[PF] Looking for Gunslinger Advice

[NightbringerGGZ]

Hi everybody. I'm going to be joining a game soon where most of the other players have chosen their characters already, and everybody seems to have chosen a class that fights at range. For the good of the group I'm going to be our second melee, but I really want to play a Gunslinger. I'm hoping ya'll can help me decide how to build this character so that he's both fun to play but also effective at close range.

My character concept is a human male from a disgraced, formerly noble line. He'll be somewhat vain and proud of his family's history, quick to defend his family name. He's looking to redeem his name in the eyes of the peerage, with the goal of regaining his ancestral title and lands. He currently finds himself working as a gun-for-hire.

We're going to be capping out at level 15 and are using a 20 point buy for character creation. I'm thinking of multi-classing, taking 11 levels of Gunslinger and 4 of another class. I'd like some thoughts on the following:

1) Would it be worth it to pick the Guntank archetype, or would it be better just to multi-class Fighter for heavy armor?

2) I'm toying with the idea of Gunslinger(Pistolero) / Cavalier (Musketeer). Would I be able to build this character tough enough to survive combat at close range? Also, keeping my character concept in mind, I'm having a tough time picking an Order that would work.

3) Would it be worth spending the feats to reach Greater Snap Shot? Or would I be more effective if I use my feets on a mix of Gunslinger Feets & a few melee feats.

[SSGoW]

Hi everybody. I'm going to be joining a game soon where most of the other players have chosen their characters already, and everybody seems to have chosen a class that fights at range. For the good of the group I'm going to be our second melee, but I really want to play a Gunslinger. I'm hoping ya'll can help me decide how to build this character so that he's both fun to play but also effective at close range.

My character concept is a human male from a disgraced, formerly noble line. He'll be somewhat vain and proud of his family's history, quick to defend his family name. He's looking to redeem his name in the eyes of the peerage, with the goal of regaining his ancestral title and lands. He currently finds himself working as a gun-for-hire.

We're going to be capping out at level 15 and are using a 20 point buy for character creation. I'm thinking of multi-classing, taking 11 levels of Gunslinger and 4 of another class. I'd like some thoughts on the following:

1) Would it be worth it to pick the Guntank archetype, or would it be better just to multi-class Fighter for heavy armor?

2) I'm toying with the idea of Gunslinger(Pistolero) / Cavalier (Musketeer). Would I be able to build this character tough enough to survive combat at close range? Also, keeping my character concept in mind, I'm having a tough time picking an Order that would work.

3) Would it be worth spending the feats to reach Greater Snap Shot? Or would I be more effective if I use my feets on a mix of Gunslinger Feets & a few melee feats.

I'm not great on crunch however you should listen to the song "Ringo" by Lorne Greene then name your character Ringo :D

[deuxhero]

Gunslinger handbook

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11719683#post11719683

[Cieyrin]

Deuxhero already linked my Handbook but I can answer some of your questions here.


Hi everybody. I'm going to be joining a game soon where most of the other players have chosen their characters already, and everybody seems to have chosen a class that fights at range. For the good of the group I'm going to be our second melee, but I really want to play a Gunslinger. I'm hoping ya'll can help me decide how to build this character so that he's both fun to play but also effective at close range.

My character concept is a human male from a disgraced, formerly noble line. He'll be somewhat vain and proud of his family's history, quick to defend his family name. He's looking to redeem his name in the eyes of the peerage, with the goal of regaining his ancestral title and lands. He currently finds himself working as a gun-for-hire.

We're going to be capping out at level 15 and are using a 20 point buy for character creation. I'm thinking of multi-classing, taking 11 levels of Gunslinger and 4 of another class. I'd like some thoughts on the following:

Any idea about what that other class is gonna be?


1) Would it be worth it to pick the Guntank archetype, or would it be better just to multi-class Fighter for heavy armor?

Guntank is probably the weakest Gunslinger archetype but it can be combo'd with Pistolero for a shield and pistol type build, especially when you get Bullet Deflection, so I'd pursue it if all you want from Fighter is armor profieciency.


2) I'm toying with the idea of Gunslinger(Pistolero) / Cavalier (Musketeer). Would I be able to build this character tough enough to survive combat at close range? Also, keeping my character concept in mind, I'm having a tough time picking an Order that would work.

Gunslingers are pretty tough as-is for close-range combat, between good saves and d10 HD but I think if you wanted to mix in a Lurking Musketeer (Careful Aim is very worth your while), I think it could work reasonably well. As for order, Lion or Shield looks like they could both fit and be useful to you.


3) Would it be worth spending the feats to reach Greater Snap Shot? Or would I be more effective if I use my feets on a mix of Gunslinger Feets & a few melee feats.

The Snap Shot line is a nice one, though it's also expensive feat-wise. To really make use of it would probably require Deft Shootist and Combat Reflexes on top of the rest, so you'd probably want some Fighter or Monk levels to support that.

[Larpus]

Yeah, read the guide, it's really nice, I used pretty much all of it into giving advice to a friend who was playing a Slinger when I was a Barbarian, and he actually stood his ground pretty well.

But since you will go ranged + melee, be careful since both paths are quite feat-intensive to be good at with little feat-overlap. Don't really remember how well the Cavalier fares (don't think it was bad though), but consider your other options carefully, such as Barbarian, Paladin or maybe even Fighter (though this one does seem redundant).

I'm guessing you want to stay as far away from magic as possible?

And it might be worthy to ask: what are the other party members exactly?

[grarrrg]

Well, you said you wanted a "melee Gunslinger", so you have 3 main approaches to your weapon selection.
Gun for Ranged, 'sword' for Melee (replace 'sword' with whatever).
'Bayonet'-class gun, i.e. Pistol-Dagger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pistol-dagger), Musket-Axe (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/musket-axe), etc...
Or taking a Feat to not Provoke AoO's when shooting/reloading at melee?

I'd generally advise taking the Feat route, then you can concentrate solely on Firearm feats/enchanting/classes.
The 3 options are Gunslinger (the feat) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunslinger), requires Weapon Focus, and only works when 'firing' while threatened. Reloading still provokes AoO's.
Point Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) which requires Weapon Specialization (and thereby Weapon Focus), which usually means a 4 level dip into Fighter, but Musketeer Cavalier works too :smallsmile:).
Or Deft Shootist Deed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deft-shootist-deed-grit), requires Dodge and Mobility, but is the overall best option for non-Fighter builds.

I recommend NOT taking Gun Tank, and doing the 4+ levels of Cavalier or Fighter to get Weapon Specialization > Point-Blank Master. Fighter is nice for the Feats, Cavalier has better bonuses.

Your best options for Fighter are either normal Fighter (for Armor Training at 3, Weapon Training at 5), or Weapon Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-master) Fighter (for Weapon Training at 3).

For Cavalier, as Cieyrin mentioned, you NEED to go Luring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier) Musketeer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/musketeer).
Luring level 3 lets you target Touch AC out to 2 range increments, Musketeer levels count as Fighter levels for Firearm feats, and gives you Rapid Reload at level 4. If you're starting at a low level, then you'll want to have Rapid Reload sooner, so 3 levels of Cavalier plus 1 level Fighter would be best.
Regardless, there isn't much reason to stay in Cavalier past 4 levels anyway.

For Order, you may want to give the Samurai options a look.
Order of the Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/paizo---samurai-orders/order-of-the-warrior) gets a 1/day +4 bonus to a Skill Check or Saving Throw, good to have 'just in case'.
Ronin/Knight Errant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/samurai-orders/paizo---samurai-orders/ronin-knight-errant) gives you a 2nd chance on most Will saves, and gives you a better chance to Stabilize if brought below 0hp.

[Cieyrin]

grarrrg, Gunslinger (the feat) is from a 3.5 source (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is, since they released it during the PF Alpha/Beta), so whether it's available for use is kinda questionable, especially considering the Inner Sea World Guide is meant to replace it. Seems kinda shaky but then it may be worthwhile if pursuing Snap Shot, since you'll be getting Weapon Focus anyways.

[grarrrg]

grarrrg, Gunslinger (the feat) is from a 3.5 source (Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is, since they released it during the PF Alpha/Beta), so whether it's available for use is kinda questionable, especially considering the Inner Sea World Guide is meant to replace it. Seems kinda shaky but then it may be worthwhile if pursuing Snap Shot, since you'll be getting Weapon Focus anyways.

*stupid quick ref notes...*

That's alright though. Because it is the worst of the bunch.
And Musketeer Cavalier can get you Weapon Spec into Point Blank Master anyway, so you'll have Weapon Focus regardless.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Thanks guys, some good suggestions here! I think I'll go Cavalier 4 / Gunslinger 11 at this point, using the Luring Musketeer and Pistolero archetypes.

The question regarding the Cavalier Order has more to do with my character's background and motivations. The Warrior is appealing for the abilities it grants, but the way I want to play my character will definitely wind up with me frequently violating the Edicts. I don't see specific edicts for Black Daimyo, so I'll probably talk to my GM about mixing it with the edicts of Order of the Cockatrice.

Feat selection is going to be tough, there's just too many that I want to take =). I'll get Rapid Reload (Pistol) for free, and I'm probably going to work my way to Improved Snap Shot. I'm taking Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim and Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly), so that's 8/11 feats accounted for.

I'm going to act as the group's tank, and I can reasonably plan to have a fairly high AC, even wearing medium armor. Would it be worth skipping Point Blank Master so that I can intentionally draw AoO?

Is Precise Shot worth picking up for its own sake? And knowing that the GM does use the Massive Damage rule, how good is Clustered Shots?

One final question, when using Rapid Shot is your extra attack at the highest attack bonus? If so, am I right in thinking that the Luring Cavalier's Careful Aim would give me two shots that target Touch AC at two range increments away?

I'm really liking this build. It looks like I'll be fairly tough, very mobile and able to pump out a good amount of damage. I'll have some pretty cool abilities too, with 2 Challenges a day plus my Grit pool and a decent number of skill points to spend.

[Larpus]

I'm going to act as the group's tank, and I can reasonably plan to have a fairly high AC, even wearing medium armor. Would it be worth skipping Point Blank Master so that I can intentionally draw AoO?
I Don't consider it being a good idea to provoke AoOs on purpose unless you have a plan or something that comes out of it. In my eyes it seems that if you do that, you'll just end up getting yourself killed while trying to attack (not to mention leading to long drawn-out battles).


Is Precise Shot worth picking up for its own sake? And knowing that the GM does use the Massive Damage rule, how good is Clustered Shots?
Precise Shot is for shooting someone who is engaged in melee, but as far as I know it's when your target is engaged in melee with a being you do not want to harm (hence the -4), if you couldn't care less (say, two enemies fighting), there's no penalty if I recall correctly.

If what you're doing is shooting things right at your face, what you want is Point Blank Shot. So answering your question, no, for you it seems rather pointless. Your teammates should have it tho.

Even without the massive damage rules, Clustered Shots is already useful for piercing DR. I'd have to run some calculations, but blindly guessing tells me that with the massive damage rules, it's just gravy on top.


One final question, when using Rapid Shot is your extra attack at the highest attack bonus? If so, am I right in thinking that the Luring Cavalier's Careful Aim would give me two shots that target Touch AC at two range increments away?
If I'm not mistaken, yeah, it's full BAB (with the -2 for using the feat, tho). It's not specifically mentioned, but the careful wording to mention full BAB, does seem that this usage was the designer's intention, so personally I'd say yes.

[Cieyrin]

Precise Shot is for shooting someone who is engaged in melee, but as far as I know it's when your target is engaged in melee with a being you do not want to harm (hence the -4), if you couldn't care less (say, two enemies fighting), there's no penalty if I recall correctly.

While correct that the in melee penalty only really applies if allies and enemies are engaged, it's a common enough occurrence that you probably want to save yourself some grief, also the problem of soft cover getting in the way of your target nets an effective -8 penalty to your attack if they're also engaged in melee, which is a problem regardless of whether you're attacking a firearm or other ranged weapon. For exact rules, check this out (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack), scroll down to shooting into melee, it's a lot more intricate than I recall it being.


If what you're doing is shooting things right at your face, what you want is Point Blank Shot. So answering your question, no, for you it seems rather pointless. Your teammates should have it tho.

On the other hand, it's a prereq for most of the ranged tree, so it's often a necessary evil. Before Careful Aim becomes available, as a Pistolero, you'll often be in range of your target to get Point Blank Shot to go off, so in that respect it's not a bad deal.


Even without the massive damage rules, Clustered Shots is already useful for piercing DR. I'd have to run some calculations, but blindly guessing tells me that with the massive damage rules, it's just gravy on top.

It's definitely for dealing with DR and certainly useful.


If I'm not mistaken, yeah, it's full BAB (with the -2 for using the feat, tho). It's not specifically mentioned, but the careful wording to mention full BAB, does seem that this usage was the designer's intention, so personally I'd say yes.

It definitely is an additional attack at your full BAB, just with all your attacks at -2.