[3.5] Fun with Illusions - How to screw with your DM's mind?

[Akeii]

So I'm pretty much sold on playing as an arcane illusionist of some sort. Actually, amendment. I'm sold on playing as an effective arcane illusionist of some sort.

This post raises several questions. Firstly, how can someone playing as an illusionist attempt to do anything without their DMs instantly knowing what they're trying? Aside from will saves, I mean. I briefly considered maybe writing what you actually did on a piece of paper and revealing it later, but mainly I want to do sneaky things without the DM, and thus the NPCs he's controlling, having inside knowledge. Because that would be just lame.

Secondly, do you know any good tactics or methods of seriously screwing enemies over using a mix of illusion spells with anything else? This is mainly more of a gameplay/spell selection question than a build question, but if you find the latter helps, go for it.

[Righteous Doggy]

I always just had a trust thing with my DM where if he asked whats going on I'd say "wouldn't you like to know" or "that would ruin the suprise!" but I'd still mark my spells off if he really had to check on me.

[Roguenewb]

As a long time DM, all I can say is this, you can't keep secrets from your DM. He's the flowing blood of reality, if you don't tell him things there may be huge piles of dependent effects that can't be adjuticated at all while this is going on. You just have to trust him to keep the NPCs who've failed saves seperate from what you've told him

[Water_Bear]

I'm going to assume you want to keep thing from NPCs, in which case just remember the Golden Rule of Illusions; they (usually) don't give a Will save to Disbelieve unless they are interacted with.

Use Major Image / Project Image and Invisibility to throw enemies off about your location, Disguise Self and Misdirection to throw them off about your abilities, and other Illusions to control the battlefield by altering their perceptions and creating Quasi-Real obstacles.

One final note; Do Not Lie to Your DM. It will not help anyone, and it is highly antisocial. If your DM constantly acts on Metagame knowledge to make your character less effective, call them on it. If they keep doing it, join a new game. Do Not Lie to Your DM. Ever.

[Ernir]

If the DM doesn't know about it, it doesn't happen.

Seriously, this isn't some "The DM is god! All bow to the omniscient DM!" thing. It's that telling the DM what you want to do is your only way to interact with the game world. :smallconfused:

Anyway, basic illusion tactics?
Don't cast them in plain sight. Spellcraft is a skill, and people get suspicious when things change right in front of them.
Don't create fantastic effects. People poke those.
Don't make things seem out of place. People poke those too.
Play with people's assumptions. Like the one of the floor existing.

[OracleofSilence]

Other things:

Delay Spell is more then a little useful. It allows you to simply and noneffective increase the believability of illusions by making their placement be more "real".

Use illusions to make enemy's attack each other. This is harder then it sounds. But it is possible with a fair DM.

Don't expect illusions to do what they cannot (also seems simple, but you cannot fr example, use Silent Image to go all Mission Impossible on a couple of guards by projecting a visual of a blank hallway you would need invisibility for that).

Illusions, while very very strong when correctly used, are far more reliant on DM adjucation then most other schools of magic. However, it is also among the most versatile schools with Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Shadowcrafter alone making the school many, many many times more powerful. then it appears at first sight.

[Callista]

Yeah, you do have to tell your DM. Don't screw with your DM. But your DM's NPCs are fair game.

The classic way to use illusions is of course to fake more powerful spells. Like a wall of flame, for example. Or pretend you're summoning something big and nasty. Or provide an illusionary boulder for your party's rogue to sneak attack from inside.

Illusions are most likely to be believed if the enemy expects the real thing. If you're in the woods, a tree makes a great illusion. In a stone hallway, you can easily disguise a door as part of the wall. Throw a real fireball to singe the enemy, then put up an illusionary wall of fire to pen them in. Illusions should be so expected that the enemy never thinks to try to disbelieve them.

[Venger]

So I'm pretty much sold on playing as an arcane illusionist of some sort. Actually, amendment. I'm sold on playing as an effective arcane illusionist of some sort.

This post raises several questions. Firstly, how can someone playing as an illusionist attempt to do anything without their DMs instantly knowing what they're trying? Aside from will saves, I mean. I briefly considered maybe writing what you actually did on a piece of paper and revealing it later, but mainly I want to do sneaky things without the DM, and thus the NPCs he's controlling, having inside knowledge. Because that would be just lame.

Secondly, do you know any good tactics or methods of seriously screwing enemies over using a mix of illusion spells with anything else? This is mainly more of a gameplay/spell selection question than a build question, but if you find the latter helps, go for it.
the name of the game is absolutely to keep your enemies guessing. If I had to sum up playing an illusionist effectively in one word, it would be this:

Confusion.

No, not that one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm), but rather the concept as a whole.

The problem that a lot of players who are new to playing illusionists (by which I mean characters who specialise in illusion, not just specialised wizards) run into is trying to focus too narrowly on illusions. What do I mean by this?

Well, illusions are dangerous/useful when paired partially with real things, right? If you hide the secret door that you and the party ducked into with, say, a silent image of smooth stone over the seam so that the guards going up and down the hall, it's really only useful because there was a wall there in the first place for it to blend into, right? You wouldn't just cast a wall in the middle of nowhere, that would look silly.

Think of your magic as a whole like this. you don't need to conjure from whole cloth, you just need to embellish slightly on what is already there. Like when you're trying to make a master of disguise, when you're not impersonating a specific individual, but rather want a safe "adventuring face'', you always go for "minor details only" since it grants a +5 to the check.

By the same token of logic, there is often an advantage to being subtle with your illusions rather than bombastic with them. Remember the adage about special effects in movies, a contemporary example of IRL illusions: If you notice it's there, then it's failed.

First timers with illusion spells are tempted to do stuff like make dragons appear to ward off enemies with the x image spells. the shortish duration, limited range they can move around in, and their high likelihood (in most cases) to be "interacted with" in the form of attack makes them generally poor choices.

Think of illusion as an optical illusion (technically, it is anyway) and your job as supplying the enemy with what they are expecting to see rather than what they're not.

You're running down that stone hallway again away from the guard patrol. there is a T intersection at the end. Wat do? Don't make a wall, they know the halls, they'll be entitled to a save or might just open fire. make a silent image of long shadows falling in the opposite direction.

You seldom want to surprise your enemies with illusion. Quite the opposite, you want to lull them into a false sense of security. This makes it much more satisfying (and fun) when you go in for the kill, depending on your preferred method of dispatch.

What I've been talking about up till now is using illusion on its own. But, since it's more of a garnish than a main dish, and a caster can't survive on illusions alone, you'll probably be supplementing it with other kinds of spells too (whether it be through other schools as a wizard, through wands as a beguiler, or through other slots as a sorcerer or chameleon, since I don't know exactly what kind of class you're planning on)

since illusions function best by building off what's "already there" as it were, like by covering the seam for the secret door earlier on, they go really well with conjuration spells.

the consequence for believing an illusory allip is real? waste your actions for a few rounds.

the consequences for failing to believe a real allip is real? enjoy your wis drain.

If you have summoning spells in your repetoire, a great way to enhance their usefulness on the battlefield is by supplementing them with illusions via spells like minor image (especially for monsters like allips, who don't make any discernable sound) or phantom battle.

if you can summon one allip in a battle, you're a real badass, but if you can suddenly summon 2 or 3, then your enemies will be quite disheartened. assuming one makes the save against a fake, after the real one drains some wis from one of them, they won't know what to think, and that can really turn the tide in a battle that you're (in actuality) outnumbered in.

just as making things appear (with the "image" line, nightmare terrain, illusory pit, etc) is an important part of illusion, so too is making things disappear. invisibility is good for more than just getting SA dice an extra time (though it is pretty great at that)

you're running down the hallway (again) from the guard patrol. there is no T intersection or turns. no secret door either, your DM is wise to your ways. wat do? A wall won't work, he reminds you, they patrol this place regularly and know how long the hall is by exactly how many paces they take every day. not wholly unreasonable, you think.

well then, if a fake wall that they can see is out, then the inverse must also be true. wall of stone + invisibility (or invisible spell if your DM is okay with that use of it) = winning. the guards see you going down the hall plain as day and chase after to hit a stone wall. you could probably wrangle a little damage out of that (it'd hurt) and they'd certainly be confused about how to overcome a wall that they can't see (digging/pickaxing their way through would be difficult without being able to ascertain progress) and depending on the height of the ceiling, you might be able to prevent them from climbing over by sealing off your escape route entirely.

while the specifics may vary depending on exactly what kind of character you want to play, just remember:

fake things can only blend in when there's something to blend in with. either use the environment or conjure something. you always want there to be a consequence for the enemy when they disbelieve your illusions.

[Feytalist]

<illusion stuff>

This is good advice.

This is the goodest advice, really. In fact, this is so good, I'm going to bookmark it and take it out whenever there is another discussion about illusions. Kudos.

[Venger]

This is good advice.

This is the goodest advice, really. In fact, this is so good, I'm going to bookmark it and take it out whenever there is another discussion about illusions. Kudos.

Wow! thanks, that makes me feel really good about myself :)

[Sudain]

If the DM doesn't know about it, it doesn't happen.

Seriously, this isn't some "The DM is god! All bow to the omniscient DM!" thing. It's that telling the DM what you want to do is your only way to interact with the game world. :smallconfused:

Anyway, basic illusion tactics?
Don't cast them in plain sight. Spellcraft is a skill, and people get suspicious when things change right in front of them.
Don't create fantastic effects. People poke those.
Don't make things seem out of place. People poke those too.
Play with people's assumptions. Like the one of the floor existing.

Yes, and making a spell craft check to know which spell was cast requires no action - they can just do it to seeing you cast. Good thinking about what people poke. To build off of this, I'd suggest reading up on what con-men do(what types of lies and how they go about them) and pyschology. What an illusionist does is really just lie. The just have really cool tricks that enable them to make really convincing lies.

Another thing I'd suggest is to be able to formulate your lie into words inside your head. If your DM or party asks what you are trying to do: you should be able to tell them. It'll also act as a point of focus so you don't get overly enthusiastic.


Other things:

Delay Spell is more then a little useful. It allows you to simply and noneffective increase the believability of illusions by making their placement be more "real".

Use illusions to make enemy's attack each other. This is harder then it sounds. But it is possible with a fair DM.

Don't expect illusions to do what they cannot (also seems simple, but you cannot fr example, use Silent Image to go all Mission Impossible on a couple of guards by projecting a visual of a blank hallway you would need invisibility for that).

Illusions, while very very strong when correctly used, are far more reliant on DM adjucation then most other schools of magic. However, it is also among the most versatile schools with Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Shadowcrafter alone making the school many, many many times more powerful. then it appears at first sight.

Humm... I'm not sure how delay spell would be useful though. Interesting thought process now. :) Now I'm wondering if silent/stilled spells and or spontaneous casting would be more beneficial. Gah; now you've got my brain working! :)





the name of the game is absolutely to keep your enemies guessing. If I had to sum up playing an illusionist effectively in one word, it would be this:

Confusion.

No, not that one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm), but rather the concept as a whole.

The problem that a lot of players who are new to playing illusionists (by which I mean characters who specialise in illusion, not just specialised wizards) run into is trying to focus too narrowly on illusions. What do I mean by this?

Well, illusions are dangerous/useful when paired partially with real things, right? If you hide the secret door that you and the party ducked into with, say, a silent image of smooth stone over the seam so that the guards going up and down the hall, it's really only useful because there was a wall there in the first place for it to blend into, right? You wouldn't just cast a wall in the middle of nowhere, that would look silly.

Think of your magic as a whole like this. you don't need to conjure from whole cloth, you just need to embellish slightly on what is already there. Like when you're trying to make a master of disguise, when you're not impersonating a specific individual, but rather want a safe "adventuring face'', you always go for "minor details only" since it grants a +5 to the check.

By the same token of logic, there is often an advantage to being subtle with your illusions rather than bombastic with them. Remember the adage about special effects in movies, a contemporary example of IRL illusions: If you notice it's there, then it's failed.

First timers with illusion spells are tempted to do stuff like make dragons appear to ward off enemies with the x image spells. the shortish duration, limited range they can move around in, and their high likelihood (in most cases) to be "interacted with" in the form of attack makes them generally poor choices.

Think of illusion as an optical illusion (technically, it is anyway) and your job as supplying the enemy with what they are expecting to see rather than what they're not.

You're running down that stone hallway again away from the guard patrol. there is a T intersection at the end. Wat do? Don't make a wall, they know the halls, they'll be entitled to a save or might just open fire. make a silent image of long shadows falling in the opposite direction.

You seldom want to surprise your enemies with illusion. Quite the opposite, you want to lull them into a false sense of security. This makes it much more satisfying (and fun) when you go in for the kill, depending on your preferred method of dispatch.

What I've been talking about up till now is using illusion on its own. But, since it's more of a garnish than a main dish, and a caster can't survive on illusions alone, you'll probably be supplementing it with other kinds of spells too (whether it be through other schools as a wizard, through wands as a beguiler, or through other slots as a sorcerer or chameleon, since I don't know exactly what kind of class you're planning on)

since illusions function best by building off what's "already there" as it were, like by covering the seam for the secret door earlier on, they go really well with conjuration spells.

the consequence for believing an illusory allip is real? waste your actions for a few rounds.

the consequences for failing to believe a real allip is real? enjoy your wis drain.

If you have summoning spells in your repetoire, a great way to enhance their usefulness on the battlefield is by supplementing them with illusions via spells like minor image (especially for monsters like allips, who don't make any discernable sound) or phantom battle.

if you can summon one allip in a battle, you're a real badass, but if you can suddenly summon 2 or 3, then your enemies will be quite disheartened. assuming one makes the save against a fake, after the real one drains some wis from one of them, they won't know what to think, and that can really turn the tide in a battle that you're (in actuality) outnumbered in.

just as making things appear (with the "image" line, nightmare terrain, illusory pit, etc) is an important part of illusion, so too is making things disappear. invisibility is good for more than just getting SA dice an extra time (though it is pretty great at that)

you're running down the hallway (again) from the guard patrol. there is no T intersection or turns. no secret door either, your DM is wise to your ways. wat do? A wall won't work, he reminds you, they patrol this place regularly and know how long the hall is by exactly how many paces they take every day. not wholly unreasonable, you think.

well then, if a fake wall that they can see is out, then the inverse must also be true. wall of stone + invisibility (or invisible spell if your DM is okay with that use of it) = winning. the guards see you going down the hall plain as day and chase after to hit a stone wall. you could probably wrangle a little damage out of that (it'd hurt) and they'd certainly be confused about how to overcome a wall that they can't see (digging/pickaxing their way through would be difficult without being able to ascertain progress) and depending on the height of the ceiling, you might be able to prevent them from climbing over by sealing off your escape route entirely.

while the specifics may vary depending on exactly what kind of character you want to play, just remember:

fake things can only blend in when there's something to blend in with. either use the environment or conjure something. you always want there to be a consequence for the enemy when they disbelieve your illusions.

Awesome advice - thank you!

As a side note: illusion spells have the LEAST spells in complimentary books. So use your core spells to great effect. Enchantment only has a few more. Transmutation has the most by far. If you specialize I'd strongly consider enchantment, transumation, conjuration as complimentary schools. Evocation, Divination, and Abjuration as backup schools. I'm against necromancy generally so... that's me.

Talk with your party, if they are all hack'n slash then illusions may not be useful to them. If they are all sneaky sneaky, stab, FLEE! then illusions could be very useful. Just figure out a balance.

I'd consider master specialist for illusion for a Prestige class - may or may not be worth your time.

[OracleofSilence]

What I was suggesting with Delay spell was a a simple suggestion for believability. For example, you have line of sight down a hallway that the ambassador whose files you want to access to trick cannot. You conjure a Major Image of a bunch of Guards to run up, and say that (insert reason to leave the room here). Then you wait cause the spell to be on hold until it is necessary (he is getting suspicious, maybe you see the files you want, and just need to distract him for a second), and if all else fails, use it as a distraction to roflstomp him.

And yes, one of the reasons Beguiler is a good class is the free Silent/Still spell it gets. Cause illusions are more believable when you are not spraying purple sparks.

[Sudain]

Humm... alright that makes sense.

I just noticed the Image line of spells use concentration for a duration. Not sure if there is a trick to get around that but worth looking into.

[OracleofSilence]

Not sure if i am thinking ofthe right thing here, but i believe Sonorous Hum (that holds concentration for you, right?) is persistable. If it is, you can make "concentration" into "all day".

[sol_kanar]

In the Complete Scoundrel handbook there is a Skill Trick called False Theurgy that effectively lets you disguise a spell as any other spell of the same level. No rolls required, no possibility to understand the trick: if someone makes a Spellcraft check, it believes that the spell is the one you designed, instead of the real one.
It costs a swift action, but it's worth it: summon monster III? Nope, major image. Major image? Nope, summon monster III (and Chuck Testa, I might add). And so on.

Another interesting Skill Trick from the same handbook is Conceal Spellcasting, but it requires a Sleight of Hand vs Spot roll, which may not be viable for an Illusionist (but it could be an interesting option for a Beguiler).

There is also the extraordinary Concentration feat from Complete Adventurer that lets you keep concentration on two spells at once (very useful for illusions), but it can be at high level only (requires 15 skill points in Concentration).

[Flickerdart]

If you don't want people to get saves against your illusions, make illusions people don't want to interact with. I recommend creating people who look ill, or objects with a spider or two sitting on them. Big ones. With little skulls on their backs.

[Roguenewb]

I think beguiller is the secret sauce for this idea. It gives you a stream of all the illusions you ever need to know, as well as a healthy supply of enchantments as well, all combine to do some fun stuff, and armored casting is nice too. Just ignore what the book says, and never get close to anyone, ever.

[OracleofSilence]

I just check, and yes, sonorous hum is persistable, allowing you to turn any Concentration duration spell into a 24 hour spell w/out concentration. In fact, the spell last for 24 hours and 18 seconds (give or take) assuming it is something like Major Image.

Combine with Incantatrix for 2 metamagic-cost free 24 hour Concentration spells. Add metamagic abuse to make the spells even more reliable then a 9th level modified sonorous hum w/out Incantatrix use.

[Flickerdart]

I would actually recommend Wizard/Magelord rather than Beguiler. Lets you prepare a completely innocuous loadout of regular magic, and then convert it to your favourite spells on the fly, plus some sneak attack dice for striking from the shadows. What better way to pretend not being an illusionist than having a spellbook that's visibly devoid of those spells?

[nedz]

Lots of good advice, but bear in mind that you will meet opponents who are immune to your tricks - so you need some other ones.

I quite like sorceror simply because you don't need many spells known to cover your illusions, and you have free reign to choose whatever other spells you might need. Colour Spray and Silent Image will suffice for several levels.

Do try and weigh up how smart your opponents are (or not), there is really nothing like selling a bridge - though you'll probably need Mirage Arcana or better to pull this off. :smallcool:

[Oscredwin]

Know your ranges for detection. Blindsight is usually 30-60' and true seeing is out to 120'. If you're fighting something that can see normally try using illusions that are farther away than they can pierce. Demons are used to only seeing things that that are there, they'll be over confident that the things they see are real. The trick is figuring out illusions that are that far away that are potent enough to impact a battle.

[OracleofSilence]

Even worse then Blindsight is Mindsight/Touchsight. Mindsght lets you tell that those living things don't have brains. And touchsight arguable allows you to interact with those objects, allowing Will Saves.

[Slipperychicken]

how can someone playing as an illusionist attempt to do anything without their DMs instantly knowing what they're trying?

You can't. You do things by notifying the GM what your character's doing, and often what it's thinking. That's how pen and paper RPGs work. If this is a problem in-game, the GM has to learn to separate IC and OOC knowledge.



If you try to act IC without telling your GM, then you didn't do it, and whatever you were attempting will likely blow up in your face.

[Sudain]

Know your ranges for detection. Blindsight is usually 30-60' and true seeing is out to 120'. If you're fighting something that can see normally try using illusions that are farther away than they can pierce. Demons are used to only seeing things that that are there, they'll be over confident that the things they see are real. The trick is figuring out illusions that are that far away that are potent enough to impact a battle.

You bring up a great point. I also noticed that they have long range(400+ feet)

I once read about a story of an illusionist creating an image of a god, who just quietly walked from a dark corner right up to high priest. Ended the encounter right then and there.

[Venger]

Know your ranges for detection. Blindsight is usually 30-60' and true seeing is out to 120'. If you're fighting something that can see normally try using illusions that are farther away than they can pierce. Demons are used to only seeing things that that are there, they'll be over confident that the things they see are real. The trick is figuring out illusions that are that far away that are potent enough to impact a battle.

another especially useful trick when combating enemies with true seeing, such as demons and devils, is cityscape's invisible spell metamagic feat (+0, prereq any other metamagic) on the cloud spells (fog cloud, obscuring mist, etc) that way you can see through it and they can't! all thanks to their true seeing. gets especially nasty with the higher level ones (solid fog,acid fog, freezing fog) but unless you are a wizard you're probably not gonna be able to cast those.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Great way to make something super realistic with illusions the circle spell feat with other casters in your party, cohorts, followers, and hired mages. An example I made was a sorcerer that charmed other wizards and sorcerers with ranks in balance and the circle spell feat, got them into a human pyramid then made an illusion of a pyramid over us.

[aeauseth]

My favorite illusion is a simple wall. For example a wall of stone/iron out on the battlefield. Foes will assume the wall is real (until interacted with). Your party can "see" thru the wall and thus can cast spells or ranged attacks. Foes cannot see thru wall, you have 100% concealment. So you attack them at will. Foes will eventually try to climb over the wall or run around it. When they try to climb over they get a climb/will save. If they fail their save/check then they fall off the illusionary wall prone.

You can also do this in a dungeon, closing off a 10ft hallway with a stone/iron wall. DM will likely grante foes a +4 circumstance bonus when they notice that you can shoot thru the wall. An illusionary wall + arrow slit might resolve this.

Firewalls are good, foes can't see thru (party can), and foes are reluctant to pass thru.

Fogs are bad because foes generally interact with them. Illusionary summons are OK, but they need to be scary and the last thing you want to do is have the illusionary monster attack, the defender gets a save.