Help me beat a Maxxer! v3.5

[Taverick]

I play with a guy who knows too much of the game for his own good, and he does not share his knowledge willingly. When he builds a character he adds so many +0 lvl adj. templates that I'm not sure they're compatible, but this guy has proven in the past that the only thing he fudges are his rolls as a dm to keep the party alive.

So, in a game where he was playing a character alongside mine he built his to do everything mine was supposed to, but better. My character is a Half-orc battle dancer who specializes in grappling. His is a dwarven wizard who doesn't have improved unarmed strike let alone improved grapple (this is the one of the few things he revealed about his character), and has a higher grapple modifier than mine. He claims to have built his character this way because he felt the need to be able to handle himself physically because of another player's character idea, but this guy has a habit of just building characters that makes the rest of the party useless cause he does everything they do only better.

So due to some conflict with the third player mentioned, my character has left the party but the DM is allowing me to bring it back in with some minor alterations since I was really excited to play this concept and I had to take him out of the game really early into the campaign (first 30 minutes). So what I plan to do is remake this character into a grappler that can even out grapple that damn dwarf, and I'd like some help doing this.

I rolled really well on my stats, 18 17 15 14 10 18, and assigned them to best compliment the battle dancer (dragon magazine compendium) with the half-orc's racial adjustments so he has str- 20 dex- 17 con- 15 int- 12 wis- 10 and cha- 16. We play with traits and flaws so here are his feats to lvl 3 which is the level we started at:
Class Bonus- Improved unarmed strike
1st Flaw- Improved Grapple
2nd Flaw- Fear no Binds
1st level- Iron Legs
3rd level- Close-Quarters Fighting

His starting equipment uses the optional price reduction rules and a house ruling that allows shiftweave to be enchanted as armor. His has the Brute Gauntlets, +1 shiftweave and a healing belt (all of which can be found in the magic item compendium). All but the healing belt has had their price reduced to 70% of the market value (for the shiftweave the base item isn't reduced, just the armor enchantment).

The base race, class and feats I'd like to hold off changing, but the gear is free game. What I would really like help with is finding some templates to add to this guy that would help him out. Preferably some +0 lvl adj. that don't hit his cha/int too hard. And as long as he still qualifies for iron legs I'm good, as that feat is key to his build.

I will post the templates I find so they can be scrutinized and debated. Lets beat this guy at his own game.

[imperialspectre]

Assuming all books open, you can't really beat a wizard/cleric/druid at any game without a class of comparable power. This guy appears to be somewhat obnoxious. I would say that you have more of an out-of-game problem than anything else, and you're going to have a hard time just out-optimizing someone who knows "too much of the game for his own good".

[Namfuak]

As a grappler, the first and foremost thing you want to do is increase your size, here is a list of no-cheese RAW-legal ways to do it:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

If you are willing to tolerate cheese, you can take a level in monk, get an amulet of natural attacks +1 (Savage Species) with sizing (MiC), and from there, because a monk's unarmed attack is considered a natural weapon, and a monk's unarmed attack includes his whole body, you can change your size to whatever you want as a swift action. Credit for this trick goes to Emperor Tippy. Quick note- it may be ruled that you are still a medium creature when you do this, so you'll have to talk to your DM.

One other thing to do would be to be a druid and wildshape into a Monstrous Crab (or convince your wizard friend to Polymorph you into one), and then find ways to increase your size from there. That requires HD 7, though.

I agree with imperialspectre though, if you want to beat him for the sake of beating him then something is wrong OOC.

[Taverick]

As a grappler, the first and foremost thing you want to do is increase your size, here is a list of no-cheese RAW-legal ways to do it:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

If you are willing to tolerate cheese, you can take a level in monk, get an amulet of natural attacks +1 (Savage Species) with sizing (MiC), and from there, because a monk's unarmed attack is considered a natural weapon, and a monk's unarmed attack includes his whole body, you can change your size to whatever you want as a swift action. Credit for this trick goes to Emperor Tippy. Quick note- it may be ruled that you are still a medium creature when you do this, so you'll have to talk to your DM.

One other thing to do would be to be a druid and wildshape into a Monstrous Crab (or convince your wizard friend to Polymorph you into one), and then find ways to increase your size from there. That requires HD 7, though.

I agree with imperialspectre though, if you want to beat him for the sake of beating him then something is wrong OOC.

I'm using the battle dancer class cause it gives the unarmed strike that a monk gets, but with a full base attack bonus instead of 3/4 HD. So already got that covered. As for the amulet of natural attack from the savage species, already thought of that, but cannot reduce it to be affordable with our starting funds ruling (most expensive item can only be 1/2 staring funds, and everything else must be 1/2 that. So at 3rd level with 2700gp those limits are 1350gp and 750gp).

And yes, there is an issue OOC. I am fully aware of this and have tried to address it in the past. He just shrugs it off and says it's all legal and that I'm fully capable of doing the same things. I have tried to find another group, but have no luck with it. So I'm just going to bite the bullet and take back my role in the party.

[Morph Bark]

And yes, there is an issue OOC. I am fully aware of this and have tried to address it in the past. He just shrugs it off and says it's all legal and that I'm fully capable of doing the same things. I have tried to find another group, but have no luck with it. So I'm just going to bite the bullet and take back my role in the party.

Have you brought it up with your DM though? He might take a look at it and agree that this player shouldn't try to take combat roles away from others. There's so much a wizard can do, he could easily do the things the party members don't do or focus on. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Rubik]

The best grapplers are those that can grapple without being grappled themselves. That basically means summoners. What about a druid, wizard, or shaper psion? They can all summon and/or create grapplers on the battlefield. You don't have to have a higher grapple score than HIM so much as a higher grapple score than what you're grappling. And if he gets uppity hit him with a Ray of Stupidity or five.

[Eldariel]

How casting are you willing to be? 'cause magic must defeat magic. If you want to beat his check you'll need to be a spellcaster yourself. Archivist, Cleric and Artificer are probably the top options for this. Cleric in particular, with DMM: Persistent stuff would probably work out.

Now, mind, this person you're speaking of is probably capable of going two steps further; from the sound of it he's a TGDer so his knowledge of the game mechanics is very high up there. However, most people stay away from anything enabling higher level spells on level 1 mostly out of principle since that tends to lead to ridiculous stuff.


Anyways, if you want to do what you set out to do, something has to give. What will it be?

[Taverick]

Have you brought it up with your DM though? He might take a look at it and agree that this player shouldn't try to take combat roles away from others. There's so much a wizard can do, he could easily do the things the party members don't do or focus on. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

The DM has been playing with him MUCH longer than me, and she can't seem to stop him either. But that isn't the point of this thread. Thats something that we have been addressing for a while. The point of this thread is to build a grappler who is smashingly awesome to beat the wizard.

[Snowbluff]

Totemist with the Girallon Arms Soulbind you a large Grapple Bonuses. A short 2-3 level dip and some feats (for Extra Essentia) can get your far, considering max Essentia investitures are 8ased on total character levels.

[VGLordR2]

If you want to really get cheesy and abandon all pretense of roleplay, you could be a Water Orc with the Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre templates. This will net you +20 to your Strength and Large size for just +1 LA. I'll bet that could out-grapple your friend's silly Wizard.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

You have two problems, the first is that you have a more skilled optimizer in your group that refuses to share his knowledge the second is that your trying to beat a caster with a mundane build. Seriously, it doesn't work even if you create a extremely focused character he'll beat you at your niche by learning a few new spells (assuming he can't do it with his old standbys.

It really is a huge jerk move to hide his optimization techniques from the table. If you must beat him make a wizard with spellcraft and all the knowledge skills. demand a Spellcraft check to identify the spells he casts and knowledge checks to identify his templates. Report back to us ad we'll tell you if his template stacking is legit or not. Then we'll arm you with a build that can beat him, but that build will be from a Big 6 class and it may be his build, but with grappling feats.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He's being a jerk. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it should be used. Every optimizer on this forum (except possibly a few banned users who shall not be named that hate anything less than high-op) is willing to tone it down.

Worse, this guy is using his knowledge to play a wizard. The easiest class to use if you want to overshadow everything else.

Kick him out if you can. Of course, only if he's overshadowing the group, not just you. But if he's overshadowing the ENTIRE GROUP? Yeah.

However, you have to abandon this build if you want to be competitive. Half-orc battledancer? Really? Is half-orc for fluff, or for a strength bonus? Never take half-orc for crunch reasons. Crunch-wise, half-orc sucks. You'd get way more mileage out of a human with his bonus feat used on Jotunbrud. If you want to go fully fully legal and the DM hasn't let him ignore fluff prerequisites and you aren't playing in FR, be a water orc instead. Or even just a regular orc.

Buy Tome of Battle. Use Tome of Battle. Drop the battledancer like it's dead weight, because it is. Maybe one or two levels of it. Use Warblade. Dip barbarian. Take Extra Rage. Dip totemist. Shape and invest essentia into Girallon Arms. Maybe even pay for a permanencied Enlarge Person. For even more power, instead of warblade, use druid. Wild Shape into things like big bears. Use Wild Armor or Wilding Clasps to help. Remember, Wild Shape lasts your level in hours. Take Natural Spell, of course.

[Rubik]

A half giant psychic warrior/totemist 2 is also a good way to roflstomp things if you absolutely must grapple things yourself. Using the Expansion power you count as Huge for the purpose of grappling at level 2. It only goes up from there.

[Yawgmoth]

magic must defeat magic. http://i.imgur.com/mhGVw.jpg

One more thing! Here's how you "defeat" this guy. Say "Hey, dude, you know how you always make ridiculous characters? Stop that. You're killing everyone else's fun and if you keep doing it you can play somewhere else with other people."

[Acanous]

Water Orc with the Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre templates. Barbarian/Totemist/PsiWar.
You should never lose a grapple again, being that your grapple mod will be higher than anything doable without an 8th level spell, or without a polymorph with more HD than he has current access to.

[GreenSerpent]

It really is a huge jerk move to hide his optimization techniques from the table. If you must beat him make a wizard with spellcraft and all the knowledge skills. demand a Spellcraft check to identify the spells he casts and knowledge checks to identify his templates. Report back to us ad we'll tell you if his template stacking is legit or not. Then we'll arm you with a build that can beat him, but that build will be from a Big 6 class and it may be his build, but with grappling feats.

This. The Playground will help you here.

I'd suggest going with Illumian Wizard/Dragonfire Adept 1 (w/ Draconic Knowledge invocation for +5 to Knowledge checks)/??? with really, really high INT. But then I'm not a really good optimiser. Perhaps someone can give him a better build?

[VGLordR2]

If the DM knows about this problem, just ask her what build the other player uses. It is the DM's job to make sure that the players are balanced. If one player decides that he's better than everyone else, he should get the boot or hand over his notes.

[Mnemnosyne]

As others have said, the root of your problem is an OOC thing and whether rules legal or not, if he's intentionally building characters to steal combat roles from other party members, he's being an ass.

That said, if your group is fine with it and you want to beat him in this particular aspect of this character...then, hm. Do an early entry trick for Arcane Hierophant is probably good. That way you get druid powers, wildshaping, and you get to throw wizard stuff on top of it. Druid also gives you access to Kelpstrand, one of the best anything for grappling around. Boost your caster level and you can get a really high grapple bonus out of that. You can add Totemist too to really increase grapple checks further, but that's probably a bad move because it means sacrificing CL and getting almost nothing but grapple in exchange.

For specific build (and this is going to depend a lot on your DM's rulings of early entry tricks) you could take Druid 5/Wiz 1/Arcane Hierophant 10, with Versatile Spellcaster as one of your first level feats. If you interpret the RAW of versatile spellcaster favorably, the druid's spontaneous casting allows you to take the feat, but it's not restricted to druid spells, therefore when you take wiz 1 you can combine 1st level spells into 2nd level spells, thus giving you the necessary entry requirements for arcane hierophant. Another option is Sanctum Spell (which works well with druids since you can then use the Acorn of Far Travel trick to always be in your sanctum).

If you go the Arcane Hierophant route, you can also do what Hand of Vecna suggested, and get high knowledge/spellcraft checks and try to figure out what he's doing.

[GreenSerpent]

I hate to suggest it but... if it is absolutely necessary to show him up, I utter the two near-forbidden words.

PLANAR SHEPHARD. Combine it with Kelpstrand.

Good luck getting anywhere at all for him.

[Taverick]

Sorry, should have mentioned this, but he is NOT using magic to buff his grapple. It's all feats, templates and stuff like that. I know it's weird but that is one of the things he gave up.

As for kicking him out of the group... we can't. The group meets up because of him, as he runs the late night for the gaming store.

I used half-orc for some roleplay flavoring, and the battle dancer class as well. Of course, the entire character concept is based off the Battle dancer class and the Iron Legs feat. So those are two things I am extremely reluctant to give up.

I do not want to use magic with this, as least not from a spellcasting class. Magic items are a go, but remember that I only have access to 2700gp, and can only use half of that for the most expensive item. So a permified enlarge person is out of the question.

As for water orc and half-minotaur, where do I find these?

[GreenSerpent]

It is very, very hard - if not downright impossible - to beat a magic user without resorting to magic as well. And even then it's hard.

We could do a whole lot more to help if we knew what templates and feats he was using. including working out if it was rules-legal. That would enable us to counter him.

Water Orc is in Unearthed Arcana I believe.

[Ballista]

As for water orc and half-minotaur, where do I find these?

Water Orc is in Unearthed Arcana
Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre are in Dragon #313 I think... Darn Dragon Magazine

EDIT: 1/3 Swordsaged?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

There's a build at the bottom that is passably okay against some casters. Look into that.

[HeadlessMermaid]

1) Where is Iron Legs from, and why is it so desirable?

2) I'm afraid your build is illegal. Fear No Binds has a prerequisite of 6 ranks in Escape Artist, you can't take it before 3rd level. And you can't swap it with Close-Quarters Fighting, because that one has a BAB +3 prerequisite.

3) What's this business about the wizard's LA +0 templates? Without ruling out the possibility that there are tons of these in Dragon Magazines that I'm not aware of, I'm tempted to think that he's illegally using CR +0 templates instead. Which is a totally different thing, and totally not allowed. (Unless he's into tauric silliness territory. He's not 4-legged, is he?)

And come to think of it, are you absolutely sure he's a dwarf? Could he be a xvart? (That's a small creature with the annoying feature of a negative LA. It actually has LA -2.) Maybe he's using that, describing it as a dwarf, and effectively getting free LA+2 from other templates.


P.S. I know you don't want to hear that OOC problems can't be solved IC. But... they can't, really.

[Taverick]

It is very, very hard - if not downright impossible - to beat a magic user without resorting to magic as well. And even then it's hard.

We could do a whole lot more to help if we knew what templates and feats he was using. including working out if it was rules-legal. That would enable us to counter him.

Water Orc is in Unearthed Arcana I believe.

Like I said, he didn't reveal all the templates and feats he had, just a few things he didn't have. Though he did mention something about the earth sense tree.

As for the water orc, besides the swim speed how is it different from a normal orc? I see people mentioning that water orc, combined with half-ogre and half-minotaur will give a +20 str for only a +1 lvl adj. From the books and magazines I have I'm only getting a +12 str. So what am I missing about Water Orc?

[Taverick]

1) Where is Iron Legs from, and why is it so desirable?

2) I'm afraid your build is illegal. Fear No Binds has a prerequisite of 6 ranks in Escape Artist, you can't take it before 3rd level. And you can't swap it with Close-Quarters Fighting, because that one has a BAB +3 prerequisite.

3) What's this business about the wizard's LA +0 templates? Without ruling out the possibility that there are tons of these in Dragon Magazines that I'm not aware of, I'm tempted to think that he's illegally using CR +0 templates instead. Which is a totally different thing, and totally not allowed. (Unless he's into tauric silliness territory. He's not 4-legged, is he?)

And come to think of it, are you absolutely sure he's a dwarf? Could he be a xvart? (That's a small creature with the annoying feature of a negative LA. It actually has LA -2.) Maybe he's using that, describing it as a dwarf, and effectively getting free LA+2 from other templates.


P.S. I know you don't want to hear that OOC problems can't be solved IC. But... they can't, really.

Iron Legs is from Kingdoms of Kalamar: stealth and style pg 65. It allows you to use double your str bonus on unarmed strikes made with the legs, a +2 on perform dance and forced march checks, and allows the character to run full-out for up to an hour before needing a ten minute break.

The feat list I have from crystal keep listed Fear No Binds as only requiring 4 ranks in escape artist, and I just downloaded the dragon magazine to check and I see you're right. So I will replace that with another feat.

He said he was playing a dwarf, but he was small sized, so he's probably playing that -2 lvl adj race. He's mentioned it in the past so I wouldn't put it past him.

And yes, I fully realize that you can't solve OOC problems IC. That is not my goal here. My goal is to take back my role in the party by using his methods.

[VGLordR2]

The Half-Minotaur causes your size category to increase. This brings the normal +8 to Strength from an increased size category.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Though he did mention something about the earth sense tree.
That doesn't sound like the most optimized grappler... That's 3 feats for +1 to attack and damage as long as both you and your opponent are touching the ground. :smallconfused:


As for the water orc, besides the swim speed how is it different from a normal orc? I see people mentioning that water orc, combined with half-ogre and half-minotaur will give a +20 str for only a +1 lvl adj. From the books and magazines I have I'm only getting a +12 str. So what am I missing about Water Orc?
It's a +2 LA total.
Half-ogre and half-minotaur may increase the base creature's size, which adds additional strength. If you start as a medium race, you end up large and with an extra +8 to Str.


Iron Legs is from Kingdoms of Kalamar: stealth and style pg 65. It allows you to use double your str bonus on unarmed strikes made with the legs, a +2 on perform dance and forced march checks, and allows the character to run full-out for up to an hour before needing a ten minute break.
Ah, I see. It doesn't apply to grapple checks, then, if I understand correctly. Only grapple damage.

[Ballista]

Quickly!
Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Feral, Incarnate Construct Warforged
+22 Str +10 Con -2 Dex -10 Int -6 Cha -(correct me if I'm wrong) Overrall with a +1 LA
plus you get a boatload of extra abilities

[VGLordR2]

I just realized that you could use the Xvart as a base creature before applying Half Ogre/Minotaur. You would still end up with +20 Strength, but the Level Adjustment would be zero.

[Spuddles]

If you want to really get cheesy and abandon all pretense of roleplay, you could be a Water Orc with the Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre templates. This will net you +20 to your Strength and Large size for just +1 LA. I'll bet that could out-grapple your friend's silly Wizard.

Awww yeah best templates ever.

Note that half ogre does not increase your LA if you are already large. Water orc gets +4 str and +2 con. The 3.0 dragon magazine wild template gives you +2 str for no LA increase

Grab a level of barbarian and the reckless rage feat. Grab another level of psy war, practiced manifester, and the enlarge power. At ecl 3 you will have 48 str and be huge. Take the flaw musclebound. Congrats, you have +33 to grapple

[Ballista]

It's a +2 LA total.

It's only +1 LA since the Half-Minotaur template has already made the medium sized creature large, the Half-Ogre template cannot increase the size category, leaving the original LA

[HeadlessMermaid]

It's only +1 LA since the Half-Minotaur template has already made the medium sized creature large, the Half-Ogre template cannot increase the size category, leaving the original LA
I thought that when a half-ogre (or half-minotaur) doesn't increase a size category, it leaves the original CR, but the LA is still +1. Am I mistaken?

[Ballista]

I thought that when a half-ogre (or half-minotaur) doesn't increase a size category, it leaves the original CR, but the LA is still +1. Am I mistaken?

I am now derp... screen was misaligned, and now I see that I was reading off the wrong line... So yes, it would be +2 LA

Even more of a reason to play incarnate construct!

Edit: Wait! Half-Ogre does indeed leave the LA the same as the base creature, so as long as you apply Half Ogre after Half Minotaur, it's still only +1 LA

[Spuddles]

I have a hard copy of DR 313, and what I believe is a copypaste error has the LA rules the same as the LA rules.

[Ballista]

I have a hard copy of DR 313, and what I believe is a copypaste error has the LA rules the same as the LA rules.

Wait... what?

[Spuddles]

What part of my tautology do you find confusing? :smallwink:

[Taverick]

Awww yeah best templates ever.

Note that half ogre does not increase your LA if you are already large. Water orc gets +4 str and +2 con. The 3.0 dragon magazine wild template gives you +2 str for no LA increase

Grab a level of barbarian and the reckless rage feat. Grab another level of psy war, practiced manifester, and the enlarge power. At ecl 3 you will have 48 str and be huge. Take the flaw musclebound. Congrats, you have +33 to grapple

What magazine is the wild template in?

[Ballista]

Wait a second... grappler thread, and no mention of Reaping Mauler? What is this? It's bonus to grapples is pretty low, but who doesn't want to render people unconscious?

Edit: Sudden realization... Have fun defeating a bunch of Gargantuan opponents with your bare hands :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Wait a second... grappler thread, and no mention of Reaping Mauler? What is this? It's bonus to grapples is pretty low, but who doesn't want to render people unconscious?

Clever Wrestling is a travesty against anyone who wants to grapple.

[Gavinfoxx]

Reaping Mauler is a REALLY REALLY bad class for grappling.

It's a very buggy class, reliant on a very buggy feat.

It's buggy in the 'Computer Bug' sense of the term -- ie it doesn't work properly for what it was intended to do.

You should REALLY REALLY read that black blood cultist manual I mentioned earlier!

[Ballista]

Clever Wrestling is a travesty against anyone who wants to grapple.

Yeah, the requirements for it is actually impossible for the current race/template selection. Maybe I should change the text to blue...

[VGLordR2]

What magazine is the wild template in?

Wild (and the other racial variants) are in Dragon Magazine #306, starting on page 60.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Wait a second... grappler thread, and no mention of Reaping Mauler?
-loses all class features when becomes large or bigger
-DCs based on wisdom
-very good at escaping grapples, does nothing to improve actual grappling

no thanks.
5 levels of (insert class that's good at grappling here) will do better

BTW, nobody mentioned Factotum yet.
They get INT as a bonus on strength (and dexterity) checks at third level. Depending on your INT, this could be a very good investment

[GreenSerpent]

Ask him for a physical description of his character - or write down any remarkable feats (spell-like abilities, immunities) he does. Then perhaps we can gleam something from this.

And yes, it sounds like he might be slipping in a CR+1 template somewhere.

[ILM]

There's a lot of great suggestions for levels and PrCs, but if I'm reading correctly the players are level 3. The wizard has been stacking templates, and it he knows what he's doing he only has +0 ones (or at least, the net result is +0). Since he's a wizard, I'll also assume that the templates provide no net penalties to Int. Thing is, right there, there aren't all that many +0 LA templates (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List). I think a few are missing (I can think of dragonborn, magic-blooded, and unseelie fey). I can't think of many combinations that would help his grapple mod without hurting his Int without negative-LA templates...

Tamplates usually come with quirks in appearance (such as having 4 legs and horns...). You could maybe ask for a detailed description of his character to your DM, might give us some pointers.

Fact is, the only tools the wizard has at level 3 to jack up his grapple score - if he has no grapple-related feats - are Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength, or an appropriate Alter Self perhaps. Have you seen him grapple stuff in-game?

I mean, think of it this way: how would the Playground build an ECL 3 Dwarven Wizard with the highest Grapple score? That should give you an idea of what you're up against. What's your Grapple mod with your current character? Frow what you've said, I'd guess your grapple check mod is +8 (+3 BAB, +5 Str). I'd guess his is around 15 (assuming 18 Str for +4, +1 BAB, +4 size after Enlarge Person, +2 enhancement to Str with Bull's Strength, and +4 morale from the gloves). I'd point out that he needs 2 rounds to buff and that his gloves would only provide that bonus once per day.

[killianh]

personally I'm better at general rounded builds than something as particular as grappling, but I can offer some light on the template side of things.

http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf

that is another template list to work with for optimization, but it has no 0 la templates.

I'm thinking that he's not a dwarf. When I played a changeling not to long back I told everyone I was an old man, and it wasn't till much farther along when we had to use true seeing that the rest of the group found out.

That said the half-orge water orc builds that have been mentioned would probably be best using either monk for the free grapple feats and sizing trick or barb rage

EDIT: Forgot to add this:

http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm

its an o.k character builder, but more importantly it has a pretty much full race listing to help with the build

[Soranar]

The base race, class and feats I'd like to hold off changing, but the gear is free game.

Sorry but there's only so much we can do with your build. And any gear your character gets to increase his capacity could also be taken by your min/maxer friend, meaning whatever we come up with will be meaningless.

What I would really like help with is finding some templates to add to this guy that would help him out.

Templates are often not worth the LA. I would be careful with that, as for the LA 0 templates, none will increase your STR.

Finally, if you want to out grapple a mage, be a tashalatora monk/psychic warrior.

[Vizzerdrix]

Quickly!
Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Feral, Incarnate Construct Warforged
+22 Str +10 Con -2 Dex -10 Int -6 Cha -(correct me if I'm wrong) Overrall with a +1 LA
plus you get a boatload of extra abilities


I just realized that you could use the Xvart as a base creature before applying Half Ogre/Minotaur. You would still end up with +20 Strength, but the Level Adjustment would be zero.

Hmm... what would a combination of these two get him? Could an Effigy Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Feral, Incarnate Construct Xvart be used as the base critter? oooh! if so, then into Necropolitan for some tasty Spellstitched action.

[Eldariel]

Hmm... what would a combination of these two get him? Could an Effigy Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior, Feral, Incarnate Construct Xvart be used as the base critter? oooh! if so, then into Necropolitan for some tasty Spellstitched action.

While at it, go Tauric and profit from your huge stack of stupid templates :/

[Vizzerdrix]

While at it, go Tauric and profit from your huge stack of stupid templates :/

Isn't that what he's going for? :smallconfused:

[Eldariel]

Isn't that what he's going for? :smallconfused:

Tauric basically removes all the LA from the animal side so you can stack like +60 LA worth of templates on an ECL 3 character. It's on a tad different scale from mere Incarnate Construct.

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh gods! :eek:

err... I think I have to go look something up now :smallsmile:

[Musco]

Sorry in advance for the long post, it kinda comes naturally about this type of thing (I'm in Law).

From what I've gathered, this breaks down into three separate issues:
1) Optimizing your grappler to ridiculously high values, so you can shove it up his;
2) His build being secret from everyone else, so no one can actually understand what he does and if there's no illegal cheesy things involved;
3) Him being a jerk.

Let's solve them separately, shall we?

1) There was already a lot of help here (heck, you could probably grapple his wizard into unconsciousness and coup-de-grace him to make a statement - though he'd probably come back with a vengeance, not a really good idea in the long run). There was also the other aspect, that meant that, if you really want to one-up him, you'll need to change builds, so if you just want to take your role back, do the tricks suggested. If you want to one-up him... you're gonna have some problems. Even if you decided to switch builds entirely just to outjerk him, you'd still be a jerk yourself for taking his role in it, and since you fully acknowledge he probably has a vastly superior knowledge of the rules than you, you'd still be hopelessly outgunned, because he'd adapt to your build (or even improvise with some known cheesy tactics), and you'd need the Playground help to get up to speed, meaning you'd always be lagging behind him, and never succeed in one-upping him at all. In the interest of keeping playing and not being a jerk like the jerk you hate so much, I'd simply spring for getting my mojo back and out-grappling him into oblivion.

2) Number 2 is really, REALLY easy to solve, unless you DM is ALSO a big, fat jerk {Scrubbed}. First of all, templates should be PHISICALLY VISIBLE most of the time, and/or at least allow for knowledge checks. Same for techniques he's using in a style you're familiar with (so, grappling-oriented or combat-oriented feats). Then again, you're a fellow player, so you SHOULD be able to have access to his sheet if you think his build is cheesy and wants to cross-check the source-books (the DM could be biased, or even sweet-talked into allowing some cheese there). If he hides his notes because of RP reasons (real name, background, etc.), you should STILL have access to the basic crunch of it, which would be more than enough (and yes, there's not a chance in Hell the DM won't have his full sheet lying around somewhere, it's her job after all).

3) Talking outside the game did not work, it seems, and from what you've said, he's been playing longest than you, so solving it in-game (coup-de-gracing him in his sleep, which would turn into a character war, as he builds a new one, kills you, then you build a new one and kills him, etc, etc, etc...) would result in either the group disbanding, or you being kicked out (and in both cases, you'd STILL be at least an equal jerk, in the eyes of everyone else, and not able to play since you said yourself you can't find a group). So yeah, this one does not seem to have a solution unless you can actually rally every other player on the table to go for banning him (screw the late-night special at the store, play at someone's table and be done with it, volunteer yours, if need be - if people won't rally when having a back-up gameplace all ready, it's probably a problem with YOU, not the whole group), or simply accept he is what he is and either suck it up or leave.

4) There's also another aspect/solution, that could work on the long run, provided that your group SEEMS to agree he's rather a jerk, but not letting it show yet, or shrugging it off because "its just one guy". You could simply ask the playground for help, and cheese up. Let his character be, but build the most powerful, strongly imbalanced thing possible, and TEAM UP with him. You two will outshine the group SO MUCH that THEN they'll probably start to get really bored. When they get vocal about it, volunteer to tone it down, share your notes (OF COURSE you realized you were supposed to behave like him in this aspect, didn't you?), etc. In the meantime, get a new gaming-place ready. When he won't do the same, THEN rally them all against him, and ban his ass.

[Cor1]

I'd begin building a King of Smack-like just to show him up. He grapples things... so that you can kill them.
I figured a method to get 144 attacks per round with a Psion 17. It's easier to do with two levels of PsyWar and the rest in full manifesting.

My method : have two Psicrystals, Soul Crystal, Astral Construct, Metamorphosis, Delay Power, Chain Power and Psychic Reformation.
Manifest Fission shared with your psicrystals. Have the clone and all psicrystals use a Soul Crystal to summon Astral Construct. Have you, your clone, all 4 psicrystals and all 6 astral constructs manifest Metamorphosis to turn into Thri-kreens. Now manifest Delayed Chain Psychic Reformation. At the start of your next turn, every "Thri-kreen" will have Multiattack, Rapidstrike x2 and Improved Rapidtrike x2.
That makes three attacks per claw. With 48 claws in play, 144 attacks.
Use White Raven's War Master Charge (UMD a Martial Script or something) to make everyone attack at the same time.
You may need attack enhancement powers. Metaphysical Claw for enhancement bonus, Offensive Precognition for more to-hit, Offensive Prescience for more damage.

If you do it right, you can also be a better magic-user than his grapple-oriented wizard will ever be. With a recharge method (all of two feats) you'll do it longer than any Wizard.

[VGLordR2]

You said he was a level three Wizard, right? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Grapplemancer_(3.5e_Optimized_Build))

[ILM]

I figured a method to get 144 attacks per round with a Psion 17.


here are his feats to lvl 3 which is the level we started at[...]

The base race, class and feats I'd like to hold off changing, but the gear is free game.

Does anyone read OPs anymore?

[Togo]

One point to reflect on. The chances of his 'secret' build being entirely RAW is close to zero. You can't match it without knowing what the DM will and won't allow. His advantage isn't rules knowledge, which everyone can get pretty easily, but DM knowledge, which is much more powerful. You need to talk to the DM, and get his advice.

Since noone's mentioned it, a single level dip into Marshal (miniature's handbook) will increase your grapple checks by your chrarisma bonus.

[Cor1]

Yeah, well, buy enough Soul Crystals off that Psion and go to town. They're about 1800 gp each for ML 20, covered in Quintessence for conservation. You need one of Astral Construct, and at least one of Psychic Reformation and one of Metamorphosis, plus whatever else you'd need to buy buffing time. Minimum : 5400gp, that's the full WBL at level 4.
(But then you can turn into five improved-rapid-striking-dragons, so getting more wealth should be no problem.)

Method :
1. Turn into Dragon.
2. Summon Astral Construct.
2. Have the Astral Construct turn into Dragon.
3. Have Dragon PsyRef itself with Multiattack and Rapidstrike x2, for Claws and Wings.
3. Have Dragon'ed Astral Construct summon an Astral Construct.
4. While there are power points left in Metamorphosis and PsyRef crystals, go to 2.
There should be about enough for five, so that's Dragon!you and four Dragon!AstralConstructs, with the four having claw/claw/claw/claw/wing/wing/wing/wing/bite/tail attacks per round.

That's one way to do it with gear alone, doing 40+ attacks per round with 4th level WBL.

Otherwise, here follows the Strength Wizard build, level-by-level. That one's not mine, can't remember where it's from. I vaguely remember finding it on /tg/.
Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple bonus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person, and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bull**** as a Remorhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.


tl;dr : how to build a Wizard who grapples anything level-appropriate better than everyone else. Probably can be done with a Psion too.

[Answerer]

I'd kick the guy out if he didn't cut that crap out immediately.

[Zubrowka74]

You mentioned he plays a Wizard optimized for grappling but doesn't use magic ? Then why be a wizard ?

[Morph Bark]

I know at least one of Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre are LA+0 if you are already Large, but if it is true for both, then be a Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 2+/Ardent X with Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Practiced Manifester and Expanded Knowledge (expansion) for feats. Get the Girallon Arms soulmeld and bind it. Become Gargantuan (or Huge pre-level 7). Get +12 racial Str, another +6 from Mountain Rage and +4 from Expansion for a total of +22 (+20 pre-level 7). With an 18 starting strength, you'll end up with 38 Str for a modifier of +14, so your Grapple modifier will be + 14 (Str) + 12 (size, 8 pre-level 7) + 4 (Improved Grapple) + 4 (iirc, Girallon Arms) for a total of +34 (+32 pre-level 7). This requires you to be at least level 5 though (4 class levels, plus LA+1).

If he didn't use any spells to get a high Grapple modifier though, then I'd ask to look at his feats (or at least that the DM get a look at his feats), especially if Dragon material is not allowed.

[Spuddles]

I'd kick the guy out if he didn't cut that crap out immediately.

It doesn't seem like that's an option for this group, as the problem player runs the hobby store they game in.

[Answerer]

It doesn't seem like that's an option for this group, as the problem player runs the hobby store they game in.
Oh god, I'd missed that.

Yeah, that's an awful situation. I'd find something – anything – else. Including a new store, if I could (I know, probably can't, but still). Because I wouldn't trust the guy in the least.

It seems to me that this guy is basically abusive. He abuses his greater amount of time spent with the books, he abuses the authority of owning the store where you play to force you to allow his crap, etc. etc. Playing games with the store owner can be great fun if they're cool, but this guy isn't.

[demigodus]

Out of curiosity, what is the wizard's grapple mod?

Having a number to beat could make beating it easier....

[Taverick]

Should probably clarify things for the solutions people are posting, as some are helpful, some aren't.

First off, we are ECL 3, so any suggestions for anything above that aren't much help at this time. Sure, great plans for the future, but not so much now. And since we are ECL 3 we only have 2700gp to use for funds. And with our rules on starting funds I can only use half that for the most expensive item, and then half of that for the rest. Meaning I can have one item that is no more than 1350gp, and everything else must be under 750gp.

When it comes to building characters and sharing knowledge, yes this guy is a bit of a jerk and he even acknowledges that. The most he'll do is give you a huge file full of PDFs and stuff and say that everything he uses is in there. Other than that he's sort of an okay guy. He just gets carried away with his characters. He doesn't own the store, just runs the late night gaming since he's known the owners forever and they trust him.

I'm not building this character to beat his character, just out do it in the original way that I had planned to shine. I had built a grappler and when his turned out to have a higher grapple bonus than my +12, it really irked me. Since this isn't the first, or the 100th time he's done this. So I decided to ask for help from you guys to pull together all the knowledge out there to pretty much do the same thing he does to his characters for mine.

I don't know his feats and build, and when he grappled another character (another player was trying to get into the party, being an ass about it to the point where everything he said was an insult and it got to the point where the dwarf was dragging the pally outside to beat him up. I actually ended up doing the same thing to the pally) I didn't hear the exact number, but the math ended up being higher than my +12, without him casting any spells. Now this isn't to say that he never used magic, there were a few sleep spells, color sprays and an earthen grasp in there, but he didn't noticeably use any spells when grappling. One thing this guy really favors is using magic items and obscure variants. I do know he was using the staff of the magi wizard variant, and that he didn't have improved grapple cause every time he initiated the check he provoked. as for anything else, we only play on sundays so I won't be able to get any more information til then.

I'm using the battle dancer class cause of the full bab, free improved unarmed strike and increased unarmed strike damage. I am specifically staying away from monk, even the chaotic monk variant, because of an argument with the guy playing the ******* pally that no other class can keep up with a monk in terms of grappling. I also don't want to play any type of caster class because thats pretty much all the guy playing the dwarf does and I'd like to prove it can be done without casting spells. Magic items are fine, but I'd like to prove that full melee characters aren't as inferior as most people make them out to be. As for the templates and stuff, I'm just tired of him having all these special abilities and when we ask about them he just tells us to look it up ourselves.

Did I miss anything?

[Cor1]

---snip---
I also don't want to play any type of caster class because thats pretty much all the guy playing the dwarf does and I'd like to prove it can be done without casting spells. Magic items are fine, but I'd like to prove that full melee characters aren't as inferior as most people make them out to be. As for the templates and stuff, I'm just tired of him having all these special abilities and when we ask about them he just tells us to look it up ourselves.

Did I miss anything?

In DnD, whatever it is you do : you won't be better at it than a caster, ever. Sorry, the system can't help it, it's designed that way.

So I can't help you here. Refluff Psionics to be "naturally-occuring buffs" and do your Grapplemancy as a Psychic Warrior?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright, to beat a monk at grappling is super easy. Just make a psychic warrior. or totemist. Or druid. Or for something non-magical, anything with full base attack bonus. Swordsage can also grapple without grappling, using Setting Sun Throw maneuvers to grab and throw people like in judo.

You can still get the damn battledancer flavor with only a level or two for the free Improved Unarmed Strike. Then go any of the classes I listed above. Or any class other than totemist, with one level of totemist on top. Hell, battledancer with one level of totemist would still be better by a good margin. But the best build? Battledancer 1/totemist 1/psychic warrior 1, then either go druid or continue psychic warrior.

[HeadlessMermaid]

OK, let's sum up the xvart/half-this/half-that combo silliness:

Race: Xvart (small humanoid, LA -2):
+2 dex, -2 str, -2 con, speed 30

Template 1: Half-ogre (-->medium humanoid and giant, LA +1):
+8 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, NA +2, +10 speed

Template 2: Half-minotaur (-->large humanoid and giant, LA +1):
+12 str, -2 dex, +6 con, -2 int, +2 wis, NA +2, +10 speed

Total (LA +0, so you can have 3 class levels):
str +18, dex -2, con +6, int -4, wis +2, cha -2, speed 50, natural armor +4

So, with your rolls, let's say you choose:

str 18 +18 = 36
dex 17 -2 = 15
con 15 +6 = 21
int 14 -4 = 10
wis 10 +2 = 12
cha 18 -2 = 16

Grapple check: +3 BAB +13 str +4 impr.grapple +4 size = +24

And let's say you're a Battle Dancer 3 (I believe this is not the best route, unless you're in love with the flavor - which admittedly is great. But it's your character. :smallsmile:)

attack bonus: +13 str -1 size +3 BAB = +15
AC: 10 +2 dex + 4 cha -1 size +4 Nat. = 19
Touch AC = 15
Flat-Footed AC = 17
Fort/Ref/Will : +6 / +5 / +2

Pros: You have great str (attack/damage), con and grapple check.

Cons: Your defenses are bad. You are an ugly monstrosity that can be easily spot. Social interactions may be a problem. Expect to be targeted in combat all the time. Finding something to do outside combat seems difficult. You probably have no idea how to roleplay this character.

Finally, your disagreement with the pally doesn't exactly end in your favor: it's the template-stacking cheese that makes this build good at grappling, your chosen class has nothing to do with it. A monk or a fighter would work in the exact same way.

Counter-argument to some of the cons: If the DM lets the dwarf (?) wizard play with a crapload of templates and still look like an incospicuous dwarf, he should allow the same for you. (Except that you're Large.)

[Taverick]

Finally, your disagreement with the pally doesn't exactly end in your favor: it's the template-stacking cheese that makes this build good at grappling, your chosen class has nothing to do with it. A monk or a fighter would work in the exact same way.

The argument with the pally was actually settled already, and I did win. I proved that other classes can keep up with monks in terms of grappling and not with the battle dancer class. I actually used a barbarian/fighter example for that. I just still wanted to keep away from monk.

[HeadlessMermaid]

The argument with the pally was actually settled already, and I did win. I proved that other classes can keep up with monks in terms of grappling and not with the battle dancer class. I actually used a barbarian/fighter example for that. I just still wanted to keep away from monk.
Oh, OK.

So... Does the above build suit you? Is the grapple check good enough? Do you find the race or the templates (or the combo) too odd? Is there anything else amiss?

[VGLordR2]

Note that HeadlessMermaid forgot to add BAB to the Grapple bonus. This means that the bonus should be +24, assuming you stick with Battledancer.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

My attempt at a very strong full melee grappler.
It's gonna be cheesy, but hopefully you can get some inspiration

Goliath, Half Minotaur, Lolth Touched (LA +3, may be reduced within 20)
Starting Strength 40 (18+4goliath+12minotaur+6lolth)
Starting Intelligence 12 (14-2)
needs item:
belt of magnificence with wilding clasps
inherent bonus to Strength +5
Inherent bonus to INT +4

Barbarian bear totem 5 (+4 feat, +4 class)
Factotum 3 (int as a modifier)
Bear Warrior 10 (+20 STR)
Warshaper 2 (+4 STR)
BaB:18

feats that you want:
Animal Devotion (+8 STR)
reckless rage (+2 STR)

Final STR score:
50+6+20+4+2+8=90 (+40)
INT:
12+4+6=22 (+6)

Grapple modifier:
18+40+6+4+4+4 = 76

[VGLordR2]

My attempt at a very strong full melee grappler.
It's gonna be cheesy, but hopefully you can get some inspiration

Goliath, Half Minotaur, Lolth Touched (LA +3, may be reduced within 20)
Starting Strength 40 (18+4goliath+12minotaur+6lolth)
Starting Intelligence 12 (14-2)
needs item:
belt of magnificence with wilding clasps
inherent bonus to Strength +5
Inherent bonus to INT +4

Barbarian bear totem 5 (+4 feat, +4 class)
Factotum 3 (int as a modifier)
Bear Warrior 10 (+20 STR)
Warshaper 2 (+4 STR)
BaB:18

feats that you want:
Animal Devotion (+8 STR)
reckless rage (+2 STR)

Final STR score:
50+6+20+4+2+8=90 (+40)
INT:
12+4+6=22 (+6)

Grapple modifier:
18+40+6+4+4+4 = 76
You might as well throw on the Half-Ogre template as well. It's LA +0 if it's applied to a Large character.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Note that HeadlessMermaid forgot to add BAB to the Grapple bonus.
Whoops. Fixed, thanks!

@Taverick: If you don't mind dipping, you can take a level of Marshal. This will allow you to add your Cha to grapple checks, so it's another +3 (and more rounded saves), for the cost of 1 BAB. But more importantly, this bonus applies to all allies within 60 ft. Which means you can actually co-operate with the grappling wizard. (If you can't beat them, confuse them by helping them!)

[Taverick]

Oh, OK.

So... Does the above build suit you? Is the grapple check good enough? Do you find the race or the templates (or the combo) too odd? Is there anything else amiss?

I'm gonna get rid of the Xvart, that one is just too... just don't care for it. So what I think I'll do is use base human, add half-minotaur/ogre, suck up the +1 lvl adjustment, start out in battle dancer, and take a dip into marshal for a total of +27 to grapple. I'll also add the musclebound trait for an additional +1 to make it an even +28. I'll then continue in battle dancer for the increased unarmed strike damage, ac bonuses and BAB so I can get improved natural attack (unarmed) when I hit ecl 7. So I'll be doing 3d6+14 (if my math is right) with my unarmed strikes. 3d6+28 when using my legs in conjunction with Iron legs.

[HeadlessMermaid]

I'm gonna get rid of the Xvart, that one is just too... just don't care for it.
I don't blame you. :smalleek:
A couple of things:

1) If you begin as a medium creature, your total str bonus from both templates will be +16 (because you only increase size category once, you can't become larger than large), so your final str mod will be +12.

2) If human, Jotunbrud is a good 1-st level feat (assuming your DM allows regional feats). You count as one size larger, so that's another +4 to your grapple checks.

3) It's not entirely clear if half ogre/minotaur is LA +0 or LA +1 when they don't increase size. The best thing is to ask your DM.

[Ballista]

I'm gonna get rid of the Xvart, that one is just too... just don't care for it.

Bah, if you don't want a Xvart then at least give Incarnate Construct a look, it has -2LA as well, apply it to a Warforged, and get a couple of free templates.

[VGLordR2]

2) If human, Jotunbrud is a good 1-st level feat (assuming your DM allows regional feats). You count as one size larger, so that's another +4 to your grapple checks.



Jotunbrud treats you as Large, not as one size category larger.




3) It's not entirely clear if half ogre/minotaur is LA +0 or LA +1 when they don't increase size. The best thing is to ask your DM.



Half-Ogre specifically states that the Level Adjustment is: "Same as the base creature if it did not gain a size category, otherwise same as the base creature +1" So it is perfectly clear.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Jotunbrud treats you as Large, not as one size category larger.
Aww, you're right. My mistake.


Half-Ogre specifically states that the Level Adjustment is: "Same as the base creature if it did not gain a size category, otherwise same as the base creature +1" So it is perfectly clear.
Yeah, but someone suggested that it looked like an obvious typo (don't ask me why). That's why I said "ask the DM". It's what he says that matters.

[Sutremaine]

In the interest of keeping playing and not being a jerk like the jerk you hate so much

[....]

(you mentioned she's female, so yes, if it comes down to insults, you just HAVE to get "fat" in there somehow)
I don't think 'be a different kind of jerk' is the right answer to the problem.

[Agent 451]

Race: Xvart (small humanoid, LA -2):


Sorry, but where are you getting a -2 LA for Xvart? Where is it other than in Dragon 339 (where it is listed as a +0)?

[HeadlessMermaid]

Sorry, but where are you getting a -2 LA for Xvart? Where is it other than in Dragon 339 (where it is listed as a +0)?
*checks*
You are absolutely right. :smalleek:

I've seen it used a lot of times in template-stacking builds as an LA -2 race. Apparently, the culprit is a Crystal Keep typo. (And each and every one of us who used or suggested it without double checking... :smallredface:)

[Zubrowka74]

Let's recap :


Has to be ECL 3, with equivalent WBL
Can't be a monk
The "dwarf" he's trying to beat at grappling doesn't use magic to enhance his grappling so it does not matter that he's a wizard

[lianightdemon]

Make a psion shaper and summon oodles of astral constructs while you hide safely back. They can do the grappling while you supervise.
Now you can cover utility and other roles. And still grapple, or you can have your constructs do whatever you like.
If he wants to be grapple hore let him, do something else that will let you be useful in a different way.

[betelgeuce]

Honestly I hate this level of cheese. I really never use templates, period. I have a player like this at my table and I HATE HIS PLAY STYLE. Lets teleport into the rape zone. Ok, derr derr, party dies. I think it's egotistical and intolerant to people who may not be as well versed in the game. I responded with a build I keep locked up because I don't think psionics are that well balanced. It goes something like this:
Psionic Warrior 4/War Mind 2 (we are level 6 at this point). The character is an innate construct warforged who is spell warped (aberration) which allows the element air template in DM #315 (I think) which gives him more bonuses and finally you get a tank that can grapple, chew gum, read a book and finally eat a sandwich while fighting. I don't think answering broken with broken is right but when you have a spell hording, dragon wrought, lore master kobalt at your table ruining the game play it's time for DRAGON BALL Z, which is really where these kinds of games go. Not only does his characters +0 LA templates make him powerful, they beef up the things you fight so your party memebers can get instakilled first round. Our sorcerer died like that due to the CR being +5 over what it should have been. I feel your pain my friend.

[Taverick]

So I keep seeing this factotum class keep popping up, but I've no idea what it even is. Can someone let me know what book it's in so I can read up on it?

[Aeryr]

Factotum is from dungeonscape, you will probably like it.

[2xMachina]

... He's a grapple wizard. Who doesn't cast spells.

You sure he's a wizard? Not just pretending to be? Cause that's just gimping himself.

[Suddo]

I'd still like to second going Psychic Warrior, even without cheesy stuff like templates they are really cool and with that one feat (it was said here but I can't remember the name) you get unarmed progression as a monk.

[Taverick]

... He's a grapple wizard. Who doesn't cast spells.

You sure he's a wizard? Not just pretending to be? Cause that's just gimping himself.

He DOES cast spells, he just DIDN'T when he was grappling.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

He DOES cast spells, he just DIDN'T when he was grappling.

Do we factually know he doesn't have buffs up and running that help his grapple check?

[Taverick]

Okay, so I'm large sized right? So I get an increased threatened area. I saw in the comic for oots that a half ogre with a spiked chain was getting multiple attacks of opportunity from a charging opponent, but reading through the rules that's not the case. We're liberties taken for that or is there a way to do it? Not the sprint attack part, just more than one aoo on a charging foe?

And can you ready an action to sunder a lance as the one wielding it does a ride by attack and how does that work?

[Venusaur]

Take the feat Combat Reflexes from the player's handbook.

[Ceaon]

Take the feat Combat Reflexes from the player's handbook.

No, IIRC, that still allows only one AoO per provoking action, which moving into a threatened space is. Liberties were taken with the comic.
You could still trip, though, which, with Improved Trip, would allow another attack and stop movement.

[Voyager_I]

No, IIRC, that still allows only one AoO per provoking action, which moving into a threatened space is. Liberties were taken with the comic.
You could still trip, though, which, with Improved Trip, would allow another attack and stop movement.

Moving out of a threatened space provokes.


Forgive the pedantry.

[Eldariel]

Okay, so I'm large sized right? So I get an increased threatened area. I saw in the comic for oots that a half ogre with a spiked chain was getting multiple attacks of opportunity from a charging opponent, but reading through the rules that's not the case. We're liberties taken for that or is there a way to do it? Not the sprint attack part, just more than one aoo on a charging foe?

Hold the Line-feat grants you an AoO on a charging opponent so that plus movement would amount to two AoOs.


And can you ready an action to sunder a lance as the one wielding it does a ride by attack and how does that work?

Uh...the way you'd think.

[Qwertystop]

I hate to suggest it but... if it is absolutely necessary to show him up, I utter the two near-forbidden words.

PLANAR SHEPHARD. Combine it with Kelpstrand.

Good luck getting anywhere at all for him.

What's Kelpstrand?

[Ceaon]

Moving out of a threatened space provokes.


Forgive the pedantry.

Pedantry appreciated, even.

[Venusaur]

No, IIRC, that still allows only one AoO per provoking action, which moving into a threatened space is. Liberties were taken with the comic.
You could still trip, though, which, with Improved Trip, would allow another attack and stop movement.

With a spiked chain, he can attack every time he moves into a threatened square (any within 20 feet).

[Toliudar]

What's Kelpstrand?

A powerful 2nd level druid spell from Spell Compendium. Multiple grapples, keyed off you wisdom bonus and caster level rather than size and strength. One of those spells that can single-handedly end encounters.

[Answerer]

With a spiked chain, he can attack every time he moves into a threatened square (any within 20 feet).
No.

First, moving into a threatened square does not provoke, moving out of a threatened square provokes. Major difference.

Second, no single action can provoke more than once. If your movement provokes an attack of opportunity, and the threatening character takes it, that movement cannot provoke another attack of opportunity from that character for the rest of the round.

[BlueEyes]

The enemy enters first square you threaten - you can't yet make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
etc. until the enemy stops moving (most probably when he's adjacent to you or dead) or you run out of AoOs.

[VGLordR2]

The enemy enters first square you threaten - you can't yet make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
The enemy moves out of the square you threaten into the next square you threaten - you make an AoO.
etc. until the enemy stops moving (most probably when he's adjacent to you or dead) or you run out of AoOs.


Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

I have nothing else to add.

[Red_Dog]

Ceaon=>

That comic is 100% Accurate as to my memory that Half Ogre had Hold the Line.

You can make one AoO per trigger per person as long as you have AoOs left.

Moving out is a Trigger, Hold the line gives "moving in the square" trigger. So 2 triggers=2 smacks for running around/charging.

There are other triggers for AoOs such as Crusader's "You though about moving out of a square! That Counts! *SMACK!*", PHBII feat that triggers if opponent didn't move, using a bow in a threatened square, casting spell not defensively[or under effects of Mage Slayer], crawling thru threatened area[that's 2 smacks by the by! ^^] and maybe some others which elude me currently.

So yeah, accurate comic ^^.

[Trasilor]

I just want to commend the Playground community for trying to help this guy. This gamer is in a poor place that many of us have found ourselves in at one time or another. The responses have been both positive and helpful. I hope the OP can create his build without too much aggravation from this player.

Cheers

[BlueEyes]

I have nothing else to add.
Hm. I must have missed that the last time I checked.

[animewatcha]

Template question that comes into play when everyone's suggestion of builds. Can't you only have one 'half-x template' at a time? If can have multiple half templates, can this be cited anywhere that you says can? Sure can be half-ogre half-minotaur, but the half-ogre being a race not a template.

[Spuddles]

Template question that comes into play when everyone's suggestion of builds. Can't you only have one 'half-x template' at a time? If can have multiple half templates, can this be cited anywhere that you says can?

The only hard restrictions given for a template are whether it can be applied to a given creature; that's it. Half minotaur can be applied to any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant. Same with half ogre. So long as the base creature is one of those types, you can apply those templates. You could even throw on half dragon after adding those templates. And the base creature could be an orc.

The only restrictions in the rules for template adding is what sort of creature you can give it. For instance, a half dragon template can be applied to any living creature. A half minotaur half orc half ogre happens to be any living creature, thus is a valid target for half-dragon.

That's how D&D rules work, in general.


Sure can be half-ogre half-minotaur, but the half-ogre being a race not a template.

Actually, both are templates in DR313.


Ceaon=>

That comic is 100% Accurate as to my memory that Half Ogre had Hold the Line.

It wasn't. It had Roy getting knocked down before he could get up. However, going from prone to standing provokes while you're still prone, so you can't be tripped again. You can get up, you just cop another AoO. That's it. No lock down tripping to the point where you're always on your back.

[VGLordR2]

Template question that comes into play when everyone's suggestion of builds. Can't you only have one 'half-x template' at a time? If can have multiple half templates, can this be cited anywhere that you says can? Sure can be half-ogre half-minotaur, but the half-ogre being a race not a template.

Well, for one thing, there isn't anything (besides logic) in the rules that says otherwise. The usual rules for applying Templates apply, and there is no exception. The only thing that I can find that says you CAN stack templates is the Book of Templates 3.5. Other than that, I don't think anything else addresses this.

[animewatcha]

I understand both are templates from 313 and what it can be applied to. I was talking about half-ogre the race from like destiny IIRC. Or savage species. One of those books that had it at lower stats than the template 'would give.'

Anyways back to the templates now. What I mean ( going by realmshelp and d20srd as a quickie ref for this ) is that both are inherited templates.
Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Creatures are born with these templates.

So from 'birth', how is something 50% mino, 50% ogre, 'X that is > than 0' % source race? Even going by fluff/background, shouldn't be possible.

And 150% possible e-nis size complex to compensate for looks.:smalltongue:

@sidenote: where is tauric template?

[VGLordR2]

@sidenote: where is tauric template?

Monster Manual II.

[animewatcha]

I googled and saw some mention monster manual 2 update to 3.5 making it a level adjustment of 3 to base humanoid? Where can I find the '3.5 update handbooklet' or something or the equivalent of these things? Kinda like how it updated Jermlaine to LA 0.

[VGLordR2]

I googled and saw some mention monster manual 2 update to 3.5 making it a level adjustment of 3 to base humanoid? Where can I find the '3.5 update handbooklet' or something or the equivalent of these things? Kinda like how it updated Jermlaine to LA 0.

Here is a link. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)

[animewatcha]

Found it. Yep. +3 to base humanoid. So please enlighten me as to how to get 60 templates onto a tauric creature 'for free.'

[VGLordR2]

Found it. Yep. +3 to base humanoid. So please enlighten me as to how to get 60 templates onto a tauric creature 'for free.'

No matter what you choose as the nonhumanoid creature, the LA will always be plus three. So make the base creature a Feral Mineral Warrior Insectile Saint Vampire Half Minotaur Half Ogre Half Dragon Winged Celestial Dire Tiger, for a pitiful +3 level adjustment. (Note, I'm ninety percent sure that the combo I listed has about forty things wrong with it, but you get the gist.)

[animewatcha]

Just don't use detect aura or you might be 'blinded by the light.':smalltongue:

Still though, need to get a list of all the crap he has somehow. Chances are that some types are contradictory and even then, ask for a 'very good' backstory about all of them. I'm sure the Everyone would love to hear it.

Also VGL, I'm still waiting for the explanation on the half template stuff cause the inherited template fine print kinda covers the 'percentile' department. And googling isn't coming up with any builds for me that have 50 combinations of 27 halfs ( you get the idea ).

[Qwertystop]

Also VGL, I'm still waiting for the explanation on the half template stuff cause the inherited template fine print kinda covers the 'percentile' department. And googling isn't coming up with any builds for me that have 50 combinations of 27 halfs ( you get the idea ).

Firstly, he said that the specific details (which templates) don't necessarily work. Second, effective halves can be achieved through going very far back in the family tree.

[Taverick]

So I learned last session that he's a half earth elemental. However, it's some variant of it that doesn't have a level adjustment, or he's using the reduction/penalties rules. I doubt the latter cause he'd be having a lot more penalties to his rolls. I'll admit, he never seems to roll above a 7 on diplomacy, but his charisma score of 6 probably has something to do with that.

Also, if I have a readied action to sunder the lance of the cavalier who's charging me with spirited charge and all that, and I don't have improved sunder, does he get an AOO if I have a ten foot reach and my target is the lance when it first enters my threatened area? And does he get all the extra damage from the charge on the AOO if he gets one?

[Answerer]

So I learned last session that he's a half earth elemental. However, it's some variant of it that doesn't have a level adjustment, or he's using the reduction/penalties rules. I doubt the latter cause he'd be having a lot more penalties to his rolls. I'll admit, he never seems to roll above a 7 on diplomacy, but his charisma score of 6 probably has something to do with that.
It sounds like he's cheating. It's sounded like he was cheating the entire time.


Also, if I have a readied action to sunder the lance of the cavalier who's charging me with spirited charge and all that, and I don't have improved sunder, does he get an AOO if I have a ten foot reach and my target is the lance when it first enters my threatened area? And does he get all the extra damage from the charge on the AOO if he gets one?
Your attack occurs when he is in the square 10 ft. away; 3.5 doesn't include rules for weapons extending in front of the target. Since he is 10 ft. away, and the Lance is a reach weapon, he threatens you when you provoke, and he may make the attack of opportunity.

This does not, however, count as the attack at the end of the charge. He does not get bonus damage from the charge.

He also still gets to make his charge attack if he still has his Lance. There's no rule that taking an AoO interrupts whatever you were doing. Actually, I don't see anything in the rules that says he's allowed to abort the charge if his Lance is destroyed, which may mean he's forced to make the charge attack with his Unarmed Strike – provoking an AoO from you.


This is... a bit silly though. A lot of DMs are likely to want to change the rules here. It does seem reasonable that you'd be able to hit his Lance before he is in a position to hit you. And it does seem odd that he could take an AoO without interrupting his own charge. And the Unarmed Strike thing is just hilarious.

[Zubrowka74]

He also still gets to make his charge attack if he still has his Lance. There's no rule that taking an AoO interrupts whatever you were doing. Actually, I don't see anything in the rules that says he's allowed to abort the charge if his Lance is destroyed, which may mean he's forced to make the charge attack with his Unarmed Strike – provoking an AoO from you.


This is... a bit silly though. A lot of DMs are likely to want to change the rules here. It does seem reasonable that you'd be able to hit his Lance before he is in a position to hit you. And it does seem odd that he could take an AoO without interrupting his own charge. And the Unarmed Strike thing is just hilarious.

It does make some sens in the way that a charge doesn't stop if the lance breaks before, but I'd rule that the unarmed strike doesn't have the reach to attack from horseback without a feat - unless he jumps off the saddle.

This AoO thing is ridiculous. If one of the guy has a longer reach he should'nt provoque AoO. And if the mounted opponent somehow gets one with the charge weapon, this should either use or cancel the charge, as the momentum is spent.

[Answerer]

It does make some sens in the way that a charge doesn't stop if the lance breaks before, but I'd rule that the unarmed strike doesn't have the reach to attack from horseback without a feat - unless he jumps off the saddle.
Uhh... you definitely can make Unarmed Strikes while mounted. That's definitely legal in the rules.


This AoO thing is ridiculous. If one of the guy has a longer reach he should'nt provoque AoO. And if the mounted opponent somehow gets one with the charge weapon, this should either use or cancel the charge, as the momentum is spent.
They have the same reach, elsewise the sunderer wouldn't be threatened and therefore would provoke but the charger wouldn't be eligible to take it. Since they have the same reach though, the charger can.

As for using the charge, I don't like that answer because it means the readied action is an even worse response to a charge than it normally is. Characters should be able to attempt to answer the tactics of others.

[Zubrowka74]

Uhh... you definitely can make Unarmed Strikes while mounted. That's definitely legal in the rules.

Of course I wasn't implying RAW here.


They have the same reach, elsewise the sunderer wouldn't be threatened and therefore would provoke but the charger wouldn't be eligible to take it. Since they have the same reach though, the charger can.

As for using the charge, I don't like that answer because it means the readied action is an even worse response to a charge than it normally is. Characters should be able to attempt to answer the tactics of others.

Ah, I read the wrong way. If the reach comes from size, it makes more sense. Still, it is plausible for both charger and chargee impaling / hiting each other, that's the image I had.

[2xMachina]

More reason for a Monk not to ride :P

[HeadlessMermaid]

So I learned last session that he's a half earth elemental. However, it's some variant of it that doesn't have a level adjustment, or he's using the reduction/penalties rules. I doubt the latter cause he'd be having a lot more penalties to his rolls. I'll admit, he never seems to roll above a 7 on diplomacy, but his charisma score of 6 probably has something to do with that.
As far as I know, there's no half-elemental variant with no LA. Basically, I think there's no half-elemental variant, period.

Now, what are these "penalties rules"? A houserule? Or something official that I've missed? It sounds like you get free LA but suffer a penalty to (some/all?) your rolls. Do you know how that works exactly?

In any case, here's what I think: Grappling wizard dwarf, half-earth elemental, the Earth Sense feat chain, inexplicable lack of level adjustment... this doesn't sound like a deviously optimized character. This sounds like a themed character (the theme is a wizard with the strength of the earth itself), built with homebrew material. Or at least, by modifying the official material so much, that we've gone beyond tweaking, and straight into "complete rewrite" territory.

Which, by itself, is not a bad thing. Personally, I'm all FOR adapting the crunch and fluff in order to bring a specific character concept to life. It becomes a bad thing when only one player is allowed to do it, and when said player basically lies that his build is RAW. :smallyuk:

In short, I think you should talk directly to your DM. Point out that it's terribly unfair to allow one player to bend the rules, while the others have to abide by RAW's restrictions.

If the DM doesn't let you see the other player's build, you have no option but to respect that. But if he uses any houserules, you have the right to know about them. If he's handwaving or ignoring the official fluff (say, a half-earth elemental who looks like a perfectly ordinary dwarf...), you have the right to know about it. If he's modifying the crunch for the sake of flavor, you have the right to know about it. If he's adapting templates or feats in a certain way, you have a right to know about it. If he hands out free LA (possibly with drawbacks), you have the right to know about it.

My 2 cents.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are half elemental templates out there.

The ones in Manual of the Planes, with the 3.5e book update, also found in Dragon Magazine #326, which have a +3 LA, are the main notable ones.

The Manual of the Planes + Update also have some elemental creature templates, too, and Dragon Magazine #347 has some more of those.

[Gavinfoxx]

double post

[HeadlessMermaid]

There are half elemental templates out there.

The ones in Manual of the Planes, with the 3.5e book update, also found in Dragon Magazine #326, which have a +3 LA, are the main notable ones.
Well, yes, these are the half-elementals that we know, all costing LA+3. (It was +2 in Manual of the Planes, but the 3.0 to 3.5 Update made it +3.) The question is, is there somewhere a variant of them? With reduced LA, or no LA, or any other modification? I don't think so (though if there is, I'd love to know).

By the way, I stumbled upon this homebrew PrC (http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/gaeleth/classes/anvilofGalgiran.htm): requires dwarf, grants the half-earth elemental template, and gives a situational bonus to grapple. Logically, the prerequisites can't be met by a 5th lvl wizard (and it doesn't progress spellcasting). But looking at this PrC, I'd bet that the dwarf's player made up something like it, rather than use a legal way to grab the template for free.

[Averis Vol]

could he be an earth genasi? they're...kinda half elementals =/. even though it says almost all are human, really, who cares about fluff?

EDIT: La +1; Str +2, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha -2
pass without trace 1/day
some saves vs earth spells.

[Taverick]

All I know for sure is that he is a half earth elemental, has immunity to acid, and suffers some major penalties to things. The rest we've yet to determine and since my character doesn't have knowledge skills or spellcraft, I have to wait for others to do it and only one person seems to care but doesn't get the chance.

[Ceaon]

All I know for sure is that he is a half earth elemental, has immunity to acid, and suffers some major penalties to things. The rest we've yet to determine and since my character doesn't have knowledge skills or spellcraft, I have to wait for others to do it and only one person seems to care but doesn't get the chance.

The problem with balancing powerful bonuses with large penalties should be obvious to the DM: a PC can choose a playstyle that will allow him to benefit from his bonuses while ignoring his penalties.

You might explain this to your DM or the player in question if you think this will help. You might tell the DM you suspect him of cheating, that the player is taking your fun, or you might tell this to the player in question (again). But I think the fact that neither the DM nor the player seem to care that this irks you so much should give you some indication that you can either suck it up, destroy the other player's fun, or quit.

My advice is thus: stop caring/suck it up. To do this, you'll probably need to play something different than what you initially wanted. That's too bad, but you can be the bigger man here. Try to find another way to contribute, like buffing, divination, debuffing, controlling, or dealing damage.

If you really really want to play a tripper and your DM doesn't care whether something is overpowered as long as its legal, you might as well play a semi-Pun Pun, who has an ability: PunPun Trip (Ex): the target falls prone.

[animewatcha]

See if you can modify character a bit.

One can always switch out iron legs for something like arcane schooling ( half-orc to human if this is legal for regional feats ) and find the thread for locate city bomb via cheap wands/scrolls. Wizzie wants to grapple? He can grapple the residents wights who will be awfully touchy feely toward him.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lesser Earth Genasi woudl be LA+0 I think.

[Roncorps]

Lesser Earth Genasi woudl be LA+0 I think.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145459

---> Lesser Planetouched, Player's Guide to Faerun

---> Elemental Racial Variants from UA