Swordsage help!

[trazwald]

So I'm thinking of playing an unarmed swordsage, and I'd like the playground's input on how to build a swordsage to various power levels.

I don't really plan on grappling much, I'd prefer to focus on strikes, and so far I'd been thinking of using a dex-based character with shadow hand stances and shadow blade to add my dex to damage. That being said, I don't have ToB on me, and I'm not sure if unarmed strikes are shadow hand weapons, so I don't know if this will be something I'll have to get houseruled.

Anyway, I realized while putting this together that it'll take me two feats to be able to use my dex for atk and dmg, and it would be soooo much easier if I could just somehow apply my strength AC! Is there any feat out there that accomplishes this? Do you folks think it would a a reasonable houseruled-feat, providing it only functioned while wearing light or no armor or in certain stances?

I also wanted to get your input on what maneuvers/stances/boosts etc would make a particularly effective swordsage, for the sake of damage output/AC/generally being good in melee. I'm not sure what level of optimization we'll be playing at yet, so I'd like to know what my options are. I'd rather not multiclass, as there are a few high-level maneuvers/stances I'm hoping to get to, though I'm not actually sure the game will run that long...

For any of you familiar with One Piece, I basically want to play as Sanji. I'm going to see if the DM will houserule that I can use Desert Wind maneuvers with unarmed strikes to throw flaming kicks at people, and later on I'll use Shadow Hand stances like Balance on the Sky to fly/walk on air :smallbiggrin:

[Aegis013]

Good news! Unarmed strikes are Shadow Hand weapons.

If you're focused on strikes over grapples, you could either get really big (maybe try to get some natural attacks too) and pummel things into the ground, or try to get really small and use Confound the Bigfolk line. I don't know if either of those are interesting to you, though.

As far as maneuver selection there's a sweet handbook for that: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531

[Malachei]

I'd suggest you get Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage (on top of Str) and get Assassin's Stance.

[Darrin]

I'm going to see if the DM will houserule that I can use Desert Wind maneuvers with unarmed strikes to throw flaming kicks at people

There is no need to houserule this. Any maneuver you could use with a weapon can be used with an unarmed strike.

[Spuddles]

I wouldn't pick up weapon finesse unless you've got more than a +2 difference between str and dex. It's cheaper, gp wise, for low to mid levels to pump two stats at the same time, rather than one.

Strikes that give you multiple attacks are especially useful with shadow blade, assasin's stance, and desert wind boosts.

[FMArthur]

For most light weapons an easy workaround to help the Dexterity featsink is to acquire Feycraft versions of them to grant featless Weapon Finesse (light weapons only of course) to their wielder. Of course this doesn't normally work on unarmed strikes, but...

I think this can be done for warforged using a feycrafted battlefist attachment. Feycraft decreases the weapon's effective size and battlefist increases, so I guess you stay at par.

[trazwald]

Cool, thanks guys!

I was planning on playing a human, but I'm not married to the idea. That said, I don't think I want to go warforged, and while lesser Aasimar is pretty sweet, I'm not sure I want the LA. I also considered being a wild elf for the dex boost.

I wasn't sure if Shadow Blade allowed Dex AND Str to be added for damage, so that's good to know. If I had the following stats, do you think it would be worthwhile to take weapon finesse? Or should I make str and dex more even, just take shadow blade and not worry about the lower AC?

12
16
14
10
16
8

I'll also obviously be taking superior unarmed strike once I can. Damn, that's a lot of feats... weapon finesse (maybe), shadow blade, imp unarmed strike, sup unarmed strike... If I don't play a human I'm gonna have to wait til 9th level to be able to do decent US damage:smallfrown: Looks like weapon finesse is out...

edit: Wow, just looked at Superior Unarmed Strike. 1d6 from 4th-7th, 1d8 8th-11th? Man, it is NOT easy to play an unarmed character... Maybe my DM will let me houserule that I can get a scaling unarmed strike damage (ala monk) as long as I don't use ANY other weapons... Impractical? sure. But I just wanna kick stuff :smalltongue:

[Malachei]

Depends on your ole and whether you have a strong melee character or another skillmonkey in the party.

[Forbiddenwar]

Maybe my DM will let me houserule that I can get a scaling unarmed strike damage (ala monk) as long as I don't use ANY other weapons... Impractical? sure. But I just wanna kick stuff :smalltongue:

No need for a houserule there is a varient in ToB called the unarmed swordsage (UASS) that does just that. And it add the bonus AC Monks get as well.

As for damage, a first level UASS regularly gets 2d6+dex, but note that Shadow blade feat always requires a shadow stance, so you won't be using many of the stances you have access to.

Go Diamond Mind for even more for tohit and dps.

As for impractical? It's one of the best melee classes in 3.5

[Togath]

If your playing an unarmed swordage you wont need superior unarmed strike, as you gain the monks unarmed damage progression.

edit; nevermind, the same thing was said while i was posting

[Spuddles]

Lesser aasimar doesn't have an LA, but is inferior to human for a swordsage, anyway.

With 14 str and 16 dex, I don't think finesse is worth it, unless you plan on having another +4 dex relatively quickly. It's basically like picking up weapon focus. If using shadow blade, I would look a tiger claw discipline for making multiple attacks. Good way to stack up bonus damage.

AC isn't as necessary with shadow hand and setting sun maneuvers, as you can burn immediate actions to gain miss chance or negate attacks. With a chain shirt, and wis and dex to AC, you have 20 AC at level 1. That's fairly decent.

Don't forget to pick improved natural attack for your unarmed strike upon getting +4 BAB.

[Greyfeld85]

You're also going to need the Adaptive Style feat, and should be taken ASAP. Swordsage maneuver recovery blows as-written, and Adaptive Style is sort of a feat tax.

But if you're having that much of a problem with feats, you should consider dipping 2 levels in Fighter. Getting those two extra feats would go a long way in helping your issues with being feat-starved, and you'll only be 1 level behind on getting new maneuvers/stances.

Alternatively, you can take 3 levels in Swashbuckler and 1 in Fighter, which also grants you two extra feats (Weapon Finesse + Bonus Feat), but you also get your Int bonus to your damage rolls. Though I'm not sure how much Int your character is going to have, and this will put you a full rank behind on maneuver progression, so YMMV.

[trazwald]

a first level UASS regularly gets 2d6+dex, but note that Shadow blade feat always requires a shadow stance, so you won't be using many of the stances you have access to.

Ok, it took some digging but i found the adaptation section of the swordsage description in ToB, and it recommends trading armor proficiency for monk uas progression. I'm down with that, but I don't see anything about the 2d6+dex at 1st, or the monk AC bonus. Could you clarify where this comes from please? Thanks again!

[AslanCross]

I wouldn't worry so much about your low unarmed strike damage (even if you do get the Monk's progression if you take the Unarmed Swordsage variant), most of your damage will come from strikes. Ask your DM if you can get Improved Unarmed Strike as part of the package (Monks do, and if the U-Ssg gets the monk progression...).

This would free up room for Snap Kick, which gives you an extra improved unarmed strike. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

[trazwald]

Yeah, I was definitely thinking of throwing snap kick in there at some point, and it's true that with diamond mind strikes I really just need a high concentration. Still, I'd like to be able to do decent damage with just uas...

When I get the chance to talk to the DM I'll ask if he'd be willing to houserule a trade of wpn proficiencies for uas progression and armor proficiency for AC bonus. Yeah I know I don't need to worry too much about AC with baffling defense, cloak of deception etc, but again, I don't want to be COMPLETELY dependent on maneuvers to do anything.

[Forbiddenwar]

Ok, it took some digging but i found the adaptation section of the swordsage description in ToB, and it recommends trading armor proficiency for monk uas progression. I'm down with that, but I don't see anything about the 2d6+dex at 1st, or the monk AC bonus. Could you clarify where this comes from please? Thanks again!

Okay, I was AFB, so I was wrong about the bonus armor. :smallredface:

As for first level, there are a few maneuvers that add a d6 to damage at first level:
Burning Blade
Sapphire nightmare blade
Shadow Blade technique.
Since you only get 4 manuevers at a time, get all three. Between that and the monk's 1d6 damage and the shadow blade feat you can do 2d6+dex per round for 3 rounds. At level one, that's pretty good. It least it is for a nonoptimizing player like me.

Also note that just because you lose the proficiency doesn't mean you can wear armor, just wear armor that has 0 skill check penalty, like leather, chain shirt etc+

Not sure what you mean by you don't want to use maneuvers for everything. That's like saying you want to be a wizard, but don't want to cast spells, better off playing a fighter then.

[trazwald]

Not sure what you mean by you don't want to use maneuvers for everything. That's like saying you want to be a wizard, but don't want to cast spells, better off playing a fighter then.

lol, fair enough.

As for Adaptive style, based on what Greyfeld said I was guessing it allowed a swordsage to regain maneuvers as a warblade would, but after looking it up it seems that in fact, it allows you to re-allocate your readied maneuvers. Does this mean that it also replenishes them? ie. Can I use this feat to re-select all the same maneuvers I already had readied, effectively reloading them all with one full-round action? That seems pretty useful, I'll definitely pick it up.

Since Shadow Blade only grants dex to damage when in a shadow hand stance, it combined with weapon finesse kinda seems like I'm spending two feats in order for my dex to be melee-relevant SOME of the time. I'd really like it if I could find another way to be an unarmored, unarmed melee fighter, and it really seems like the easiest way to do this would be a feat that granted my strength bonus to AC when unarmored or some such. Do you guys think that would be reasonable, given what I intend to do with it?

[Forbiddenwar]

I'd really like it if I could find another way to be an unarmored, unarmed melee fighter, and it really seems like the easiest way to do this would be a feat that granted my strength bonus to AC when unarmored or some such. Do you guys think that would be reasonable, given what I intend to do with it?

There is a common link to a famous post on this forum that lists every possible Ability Modifer to every possible action (I think) I'll dig around.

[phlidwsn]

Here's the actual text block I use for uass in my games:


Unarmed Swordsage adaptation(Tome of Battle): As Swordsage, but lose light armor proficiency, gain the Monk Unarmed Strike class feature(Improved Unarmed Strike, unarmed strike as manufactured & natural weapon, monk damage progression)

Note also the SS gets Wis to AC in light armor only by RAW. Most will be willing to read that as Light or no armor, however.

[Malachei]

There is a common link to a famous post on this forum that lists every possible Ability Modifer to every possible action (I think) I'll dig around.

You probably refer to Person_Man's X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) compilation?