Bird-Riding Paladin Advice

[Flash1191]

After a year away, I'm going to be spending the summer playing D&D with some friends. We're picking up where we left off, but the DM has given us permission to modify our characters. I was playing a paladin, and I would like to continue doing so, but with some significant changes.

What I'd like to do is make a paladin with a giant eagle/owl mount, and be at least passingly effective inside and out of dungeons. I want to fight while riding the bird, but also not become useless when we go into dungeons too small for that to happen.

I don't necessarily need a full build or anything of that sort, but I'd like recommendations for feats/equipment for myself and the mount.

Other Questions
Would a Shrink Collar (A&EG pg. 80) be worthwhile for taking the bird inside dungeons?
Would you recommend the Giant Eagle or Giant Owl?

Notes
Human
Paladin 8 (planning on going straight paladin)
Low-op group (blaster wizard and healbot cleric)

[jara]

i like this idea.

you could use the vantage point and maneuverability of the mount to be a bow guy, maybe with the feats serenity and zen archery [those are the ones that base everything off wis, right?] if you wanted to invest towards that and be less MAD. you could also go the traditional charger paladin mount build, and use a valorous lance while mounted for a decent bit of damage. i think one of the feats for the second option there would be spirited charge, double damage on a charge, triple with a lance.

if you look at the stats, eagle and owl are almost exactly the same. i think eagle has a bit more movement and the flyby attack feat, and owls have some better skills and the wingover feat. if only for the imagery of a shining paladin mounted on a majestic eagle, i would go for the eagle.

after looking at that collar, i'd say go for it. most dungeons don't consistently have space for a large magical beast to hog up its hallways, so getting them to be small would be a good investment. although for that i'd suggest a weapon other than the lance, perhaps the greatsword.

[Particle_Man]

I would recommend a ring of feather falling, since "target the bird" could be an enemy tactic.

[Flash1191]

The Ring of Feather Falling is a great suggestion. I'll be sure to get one.

I like the idea of charging, so I think I'll go for the Spirited Charge feat/Valorous Lance item combo for quadruple damage.

So, playing as a human, I would have 4 feats at level 8.
Human: Power Attack
1: Mounted Combat
3: Ride By Attack
6: Spirited Charge

Is it worth the feat investment? Paladins don't get many feats, but I haven't seen anything that stands out as being essential to take.

And the bird would have 3 feats (1+1/3 8HD).
1: Improved Flight
2: Flyby Attack
3: Diving Charge

Would this work? Like I said, I don't need it to be amazingly powerful, just functional.

[Larkas]

I recommend taking a look at the hippogriff. It is available at level 6 (versus level 7 on the eagle) at the expense of Evasion and a racial hit die. You might be losing more than you would gain if you intend to keep playing this game for an extended time, though. Just keep in mind that it would jump to the next level category at level 9 (this gaining HD, Natural Armor, Str Adjustment, Int 7 and Improved Speed) , versus level 10 on the eagle.

[Flickerdart]

Give the bird Deflect Arrows. Some genius is going to try shooting it out of the sky, and then you will laugh at them forever.

[The Succubus]

Well, if it's something small like a budgie or a parakeet, it shouldn't be too much trouble but if you've got something like a giant eagle or a roc, it's not going to be travelling very fast as the paladin crawls along the floor. =/

[Flash1191]

Well, if it's something small like a budgie or a parakeet, it shouldn't be too much trouble but if you've got something like a giant eagle or a roc, it's not going to be travelling very fast as the paladin crawls along the floor. =/

I'm not sure what this is about... Could you elaborate please?

[The Succubus]

I'm just saying that if the bird is riding a paladin, it needs to be a very small bird. Paladins don't make good mounts.

[Flickerdart]

I'm just saying that if the bird is riding a paladin, it needs to be a very small bird. Paladins don't make good mounts.
It's a bird-riding paladin, not a bird riding-paladin. Your attempt at pedantry has failed. :smallamused:

[gallagher]

I'm just saying that if the bird is riding a paladin, it needs to be a very small bird. Paladins don't make good mounts.

awakened warhorse paladin?

[Drelua]

There's a prestige class you could look at from Champions of Valor that focuses on riding a Dire Hawk. I haven't really looked at it on a while, but I think it has a bunch of class features that help protect against the 'attack the bird' tactic. You might have to get your DM to waive the fluff requirements since you're probably not in the Forgotten realms, but I remember it striking me as a pretty good class. I'm not sure how good it is for a paladin, but it does get some cool SLAs like spell turning.

[F.H. Zebedee]

There's a feat chain Tunnel Fighting->Tunnel Riding from Races of Stone, which makes it so that you and your mount don't take penalties for squeezing through tight spaces. It's a bit feat intensive, but it means in the standard 10x10 corridors, you can still put up a decent fight and don't have to dismount.

[Rhaegar14]

The Skylord PrC out of Book of Exalted Deeds does exactly this. However, I will ask; is your heart set on a bird-like mount, or just a flying mount? Because a Draconic mount is as easy as one feat (namely, Dragon Steed, Draconomicon page 105), while getting a bird mount can be significantly harder. There's also the Drakkensteed Mount ACF out of Dragon Magic, which doesn't eat up a feat but also can't allow you to ride a true dragon at higher levels.

If I recall, most of the giant flying birds are magical beasts, which means Wild Cohort will not help you, but if it will, Wild Cohort can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

[Madara]

There are the really cheap magic horseshoes.
You could have a flying anything :smallbiggrin:

[Flash1191]

The Skylord PrC out of Book of Exalted Deeds does exactly this. However, I will ask; is your heart set on a bird-like mount, or just a flying mount? Because a Draconic mount is as easy as one feat (namely, Dragon Steed, Draconomicon page 105), while getting a bird mount can be significantly harder. There's also the Drakkensteed Mount ACF out of Dragon Magic, which doesn't eat up a feat but also can't allow you to ride a true dragon at higher levels.

If I recall, most of the giant flying birds are magical beasts, which means Wild Cohort will not help you, but if it will, Wild Cohort can be found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

The giant eagle is actually a core option for a paladin mount. They have to wait an extra level or two, but it's in the DMG. So no worries there.

And I would like to stick to the idea of a giant bird for now. It's quite possible that I'll be getting a dragon mount later, but that would be too much spotlight-theft for this group at this level.

[Rhaegar14]

While I respect your intent, you aren't riding a dragon, you're riding the secret lovechild of a pegasus and a dragon until about level 15. Just for the sake of information.

[Gwendol]

I suggest looking at the Aglorandan Griffon rider PrC. Levels stack with paladin, and the griffon can thus be taken as a paladin mount. It's a fairly crappy five level PrC, but a 1-2 level dip is worth it for the mount. The griffon is awsome and looks cool too.

The dire hawk riding PrC is the Moonsea Sky sentinel. They have some interesting properties, such as spell reflection, that may be of real use for you, but AFAIK it does not stack with paladin, which my prove problematic.

[Drelua]

I suggest looking at the Aglorandan Griffon rider PrC. Levels stack with paladin, and the griffon can thus be taken as a paladin mount. It's a fairly crappy five level PrC, but a 1-2 level dip is worth it for the mount. The griffon is awsome and looks cool too.

The dire hawk riding PrC is the Moonsea Sky sentinel. They have some interesting properties, such as spell reflection, that may be of real use for you, but AFAIK it does not stack with paladin, which my prove problematic.

I knew there was a griffon riding Prestige class somewhere! When I found Moonsea Skysentinel, I thought I'd just remembered wrong. I did notice that it says your Dire Hawk can't also be an animal companion, but doesn't mention Paladin mounts. Does that mean it works, or is there some sort of Paladin's Mount/Animal Companion equivalency clause that I missed?:smallbiggrin:

[Gwendol]

I don't think the dire hawk can automatically become your special mount, but it is perhaps something to bring up with the DM?
As for the griffon that is clearly laid out to be the case.

[Larkas]

One thing to keep in mind: if grounded, Giant Eagles and Giant Owls are fairly useless, with a ground speed of only 10ft. That shouldn't come up too often, though.

[Darrin]

Other Questions
Would a Shrink Collar (A&EG pg. 80) be worthwhile for taking the bird inside dungeons?


Yes and no.

First, it's pricey. For a little more gold, you could get a Phylactery of Change instead (11200 GP, A&EG p. 135), and get all-day polymorph up to 7HD. This would allow your mount to polymorph into something that's both smaller *and* combat-worthy. I'm not entirely sure how to convince your DM that you can train your mount to use the Phylactery, though.

Second, yes, smaller mounts are easier to navigate through dungeons, but the size reduction will most likely make your mount completely useless in combat, and you'll have to devote a lot more resources to just keep it from turning into a bloody smear. Presumably you can put on/take off the collar as conditions allow, but this eats into your action economy, particularly if your mount blows its Will save and panics (not an issue for a special mount).



Would you recommend the Giant Eagle or Giant Owl?


I think Fly-By Attack is better than Wingover, although teaching your Giant Eagle to do interesting things with that standard action could be tricky... however, if it is your paladin's special mount, it has a higher Int than most animals, and you could try convincing your DM that it can learn ToB maneuvers. The Giant Eagle also gets evasion, although that's a moot point if it's a special mount.

Same stats, same AC, same attacks, but the Giant Eagle has a slightly faster fly speed. The only other notable difference is the Giant Owl has a better Listen check (+17), which is much more effective for pinpointing invisbile creatures, but most DMs call for way more Spot checks than Listen, so the Giant Eagle's Spot check (+15) is more likely to help more often. The Giant Eagle also has Sense Motive (a frequently under-appreciated skill) and Survival, so it can feed itself on a DC 10 and another person for each 2 points above the target DC.

I'd go with the Giant Eagle.

Give it a Pearl of Speech (600 GP, MIC) so it can activate command-word items, and then a Talisman of the Disk (500 GP, MIC) for a floating sidecar (when within 3' of the ground).



Notes
Human
Paladin 8 (planning on going straight paladin)


Some flying-mount related PrCs:

Aglarondan Griffonrider (Unapproachable East)
Dragonrider (Draconomicon)
Great Rift Skyguard (Races of Faerun)
Knight of the Flying Hunt (Champions of Valor)
Moonsea Sky Sentinel (Champions of Valor)
Skylord (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Windrider (Masters of the Wild)
Zhentarim Skymage (Lords of Darkness)

None of those really jump out as "must get!", though.

[gbprime]

Moonsea Sky Sentinel

at 8th level you have Shield and Spell Turning, both of which protect your mount as well. Plus your advanced Dire Hawk mount has 9 hit dice and clearly specifies that it has MAXIMUM HIT POINTS. That's 108 HP, folks. And it gains hit dice at 4, 7, and 10 in the class.

[gallagher]

as for any flying mount, as many people have pointed out, you can get an item that will allow it to fly.

with that in mind, i suggest taking ashworm dragoon levels, figure out how to put horseshoes on it, and go to town on your flying, burrowing giant worm from Dune/Beetlejuice

name it Ekans

[Aeryr]

Aglarondan Griffonrider (Unapproachable East)


Is personally my favourite for a level dip gives you flyby attack and progresses your special mount turning it into a griphon (and giving an extra level).

I do agree that none of them are fantabulous. But paladin is just so shoehorned into an ubercharger and imo the pouncing griffon is probably one of the best mounts for that.

If I wanted a giant eagle I'll probably pick Moonsea Sky Sentinel, it has great defensive class features.

The flying ashworm dragon is also... quite crazy, maybe a winged template?

[Larkas]

maybe a winged template?

I was just checking the winged template (MMII, right?), and in my opinion it would fit the role quite nicely. A Winged Light Warhorse would be available at 6th level and have a flight speed 80ft., with perfect maneuverability!

[Flash1191]

I will ask; is your heart set on a bird-like mount, or just a flying mount?


I should have replied to this sooner. Yes, I would like to be riding a bird, not just any flying mount.

So to those of you advising magic horseshoes, a winged template, or other things that will get a normally-grounded mount flight, that's not what I'm looking for. I appreciate the attempt, and it's good advice. It's just not the advice that I'm looking for.

And I have gotten some useful information, so thank you all. If anyone has anything more to share, please do. Advice, information, and opinions are all welcome.

[Larkas]

I should have replied to this sooner. Yes, I would like to be riding a bird, not just any flying mount.

So to those of you advising magic horseshoes, a winged template, or other things that will get a normally-grounded mount flight, that's not what I'm looking for. I appreciate the attempt, and it's good advice. It's just not the advice that I'm looking for.

And I have gotten some useful information, so thank you all. If anyone has anything more to share, please do. Advice, information, and opinions are all welcome.

Okay, if you're dead set on riding a bird, I must point you towards the Dire Eagle (Races of Stone, pg. 186). It has a slower flight speed (60 ft. versus 70 on the owl and 80 on the giant eagle), but still has lots of advantages. First, it has an extra hit die; although d8 instead of d10 (it is an animal, not a magical beast), which means the same average contribution from dice to total HP (4d10=20, 5d8=20), it is another opportunity to add the Con modifier to the total. Second, and related to that, the relevant ability scores are higher: Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 (versus Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10 for both the Giant Eagle and Giant Owl); the Con alone is giving it 11 more hit points than the magical beasts get, the low Int is a non-issue for a Paladin's mount and Cha is a dump stat for it anyways. Third, it has a higher armor class than the alternatives, 18 vs. 15, due to both higher Dex and natural armor. And lastly, its talons do more damage than giant bird's claws. Frankly, I can't think of a reason NOT to take it over the alternatives :smallsmile: Short of splatbook access, that is =P

[Daftendirekt]

awakened warhorse paladin?

O_O

I must make this now.

[Aeryr]

Okay, if you're dead set on riding a bird, I must point you towards the Dire Eagle (Races of Stone, pg. 186). It has a slower flight speed (60 ft. versus 70 on the owl and 80 on the giant eagle), but still has lots of advantages. First, it has an extra hit die; although d8 instead of d10 (it is an animal, not a magical beast), which means the same average contribution from dice to total HP (4d10=20, 5d8=20), it is another opportunity to add the Con modifier to the total. Second, and related to that, the relevant ability scores are higher: Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 (versus Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10 for both the Giant Eagle and Giant Owl); the Con alone is giving it 11 more hit points than the magical beasts get, the low Int is a non-issue for a Paladin's mount and Cha is a dump stat for it anyways. Third, it has a higher armor class than the alternatives, 18 vs. 15, due to both higher Dex and natural armor. And lastly, its talons do more damage than giant bird's claws. Frankly, I can't think of a reason NOT to take it over the alternatives :smallsmile: Short of splatbook access, that is =P

Dragonhawk from five nations (eberron specific) is another flying huge bird to consider.

[nedz]

awakened warhorse paladin?O_O

I must make this now.

Awakened Tree Paladin has better Charisma

[Larkas]

Dragonhawk from five nations (eberron specific) is another flying huge bird to consider.

True, though it would only be available to 10th-level Paladins, versus 7th for the giant birds and the Dire Eagle. Comparing to what I said about the latter, it has more hit die (8d8), higher relevant ability scores (Str 26, Con 20, though only Dex 12), the same amount of armor (loses on size and dex, gains on NA), higher bite damage (2d6 vs. 1d8) and 2 wing attacks (1d6). It also has double the flight speed at 120ft., and Blindsense out to 60ft.

The only issues I noticed are the huge size and the higher-level availability.