? Page number plz.

I think the nerf is a myth originated by someone who figured that the simplified statblocks (page 120-121) were all you got for manifesting it. It says so right on the page : "The statistics blocks for standard constructs, minus their menu choices as shown on page 185 in Expanded Psionics Handbook, are given below for ease of reference."

It's nowhere stated, or even implied, that there is any nerf at all. You still get the menu abilities, and if you take an Ectopic Form feat, you get one bonus ability to the constructs that you manifest with that form.

[Answerer]

Where is it said in the Complete Psionic that you can't choose menu abilities for your astral construct? Page number plz.
Who claimed that you couldn't?

The nerf is that CPsi suddenly decides you can only have one Astral Construct at a time, which was not true previously and is not well balanced at all.


willpell: the real answer is because Complete Psionics is a terribly-written book, that you should probably avoid using. The Ardent, the Soulbow, and Practiced Manifester are almost literally the only things from that book worth having. Probably that save DC thing, too. All of the other general rules changes (read: stealth nerfs) are bad, the Lurk is bad, the Divine Mind is a travesty and a crime against psionics, most of the broken powers out there are in CPsi (Synchronicity for starters), the majority of the feats are just mind blade shapes, and several of the rest are imbalanced. The PrCs are poor, and the Anarchic Initiate in particular is terribly designed (let's see, it's the only manifesting PrC that's 10/10, and it gives the Psion a better version of the Wilder's only schtick. Greaaaat.).

[Cor1]

Wait, you could have more than one astral construct at a time? When? ... Oh yes, it's not limited in the power description. I never knew it was THAT good.

(But then, my Psion has two psicrystals who create their own, and so does its Fissioned Clone.)

[Psyren]

1) Fluffwise, Xephs are there to fill the "capricious trickster" archetype that Halfling players would be drawn to in a campaign otherwise built around psionic races. Of an adventuring group made up of the psionic races, they're the most likely to pull pranks on the others or employ lateral thinking (and thus, attract players who enjoy that sort of thingand want a racial justification.)

2) Erudites are psions simply because they have the same progression, are Int-based, and can learn lots of powers. That's really it. It's hard to be the team's utility caster with a limited repertoire, and both Psions and Erudites fill that role equally well. As far as the XP thing, 3.5 psionics typically use XP costs in lieu of gold to represent the system's separation from material dependence. And lastly, the limit is there to because a limited repertoire is one of the balance points of 3.5 for spontaneous casters, and all psionicists (even the Erudite) are spontaneous; removing the limited repertoire necessitates some other drawback in its place, even if it's arbitrary. (How well it works as a balance point is a matter of debate, but given that Erudites are the only manifesting class that can achieve T1 status, it's clear that no drawback at all would be worse.)

3) Someone with Planescape knowledge can probably help you more here, this is a legacy thing.

4) People houserule Will in all the time, it's nothing worth getting upset over.

[willpell]

Who claimed that you couldn't?
willpell: the real answer is because Complete Psionics is a terribly-written book, that you should probably avoid using.

That it's badly written I can tell, but it's not so badly written that I don't consider it worth rooting through for gems. My concern with the AC nerf was that it might seem odd to take some of the book's errata while ignoring others; I did decide to adopt the nerfing of Energy Stun and Energy Missile, not because I thought they were overpowered but just because it brought them in line with all the other Energy Ray derivatives and I saw no reason why Stun should be harder to save against than Push when it's probably deadlier already.


The Ardent, the Soulbow, and Practiced Manifester are almost literally the only things from that book worth having. Probably that save DC thing, too. All of the other general rules changes (read: stealth nerfs) are bad, the Lurk is bad, the Divine Mind is a travesty and a crime against psionics

I actually liked the concept of the Divine Mind, although it manages to make you wait even longer to stop being "a guy with a sword" than Paladin and Soulborn, which was jaw-dropping. Still, as a sort of crossbreed between the Ardent and the Marshal, both of which I like (the Ardent is probably my fifth to eighth favorite class and alone makes the book worth putting up with, and the DM uses the same Mantles), I figure it's worth some attention to try and figure out the spin. Overall it just looks like the usual "the authors think every additional point of BAB and every larger hit die size will double your character's effectiveness, so he needs his spell supply nerfed in order to ensure he doesn't curbstomp the primary casters" mentality, and thus it can be corrected for. And yeah the fluff is a bit stupid, but solvably so; I actually found explaining the difference between Clerics and Divine Minds to be an interesting challenge.


most of the broken powers out there are in CPsi (Synchronicity for starters)

I will consider myself forewarned.


the majority of the feats are just mind blade shapes

I did notice that. I find it hard to believe they could actually have been stupid enough to have thought making them all different feats was a good idea; most likely what happened was that the department was short-staffed that month and they ended up having to pad the page count by turning one "exotic mind blade" feat into like twelve of them, just to keep from having to generate any actual copy.


The PrCs are poor, and the Anarchic Initiate in particular is terribly designed (let's see, it's the only manifesting PrC that's 10/10, and it gives the Psion a better version of the Wilder's only schtick. Greaaaat.).

Again I will take this as a heads-up. The idea of a psion-wilder crossbreed appeals to me, but I certainly wouldn't want to obsolete the wilder in the process.

[Novawurmson]

Regarding #1, the "weapon made of energy" is a pretty common archetype (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LaserBlade). (WARNING: TV TROPES).

A few highlights might be Protoss Zealots (Starcraft), energy swords (Halo), beam sword (Super Smash Brothers), "a penknife with a force-field blade" (Issac Asimov's Foundation), the flaming sword wielded by the angel that guards the Garden of Eden (the Bible), Kuwabara's spirit sword thingie (http://webspace.webring.com/people/bw/wingzeal/kuwa_sword.jpg) (Yu Yu Hakauho), and, let's be honest, just about every anime ever.

Edit: I'd also just like to say that Soulknives can easily be fluffed as having an ancestral relic, an innate weapon, or the ability to shape some other type of energy (fire, for example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm)) into a physical weapon - not just psychic energy.

[willpell]

A few highlights might be Protoss Zealots (Starcraft), energy swords (Halo), beam sword (Super Smash Brothers), "a penknife with a force-field blade" (Issac Asimov's Foundation), the flaming sword wielded by the angel that guards the Garden of Eden (the Bible), Kuwabara's spirit sword thingie (http://webspace.webring.com/people/bw/wingzeal/kuwa_sword.jpg) (Yu Yu Hakauho), and, let's be honest, just about every anime ever.

Lightsabers and such are technological devices, not conjurations of the mind. Completely no comparison possible. If you're naked and have both hands tied behind your back, you can still create a mindblade in your hand. If you're in a universe where all non-living matter spontaneously disintegrates, you can still create a mindblade. The energy or spirit versions are somewhat closer, but I still say the basic concept is weird. If you can shape energy into a sword, why not shape it into a teakettle or a Ferarri? The soulknife isn't a general-purpose conjurer who makes anything he can imagine from ectoplasm, like the Shaper. So if he can't turn the power of his mind into anything else, why can he turn it into a sword? A physical sword, which can be broken! It just seems really random, although that's hardly unusual in D&D, given all the spells that let you Do X, but can't be reapplied in a different fashion that logically should be possible for anyone able to Do X.

Anyway, moving right along, I have a new point to make. Psicrystals: Shouldn't they get their own skill bonus in most cases? If my Psicrystal is a Sage who gives me +3 on Knowledge: Psionics, how is it that he himself knows nothing about Psionics? He has the same ranks in the skill as me, but a -2 intelligence penalty; shouldn't he at least have the same +3 bonus that he gives me?

[Cor1]

Anyway, moving right along, I have a new point to make. Psicrystals: Shouldn't they get their own skill bonus in most cases? If my Psicrystal is a Sage who gives me +3 on Knowledge: Psionics, how is it that he himself knows nothing about Psionics? He has the same ranks in the skill as me, but a -2 intelligence penalty; shouldn't he at least have the same +3 bonus that he gives me?

The psicrystal is a physical manifestation of a facet of its master's personality. It makes no sense that it would have its own skill rakns, so it uses yours.

What makes no sense is that 1) the Sage psicrystals don't give a bonus to ALL Knowledge skills, and 2) it doesn't get that bonus itself, while it's "a physical manifestation of its master's Sage personality facet", thus defined by the same thing that the bonus expresses mechanically; it has more reasons to get the bonus itself than actually giving it to its master.

[willpell]

The psicrystal is a physical manifestation of a facet of its master's personality. It makes no sense that it would have its own skill rakns, so it uses yours.

I agree with that part; what makes less sense is that it has an Int of 6 and thus is automatically stupider than you (assuming you're a Psion or Erudite), even though it represents the Sage part of your mind.

Today I spent some time working on my Erudite characters, and I noticed something interesting: because of the limited number of unique powers per day an Erudite can use, he's actually not especially interested in learning higher-level powers, compared to a Psion. If he knows Energy Ray, he doesn't really need to learn Energy Push or Energy Stun unless it's convenient for him to do so; the supplementary effects are nice, but he's really better off just augmenting Energy Ray to do 3d6 damage. There are other comparisons that are even more direct, and it's an interesting bit of tension: he has the ability to learn far more new powers than a Psion, but he doesn't especially care about learning new stronger versions of powers he already knows, when he can just augment them and not use up his UPPD.

[Cor1]

Oh, Psicrystals gain ability score increases (every 4 HD) in addition to the enhanced intelligence they gain as you level. They're stupid because they're not formed/evolved enough, like a Palm Pilot compared to an iPhone.

Also, Psicrystals gain feats. Did you ever meet a psicrystal with adventuring gear? Thus : Vow Of Poverty! You could buff it that far with powers, but that means manifesting them, and you're an Erudite, so it's a heavy tax in opportunity cost. And at high levels, continuous, free True Seeing and Freedom of Movement give a high bump to your pet rock's scouting ability, without costing you much.
Or just give an Ioun Stone of Int to your psicrystal. Or have it read a Tome. Or something.


The Erudite's stupid-broken trick is Soul Crystal. It's broken for every Psionic, but for the Erudite, it erases the class limitation.

It's a 7th lvl power that costs 13 pp, creates one small crystal that stays ML hours, and contains one psionic power you know. You can imbue it with 2*ML power points to manifest it. Any creature can weild it, and manifest the power inside at your ML, and it can be augmented with the embedded power points.

That means that an Erudite can simply have a Haversack with a pocket full of Quintessence, and store all the powers that exist in that, keeping their UPPD open for emergencies. Nice capstone at level 13.

I find it weird to take more than one attack power for each type of defense... okay, I find weird to take any power at all that allows PR, DR or any sort of save. So why would any psionic ever take more than one power for energy damage? The secondary effects generally allow for separate saves anyway, so if it's powerful enough to give you XP for defeating it at all, you won't be powerful enough to affect it.

[willpell]

Did you ever meet a psicrystal with adventuring gear? Thus : Vow Of Poverty!

That may be the ballsiest act of cheese I have ever witnessed. Congrats if you can find a DM who will fall for it; you'll be the Elminster/Mordekainen equivalent of his campaign world in no time.


Or just give an Ioun Stone of Int to your psicrystal. Or have it read a Tome. Or something.

You would probably prefer to have those things yourself, and I would rule that an Ioun won't orbit a psicrystal anyway (by the same logic that I wouldn't let it swear a Sacred Vow - it's not a spearate person, but an extension of yourself, so while it has some degree of independent intelligence it doesn't have all the options of an actual creature).

The rest of your post doesn't make any sense to me; you must have played the game a heck of a lot more than I have. I both envy your superior knowledge and pity your apparent jadedness; to me the game of D&D is still a vast and unfathomable frontier to be explored, not a mostly or entirely solved equation.

[Cor1]

That may be the ballsiest act of cheese I have ever witnessed. Congrats if you can find a DM who will fall for it; you'll be the Elminster/Mordekainen equivalent of his campaign world in no time.

Actually, I already did. Not the Psicrystal of Poverty, but basically becoming the Szass Tzam of that world. My character once died, and a clone of its physical form popped up, and triggered a war between three continents that only ended when its creator deactivated it. The original came back a century later, it's what I'm playing right now, and when it learned what its next version did, it decided to walk the path of the Exalted, erased all its damage powers and will get a Vow of Poverty, Peace and Nonviolence eventually.


You would probably prefer to have those things yourself, and I would rule that an Ioun won't orbit a psicrystal anyway (by the same logic that I wouldn't let it swear a Sacred Vow - it's not a spearate person, but an extension of yourself, so while it has some degree of independent intelligence it doesn't have all the options of an actual creature).


For giving an Ioun Stone to a psicrytstal, well, it's not like I'd have the use for a +2 Enhancement, so giving a jewel to my pet rock is more funny that useful; it's not like psicrystals have much use for their Int mod.

But psicrystals do gain feats. The begin at lvl1 with Alertness, and by lvl 7 you can do things to reformat that one into whatever you'd prefer it to have. You can rule that they can't swear Sacred Vows because it makes no sense, and I'm completely okay with that. I'm agreeing it makes no sense, but I find the idea funny.
It wouldn't be as broken as you think : the Exalted feats are very underpowered and almost none of them scale at all. Touch of Golden Ice, nifty... DC 13? Forget it. Nimbus of Holy Light thing, damages undead, cool... 1d6 forever, at contact range? Useless. I'd do that just to have an angelic pet rock that emits light and sees the truth in all things and that you can't imprison. It's a nice roleplay tool, not an IWIN button.


The rest of your post doesn't make any sense to me; you must have played the game a heck of a lot more than I have. I both envy your superior knowledge and pity your apparent jadedness; to me the game of D&D is still a vast and unfathomable frontier to be explored, not a mostly or entirely solved equation.

I've played the game a lot, yes... not all of it. There are many, many things I never tried. One thing I figured out is, there is that sort-of rock-paper-scissors at all levels, that makes it impossible to build anything that's completely immune to everything else, even in theory. The big equation has bounds, but no definite solution.

There is that incredible range of power between lvl 1-20, which is awesome, and the existence of intentional trap options, which sometimes cause me great sadness. VoP is a trap, and for the exemplar of the one character for whom it makes the most sense to take it (i.e. the Monk), it's downright suicidal. I hate that design model. There even are options to make that work, but they're hidden in four separate books : Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 / whatever, with VoP and Tashalatora (PsyWar levels count as Monk levels for most Monk abilities) : PHB, EPH, BoED, then that book with Tashalatora. (an Eberron splat IIRC)
Role-playing games shouldn't have options that punish players for taking them. "Rewarding system mastery" is one thing, even one thing I like, but designing feats like Dodge is scamming.

[Yuki Akuma]

You want to know the inspiration for the Soulknife?

This person. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke)

[shadow_archmagi]

Also, Psicrystals gain feats. Did you ever meet a psicrystal with adventuring gear? Thus : Vow Of Poverty! .

NO NO NO THIS IS SO WRONG

You need to buy your psicrystal tiny shoes!

[Empedocles]

I saw this thread, and I got scared, hoping I wouldn't have to read a brand new "Binders" thread all over again. Luckily, you make some good points/ask good questions that I'd like to address.

1) It seemed like a concept that should be filled to WotC, for whatever reason and one that evolved from the 3.0 PrC. The Jedi explanation is very likely. No, it's not that close of a parallel but you get the whole mental focus/energy weapon thing. Xephs are the race that get fast and have soulknife as their favored class. I encourage you to fluff them how you want, or write them off as a human subrace. I'll expand on the Jedi thing in a minute (SW NERD INCOMING :smallbiggrin:)

2) Quick! Duck! Complete Psionic is coming! In all seriousness, the erudite is a terribly written class that should be avoided at all costs, especially since there is literally no reason to play one.

3) Mind Flayers are in the underdark. Also I think it's reasonable that the githyanki stayed in the Astral Plane, even though the mind flayers do presumably frequent it (being such a magical race; also, I feel like there's some stuff in Lord of Madness that says they go there a lot, or travel there often). It's a near infinite plane that can grant access to most other planes (it's the plane where all other planes "are," basically. Or at least that's the normal interpretation). For an imperial species like the githyanki, it's perfect, allowing them to strike where they want.

4) Yes. If you let a psion improve his Reflex with a psicrystal, you will break the game. It's like giving a tristalt artificer//factotum//wizard a Divine Rank of 20. I don't recommend it.

Now...soulknives and jedi :smalltongue:

Lightsabers don't require the Force to wield, but only a Force user can make one of generally acceptable quality, and he does this by "attuning" himself to the lightsaber crystal (*cough*crystal motif in psionics *cough*). In addition, to use a lightsaber well (be able to deflect lightsaber bolts, compete with droids and such) you really had to be a force user of some kind. There are very few exceptions.

[willpell]

Re: Psylocke - Yeah, I don't like the idea of an entire class being based off of one person. I'm gonna have to come up with a hack to the SK that I can stand - some pun on the idea of a "cutting wit" is the best I can come up with so far.


Quick! Duck! Complete Psionic is coming! In all seriousness, the erudite is a terribly written class that should be avoided at all costs, especially since there is literally no reason to play one.

Actually I completely disagree; now that I've gotten used to it, I really love the Erudite, he makes a great complement to the Psion, in that he has far more options but has to be very circumspect in his use of them.


4) Yes. If you let a psion improve his Reflex with a psicrystal, you will break the game. It's like giving a tristalt artificer//factotum//wizard a Divine Rank of 20. I don't recommend it.

I'm inclined to think you are probably being sarcastic here. And yes, I mean that exactly as I say it. My new disclaimer is not exagerrating; I really am completely useless at telling when people are being joking. Even in this case, I am only about 80% certain that you do not literally believe exactly what you said.

[willpell]

Per RAW, the metapsi Extend Power doesn't increase the duration of a power whose duration is "concentration". Would that include powers whose duration is "concentration, up to 1 round/level"? Can I double the maximum length of time I'm allowed to concentrate? Per RAW it's probably "no", but I think a reasonable houserule might say yes.

Also, the way Focused Sunder is written, it's unclear whether attacking a wall or something still requires you to expend your psionic focus.

And with Greater Power Penetration and its prerequisite, do you expend your psionic focus just once to activate both feats and gain the +8, or do you expend one focus, gain another, expend that too, and then manifest your power?

[eggs]

Also, the way Focused Sunder is written, it's unclear whether attacking a wall or something still requires you to expend your psionic focus.
I'm not sure what you mean. Focused Sunder only affects weapons.

And with Greater Power Penetration and its prerequisite, do you expend your psionic focus just once to activate both feats and gain the +8, or do you expend one focus, gain another, expend that too, and then manifest your power?
You use Greater Power Penetration by expending psionic focus once.

If you have a way to expend your psionic focus twice (like with Psicrystal Containment or Psychic Weapon Master) Greater Power Penetration doesn't stack with either itself (per the normal stacking rules) or Power Penetration (per the "overlap" clause).

[lord_khaine]

I'm told (pure hearsay) that one of the lead developers there had always felt that SM/SNA should have a similar restriction, but either got overruled or came to the scene too late for them. Then, when he got his shot at Astral Contruct instead... well.

What i heard, was that the author of the book felt that Astral contruct were OP and took to much of the groups time, because of a player he had in his private campaign who made a wilder, picked the power, and then startet spamming highlevel constructs.


You want to know the inspiration for the Soulknife?

This person.

No, there is a older source who fits the class better, In this manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_YuYu_Hakusho_characters)

[willpell]

What i heard, was that the author of the book felt that Astral contruct were OP and took to much of the groups time, because of a player he had in his private campaign who made a wilder, picked the power, and then startet spamming highlevel constructs.

Which is probably true, but he should have put something in there saying that you should also do the same to clerics and wizards casting Summon Monster and Druids casting SNA, otherwise you're just nerfing the Shaper Psion's entire schtick for no reason.


No, there is a older source who fits the class better, In this manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_YuYu_Hakusho_characters)

YuYu Hakusho is NOT older than Psylocke. Neither am I for that matter. Her best-known incarnation might have come later, but the character of Betsy Braddock dates back to 1976.


I'm not sure what you mean. Focused Sunder only affects weapons.


Focused Sunder [Psionic]
You can sense the stress points on others’ weapons.
Prerequisite
Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Sunder.
Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus.
When you strike at an opponent’s weapon, you ignore half of the weapon’s total hardness (round down). Total hardness includes any magical or psionic enhancements possessed by the weapon that increase its hardness.
Special
You can also sense the stress points in any hard construction, such as wooden doors or stone walls, and can ignore half of the object’s total hardness (round down) when attacking that object.

The text doesn't clarify whether the "Special" part includes the "you must expend your psionic focus" specification of the main Benefit.


Greater Power Penetration doesn't stack with either itself (per the normal stacking rules) or Power Penetration (per the "overlap" clause).

Greater Power Penetration explicitly stacks with Power Penetration; it would be 100% useless if it didn't. I'm simply asking whether one expenditure of your psychic focus can suffice for both feats. Greater Psionic Empowerment was intentionally written as "the bonus to save DC from Psionic Empowerment becomes +2 instead of +1"; the same template should have been used for GPP, but we all know how good Wotco's editors were about this sort of thing.

[Essence_of_War]

Greater Power Penetration explicitly stacks with Power Penetration; it would be 100% useless if it didn't. I'm simply asking whether one expenditure of your psychic focus can suffice for both feats. Greater Psionic Empowerment was intentionally written as "the bonus to save DC from Psionic Empowerment becomes +2 instead of +1"; the same template should have been used for GPP, but we all know how good Wotco's editors were about this sort of thing.

here's what the srd says:


Greater Power Penetration [Psionic]
Your powers are especially potent at breaking through power resistance.

Prerequisite
Power Penetration.

Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You get a +8 bonus on manifester level checks to overcome a creature’s power resistance. This bonus overlaps with the bonus from Power Penetration.


The bonus overlaps. You can't get any benefit from using 'both feats' and so expending your focus multiple times is not useful.

[willpell]

That is not how it reads in the EPH. Glad they fixed something for a change.

[Answerer]

That is not how it reads in the EPH. Glad they fixed something for a change.
The SRD includes only official errata, so if that's not how it reads in the XPH, then you should look at the errata file.

[willpell]

Indeed I should have and now I have.

By the way, am I the only one who feels like Reckless Offense, Sidestep Charge and Stand Still ought to be fighter bonus feats? They're not psionic, I don't know what the heck they're doing in the EPH, and we all know the fighter could use some love. Is there any reason I shouldn't houserule that they're valid choices?

[Answerer]

No, there is no reason that you shouldn't.

[eggs]

The text doesn't clarify whether the "Special" part includes the "you must expend your psionic focus" specification of the main Benefit.
Okay. I skipped the Special section.

The feat is only usable when expending the focus; that would apply to all of its features.