Dread Necromancer PrC suggestions?

[LordBlades]

I'm about to stat a tier 3 (or less) campaign in which I'm gonna be playing a necropoiltan Dread Necromancer (mainly focused on creating/controlling undead) in all undead party (Dragonfire Adept, Warblade and Beguiler going for Chameleon)

Starting level will be 4, and the campaign is expected to carry on in the low teens or higher and enemies will mainly be Undead, Demons and Dragons.
I'm not sure what exactly to go for PrC-wise after level 8 (or 12).

Any suggestions?

[Wookie-ranger]

Dread Witch is a good choice if you fear stacking; the DW ignores fear immunities after a while. As the main enemies you have listed are undead, demons and dragons this could give the whole group an advantage.


you should also consider 2 levels in Pale Master. you lose a caster level (bad) but you gain Animate Dead (sp) 1/day without material components. If you don't have a cheap and steady supply of onyx this can come handy.


BTW: is the Beguiler going to focus a little on UMD? that way you would be the secondary spell caster.

In general: try to become spell-stiched and try to find/make some black sand and put it in you boots.
my last DM where I tried this was very skeptical, but allowed it if i reduce the speed by have. if the DM does not allow it just put some in your pocked of bag of holding.

you have probably see them but here:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook

http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer/Notes

[Roguenewb]

You can always go rainbow servant...but thats a silly idea, let's not go there. If you can arcane preparation you can go into Mage of the Arcane Order and overcome a lot of your inherent limitations, while also getting some bonus feats and such.

[LordBlades]

You can always go rainbow servant...but thats a silly idea, let's not go there. If you can arcane preparation you can go into Mage of the Arcane Order and overcome a lot of your inherent limitations, while also getting some bonus feats and such.

I'd rather stay away from the 'how to sneak a tier 1 into a tier 3 game' tbh:smallwink:

@Wookie-ranger the DFI is the UMD-monkey of the group, being undead he can be 100% Cha focused. Also, I'd rather not put too many eggs in the Fear basket, since both Dragons and Outsiders tend to have pretty good Will Saves.

[SynissterSyster]

I suggest getting a feat like arcane disciple to help expand your list. Also spellstiched just for free animate dead. You actually qualify for Abjurant Champion (sp?) but need more spells to make it more worth while. Fiend Blooded helps out as you have fire spells added to your list as well s a few others. Toss in Shadow Adept and you can go a long way. Maximize all your resources so you can have minions to trounce over things.

[Eonir]

I second the Abjurant Champion idea (comp mage btw).

I am currently playing a Dread Necro8/Duskblade3/Abjurant Champion5/Dread Necro X, and channeling harm into some paladins face is OH SO FUN. I also have 180 HD worth of undead, so they are constantly flanked/getting eaten by my Great Wyrm Red Dragon Zombie.

[SynissterSyster]

I would not go for a class where you lose caster levels. If you need the BAB for the champion then look for a 3/4 or half BAB class for two levels that is full casting and helps your spell list. Maybe fiend blooded or shadow adapt or something (no books with me so I can't give more info).

[stack]

I thought one of the big draws of the DN was that it was fine without Prc's. Any reason you don't want to go strait DN?

[SynissterSyster]

Dread Necro is good until level 8 then after that PrC out as it doesn't give anything worthwhile. The biggest drawback is the spell list is limited. You have good ones in there but you lack things like magic circle against x spells for your lesser planar binding and some other spells. You want some flexability with your casting so get things like fiend blooded.

[Eonir]

Dread Necro is good until level 8 then after that PrC out as it doesn't give anything worthwhile.

Eh. I tend to disagree with the lords of optimization on that issue. Your Undead Mastery class ability scales with HD, not CL, so more DN levels grant your more undead to boss around. And as OP stated, he wanted to be an undead controller, so more DN levels isn't necessarily a bad thing. You also become a Lich at 20th level, which is pretty cool.

[LordBlades]

Eh. I tend to disagree with the lords of optimization on that issue. Your Undead Mastery class ability scales with HD, not CL, so more DN levels grant your more undead to boss around. And as OP stated, he wanted to be an undead controller, so more DN levels isn't necessarily a bad thing. You also become a Lich at 20th level, which is pretty cool.

In the end I'll probably stick with DN until at least level 12. I want Animate Dread Warrior, and all other ways to get it apart from Advanced Learning bring with them most of the goodies that make a wizard Tier 1, and that's not what I want.

Re Undead Mastery, it does increase, but atm I can't see myself needing more than 80-100 HD of undead, but I'll just see about it when I get there:smallbiggrin:

[Lactantius]

Another way is to tweak the Master of Shrouds a bit too make it fit with the DN.
You just need to change the requirement of being able to cast divine spells.

I think both classes mesh very well since they both deal with the summoning/creating of undead creature.

[Heatwizard]

Dread Necro is good until level 8 then after that PrC out as it doesn't give anything worthwhile. The biggest drawback is the spell list is limited. You have good ones in there but you lack things like magic circle against x spells for your lesser planar binding and some other spells. You want some flexability with your casting so get things like fiend blooded.

The old handbook said something to that effect, but it was actually wrong; Undead Mastery changes your Animate Dead cap to be based on your class level, so jumping out at 8 means it'll rise to...probably 64, and then never move again. Your DM might house rule for you, or you might be able to just cope if you don't plan on playing past 16 or you make good use of chains of command, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Malachei]

Archmage? For arcane reach etc.?

[Psyren]

The old handbook said something to that effect, but it was actually wrong; Undead Mastery changes your Animate Dead cap to be based on your class level, so jumping out at 8 means it'll rise to...probably 64, and then never move again.

The thing is, you only need much higher than that if you're controlling an army, in which case combat will get slowed to a crawl and your DM will probably never let you touch DN again.

If you only have a couple of bruisers you're fine - where are you going to find a 64HD corpse? Or two 32HD ones? And unless you're a Pale Master or Necrocarnate, how are you going to afford animating them? Much less anything higher.

[Heatwizard]

The thing is, you only need much higher than that if you're controlling an army, in which case combat will get slowed to a crawl and your DM will probably never let you touch DN again.

If you only have a couple of bruisers you're fine - where are you going to find a 64HD corpse? Or two 32HD ones? And unless you're a Pale Master or Necrocarnate, how are you going to afford animating them? Much less anything higher.

but...your numbers ):

Armies in a fight are easy, though. You roll a d20 for one side, and then a d20 for the other side, and then you ignore them both and just base it all on how the PC's fight with the opposing general and his handful of elite lieutenants is going.

And for a single casting of Major Creation, you can get a 9x9 block of solid onyx for an hour, that's more then enough.

[SynissterSyster]

Spellstiched also help with the component cost. As an aside you also have to rebuke the undead so if you want to control them. Undead Mastery doesn't give control to said undead by default. Not too many PrC give that. I still suggest anything to help your spell list. Master of Shrouds needs Dm approval but I would wait untill like 15 level due to the loss of spell casting, you are a spell caster formost with lots of undead to back you up. Spell casting first imo.

[Doxkid]

Fleshwarper (Lords of Madness). You get to improve the undead/party in interesting ways, so long as you can either UMD scrolls or get access to a caster who knows certain spells.

Even without those two you have a decent number of options though.

[Fable Wright]

Dread Necro is good until level 8 then after that PrC out as it doesn't give anything worthwhile. The biggest drawback is the spell list is limited. You have good ones in there but you lack things like magic circle against x spells for your lesser planar binding and some other spells. You want some flexability with your casting so get things like fiend blooded.

Not actually entirely true. If you grab Arcane Disciple and get Divine Power, you basically have full BAB, and with Enervating Touch, Contagious Touch, and DR (Magic and Bludgeoning? Who has that?) as class features with your always starting encounters at your full HP... DN is actually quite fine all the way to 20. Avasculate followed by a full attack with negative levels on everything with fortitude save or lose? Seems legit. I'm not saying that it's perfect, or necessarily better than PrCing out, but DN 20 still gives some worthwhile things.

[SynissterSyster]

Few things to note. 1: You are right in the class level of DN is indeed accounted for with Undead Mastery But, 2: Animate dead has one limitation on it, you cannot animate more then double your caster level in HD of undead in a single casting. 3. Pump charisma would be more helpful in the long run due to the fact that if you stay at DN 8 you can easily get 100+ hd to control just by boosting chat (assuming you start at 18).

For PrC hell I can suggest a lot of things but go for full caster prc and if they help expand your spell list even better.

[SynissterSyster]

You got a point DM but why in the world would you melee? You have minions to do that. OP wants minions so no need to have the BAB, it is nice yes but entering melee should be last on your list. Arcane disciple is wonderful for getting spells (always a good thing). I am all for getting that feat but I believe it needs wisdome to get higher spells which is fine as you can remove the need for str and con with this by being a necropolitian.

[Fable Wright]

You got a point DM but why in the world would you melee? You have minions to do that. OP wants minions so no need to have the BAB, it is nice yes but entering melee should be last on your list. Arcane disciple is wonderful for getting spells (always a good thing). I am all for getting that feat but I believe it needs wisdome to get higher spells which is fine as you can remove the need for str and con with this by being a necropolitian.

A better question: Why wouldn't you melee? Dread Necromancer's class abilities almost exclusively help in melee, and some of your best spells (Harm, Greater Harm, Avasculate) are melee touch attacks. You have a fear aura that activates when you go into combat. You have a burst ability that heals you and your undead within a very small range, while simultaneously hurting anyone else near you. Plus anyone you poke is subject to negative levels and disease. And if you get to the capstone, you can stack the Lich's paralyzing touch on that. Finally, there's the awesome factor. A Necromancer who raised an army and fights from the back with debuffs is fine and all, but a Necomancer Warlord who fights from the front and kills everyone who dares go near him is much, much cooler.