Dark template HiPS

[Gwendol]

Question: I've read on this board there be a difference in HiPS granted by the Dark template and that of the shadowdancer prc. Could someone explain what kt is save for the obvious?
The obvious being that dark hips is (Ex) while shadowdancer hips is (Su). The conditions for applying HiPS are also slightly different, at least in wording.

[Curmudgeon]

You get the benefits stated in each, and nothing more.

Shadowdancer (Su) Hide in Plain Sight works

while being observed
with no hiding place (no cover/concealment needed)
limited to places within 10' of any sort of shadow except the character's

Dark Creature (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight works

while being observed
limited to places that aren't in natural daylight, the area of a Daylight spell, or a similar effect

Notice what's missing in the second one? Not only does it have more restrictions about the illumination conditions, it does nothing to satisfy the Hide requirement for cover/concealment. Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight works as long as there's any sort of shadow nearby (that of a single grain of sand 10' away will do) ─ so, practically speaking, as long as there's any light at all.

Dark Creature HiPS is the weakest version of all of the many abilities with the same name. Shadowdancer HiPS is among the strongest.

[hamishspence]

Note that the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure has an updated version of the Dark template. Which gets HiPS (Su).

[Curmudgeon]

Note that the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure has an updated version of the Dark template. Which gets HiPS (Su).
Also note that that's Faerûn-only. Everywhere else you're stuck with the Tome of Magic version.

[hamishspence]

Quite a few "faerun-only" monsters appeared in other settings in older books, before being reprinted in Monsters of Faerun and others.

A DM importing supposedly "Faerun-only" monsters to other settings that have had them, is perfectly reasonable.

Similar logic can apply to Faerun prestige classes, feats, versions of templates, and so forth.

3.5 actually did include a Faerun PRC in the main DMG book- Red Wizard.

If you can talk your DM into including the Cormyr version of the Dark template- by all means go for it.

[Gwendol]

But isn't that going against the meaning of the word "hide in plain sight"?

The point of the ability is allowing to hide in the open, with no cover, under certain circumstances. I can't imagine why you would call an ability that if all it provides is essentially a free bluff check to distract observers.

I'd contest that all HiPS abilities grants the ability to hide without cover, it's in the name of the ability. Furthermore the ability can be used while observed.

If the ability is (Su) doesn't it eat a standard action to use?

[Chronos]

The Dark template version is the only version of Hide in Plain Sight anywhere that doesn't either provide concealment, remove the need for concealment, or come after an ability that does one of those. My guess is that it was just an editorial oversight, but ask your DM, of course.

And it doesn't actually have more restrictions than the Shadowdancer version, just different restrictions. The Shadowdancer version will not work in total darkness nor in uniform but dim illumination, while the Dark version will work in both those cases. And of course, being Ex rather than Su is nice as well.

Probably the best version of HiPS is the ranger version (also found on Scout and Wilderness variant Rogue), which is Ex and works in any natural setting, regardless of lighting. It doesn't negate the cover requirement itself, but it does come after the Camouflage ability, which does. Unfortunately, so far as I know there's no way to get it earlier than ECL 13.

[Gwendol]

Chronos, I agree with you: the requirements are just different. As for the need for cover, it looks more like an oversight than anything else especially when considering the name of the ability.

[Curmudgeon]

But isn't that going against the meaning of the word "hide in plain sight"?
No, it doesn't. Hide has two requirements, and "in plain sight" is directly matched with the "not being observed" requirement. Hide "without anything to actually hide behind" is what the Supernatural HiPS adds.

If the ability is (Su) doesn't it eat a standard action to use?

Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.
Action: Usually none. The Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight Supernatural ability does "note otherwise" than a standard action by stipulating that it's just a way of using the Hide skill, which has its own action (or lack of action, actually) specification.

[Gwendol]

But hiding in plain sight means you are hiding in the open, with nothing to hide behind. This is both the semantic and in-game meaning of the word. In addition to that the rules says the skill can be used while being observed.

It is a very indirect support you present for claiming nonstandard action needed for (Su) HiPS, do you have any presedence for that interpretation?

[NeoSeraphi]

But hiding in plain sight means you are hiding in the open, with nothing to hide behind. This is both the semantic and in-game meaning of the word. In addition to that the rules says the skill can be used while being observed.

It is a very indirect support you present for claiming nonstandard action needed for (Su) HiPS, do you have any presedence for that interpretation?

Nope. Hiding "In plain sight" does not mean "I hide in full view of a creature". It means "I hide while a creature is watching me."

How else would you explain it being an extraordinary ability? You can't just vanish into thin air (well you can, but that's clearly supernatural, see also invisibility).

Hiding uses the Hide skill. The Hide skill requires you to have cover or concealment, because you can't just stand around in broad daylight and say "Yep, I'm totally hidden". Hide in Plain Sight allows you to ignore the restrictions on hiding while you are being observed (making the Hide skill much more viable in combat) but it's not some kind of at-will invisibility power. (Except for the Shadowdancer's.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Which is one of the things that makes the Greater Blurring armor special ability from MIC so nice; it's continuous concealment.

[moritheil]

Nope. Hiding "In plain sight" does not mean "I hide in full view of a creature". It means "I hide while a creature is watching me."


Moby Thesaurus words for "in plain sight":
aboveboard, apparent, before one, beholdable, detectable,
discernible, disclosed, evident, exposed, exposed to view,
face to face, hanging out, in broad daylight, in evidence,
in full view, in open court, in plain view, in public,
in public view, in the marketplace, in the open, in view, insight,
manifest, naked, noticeable, observable, on the table, open,
open to view, openly, outcropping, overtly, perceivable,
perceptible, publicly, recognizable, revealed, seeable, showing,
to be seen, unclouded, unconcealed, undisguised, unhidden,
viewable, visible, visual, witnessable


How else would you explain it being an extraordinary ability? You can't just vanish into thin air (well you can, but that's clearly supernatural, see also invisibility).

Maybe you're just that good at knowing how people look at things. But let's put that aside - why should the burden of proof be on proving that one HiPS works like another? Shouldn't it be easier to assume that HiPS is generally the same, and put the burden of proof on the argument that different HiPS are really different, as opposed to just interacting with AMF differently?


Hide in Plain Sight allows you to ignore the restrictions on hiding while you are being observed (making the Hide skill much more viable in combat) but it's not some kind of at-will invisibility power. (Except for the Shadowdancer's.)

Clearly not. It involves a skill check.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always fluff it as feinting and then moving into someone's blind spot so they can no long see them. It is super human, but so is D&D. Also, Hajime no Ippo did it!

[NeoSeraphi]

The ability is very clear. It says "You may use the Hide skill while being observed".


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

There are two conditions that must be fulfilled in order to hide. One is that you must have cover or concealment. The other is that you may not currently be observed by any creature (it's kind of odd that the official wording is "people", but we'll ignore that).

The RAW is clear. You still need cover to Hide in Plain Sight, which is why you can get the dark template for only a scant 22,000 gp with the collar of umbral metamorphosis. HiPS by itself isn't that great.

[olentu]

Quite a few "faerun-only" monsters appeared in other settings in older books, before being reprinted in Monsters of Faerun and others.

A DM importing supposedly "Faerun-only" monsters to other settings that have had them, is perfectly reasonable.

Similar logic can apply to Faerun prestige classes, feats, versions of templates, and so forth.

3.5 actually did include a Faerun PRC in the main DMG book- Red Wizard.

If you can talk your DM into including the Cormyr version of the Dark template- by all means go for it.

The fact that it is in a realms book is significantly less important then that it is in a published adventure.

[Gwendol]

Nope. Hiding "In plain sight" does not mean "I hide in full view of a creature". It means "I hide while a creature is watching me."


I think you are wrong about that. My understanding of those words is what seems to be the generally accepted meaning:

Thesaurus words for "in plain sight":
aboveboard, apparent, before one, beholdable, detectable,
discernible, disclosed, evident, exposed, exposed to view,
face to face, hanging out, in broad daylight, in evidence,
in full view, in open court, in plain view, in public,
in public view, in the marketplace, in the open, in view, insight,
manifest, naked, noticeable, observable, on the table, open,
open to view, openly, outcropping, overtly, perceivable,
perceptible, publicly, recognizable, revealed, seeable, showing,
to be seen, unclouded, unconcealed, undisguised, unhidden,
viewable, visible, visual, witnessable

meaning that the ability describes a way to hide without cover "in the open". That it also allows the character to hide while being observed is essentially icing on the cake.
The conditions of the ability describes in what terrain, light, etc the creature may attempt to hide (without cover/concealment). To hide while being observed is close to trivial to counter (a bluff check, and hiding with a moderate penalty), while hiding in the open is not easily achieved without magic.

[Malachei]

One advantage the (Ex) has over the (Su) is that it is not affected by Antimagic Field etc.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, that too.

[NeoSeraphi]

Just because you think the name suggests otherwise, it doesn't change the text of the ability.

Here's an example. The ranger's HiPS:



Hide in Plain Sight

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.


It just says "Can use the Hide skill even while being observed." That's all. The ranger has a completely different ability that lets him use the Hide skill without cover or concealment. So they're not the same thing. Arguing that the name makes it sound like it should do something else than what its text describes is like arguing that Evasion should allow a character to move from his square or that Diamond Body should grant you DR/Adamantine like a construct. Sometimes Wizards of the Coast just sucks at naming things.


Edit:

To hide while being observed is close to trivial to counter (a bluff check, and hiding with a moderate penalty), while hiding in the open is not easily achieved without magic.

Exactly. That's why HiPS is not worth that much, monetarily speaking. That's why the dark template is only a +1 LA. If the ability allowed you to Hide without cover or concealment and Hide while being observed, it would be much stronger, probably at least a +2 LA and no item could replicate it for you.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but my point is this: reading the text it actually says:

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed

Notice the lack of qualifiers other than the environment. This unconditionally states that the ranger can use the hide skill in natural terrain even when observed, period. There is nothing about cover, concealment or anything else. The ability overrides the normal use of the skill and the description of the ability is self-contained. In some of the other HiPS descriptions it is further detailed that this ability negates the need for cover or concealment, but that isn't really necessary.
And again, it is not that powerful an ability since it is an opposed skill check, etc, and for those variants that are supernatural eats a standard action.

[Curmudgeon]

Notice the lack of qualifiers other than the environment. This unconditionally states that the ranger can use the hide skill in natural terrain even when observed, period. There is nothing about cover, concealment or anything else. The ability overrides the normal use of the skill and the description of the ability is self-contained.
You're making a lot of claims, but with no rules text to back those claims.
Camouflage (Ex)

A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. There is no mention of cover/concealment for Ranger Hide in Plain Sight because

that ability doesn't deal with the issue, and
another ability, which the Ranger has necessarily already acquired, does deal with it.
There is no override. Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight separately address the two requirements to use the Hide skill.

[Gwendol]

Likewise. You're adding on extra requirements to an ability without clear rules support. And you still haven't explained how (Su) HiPS works without spending a standard action.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Likewise. You're adding on extra requirements to an ability without clear rules support. And you still haven't explained how (Su) HiPS works without spending a standard action.

He did explain it. It's because HiPS becomes a sort of add-on to the hide skill, allowing a character to use it in a way previously not possible. The action required to use the hide skill? Usually none, or part of a move action.

[NeoSeraphi]

Likewise. You're adding on extra requirements to an ability without clear rules support. And you still haven't explained how (Su) HiPS works without spending a standard action.

How is he adding on "extra" requirements? The Hide skill states, plainly, that there are two requirements to use it. You're jumping to the conclusion that because it says "You can use the Hide skill", you automatically fulfill all requirements, even though the rest of that sentence says "even while being observed", clearly only overriding a single one of the two requirements.

The Shadowdancer is a supernatural character who is able to disappear into shadows. A dark creature does not get that ability. It is able to Hide, sure, but you can't just Hide behind air.

[Gwendol]

A dark creature is a native of the plane of shadows, thus clearly not normal in the realm of the material plane... not sure what you are getting at?

I'm not jumping to any conclusion, I'm reading the description of the ability. This is what it says; anything in addition to that is your interpretation of that particular form of HiPS, which is fine, but I wanted to know if there was anything more substantial to support that interpretation, which apparantly there isn't.

[Curmudgeon]

The Shadowdancer is a supernatural character who is able to disappear into shadows.
Just wanted to point out that the main Supernatural effect is to disappear even when near a shadow ─ i.e., without even the shadow to hide behind.

[Gwendol]

Just wanted to point out that the main Supernatural effect is to disappear even when near a shadow ─ i.e., without even the shadow to hide behind.

Yes, that is clearly supernatural, in contrast with the extraordinary ability of dark creatures, or that of a ranger.

[Gwendol]

He did explain it. It's because HiPS becomes a sort of add-on to the hide skill, allowing a character to use it in a way previously not possible. The action required to use the hide skill? Usually none, or part of a move action.

I don't find that to be a very strong argument, but after considering the consequences of the alternative this clearly is the better ruling.

[Fooliscious]

So...if some sort of cover or concealment is required to HiPS, the skill makes no sense. You are standing next to a low wall. Someone sees you. You HiPS. You are suddenly gone to their eyes? And the person you are hiding from wouldn't think he just blinked and you ducked behind the wall, going over to check anyway?

The way I take the cormyr version is that since it's only usuable in non-bright light, you just kind of fade into the background darkness, making you too hard to make out to spot.

[Chronos]

Personally, I think that the Dark HiPS should remove the need for concealment, and that it's just an oversight that it doesn't, and would rule that way if I were DMing... But that doesn't change the fact that, by the rules as written, it doesn't, and to rule that it does is a houserule. Just because something is a reasonable houserule, doesn't mean that you shouldn't acknowledge that it's a houserule.

[Answerer]

So...if some sort of cover or concealment is required to HiPS, the skill makes no sense. You are standing next to a low wall. Someone sees you. You HiPS. You are suddenly gone to their eyes? And the person you are hiding from wouldn't think he just blinked and you ducked behind the wall, going over to check anyway?

The way I take the cormyr version is that since it's only usuable in non-bright light, you just kind of fade into the background darkness, making you too hard to make out to spot.
Hiding only gives you Concealment anyway. It's not like the guy forgot where you were; it's that he can't see you now and doesn't know for sure which way you went.

Also, Curmudgeon is absolutely correct on this matter. It's infuriating to me that Wizards would make so many different versions of the same (named) ability, but they did and you have to keep track of them.

I also think basic Hide is so restricted as to be effectively useless, which makes Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight requirements for any sort of stealthy character. Anything that is required for a basic character concept is something that I want to make easily available in my campaign, so I houserules Dark to being not-useless by including Camouflage in it too. That makes the Ranger and Shadowdancer much less useful, but to be honest they're not particularly good classes anyway; I don't want to strong-arm people into them.

[Curmudgeon]

So...if some sort of cover or concealment is required to HiPS, the skill makes no sense. You are standing next to a low wall. Someone sees you. You HiPS. You are suddenly gone to their eyes? And the person you are hiding from wouldn't think he just blinked and you ducked behind the wall, going over to check anyway?
It's all sensible. Yes, you probably have used the available cover to Hide. But did you move along that wall to a different spot? Because of Hide in Plain Sight and your successful check, the enemy who was watching you like a hawk now has to guess. They can blindly attack the square where they lost sight of you, or use their turn moving to where they'll have cover-free line of sight to that location and hope to Spot you again. Either way, you've made it hard for them to hit you with a successful full attack or a targeted spell.