Craft (Sculpting) questions!

[The Overlord]

Alright, so my now low-level character is going to start boost His Craft (sculpting) skill. It's simply useful for many Constructs He will want to craft.

However, like any other crafts, You can make a living out of it making half your check in gold per week. Not bad.

However there is a few details that I am lacking in order to increase that.

1-
It says I can hire an assistant for 1 silver per day (thus 7sp per week), and I can supervise Her apparently using my own craft skill. So the question becomes, how much gold does this assistant makes Me? If She can make a single gold piece per week doing this, why work for Me at all? Maybe because She is untrained and cannot craft without Me? Am I using my own skill to determine how much gold She makes or am I giving Her a +2 for aid another ? She is untrained after all.

2-
Now if I want to make a piece of art that will sell for much much more than the trinkets I sell each week, how do I determine the price of the statue ?

PHB says that:
Simple Items = DC 5
Typical Items = DC 10
High-Quality Items = DC 15
Superior Items = DC 20

And it says that Masterwork items is a DC 20 and some gold cost on top of the normal one. (But it doesn't list the worth of a masterwork statue! Maybe it's simply the same than a Superior Item?)

So the question becomes; if I just declare I'm making a superior item, do I decide the worth of my art?
I know I'm supposed to spent a third of the value in raw materials, but a piece of rock will cost a piece of rock no matter the quality of the statue created from it, right?
Or is the cost of the raw material the ONLY way We can determine the worth of a statue?
How would the DC affects the value ?

Thanks for your help.

[Flickerdart]

The assistant is only good for giving you Aid Anothers (and since she's untrained and you can't take 10, she'll fail half the time). The more assistants you hire, the more money you'll make - if you hire ten thousand, you'll walk away with millions.

Masterwork is a weapon and armor property A statue cannot be masterwork.

The DC doesn't affect the value, just how quickly you make it. The value is dictated entirely by the raw material cost.

[rmg22893]

The assistant is only good for giving you Aid Anothers (and since she's untrained and you can't take 10, she'll fail half the time). The more assistants you hire, the more money you'll make - if you hire ten thousand, you'll walk away with millions.

Statistically, each assistant has a 50% chance of making you 3SP (+1 gold from your +2 to the check minus their 7SP wages) per week and a 50% chance of losing you 7SP per week. So realistically, you'd almost always lose money from hiring lots of assistants.

[The Overlord]

But there is masterwork tools in the PHB, doesn't that mean anything created can be of masterwork quality?

So if I hire TRAINED assistant at 3sp per day(PHB), She works a week for 21 sp.
We aid each other, let's say she got Crafting at 4.
She could make Me up to 13 gold pieces minus Her salary; 10,9 gold pieces per week !
Why would She work for Me?

So apparently there is NO appreciation for Art in D&D.
A stone sculpture of superior work is worth far less than a typical work made of bronze ?
I know it balances, but that's weird.

[SynissterSyster]

A few questions:

Do you plan on adventuring or playing shop?

Seeing how crafting takes a very long time in D&D I take it the rest of the group is okay with sitting around as you chisle away?

Are there houserules that speed up the process of crafting or no?

Other then small amounts of gold why are you crafting? Selling the wares to wizards (which fits more with an expert npc) and other magic using types?

[The Overlord]

Our characters are on a long-term quest for World Conquest.
We have just got our hand on an abandoned fortress on a island, relatively near a large city. So We must renovate the fortress, customize it and my character plans on creating various construct and undead to serve Him, so lots and lots of gold is needed.

I am using the craft per day rule, so I can stop and start the work in-between adventures more easily. So the speed of my work depends on my craft check. (I can also increase the DC by 10 to speed up the process as per PHB.) There is also a "Chamber of Speed" augmentation for rooms in Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (15,000 gp, reduces time to craft by HALF!).
So at that point, with a properly built workplace, no need for houserules to speed things up.

And yes, I expect selling custom-made wares to NPCs will pay much more than the gold per week thing (unless I get lots of TRAINED assistant and that it indeed works hat way). But that doesn't answer any of my questions.

[SynissterSyster]

Honestly your best bet is to use the money you adventure with to hire people to do the work for you. If you can use minions like undead then have them do the work. It is one of the most sensable things to do as you can adventure and pay for anyone to do your work. Heck if you can bribe a beholder to does it all the better.

[The Overlord]

But that doesn't answer the questions:

1- Does hireling a trained assistant work like that? If so, why would they ever work for Me?

2- Isn't it weird that the DC doesn't affect the worth of the work ?
A typical stone statue and a superior stone statue are both worth the same!
Why buy a DaVinci when a kindergarden's work is worth the same ?

[SynissterSyster]

1 Assistant won't make 1 gp a week. A silver maybe but not a gp. You hire someone to do the work for you and they do it because they are npcs and you are a PC. If, big if, a npc made that much they would be the lead crafter and not be hired out.

2. DC effects time as you said. It isn't weird as this is not a game of economy. The players should be doing more then sitting around chipping away at a rock. You adventure for money. The DMG and MiC have ideas on value of items and treasure but what a character makes is in silver pieces a week (day in your odd case). So figure if a big statue is like 1k in gp you will be working for many, many days/weeks.

As for why buy..you loot silly. Again you are an adventurer why buy anything when you get it from your spoils. If it is too big to carry then hire someone or have minions make it cheaper.

[The Overlord]

Triple post Syster. -.-

1- According to the rules for Crafting in the PHB; they can easily make over 20 gp per week. Anyone with the skill can.

2- The per day variant is in the PHB under Craft also. I just find it weird that according to the rules, the value is only 3x the value of the raw materials, no matter the quality of the craft.

3- Sure there will be alot of adventures and looting, but You can't take over the world without logistics and politics. It ain't all bashing skulls all the time!

[SynissterSyster]

Fixed the posts. Got an odd error.

What class are you playing? See I can get taking over but the system is really designed to be all about politics and such. Find a place you want, despose of the current ruler and make yourself/party the ruler(s). You may be making this too hard.

Again with crafting you can make more adventuring. 20 gp is garbage when you can loot more in a good dungeon/bounty. And this is a week of messing with something. D&D is not a simulation of real world finance nor enconmy.

[deuxhero]

Why buy a DaVinci when a kindergarden's work is worth the same ?

Because other is also by a kindergardener except he lived in the town of Vinci?

Now buying a Leonardo...

[The Overlord]

Very funny deuxhero.
You know what I mean.

Playing tier gestalt. Currently I'm simply a Sorcerer/Aristocrat. For now.

And yes I know looting gains more quicker, but it comes with the risk of making powerful foes.
Now an extra 9gp per week doesn't seem like much, but it is +2% my current gold. Per week.
If We sail for a month to get to a dungeon, take a week to complete it, sail back; I just made 81 gp regardless of how successful I was in the dungeon.
And that's with a single employee. I could get ten and gain 810 gp instead. Or more skilled ones too.

And when I am thinking as to "Why would they work for Me if I make alot more then they do from their work?", I realize this is always the dynamic between employer and employee. (In theory.)

There is no worker's guild or anything like that so, yes, the workers are getting ripped off. Think early industrial age.
Good thing I'm Lawful Evil.

[katiesaur]

1- According to the rules for Crafting in the PHB; they can easily make over 20 gp per week. Anyone with the skill can.


1-I'm pretty sure the rules for Crafting are meant to apply to PCs more than NPCs. I can't remember where (Cityscape?) but there's a table that outlines how much the average worker makes per week and craftsmen did NOT make 20gp. Also, not everyone with the skill has the necessary funds to buy the materials. Being the boss also means paying the guild fees if they want to be part of a mercantile guild. That's a 25gp entry fee and about 5gp/level in dues every month (Cityscape); perhaps a trained hireling (who is probably a commoner) doesn't have that kind of cash.

[Igneel]

Eh, I don't see much of a problem for my Epic Evil Gestalt character I'm playing that makes multiple Killing Frost of Ghulurak (DMGII, Magical Events pg 115) statues as one of his ways to take over the world. Granted he is a little crazy to plant multiple ice statues of Ice Age producing madness across the world, but it whittles away the innumerable years he's had to live as a vampire. :smallwink:

Maybe you can get some Apprentices (DMGII) to do some of the work for you? If memory serves, they pay you for the education and upon becoming of adequate level they become a cohort/follower.

[SynissterSyster]

:smallsigh: ..... Ask your DM. Seriously all of this is Roleplaying questions. You would Roleplay prices and such. Wow. Just wow.

What level are you? 1-2? If you are seriously thinking of having crafting help you make more money you are playing the wrong game. If you are worring about getting enemies from adventuring then why did you become an adventurer? Retire the PC and have him be a NPC expert crafting things. Seriously. There isn't a good enough reason to say 9 gp is 2% of your current gold and think that crafting is going ot be a jim dandy way of becoming a dominating super power.

I retire from this thread as it hurts my head too much.

[Deophaun]

Why buy a DaVinci when a kindergarden's work is worth the same ?
Because the kindergardener's work will take much, much longer to complete (probably with a -1 or -2 int modifier, no skill ranks, versus someone with a +5 int modifier and likely 20 skill ranks), if it completes at all (remember, failures by five or more make no progress and waste materials).

And while your assistant may, theoretically, make more money on their own, they still need the resources to set up a shop with the appropriate tools and buy the requisite stone/marble/bronze etc. By working for you, you eliminate that expense hurdle.

For bigger jobs, they're going to need some modicum of reputation to gain the interest of a sponsor that wants them to do something like build a giant statue that straddles the city's harbor. If your character is a very skilled artisan, I'm sure there are plenty of aspiring sculptors that would jump at the chance to work under such a prestigious master for that very reason.

[The Overlord]

After talking about it with the other DM (am I one of the DMs, We switch once in a while), We found that a homebrew solution would take everything into consideration, be potentially more lucrative AND scale up with the levels.

Here it is:

1- Choose a DC (multiple of 5 only), then make your Craft check for the week. (Or your hireling's.)

2- Multiply your check result by the DC. (Let's say You had a DC of 15, and You rolled 15 also, that's 225.)

3- Translate that into silver pieces. (So that's 225 sp.)

4- Reduce that amount by 1/3 because of the raw material cost. (So 225 - 75 = 150sp.)

5- Cash in. It IS possible to take 10 on that roll if You want to be prudent about not scraping raw materials. Missing the set DC means no profits. (So that's 15 gp per week that You can scale up.)

Advanced example: So let's say You are ecl 5 and that You have 10 artisans You hired. You have 20 int, 8 ranks, masterwork tools (+2), a workplace giving You a +2 and someone is aiding You (Aid Another +2). That's for a total of +19 to craft.
Your hirelings have 14 int, 4 ranks, masterwork tools (+2), have a workplace (+2) and aid each other (+2). That's for a total of +12 to craft.

You set the DC to 30 for yourself and roll 13. Giving You a result of 32.
You set the DC to 20 for your hirelings and tell them to play it safe and take 10. Giving them a result of 22.

So You make for yourself (32*30)= 960 silver pieces -1/3 (320sp).
Your ten hirelings make for You (22*20)= 440 sp -1/3 (147sp).
Minus their cost (3sp per day = 21sp).
There is ten of them so that's a total of 4400 sp worth of products, 1470 sp cost in raw materials and 210 sp for the cost of the hirelings.

So You make a grand total of : 536 gp worth of objects per week without any risk and only basic stuff.
If You used spells or loot to get the raw materials for free, You don't substract the 1/3 from the profit.
And if they are followers or mind-controlled or whatever, You don't pay hirelings.

BUT this is 536 gp WORTH of OBJECTS.
Now You have to sell them! And it's going to cost You 67.7 gp regardless of sells.

You have two options for that:
1- Sell to a re-seller. He comes to get the merchandise at your shop, so You don't have to move, You don't have to have a shop yourself nor do You need to hire more people to sell.
2- Or have your own shop, build it and hire people to run it.

In the first case: The basic selling price will be 50% the worth of the objects. So in the previous case that's 268 gp. Minus hirelings that's 200.3 gp of profit per week.
However You CAN negotiate a better price using diplomacy or bluff (can take 10 either way) and use: 35 + check result %.
So let's say You negotiate yourself (duh!) with 20 cha, 8 ranks, +2 synergie, +2 aid another for a total of +17 on your roll.
You take 10 on negotiations so You can sell at 62% the worth.
Making You 332.32 gp minus cost of 67.7 gp = 264.62 gold pieces worth of profit per week.

In the second case: You want to maximise profit so You go trough the trouble of buying a shop and having an hireling with You to sell yourself (ideally a good hireling does that for You while You adventure).
Doing this gives You 100% of the worth of the objects the NEXT week after crafting them. So in this case that's 536 gp minus 67.7 gp = 468.3 gp of profit in two weeks.
Or use your skills to sell better: 80 + appraise + diplomacy/bluff %.
So if I take ten on both, with let's say +17 in both skills: That's 114%.
For 611.04 gp minus 67.7 gp = 543.34 gp profit in two weeks.

Not bad at all.
Keep in mind magic enchantments such as charming the clients in the store, creating raw materials for free, enslaving the workers, etc. Using a Nymph as a shop keeper ? Etc. Can drastically increase the profit margin AND increase the DC You can aim at.
Don't forget maximum selling value depends on the city You are at.

So We are going to go with that for our game. What do You think?

[SynissterSyster]

Congrats you are playing an enconomy simulator. Factor in fun and your hungry motives as well as social so your character doesn't get unhappy. If you and the other players are happy with taking the time to become shop then kudos to you. True adveturers will come in, buy your goods, and sell off their crap. You may beam at turning a profit and keeping in the black while true adventurers get loot and gold and fame. Welcome to Wal-Mart® the game. Make sure you have a venerable dwarf with a charisma os 5 as a door greeter.

[Heatwizard]

Yeah, that does seem like a lot of cumbersome rules for a single skill check to grind up some pocket change. A masterwork sword, wrenched from the cooling cadavers of your rivals, is going to get you 300 GP (150 if you only expect to make half upon reselling) for thirty seconds of effort, for comparison. There's not much point being worried about the enemies you might make; you're an adventurer, you're going to have enemies anyway.

I mean, if it works for you, then c'est la vie; the fun police aren't going to bash down your door and raid your game room. But it seems unnecessary.

[SynissterSyster]

Agreed heat/ You are supposed to be going out for your money if you adventure. Now before you go off on world domination if you are in a typical D&D world that is more done with brute force then being Michael Eisner (cookie if you get this). In today's age being Mircosoft® is a boon but in D&D world it won't get you as far as a boot to the head (another cookie for anyone whom gets this). Thank You.

[The Overlord]

Well i agree, however there is several reasons You might still want to go trough that trouble.

Assuming You want to take over the World, that You are Evil and that good currently have the upper-hand.

First of all; The goal is to have that business auto-run. Leaving your character free to adventure and scheme as You like. (I will eventually use golems & undead as secret workers (they are taboo in our setting) and use summoned high-cha, charming, creatures as sellers.)

Second: Cover-ups. Let's say You raid a temple of lawful good for the loot and they notice You suddenly can afford a new fortress. "What's that mister-paladin-ten-levels-ahead-of-Me? How did I get a new fortress? Well, You see, I am running this business here ...."

Third: Get on the good side! Sure being evil and dark and all "Mwahaha" is fun, but if You are going to be that obvious, You aren't gonna take over the capital from within. If You don't want to go the route of "Raise an army of intimidated savages in the wilderness then swarm the capital", You will need to appear good.
And if You get a good chunk of the city's workforce working for You, You hold them by the balls. Enough for You to get a position in court perhaps. Ideal place to assassinate the king.

Fourth: If You appear to be a constructive member of society, the good guys will be less likely to attack You. Even if they do figure out You are behind everything, if killing You means putting the whole city in chaos and poverty, they might just have to let You go for the greater good.

And so on. That's only off the top of my head. Keep in mind; once it auto-runs; You are adventuring like all the others.
Besides DMG2 got a good list of adventures for business.

[SynissterSyster]

Seriously you are going to need a mess of houserules for all this. Plus what happens if you place gets demolished while you are gone, or another evil person takes it over while you are adventuring, or any of another things a DM can throw just because. It is your game and you do as you wish but you are seriously making this too complicated. If you are going through all that just to take over a place then you are more suited for playing an oWoD game then D&D. My opinion.

[Deophaun]

After talking about it with the other DM (am I one of the DMs, We switch once in a while), We found that a homebrew solution would take everything into consideration, be potentially more lucrative AND scale up with the levels.

Here it is:
The only thing homebrew about this is the fact that missing the DC results in no profit. In the actual rules, you have to miss the DC by 5 or more. Otherwise, you can keep adding 10 to the DC to increase the speed of your work (see the Epic Level Handbook). Pick either a high-quality or a complex item to give you the +/-5 to the DC. As long as you don't miss the DC by 5, you make progress (so, if your check is 31, set the DC to 35).

Edit: Nope, wrong. Missing by four or less means no progress. My mistake.

Now You have to sell them! And it's going to cost You 67.7 gp regardless of sells.
And this is why you craft trade goods, like art objects or gems, so that you don't have to sell them. They count as fungible currency.

[The Overlord]

Do trade goods count as currency?
Besides, I'm sticking with Craft (Sculpting) for Golem purposes.