Looking for help for Archer Cleric 3.5 Core only

[Farcross]

Hi everyone,
I'm prepping for an upcoming 3.5 Campaign, and the DM has said Core only, but the thought of having Cleric Archer has me hooked. I know the usual advice is to take Zen Archery, but I'm wondering if someone has any advice about what to do when it's not an option.

I've been going through many builds and leafing through the cleric / domains, and this is what I have so far.

Race: Human
Classes @ 20: Cleric 18, Ranger 2
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Deity: None
Domains: War (Longbow), Travel

Class Level progress would likely be:
1: Clr
2: Rgr
3: Clr
4: Rgr
5-20: Clr

I figure that my Feats path in the first few levels would be something like: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (1), Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain, and the martial weapon proficiency) Quicken Spell (3), Rapid Shot (Ranger 2)

Starting abilities (I hope at least, because we'll be rolling) would be:
Str: 10
Dex: 14+
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis:16+
Char: 10

With the intention of getting Wisdom up to 19 for 9th level spells, and the other two in Dex or Con.

Would it be possible? Is there anything you would do differently in my case? Aside from going Melee Cleric which is my fall back should this not work at all.

[eggs]

Unless you're tied to the skill element of the Ranger, straight Cleric would be more effective at doing the same thing - in Core, its feat slots aren't exactly in high demand.

As long as it has Rapid Shot at level 1 and Quicken at level 9, a Cleric's about as good at doing damage as a core mundane build. And it still has all the effects to do things like battlefield control, buff negation, summons, etc.

[Farcross]

The Ranger two was really just for the free Rapid Shot feat and extra skill points.

So if I scrapped the Ranger multiclass, changed the feat path to be Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (1), Weapon Focus: Longbow (War Domain, and the martial weapon proficiency), Rapid Shot (3), Quicken Spell (6), and maybe Extended Spell (9)?

[Vladislav]

Can switch around Wis and Dex. You will mostly cast buffing spells, so don't worry about save DCs. Dex, on the other hand, is directly tied to your longbow. You know, the one you're using to attack three times per round ...

[Fineous Orlon]

Quicken spell is not a big deal before 9th level, you have it pegged at 6th. Disagree with previous poster, who seems to imply you are mis-emphasizing wisdom vs. dex. A 19 in Wisdom is a good idea as you have written.

[Farcross]

But in order to cast the 9th level spells, you need a minimum of 19 according to the book true? I figured I'd want to get that up to the appropriate level and then fill in with Dex and any gear that offers Dex

[Vladislav]

But in order to cast the 9th level spells, you need a minimum of 19 according to the book true? I figured I'd want to get that up to the appropriate level and then fill in with Dex and any gear that offers DexBy the time your level is sufficient for casting 9th level spells, you will have plenty of cash to buy Wisdom-increasing items. That 19 is easily achievable even when starting with 14 or 12. It's just that Dex will be more important to you in a typical situation.

[Farcross]

By the time your level is sufficient for casting 9th level spells, you will have plenty of cash to buy Wisdom-increasing items. That 19 is easily achievable even when starting with 14 or 12. It's just that Dex will be more important to you in a typical situation.

Ah I see, I didn't take items into account. Is there a specific Dex score I should be aiming for? Or is it just a matter of Wis 14, Dex as high as you can go, use items to buff Wis at Level 12+?

[Farcross]

Quicken spell is not a big deal before 9th level, you have it pegged at 6th. Disagree with previous poster, who seems to imply you are mis-emphasizing wisdom vs. dex. A 19 in Wisdom is a good idea as you have written.

Thanks for that advice, I'll move that off to the 9th level then.

[Fineous Orlon]

By the time your level is sufficient for casting 9th level spells, you will have plenty of cash to buy Wisdom-increasing items. That 19 is easily achievable even when starting with 14 or 12. It's just that Dex will be more important to you in a typical situation.

Dex is quite helpful.

Clerical combat awesomeness comes from spells. Wisdom 18 raised to 20 by level 8 pays off nicely for clerics, as it delivers the combat awesomeness spells in greater numbers sooner.

This choice also enables good low-level debuff, like a good DC on sound burst.

In general, I have found that bonus spells at low levels ALWAYS pay good dividends.

Dex as a second choice works fine in this build, especially with a predetermined wisdom target, whereupon you advance whatever physical abilities you wish.

[Fineous Orlon]

Ah I see, I didn't take items into account. Is there a specific Dex score I should be aiming for? Or is it just a matter of Wis 14, Dex as high as you can go, use items to buff Wis at Level 12+?

This path can be followed, but you will need a wisdom of 15 by cleric level 9 to access 5th level spells. For instance, the spell True Seeing is believed to help keep archer types happier.

At 11th, your character should already have a wisdom of 16 for 6th level spells. Heal is so very useful, it should be usable as soon as the class permits [11th level cleric, for instance].

Mucking about with a low wisdom is frequently an unnecessary risk, and may involve assumptions your DM might not cotton to. One of these untoward assumptions might be, "of course you can get a +4 or +6 wisdom item when you NEED one...". Your character will suck as a cleric-archer without access to the spells, so get the wisdom to get the spells.

[Diarmuid]

What human God with War domain has the Longbow as the favored weapon?

[Farcross]

What human God with War domain has the Longbow as the favored weapon?



Deity: None
Domains: War (Longbow), Travel


According to the PHB, a cleric can instead choose not to have a deity and instead represent a spiritual belief or idea, still allowing them to choose two domains and benefit from their domain powers, as long as their alignment doesn't conflict (Lawful, Chaotic, Good, Evil).

[Telonius]

Well, there are a couple ways of getting Bow proficiency. A level of Ranger would do it. So would being an Elf, or a cleric of a Cause (War Domain/Bow Proficiency; unfortunately the only Core deity with Longbow doesn't have the War domain). You could also get it with Lesser or Greater Bracers of Archery, though that's not helpful for the lowest levels.

Personally I don't think that one (or even two) levels of Ranger is that terrible of an idea. You do get proficiency, making the Bracers work even better for you. You also get a few nice Core spells on your list (Nondetection, Cat's Grace, Greater/Magic Fang, Spike Growth) that would either be unavailable or only available through domains to a normal Cleric. You can't cast them directly, but you wouldn't have to UMD them if you have a wand, and an easy-ish check if you have a scroll.

However, do note that if you're taking Ranger for the bonus Rapid Shot Feat, that it only works if you're in Light armor or unarmored. Chain Shirt is most likely going to be your best armor at lowest levels. I'd suggest Cloistered Cleric, but until you get Divine Power the low BAB might hurt worse than the skills, domains, and Lore would help. (EDIT: And that's even if your DM considers all SRD materials to be core).

EDIT2: Also, if Cloistered Cleric is off the table, make sure your first level is a level in Ranger. It's a difference of 16 skill points.

[Downysole]

make sure your first level is a level in Ranger. It's a difference of 16 skill points.

I think that this point can't be made well enough. The skill points alone are very good for that first level of ranger, but you also get the bow proficiency that you would otherwise have to find a god to fit in core. Your level 1 feats are more applicable if you have to play at that level also.

The ranger spells are pretty cool too.

[Tamer Leon]

I built a character like this once. First two levels were in Swordsage, as I recall. Also bought off the Saint Template and took Zen Archery, for absolute minimum MAD. Combined with an Energy Bow and the DM being generous enough to let me use Maneuvers with a ranged weapon, I had a pretty good thing going with that build. +Wis to attack rolls, damage rolls, twice to AC, and Evil creatures being unable to approach me while shooting bolts of light at them from a safe distance felt really awesome.

Probably not the most optimal build though.

[nedz]

Unless 1 Favoured Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy and a few skill points are important to you: you could just dip fighter 1 for Rapid Shot. This only costs you 1 level of spell casting.

[ericgrau]

Without non-core backup you need quicken badly. So the ranger levels are a bad idea. You might try an elf, or better yet wood elf if allowed. Maybe human to get extend spell earlier, especially if you have weapon wielding allies to buff.

1: Point Blank Shot
3: Rapid Shot
6: Precise Shot
9: Quicken Spell (need for divine favor)
12: Extend Spell (for greater magic weapon, or blow 11,000 gp on a rod)
15: Improved Precise Shot
18: Any

Buff allies too if you can. Boots of speed for haste are key and lesser bracers of archery are helpful. A buckler doesn't help much but it doesn't hurt. At only 3,000 gp you might get a lesser rod of extend spell for level 2-3 buffs. Carry arrows of various metal types for DR and bane arrows for common foes.

Notable spells to get: bless (if weapon heavy party), shield other (you don't tend to take many hits anyway and you have a good reflex save for area damage), magic vestment, prayer, greater magic weapon, air walk, [quicken] divine power, quicken divine favor, heroes' feast.

In core the cleric archer doesn't really take off until quicken divine power at level 15, so don't be afraid to be a team player and buff allies too with area buff spells, or give them priority on greater magic weapon and so on. Likewise don't waste a combat round on divine power just to brag about your stats; your overall damage will usually go down not up especially early combat when it matters most. Save it for the buff round if you get one. If you play cooperatively you'll not only be more friendly you'll be more effective.

[Eldariel]

Without non-core backup you need quicken badly. So the ranger levels are a bad idea. You might try an elf, or better yet wood elf if allowed. Maybe human to get extend spell earlier, especially if you have weapon wielding allies to buff.

1: Point Blank Shot
3: Rapid Shot
6: Precise Shot
9: Quicken Spell (need for divine favor)
12: Extend Spell (for greater magic weapon, or blow 11,000 gp on a rod)
15: Improved Precise Shot
18: Any

Buff allies too if you can. Boots of speed for haste are key and lesser bracers of archery are helpful. A buckler doesn't help much but it doesn't hurt. At only 3,000 gp you might get a lesser rod of extend spell for level 2-3 buffs. Carry arrows of various metal types for DR and bane arrows for common foes.

Notable spells to get: bless (if weapon heavy party), shield other (you don't tend to take many hits anyway and you have a good reflex save for area damage), magic vestment, prayer, greater magic weapon, air walk, [quicken] divine power, quicken divine favor, heroes' feast.

In core the cleric archer doesn't really take off until quicken divine power at level 15, so don't be afraid to be a team player and buff allies too with area buff spells, or give them priority on greater magic weapon and so on. Likewise don't waste a combat round on divine power just to brag about your stats; your overall damage will usually go down not up especially early combat when it matters most. Save it for the buff round if you get one. If you play cooperatively you'll not only be more friendly you'll be more effective.

This is mostly it; once you get Quicken Divine Favor, you're quite competitive with stock Fighter (though if they have access to GMW too, they're slightly ahead GDF Cleric). Wood Elf is probably the way to go simply because of the free Longbow Proficiency and alleviating your MAD somewhat by buffing two key stats (at the cost of one important stat and one dump), though I suppose War-domain is decent too; free Weapon Focus doesn't really hurt in Core. You need Str and Dex so go high on both; Str is your damage and Dex is your To Hit. Wis is your casting stat still; Wood Elf is the natural race choice.

Cha is your dump and Int is largely irrelevant too (Concentration will be your one skill to max, of course, if you go under 2/Level). Wis, Dex and Str are all massively important and Con moderately so; while you are a Cleric, and have a decent HD and good Fort-saves while acting in safely so you might be able to make do with 12 base (makes it a priority to get a +Con item, of course).


As an addendum to combat tactics, surprise rounds are an excellent time to cast Divine Power (and since Spot is Wis-based and you have a racial bonus, even without ranks you're decent at it) since you only miss out on a single attack that way (as opposed to a full Rapid Shot full attack). Same with rounds on which you'd take evasive action or move anyways; in general, if you're limited to Standard Action, you generally should cast a spell instead of attacking (though if you take Manyshot later and somehow end up within 30' of your target after your Move, that's another action worth considering). When you get level 7 spells I'd make sure to prepare at least 1 Divine Power daily. Also, on level 8 Greater Magic Weapon becomes more or less a must as a constant buff.

Also note some of the spells Domains offer you; War has useful granted power, but Trickery and Travel have some of the best spells (well, Animal has Shapechange on level 9 but level 9 spells probably aren't the reason you should be picking Domains); Travel Granted Power is also a lifesaver for anyone mobile (Grapple'B'Gone among others). And if you have the points, Hide is a wonderful skill for an archer. Luck Granted Power is absolutely wonderful, of course; make that Natural 1s on Save vs. Finger of Death go away. You're pumping your Wis so don't forget about combat magic either and never leave home without at least one Dispel prepared.

The trinity of short duration buffs that you'll ultimately strive to cast with will be Divine Power, Righteous Might and Divine Favor. Those are three potent personal buffs (Righteous Might will reduce your accuracy but significantly increases your damage so it'll be worth it eventually; last of the 3 to cast and only when you can cast all, tho); if you get a surprise round, you can standard action + quicken and next round quicken + full attack. Otherwise it's trickier to get them all on; obviously Divine Power takes priority and Divine Favor should be quickened once possible. Quicken Divine Power + Full Attack -> Quicken Divine Favor + Full Attack is probably the optimal sequence in the lategame. Obviously you'll always have Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment (enhanced by Strand of Prayer Beads with Bead of Karma for +4 CL) on you at all times, alongside the other buffs.

[ericgrau]

If you can't get weapon focus via a domain I'd be tempted to dip 1 level of fighter for the feat. Or at least replace extend spell with weapon focus at level 12 and blow the gold on a rod of extend. As painful as it is to delay your quickened buffs by one level, so is a -1. I mean it's -1 for 11 levels vs. -3 at level 9 only and -4 at level 15 only. The first case is worse, more so when you get a buffing round and don't need the quicken. The exception might be in a party with lots of weapon users whom you also buff with spells.