The Champion of Cyrodiil vs the dragonborn

[Harry]

The Champion of Cyrodiil vs the dragonborn

rule1:the champion is a imperial and the dragonborn is a nord rule2:the champion has all skills maxed same goes for the dragonborn rule3: the dragonborn has all perks rule4: the champion has finished all expansion packs rule5:no cheat codes or mods

Round1: which would win in a fight using fluff only round2: which is stronger by game mechanics?

[NNescio]

The Champion of Cyrodiil vs the dragonborn

rule1:the champion is a imperial and the dragonborn is a nord rule2:the champion has all skills maxed same goes for the dragonborn rule3: the dragonborn has all perks rule4: the champion has finished all expansion packs rule5:no cheat codes or mods

Round1: which would win in a fight using fluff only round2: which is stronger by game mechanics?

Fluff? The Champion of Cyrodiil is the Mad God Sheogorath. GG.
Mechanics? Sheogorath (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sheogorath) is invincible. Game, set, match.

Pre-ascension Champion vs the Dragonborn? Skyrim has enchanting and alchemy 'infinite' loops. The latter wins.

[Mewtarthio]

The Champion wins, but Martin Septim takes all the credit.

[Sanguine]

Well they both have achieved CHIM so the battle will be nigh incomprehensible if viewed objectively. However all that any observer will see is the end. Which is two very frustrated godlings saying. "Screw this, let's go get some Nord Mead."

[Eldan]

If we include CHIM, it comes down to which game has the more open console and construction kit.

[Sanguine]

If we include CHIM, it comes down to which game has the more open console and construction kit.

I assumed the no cheat codes restriction banned use of the console. That does still however leave CHIM's most basic and powerful function: Reloading your game.

[Lamech]

Well by fluff, sheogoroth wins. By not fluff, I'm pretty sure that the champion of Cyrodil has better alechemy. Like reflect spells 100%, reflect damage 100%. And AoE paralyze.

[Eldan]

I assumed the no cheat codes restriction banned use of the console. That does still however leave CHIM's most basic and powerful function: Reloading your game.

****. Yeah, the Dragon Break means the fight is probably never actually finished in subjective time. As they can both just turn it back whenever they start losing.

So, by both fluff and crunch, this fight can not be resolved.

[Comet]

[CHIM madness]


[Even more CHIM madness]


[Whoa nelly, CHIM].


[CHIM CHIM Dragon Break CHIM]

So, by both fluff and crunch, this fight can not be resolved.

And this is why I've come to love the Elder Scrolls games. On the surface they're as mundane as fantasy can get, but if you dig a bit deeper? Insanity.

[WitchSlayer]

And this is why I've come to love the Elder Scrolls games. On the surface they're as mundane as fantasy can get, but if you dig a bit deeper? Insanity.

Really? Because I'm quite the opposite. I can't stand the idea that "OH THEY JUST REALIZE THAT THEY'RE IN A GAME." When it's been done before and isn't really that entertaining to me in the slightest. It's also terrible because there can be no versus thread involving Elder Scrolls heroes without going "WELL CHIM..."

Also Dragonborn has access to the Space Marine mod and, as we all know, it's always safe to bet on 40k. :smalltongue:

[Aidan305]

And this is why I've come to love the Elder Scrolls games. On the surface they're as mundane as fantasy can get, but if you dig a bit deeper? Insanity.

Clearly it is all a ploy by Sheogorrath.

[Prime32]

Nerevarine wins by Levitate-sniping. :smallamused:

[Cespenar]

Nerevarine wins by Levitate-sniping. :smallamused:

:smallbiggrin:

Hey, if it worked on Vivec...

[Tavar]

For someone not in the know, what is CHIM?

[pffh]

For someone not in the know, what is CHIM?

It basically means that the main characters in each game can save, load, use the console, the game editor and mods and it's all part of the characters in-game power set.

[Mewtarthio]

Which would mean that a fight between two CHIM adepts is a multiplayer match. TES games don't really support multiplayer, so the world immediately explodes from paradox.

Or, alternatively, if TES games did have multiplayer, they would disallow cheating and would most certainly not have save/load functionality. Thus, CHIM is useless here.

[Sanguine]

For someone not in the know, what is CHIM?

CHIM is a state of transcendent enlightenment that grants one the ability to mess with the universe. It is important to note that the PCs aren't the only people to have achieved CHIM. Vivec has done so and it is theorized that Tiber Septim had as well.

[Cespenar]

So... Elder Scrolls Universe = Matrix?

[Eldan]

Sort of. The problem is this.

It all comes down to Vivec. The warrior-poet god of the dark elves, and their crazy mythology.

Out of the world, the problem was this. All the sacred texts from Vivec were written by one guy, over teh course of a sleepless night involving coffee, cheap alcohol, cigarettes and, as some people theorize, drugs.

CHIM is a transcendent state of mind. That much is clear. However, there are some seriously, seriously cryptic allusions to it also being a state where one can access the Elder Scrolls construction set, the console, and the fast reload key.

E.g. a few quotes:

“Certitude is for the puzzle-box logicians and girls of white glamour who harbor it on their own time. I am a letter written in uncertainty.” – Vivec, 36 Lessons, Sermon

“Vivec is a poet. Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth.” – Sotha Sil’s Last Words

“The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.” – 36 Lessons, Sermon 11 [emphasis mine]


“The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.” - 36 Lessons, Sermon 23

“CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.”2 – The Mythic Dawn Commentaries

[The secret of the Tower is h]ow to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.”- Vehk’s Teaching

“Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.” – 36 Lessons, Sermon 19

[Fri]

Nerevarine wins by Levitate-sniping. :smallamused:

I was just going to suggest this.

[Cespenar]

Sort of. The problem is this.

It all comes down to Vivec. The warrior-poet god of the dark elves, and their crazy mythology.

Out of the world, the problem was this. All the sacred texts from Vivec were written by one guy, over teh course of a sleepless night involving coffee, cheap alcohol, cigarettes and, as some people theorize, drugs.

CHIM is a transcendent state of mind. That much is clear. However, there are some seriously, seriously cryptic allusions to it also being a state where one can access the Elder Scrolls construction set, the console, and the fast reload key.

E.g. a few quotes:

“Certitude is for the puzzle-box logicians and girls of white glamour who harbor it on their own time. I am a letter written in uncertainty.” – Vivec, 36 Lessons, Sermon

“Vivec is a poet. Trust not the words of a poet, as he is born to seduce. Yet for poetry to seize the heart, it must ring with the chimes of truth.” – Sotha Sil’s Last Words

“The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.” – 36 Lessons, Sermon 11 [emphasis mine]


“The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.” - 36 Lessons, Sermon 23

“CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.”2 – The Mythic Dawn Commentaries

[The secret of the Tower is h]ow to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.”- Vehk’s Teaching

“Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark.” – 36 Lessons, Sermon 19

Heh. The fourth quote is especially funny in depicting the player. Though only the 36 Lessons sermons have that feeling. The other quotes are just normal spiritualist talk.

And by the way, if the allusions are indeed to being the player or having access to the construction set, I don't see how it all connects to Vivec.

[Emperor Ing]

Assuming both combatants are not in a state where they can rewrite reality, I assumed that the Dragonborn would win, if only because he has an ability the Champion doesn't: Yelling.

[pffh]

Assuming both combatants are not in a state where they can rewrite reality, I assumed that the Dragonborn would win, if only because he has an ability the Champion doesn't: Yelling.

Well if we ignore the chim the champion has stuff like 100% chameleon, 100% damage reflection and 100% magic reflection. So he's unnoticeable and unkillable while the dragonborn can only reach 80% damage reduction and 100% magic resistance.

Not to mention that, as was pointed out earlier, the champion is a god/daedra now and thus immortal.

[Fjolnir]

Why is it that whenever I hear about the dragonshout mechanic I immediately picture an old man trying to get people off his lawn?

[Sodalite]

Forgive my ignorance if I am wrong, but didn't the champion gain the title of Sheogorath, but not true daedrahood? Maybe I'm just remembering what some character incorrectly said in the game, but I'm not sure.

[pffh]

Forgive my ignorance if I am wrong, but didn't the champion gain the title of Sheogorath, but not true daedrahood? Maybe I'm just remembering what some character incorrectly said in the game, but I'm not sure.

In the elder scrolls world you become what you act like. For example the Nerevarine probably wasn't the Nerevarine until he/she started doing everything according to the prophecy so he/she became the Nerevarine and so will the champion become the Mad God (and in Skyrim he already has).

[Sodalite]

Would that mean the dragonborn released the champion from Pelagius's mind, the original Sheogorath returned to that form and ended up there, or that there are two people being Sheogorath but not the same person?

[pffh]

Would that mean the dragonborn released the champion from Pelagius's mind, the original Sheogorath returned to that form and ended up there, or that there are two people being Sheogorath but not the same person?

Sheogorath became Jyggalag while the champion became Sheogorath and is the one you meet in Pelagius' mind.

[Androgeus]

Would that mean the dragonborn released the champion from Pelagius's mind, the original Sheogorath returned to that form and ended up there, or that there are two people being Sheogorath but not the same person?

Erm, Sheogorath was actually Jyggalag, Daedric prince of Order cursed to be Sheogorath by the other princes. Shivering Isle dealt with releasing him from the curse and taking over the mantle of mad god, so the one in Pelagius's mind was meant to be the champion. I think he also makes reference to some stuff that happens in Oblivion.

[Eldan]

Would that mean the dragonborn released the champion from Pelagius's mind, the original Sheogorath returned to that form and ended up there, or that there are two people being Sheogorath but not the same person?

This is the Elder Scrolls. The most likely answer to that is "Yes", and if you don't watch yourself, you'll have books championing all three theories in the next game.



Heh. The fourth quote is especially funny in depicting the player. Though only the 36 Lessons sermons have that feeling. The other quotes are just normal spiritualist talk.

And by the way, if the allusions are indeed to being the player or having access to the construction set, I don't see how it all connects to Vivec.

The Sermons were all written by Vivec about Vivec, and he is the only person to have certainly achieved CHIM in canon. Sadly, he is also pretty much the only person to describe it, and, as the first two quotes show, he's also the god of lies, amongst other things.

Number five, the mythic dawn commentaries is interesting:

“CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.”2 – The Mythic Dawn Commentaries

Morrowind and earlier games described the province of Cyrodiil as tropical jungle, rice fields and South American-style ruins of old elven civilizations. Oblivion showed them as temperate forestland. Hence "once jungled". The Red King is Tiber Septim, the first emperor of the Septim Dynasty, also rumoured to have achieved CHIM, and who seems to have changed Cyrodiil into a less dangerous land to set his kingdom in, at some point.

Vekh's teaching... Vekh is another name for Vivec. "The Tower" is a very central concept in Elder Scrolls mythology, but basically refers to the universe and its laws. This is Vivec describing what achieving CHIM and understanding the truth about the universe is like.


By the way: there's a nice series of articles on the web describing some of the basics of Elder Scrolls lore (it doesn't go into the Tower and the Ehlnofey, but that's excusable, as those things are even more obscure than CHIM and the Dragon Break). Just google "Metaphysics of Morrowind".

[Slayn82]

The Imperial Agent of Daggerfall loses so badly, that everyone wins. Alternativelly, he traps everyone else under the game frames, to fall forever on oblivion - the bug that the Oblivion in the lore owes its name. Then he corrupts their saves.:smallfurious: Thats why i call him Zalgo Molag Bal.

[Seriously, the Elder Scrolls has so much support for modding, because of all the mods created by the community attempting to fix the bugs of Daggerfall. Many bugs became series features, like OBLIVION - and nude mods]