[PF]Dervish Dance Magus

[Rhaegar14]

Why is the Dervish Dance build considered the standard for the Magus? It eats up two valuable feats, and doesn't allow you to take Power Attack, or swing two-handed. This is especially problematic at low-levels, when you simply don't have the spells per day to take advantage of Spell Combat every round, and your attacks don't do any damage until 3rd level (the earliest you can get Dervish Dance without dipping another class).

I mean, I get that Magus needs to survive melee, and that they can only wear light armor without shields (also something that is most problematic at early levels), but is it really worth it?

[Doorhandle]

Not sure about levels 2-3, but at level one, H.P is so low compared to damage output for everything but a dagger that it's not that relevant.

The general concesus on why it's better are

1) S.A.D > M.A.D, and thus int+dex is better than Str+int+dex

2) Spell combat require one hand free and one wielding a one-handed weapon, and weilding a two-handed weapon or a one-hander two-handed kinda precludes that.

C) a Scimitar is considered the ideal magus weapon due to being one-handed and having a high critical multiplier for spellstrike, and so the feat chain goes together like bread and butter.


Also, nothing in R.A.W, as far as I can tell, precludes using power attack with dervish dance, it’s just you don’t get at many bonuses. That’s generally arcane strike’s job anyway, as far as Magi go.

[Starbuck_II]

Why is the Dervish Dance build considered the standard for the Magus? It eats up two valuable feats, and doesn't allow you to take Power Attack, or swing two-handed. This is especially problematic at low-levels, when you simply don't have the spells per day to take advantage of Spell Combat every round, and your attacks don't do any damage until 3rd level (the earliest you can get Dervish Dance without dipping another class).

I mean, I get that Magus needs to survive melee, and that they can only wear light armor without shields (also something that is most problematic at early levels), but is it really worth it?

Um, Spellcombat + arcane Mark equal 2 attacks/rd.
You can't swing two handed with spell combat. Power attack has a friend pirranha bite or something (same but Dex based)

[Larpus]

Also, nothing in R.A.W, as far as I can tell, precludes using power attack with dervish dance, it’s just you don’t get at many bonuses. That’s generally arcane strike’s job anyway, as far as Magi go.
You "can't" because, if you don't care about Str, it's probably 8~10, meaning you don't qualify for Power Attack (Str 13).

That said...Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) solves the problem pretty darn well.

[MeeposFire]

Honestly I think it is less about being OP than being seen as mechanically leading to each other. Magus likes high crit one handed weapons. This feat tree is specific to that rare combat style. So naturally many people gravitate towards it. It is mostly blowing two feats to gain an early advantage to AC but otherwise come out about even with a normal build but down two feats in the long run as far as I can see.

[Chained Birds]

You "can't" because, if you don't care about Str, it's probably 8~10, meaning you don't qualify for Power Attack (Str 13).

That said...Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) solves the problem pretty darn well.

Does a Scimitar qualify for Piranha Strike as it is a 1handed weapon and not a light. I'd rule it that it would, but was just wondering about the RAW or RAI implications of the feat to finessable weapons like the Scimitar.

[MeeposFire]

Does a Scimitar qualify for Piranha Strike as it is a 1handed weapon and not a light. I'd rule it that it would, but was just wondering about the RAW or RAI implications of the feat to finessable weapons like the Scimitar.

No it does not. Technically the weapon is not finessable even with the feat. If you notice the feat does not say that it allows the scimitar to work with the weapon finesse feat the dance feat actually does all the work. Weapon finesse does literally nothing except act as a feat tax (that honestly I think is not necessary).

Actually I take that back if you are wiling to read into the feat as written and not how it was likely meant. The wording only requires you to wield a light weapon in order to get a bonus on all damage rolls. Since you always wield a light weapon (your fist) and the feat does not require using it in any attacks any weapon can work with piranha strike as written including two handed weapons. Granted two handed weapon users have no use for it but that is how whacky the wording is.

[Ravens_cry]

I am not sure I like Piranha Strike Its fluff doesn't seem compatible with its crunch and vise verse.
I know what it is trying to do for the game, give power attack to light weapon users, but I don't think it works. You are not giving a series of light slashes, you are making each stroke more deadly at the expense of accuracy.
If you don't want Dervish Dance, you could go rapier and get the Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Agile) weapon property, but that will likely take even longer to come online.

[Larpus]

Does a Scimitar qualify for Piranha Strike as it is a 1handed weapon and not a light. I'd rule it that it would, but was just wondering about the RAW or RAI implications of the feat to finessable weapons like the Scimitar.
The bloody hell?

I went to the SRD and couldn't find anything that even allows Scimitar to qualify for Weapon Finesse by RAW.

That said, if it were the case, Dervish Dance would be completely moronic in concept, wording and pre-reqs. So I'd rule that it counts as light for effects in general.

RAI-wise however, things are better since Weapon Finesse specifically mentions the Elven Curved Blade, which the text describes as:

Essentially a longer version of a scimitar, but with a thinner blade, the elven curve blade is exceptionally rare.
I'd say it has enough evidence to me to conclude that it's either a unnoticed omission or the SRD is incomplete.

[MeeposFire]

The bloody hell?

I went to the SRD and couldn't find anything that even allows Scimitar to qualify for Weapon Finesse by RAW.

That said, if it were the case, Dervish Dance would be completely moronic in concept, wording and pre-reqs. So I'd rule that it counts as light for effects in general.

RAI-wise however, things are better since Weapon Finesse specifically mentions the Elven Curved Blade, which the text describes as:

I'd say it has enough evidence to me to conclude that it's either a unnoticed omission or the SRD is incomplete.

Fortunately weapon finesse does not need to apply the scimitar as dervish dance does it for you. Yes that does make finesse a 100% tax feat which is not needed to balance the feat. Is it dumb? Yes IMO.

Also just noticed that piranha strike does not work with finesse weapons like the rapier so the conversation is moot (unless you use the crazy interpretation I outlined above).

[grarrrg]

The bloody hell?

I went to the SRD and couldn't find anything that even allows Scimitar to qualify for Weapon Finesse by RAW.

That said, if it were the case, Dervish Dance would be completely moronic in concept, wording and pre-reqs. So I'd rule that it counts as light for effects in general.

Scimitars do not qualify for Weapon Finesse. Ever.
That's why Dervish Dance specifies 'Dex on attack and damage rolls'.

It's also based more on "flavor", and uses the Scimitar-Only clause to justify giving Dex-to-Damage, which is normally a HUGE pain to get (until the Agile enchantment anyway...).

There's also some justification for treating it as a Light weapon "You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon".
It's not too far of a jump to say it counts as a Light weapon too.


You can also just take 1 level of Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) Bard, and get Dervish Dance "req-free".

[Larpus]

Gah!

Them feats be crazy, man!!

On a serious note, that looks like an unnecessary amount of running in circles that could really have been streamlined.

[MeeposFire]

Gah!

Them feats be crazy, man!!

On a serious note, that looks like an unnecessary amount of running in circles that could really have been streamlined.

You do know you are taking about PF right? This is the rule set where some of the designers thought that vital strike worked with spring attack (though it would have worked in 3.5 but oh well). Convoluted and silly rules (silly as in what were you thinking which where I put the weapon finesse requirement on dervish dance) are not uncommon.

[grarrrg]

You do know you are taking about PF right? This is the rule set where some of the designers thought that vital strike worked with spring attack (though it would have worked in 3.5 but oh well). Convoluted and silly rules (silly as in what were you thinking which where I put the weapon finesse requirement on dervish dance) are not uncommon.

In a round-about, backwards kind of way, Weapon Finesse as a Req for Dervish Dance does, kind of, make sense.

"Dervish Dance gives Dex to Hit!"
"We need more Pre-Reqs though..."
"Weapon Finesse gives Dex to Hit, put that on there!"
"GENIUS!"

[MeeposFire]

In a round-about, backwards kind of way, Weapon Finesse as a Req for Dervish Dance does, kind of, make sense.

"Dervish Dance gives Dex to Hit!"
"We need more Pre-Reqs though..."
"Weapon Finesse gives Dex to Hit, put that on there!"
"GENIUS!"

Lol too bad it did not need any more prerequisites...

[stack]

Its pathfinder, everything interesting needs at least three prerequisites!

[Warlok]

I'm considering running a Magus and I'm torn between a strength and Dervish build. My DM is allowing Dervish Dance feat.
My issue with going the dervish route is that there is ZERO room for flexibility at early levels. Every Dervish Magus is going to be an elf. (You could possibly choose human, but it would be foolish to give up all the magical race bonuses,etc. that elf provides when you cant use feats to improve that.) Every Dervish build will have weapon finesse as their level one feat and Dervish Dance as their level 3 feat. Very cookie cutter.

We all know the advantages of dervish dance, now let's talk dis-advantages:
1. No useful feat at first level. Weapon finesse is a "throw away" 1st level feat to get dervish dance. Technically you don't even get your dex bonus added to your scimitar attack UNTIL you get dervish dance at level 3 since it is dervish dance that makes the scimitar agile and able to receive the attack AND damage bonus. Sort of makes Walters guide to the magus pretty useless since almost that entire guide is predicated on the idea you get your dex added to your attack rolls at level 1. Have fun playing a gimped wizard for 2 levels & very likely 6 game sessions.
2. No two-handed attacks or power attacks. EVER. People will argue that "no two-handed attack is not a drawback" for the magus because spell combat does not allow use of a two handed weapon anyways. I say it is a HUGE drawback and here is why. SPELLSTRIKE. You won't be using spell combat as often as you think in the game. Limitations on spells at early levels and basic positioning in combat makes it more of a "few times a day" type of thing. You will use spellstrike without spell combat far more often and you CAN do that two handed, and you can do it as a power attack. Major advantage having 1.5x added to strength and power attack, especially when critting. Dervish builds will doubtfully even get power attack on a 15 or 20 point build because your strength wont be enough.
3. The scimitar itself. Not a terribly great melee weapon (1D6 dmg) aside from the crit range (18-20x2). Speaking of the crit range, it my feeling that the writer of the dervish feat probably intended the change from slashing to piercing damage to also reduce the crit range to that of a piercing weapon at least one level. Something like 19-20x2 or just x3. If I were the DM, thats how I would justify the feat in my game. Sorry, just doesnt seem realistic to me that you'd be "poking" people with a scimitar threatening a crit on 15-20. Seems like an non-efficient use of that weapon which is built for slashing.
4. Strength as a dump stat. Having a 10 or lower strength as a melee specialist has its drawbacks. First of all, you suck until you can take dervish dance feat at 3rd level. Even then, encumberance can be a huge issue even if your DM plays it loosely. And then there is your CMB. Power attack? Strength skills and checks?

I am currenty looking at a half elf strength build using extra traits as my level one feat to boost some stats. Worth noting half elf can pick up any exotic weapon he wants at level one with his ancestral arms alt race trait. I suggest Katana if you are going for a high crit range and a D8 for damage. This route really opens up hundreds of options on how you want build your magus vs the cookie cutter dervish elf, not to mention my 3rd and 5th level feats have no predetermined selection I must follow like the dervish model.

[Warlok]

Just to complete my thought on Dervish dance feat limitations. By the rules, you can not use a scimitar with the weapon finesse feat alone. Weapon finesse is just a prerequisite for dervish dance and does not grant the use of scimitar as a light or agile weapon.
To go the dervish route with your magus, you will need to use a rapier or some other light weapon for levels 1&2 to gain an attack bonus from your dex. Not a huge deal really, since most light weapons have low damage dice like the scimitar and attacking two handed is pointless anyways.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm considering running a Magus and I'm torn between a strength and Dervish build. My DM is allowing Dervish Dance feat.
My issue with going the dervish route is that there is ZERO room for flexibility at early levels. Every Dervish Magus is going to be an elf. (You could possibly choose human, but it would be foolish to give up all the magical race bonuses,etc. that elf provides when you cant use feats to improve that.) Every Dervish build will have weapon finesse as their level one feat and Dervish Dance as their level 3 feat. Very cookie cutter.

We all know the advantages of dervish dance, now let's talk dis-advantages:
1. No useful feat at first level. Weapon finesse is a "throw away" 1st level feat to get dervish dance. Technically you don't even get your dex bonus added to your scimitar attack UNTIL you get dervish dance at level 3 since it is dervish dance that makes the scimitar agile and able to receive the attack AND damage bonus. Sort of makes Walters guide to the magus pretty useless since almost that entire guide is predicated on the idea you get your dex added to your attack rolls at level 1. Have fun playing a gimped wizard for 2 levels & very likely 6 game sessions.
2. No two-handed attacks or power attacks. EVER. People will argue that "no two-handed attack is not a drawback" for the magus because spell combat does not allow use of a two handed weapon anyways. I say it is a HUGE drawback and here is why. SPELLSTRIKE. You won't be using spell combat as often as you think in the game. Limitations on spells at early levels and basic positioning in combat makes it more of a "few times a day" type of thing. You will use spellstrike without spell combat far more often and you CAN do that two handed, and you can do it as a power attack. Major advantage having 1.5x added to strength and power attack, especially when critting. Dervish builds will doubtfully even get power attack on a 15 or 20 point build because your strength wont be enough.
3. The scimitar itself. Not a terribly great melee weapon (1D6 dmg) aside from the crit range (18-20x2). Speaking of the crit range, it my feeling that the writer of the dervish feat probably intended the change from slashing to piercing damage to also reduce the crit range to that of a piercing weapon at least one level. Something like 19-20x2 or just x3. If I were the DM, thats how I would justify the feat in my game. Sorry, just doesnt seem realistic to me that you'd be "poking" people with a scimitar threatening a crit on 15-20. Seems like an non-efficient use of that weapon which is built for slashing.
4. Strength as a dump stat. Having a 10 or lower strength as a melee specialist has its drawbacks. First of all, you suck until you can take dervish dance feat at 3rd level. Even then, encumberance can be a huge issue even if your DM plays it loosely. And then there is your CMB. Power attack? Strength skills and checks?

I am currenty looking at a half elf strength build using extra traits as my level one feat to boost some stats. Worth noting half elf can pick up any exotic weapon he wants at level one with his ancestral arms alt race trait. I suggest Katana if you are going for a high crit range and a D8 for damage. This route really opens up hundreds of options on how you want build your magus vs the cookie cutter dervish elf, not to mention my 3rd and 5th level feats have no predetermined selection I must follow like the dervish model.

Why would you NEED to be an elf to be a dervish dance magus? It works well with just about any race that doesn't penalize dex. And its not like you can't switch weapons once you get to third level. A masterwork scimitar costs like 300 GP. Suck it up

[Psyren]

1) Er, you can get your Dex to attack at level 1; just don't use a scimitar until you pick up DD, it's not rocket science. Use a short sword or kukri or something. Hell, if your first fight is against goblins you may not even have to buy one.

2) Obviously if you're 2-handing then Spellstrike is more useful, but a Dex build gives you the option to use Spell Combat instead when you're fighting very high-AC foes. The Dex build sacrifices some damage but can switch between the two styles seamlessly, or even combine them.

3) Your houserules to needlessly nerf a weapon you don't like have no bearing on the feat's effectiveness.

4) Encumbrance is never a "huge issue," there's a thing called handy haversack. Hitting matters more than damage at low levels (see #1) and at mid-high levels you have DD, plus more than enough spells to make up for your lower strength. As for CMB, there's this other thing called Agile Maneuvers.

[StreamOfTheSky]

1) S.A.D > M.A.D, and thus int+dex is better than Str+int+dex

2) Spell combat require one hand free and one wielding a one-handed weapon, and weilding a two-handed weapon or a one-hander two-handed kinda precludes that.

C) a Scimitar is considered the ideal magus weapon due to being one-handed and having a high critical multiplier for spellstrike, and so the feat chain goes together like bread and butter.


Also, nothing in R.A.W, as far as I can tell, precludes using power attack with dervish dance, it’s just you don’t get at many bonuses. That’s generally arcane strike’s job anyway, as far as Magi go.

1. It is worth noting that, w/o Dervish Dance, Magus is a pretty MAD class. The casting in armor stuff comes preeeeeeety dang late. If you go a strength build, you have to choose between lots of mediocre stats or a squishy AC.

Also, I think a large driver is PF's irrational hatred* of the Genius Bruiser concept. The only way to make a Str/Int race in paizo material I know of is the Dual Talent variant for human, which frankly...isn't worth it. On the other hand, there are more Dex/Int races than you can shake a stick at.
*Actually, they seem to just hate +str races in general. It's gotta be the least common stat to get boosted, by far.

And not power attacking isn't a big deal. Spell Combat is already imposing a penalty. And when you have a big source of bonus damage, like sneak attack or Intensified Shocking Grasp...taking on a bunch of attack penalties isn't worth the meager damage boost you gain.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'm considering running a Magus and I'm torn between a strength and Dervish build. My DM is allowing Dervish Dance feat.
My issue with going the dervish route is that there is ZERO room for flexibility at early levels. Every Dervish Magus is going to be an elf. (You could possibly choose human, but it would be foolish to give up all the magical race bonuses,etc. that elf provides when you cant use feats to improve that.) Every Dervish build will have weapon finesse as their level one feat and Dervish Dance as their level 3 feat. Very cookie cutter. You mean Tiefling, right? Though really Tieflings are great for just about every Magus, not just the dervish.


We all know the advantages of dervish dance, now let's talk dis-advantages:
1. No useful feat at first level. Weapon finesse is a "throw away" 1st level feat to get dervish dance. Technically you don't even get your dex bonus added to your scimitar attack UNTIL you get dervish dance at level 3 since it is dervish dance that makes the scimitar agile and able to receive the attack AND damage bonus. Sort of makes Walters guide to the magus pretty useless since almost that entire guide is predicated on the idea you get your dex added to your attack rolls at level 1. Have fun playing a gimped wizard for 2 levels & very likely 6 game sessions.I'll only ask this about the point that weapon finesse is useless as a level 1 feat. Why are you using a scimitar at level 1? You're not a fighter, you can just change your weapon after a couple of levels.


2. No two-handed attacks or power attacks. EVER. People will argue that "no two-handed attack is not a drawback" for the magus because spell combat does not allow use of a two handed weapon anyways. I say it is a HUGE drawback and here is why. SPELLSTRIKE. You won't be using spell combat as often as you think in the game. Limitations on spells at early levels and basic positioning in combat makes it more of a "few times a day" type of thing. You will use spellstrike without spell combat far more often and you CAN do that two handed, and you can do it as a power attack. Major advantage having 1.5x added to strength and power attack, especially when critting. Dervish builds will doubtfully even get power attack on a 15 or 20 point build because your strength wont be enough.Fortunately Maguses have access to Arcane Strike to help overcome this, but yes, this is annoying.


3. The scimitar itself. Not a terribly great melee weapon (1D6 dmg) aside from the crit range (18-20x2). Speaking of the crit range, it my feeling that the writer of the dervish feat probably intended the change from slashing to piercing damage to also reduce the crit range to that of a piercing weapon at least one level. Something like 19-20x2 or just x3. If I were the DM, thats how I would justify the feat in my game. Sorry, just doesnt seem realistic to me that you'd be "poking" people with a scimitar threatening a crit on 15-20. Seems like an non-efficient use of that weapon which is built for slashing.

4. Strength as a dump stat. Having a 10 or lower strength as a melee specialist has its drawbacks. First of all, you suck until you can take dervish dance feat at 3rd level. Even then, encumberance can be a huge issue even if your DM plays it loosely. And then there is your CMB. Power attack? Strength skills and checks?You're a magic user at early levels, so you aren't going to be in medium armor for a while anyway. Encumberance shouldn't be much of an issue.



Also, I think a large driver is PF's irrational hatred* of the Genius Bruiser concept. The only way to make a Str/Int race in paizo material I know of is the Dual Talent variant for human, which frankly...isn't worth it. Is it really? Hmmm... Challenge accepted! There has to be an alternate Dhampir, Tiefling or Aasimar Bloodline that gives strength and int, among all of them.

Son of a bitch. There are none among any of them.

[Bhaakon]

Also, I think a large driver is PF's irrational hatred* of the Genius Bruiser concept. The only way to make a Str/Int race in paizo material I know of is the Dual Talent variant for human, which frankly...isn't worth it.

There's also the relatively obscure male Lashunta (as far as I know, the only race with different stats based on sex). But they're not native to Golarion, so you'd have to stretch quite a bit to get them into a campaign in the system's base world.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah, right... Male Lashunta. Good luck getting to play them... I've never had a PF game yet where the DM allowed us to go pick a race from the bestiary, even if Lashunta has a player character racial mod stat block. It's always had to be one of the races actually listed on d20pfsrd under Races. Which is irksome, because Lashunta is a perfectly mechanically balanced race...

But, fair enough. I don't suppose paizo's finally given us a Lightning Bruiser (Str/Dex) race, yet? That's the one I miss the most. Considering that in 3E it was available right in freaking core (Wood Elf).

[Squirrel_Dude]

Well, you know, you could always just use the race builder to make the race you wanted. That system does such a great job at making balanced races. That's why all the RP score of the races in the ARG are so similar.

And no, I can't think of any race that gives a bonus to strength and dexterity.

[Warlok]

Yeah, umm, dont want to argue with you guys. To each his own. Id rather pit my half elf strength magus against your dervish magus. If we ran into each other as enemies at level 1 or 2, I gaurantee your dervish build never reaches his next level.

The bulk of my point of view comes from early level play. The 2 builds sort of balance out later on, say after level 7.

To answer a few questions:
1. Never said you could not be any race but an elf with a dervish build, just a simple fact the elf's traits and bonuses are a clear win for the build. All this is assuming you are playing a standard 15 or 20 point build, not some super build. If you are building supers, then ignore my entire post.

2. Whoever said the dervish build is more flexible than a strength build is not doing their research. What feats are you taking at levels 1 and 3? How about level 5? Thought so. And some people think agile weapons are just lying around at first or second level. Lol. No. Just accept that the dervish build magus is feeble at dealing damage compared to a strength build especially at early levels.

3. Someone implied that a strength magus couldn't spell combat as well as a dervish. Huh? I can, and i can do it better than the dervish, I promise you. Same attack bonus, superior damage bonus, power attack. And spellstrikes are two handed with power attack. At level 2 if I crit with my katana using spellstrike shocking grasp damage = 2d8+12 + 6d6. Your dervish magus using a rapier damage on same crit = 2d6 + 0 + 4d6. Thats up to 16 dmg (or 28 if you count the my spell boosting trait you wont get because your feats are already chosen) you are leaving off the table. At second level that is huge. And I have access to all the same magus abilities: arcane pool, arcane accuacy, etc. Plus I more than likely have a much higher cast defensive bonus than you since your feats / traits are accounted for.

The ONLY advantage you will have over me is your AC, and we are only talking 1 or 2 points, easily remedied with a shield spell. I have extra traits as my level one feat, so my relfex saves and initiative are boosted, as well as my cl for certain spells, including shocking grasp. And heck, I probably have a better chance of finding a set of +1 light armor long before you find an agile weapon.

4. Someone mentioned masterwork weapon balances things out. That is not true at all. The +1 does not stack with your arcane pool bonuses, so, Masterwork weapon is largely useless to you.

If you are patient (unlike me) and dont mind putzing your way through levels 1 and 2, then by all means go for the dervish. At least you will be quick and agile enough to win initiative and run from danger for 2 levels.

[Psyren]

Yeah, umm, dont want to argue with you guys. To each his own.

That's a very reasonable and matu-



Id rather pit my half elf strength magus against your dervish magus. If we ran into each other as enemies at level 1 or 2, I gaurantee your dervish build never reaches his next level.

:smallsigh: never mind.

This kind of internet tough guy posturing doesn't prove or accomplish anything.



The ONLY advantage you will have over me is your AC, and we are only talking 1 or 2 points, easily remedied with a shield spell.

Dex Magi can't cast Shield? :smallconfused:

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yeah, umm, dont want to argue with you guys. To each his own. Id rather pit my half elf strength magus against your dervish magus. If we ran into each other as enemies at level 1 or 2, I gaurantee your dervish build never reaches his next level.

The bulk of my point of view comes from early level play. The 2 builds sort of balance out later on, say after level 7.

To answer a few questions:
1. Never said you could not be any race but an elf with a dervish build, just a simple fact the elf's traits and bonuses are a clear win for the build. All this is assuming you are playing a standard 15 or 20 point build, not some super build. If you are building supers, then ignore my entire post.Not to argue, but they take a penalty to con, which is horrible when they're going to be in melee all the time. Tieflings get bonuses to int and dex, and take a penalty to charisma, and they have a tail for holding metamagic rods.

Also: 15 point buy with an elf (strength build)
I need at least: 10 int, 14 con, 16 strength, everything else to dex.
Results 16/14(12+2)/12(14-2)/14(12+2)/10/7

15 point buy with a tiefling (strength Build)
I need at least 14 con, 17 dex and 10 strength wouldn't be bad for gear.
Results 16/14(12+2)/14/14(12+2)/10/5(7-2)

Clearly a "super build" isn't necessary to make Tieflings work. I could draw up some alternate versions (20 point buys, elf dex, tiefling strength, etc.) but I think the point is clear, as is. I'm more trying to show you what you're missing than say that you are wrong.


2. Whoever said the dervish build is more flexible than a strength build is not doing their research. What feats are you taking at levels 1 and 3? How about level 5? Thought so. And some people think agile weapons are just lying around at first or second level. Lol. No. Just accept that the dervish build magus is feeble at dealing damage compared to a strength build especially at early levels.

3. Someone implied that a strength magus couldn't spell combat as well as a dervish. Huh? I can, and i can do it better than the dervish, I promise you. Same attack bonus, superior damage bonus, power attack. And spellstrikes are two handed with power attack. At level 2 if I crit with my katana using spellstrike shocking grasp damage = 2d8+12 + 6d6. Your dervish magus using a rapier damage on same crit = 2d6 + 0 + 4d6. Thats up to 16 dmg (or 28 if you count the my spell boosting trait you wont get because your feats are already chosen) you are leaving off the table. At second level that is huge. And I have access to all the same magus abilities: arcane pool, arcane accuacy, etc. Plus I more than likely have a much higher cast defensive bonus than you since your feats / traits are accounted for.2. Yes, they have issues with damage at levels 1 and 2, and really, they have trouble with damage and pretty strict feat selection for most of the game. I'll agree, but I think the payoff of becoming less MAD is worth it. It's also very helpful in terms of buying magic items.

3. Spell combat requires you have a free hand, which means strength Maguses can not take advantage the 1 1/2 strength/power attack bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon at the same time as they are using spell combat. Their to-hit and damage modifiers will be the same, if not worse than a dex magus, who won't have to be worried about balancing out dex and strength.


The ONLY advantage you will have over me is your AC, and we are only talking 1 or 2 points, easily remedied with a shield spell. I have extra traits as my level one feat, so my relfex saves and initiative are boosted, as well as my cl for certain spells, including shocking grasp. And heck, I probably have a better chance of finding a set of +1 light armor long before you find an agile weapon.The thing about AC being higher, is that it changes how characters deal damage. It's not just a thing that effects a character's defense.

Average Damage (DPR) ≠ Average Result of Damage Rolls.
DPR = Average Damage Rolls * %Chance to Hit.

And the Dervish Magus is going to have a higher %chance to hit because his stats are less spread around, and have a lower chance of being hit by others. It should be expected that he's going to hit more often, and be able to fight longer, and be able to use spell combat, so he'll be doing close to as much damage.



4. Someone mentioned masterwork weapon balances things out. That is not true at all. The +1 does not stack with your arcane pool bonuses, so, Masterwork weapon is largely useless to you.

If you are patient (unlike me) and dont mind putzing your way through levels 1 and 2, then by all means go for the dervish. At least you will be quick and agile enough to win initiative and run from danger for 2 levels.It's not that puzzling. 3/4 BAB classes in 3.5 had to wait until level 3 to get weapon finesse. I think I can survive until level 3 without dex to damage.

[Snowbluff]

Power Attack is awful for Magus. These guys aren't Duskblades. They don't have the ability to benefit from it due to medium BaB and the one-handedness.

Meanwhile, Dervish Dance has all off the benefits mentioned in the first reply. :smalltongue:

Tieflings are awesome. In addition to the default stats being excellent, they can have claws and/or a bite for coolness.

[Warlok]

That's a very reasonable and matu-



:smallsigh: never mind.

This kind of internet tough guy posturing doesn't prove or accomplish anything.



Dex Magi can't cast Shield? :smallconfused:

Sure he can cast shield too... but what can he do/cast to make up for an average loss of 7-16 dmg per attack at levels 1 and 2? Nothing that I can find within the rules. Enlighten me if you find something.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way. People go ballistic when you step all over their dervish dreams.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Sure he can cast shield too... but what can he do/cast to make up for an average loss of 7-16 dmg per attack at levels 1 and 2? Nothing that I can find within the rules. Enlighten me if you find something.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way. People go ballistic when you step all over their dervish dreams.I'm not sure what the 7 to 16 damage per attack claim is based on.

Ignore Critical Hit chance:
16 strength vs 16 dex, means you do 3 more damage on a hit (again, not attack)
1 1/2 times that bonues only makes 4 more damage per hit.
A katana instead of a rapier = 1 more damage per hit
Power attack makes that 2 more damage, with a -1 penalty to hit.

That's 6 damage per hit. I don't even know how you're getting to 7, let alone 16. Has this Magus of yours taken EWP Katana, cause otherwise it is a two-handed weapon and he can't be casting spells (with somatic components) because both of his hands are occupied? What four traits does this character have, and why can't the dervish have the one that increases shocking grasp damage?

I just don't understand your math.

[Snowbluff]

Power attacker also loses damage on Shocking Grasp, I think.

[Psyren]

Sure he can cast shield too... but what can he do/cast to make up for an average loss of 7-16 dmg per attack at levels 1 and 2? Nothing that I can find within the rules. Enlighten me if you find something.

But that's just it, the dex guy doesn't need to cast shield. Because dex. That's one more shocking grasp you don't have, not to mention initiative, touch AC (tanglefoot bags suck) and reflex saves. And he's spending the first round of combat actually attacking instead of buffing his AC.

And once your shield runs out, or if you don't cast it, you're pretty squishy. the DPR of a corpse is zero.



Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way. People go ballistic when you step all over their dervish dreams.

Who's going "ballistic?" :smallconfused:

[Warlok]

Not to argue, but they take a penalty to con, which is horrible when they're going to be in melee all the time. Tieflings get bonuses to int and dex, and take a penalty to charisma, and they have a tail for holding metamagic rods.

Also: 15 point buy with an elf (strength build)
I need at least: 10 int, 14 con, 16 strength, everything else to dex.
Results 16/14(12+2)/12(14-2)/14(12+2)/10/7

15 point buy with a tiefling (strength Build)
I need at least 14 con, 17 dex and 10 strength wouldn't be bad for gear.
Results 16/14(12+2)/14/14(12+2)/10/5(7-2)

Hell, I'm tempted to dump the Tieflings charisma all the way down to 5, and have a 12 in strength, but I'm not a fan of having that low of charisma. Nonetheless, I feel that I didn't a "super build" to make the idea work. I could draw up some alternate versions (20 point buys, elf dex, tiefling strength, etc.) but I think the point is clear, as is.

2. Yes, they have issues with damage at levels 1 and 2, and really, they have trouble with damage and pretty strict feat selection for most of the game. I'll agree, but I think the payoff of becoming less MAD is worth it. It's also very helpful in terms of buying magic items.

3. Spell combat requires you have a free hand, which means strength Maguses can not take advantage the 1 1/2 strength/power attack bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon at the same time as they are using spell combat. Their to-hit and damage modifiers will be the same, if not worse than a dex magus, who won't have to be worried about balancing out dex and strength.

The thing about AC being higher, is that it changes how characters deal damage. It's not just a thing that effects a character's defense.

Average Damage (DPR) ≠ Average Result of Damage Rolls.
DPR = Average Damage Rolls * %Chance to Hit.

And the Dervish Magus is going to have a higher %chance to hit because his stats are less spread around, and have a lower chance of being hit by others. It should be expected that he's going to hit more often, and be able to fight longer, and be able to use spell combat, so he'll be doing close to as much damage.


It's not that puzzling. 3/4 BAB classes in 3.5 had to wait until level 3 to get weapon finesse. I think I can survive until level 3 without dex to damage.

Yeah, tiefling is a not a bad option, but Elf has those magic traits that help the build. I don't think you are really permitted to drop any stat below a 7 unless you house rule it. If you look at Walters guide to the magus, he list the best races to use, and I still agree with his assessments on that topic.

Onto your point #3. I am fully aware of spell combat requiring a free hand, but spellstrike can delivered 2 handed. Additionally, you mention the strength build's to hit and damage modifiers would be the same or WORSE than a dex based magus (dervish). That is simply untrue at levels 1 & 2.

At level 1, my strength build Magus attacks one handed with a Katana for +5 hit/1d8 +5 dmg (with arcane pool) and my AC is 16 w/11 HP. A dervish Magus with a similar point buy would attack one handed with a rapier for +5 hit/1d6 +1 dmg and carries an 18 AC with 11 HP.

Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about with AC determining damage? DPR? Is that some long term statistic? I assume you are talking about durability over the course of a days combat and staying in the fight. I thought I addressed that with simply casting shield (which the dex based can do as well) but what can the dex based Magus do at level 1 or 2 to boost his damage modifier? Enlarge? doesnt really help if your strength is 10. Actually ruins the build. I couldn't find anything that would help that would last the duration of a battle. Enlighten me if you find something. I'll take a 16 AC instead of 18 AC to get a damage modifier that is 600-700% higher without adding any magical effects.

Let me clarify something, on a 20 point buy, my strength magus' dex is still a 14. My Stats are 18/Str, 14/Dex, 13/Con, 16/Int, 8/Wis, 7/Chr. I'm not dumping the dex the way dervish dumps their strength. You could keep 2-5 points into strength with a dervish and wack your wisdom some more, but it is not worth it since your strength is meaningless after level 3 with regards to melee. (for the most part)

I recommend everyone considering building a Magus to not simply "accept" the dervish build as the most efficient build, Dig into the races, the various weaponry, the feats and traits. I think you will find strength builds much more playable from level 1 on up. There are no "lean" levels as with dervish/dex builds. After 2 weeks of digging and studying, I found the dervish builds to be woefully underpowered and boring, especially at early levels. Having those extra feats at first and 3rd level really helps bolster your character for the long haul rather than sacrificing so much just gain a couple points of AC.

For a dervish build it boiled down to this for me. You are giving up: ALL melee damage bonuses for levels 1 & 2, your 1st and 3rd level feats, the ability to attack two-handed, and arguably power attack. In return you get an AC 2 points higher. That's it. If that sounds like a good trade to you, then go for it. I am just one opinion.

Like I have said before, the whole Dervish Dance feat itself is not even part of the accepted Pathfinder rule set. Search the PRD if you dont believe me. Everything I have used to build my magus is tried, tested and approved. Even with that being said, I too thought the dervish magus was amazing at first. Until I started some sample builds, researched some of the feats and skills, learned how power attack would set off the balance later on for the Strength builds.

[Snowbluff]

But that's just it, the dex guy doesn't need to cast shield. Because dex. That's one more shocking grasp you don't have, not to mention initiative, touch AC (tanglefoot bags suck) and reflex saves. And he's spending the first round of combat actually attacking instead of buffing his AC. I concur with this.


And once your shield runs out, or if you don't cast it, you're pretty squishy. the DPR of a corpse is zero.

You also have to watch your threat meter. The extra 2 damage could pull threat, and dead DPS do no damage.:smalltongue:


Who's going "ballistic?" :smallconfused:
No one, until now. *hops*

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yeah, tiefling is a not a bad option, but Elf has those magic traits that help the build. I don't think you are really permitted to drop any stat below a 7 unless you house rule it. If you look at Walters guide to the magus, he list the best races to use, and I still agree with his assessments on that topic.I've looked at that guide multiple times, and I disagree with that particular assessment. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the topic.


Onto your point #3. I am fully aware of spell combat requiring a free hand, but spellstrike can delivered 2 handed. That is correct, if you're using still spell. You actually can't cast any spell with a somatic component without a free hand.


Additionally, you mention the strength build's to hit and damage modifiers would be the same or WORSE than a dex based magus (dervish). That is simply untrue at levels 1 & 2. Really? With a 20 point buy I bet I can make it worse real quick.

Tiefling (my preference) Strength Build
18/14 (12+2)/12/16(14+2)/8/5(7-2)

Tiefling Dervish Build.
12/20 (18+2)/12/16(14+2)/8/5(7-2)

For those of you playing at home, I switched two numbers in the builds, and wound up with a higher attack modifier. To be clear I did max out the attack modifiers of both characters.

Also to be clear, I don't like of those arrays. They were to make the point. I would not have wisdom or charisma scores that low (well maybe the charisma).


At level 1, my strength build Magus attacks one handed with a Katana for +5 hit/1d8 +5 dmg (with arcane pool) and my AC is 16 w/11 HP. A dervish Magus with a similar point buy would attack one handed with a rapier for +5 hit/1d6 +1 dmg and carries an 18 AC with 11 HP.

Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about with AC determining damage? DPR? Is that some long term statistic? I assume you are talking about durability over the course of a days combat and staying in the fight. I thought I addressed that with simply casting shield (which the dex based can do as well) but what can the dex based Magus do at level 1 or 2 to boost his damage modifier? Enlarge? doesnt really help if your strength is 10. Actually ruins the build. I couldn't find anything that would help that would last the duration of a battle. Enlighten me if you find something. I'll take a 16 AC instead of 18 AC to get a damage modifier that is 600-700% higher without adding any magical effects.My comment on AC determining damage was that if the dervish magus is less likely to be hit, it's also likely to get knocked unconscious. One can't damage things when one is unconscious.


Let me clarify something, on a 20 point buy, my strength magus' dex is still a 14. My Stats are 18/Str, 14/Dex, 13/Con, 16/Int, 8/Wis, 7/Chr. I'm not dumping the dex the way dervish dumps their strength. You could keep 2-5 points into strength with a dervish and wack your wisdom some more, but it is not worth it since your strength is meaningless after level 3 with regards to melee. (for the most part)I have to say, That is an impressive 20 point buy as an elf, considering those scores (18/12+2/15-2/14+2/8/7) cost 25 points.


I recommend everyone considering building a Magus to not simply "accept" the dervish build as the most efficient build, Dig into the races, the various weaponry, the feats and traits. I think you will find strength builds much more playable from level 1 on up. There are no "lean" levels as with dervish/dex builds. After 2 weeks of digging and studying, I found the dervish builds to be woefully underpowered and boring, especially at early levels. Having those extra feats at first and 3rd level really helps bolster your character for the long haul rather than sacrificing so much just gain a couple points of AC.

For a dervish build it boiled down to this for me. You are giving up: ALL melee damage bonuses for levels 1 & 2, your 1st and 3rd level feats, the ability to attack two-handed, and arguably power attack. In return you get an AC 2 points higher. That's it. If that sounds like a good trade to you, then go for it. I am just one opinion. I'm also getting a higher initiative and reflex save, but then why would someone who casts spells care about that?


Like I have said before, the whole Dervish Dance feat itself is not even part of the accepted Pathfinder rule set. Search the PRD if you dont believe me.:smallannoyed:

It's not in the PRD because it's in a book that is far and away mostly non OGL; the Inner Sea World Guide. Not being on the PRD just means that it's not accepted for Pathfinder Society. You will not be able to convince to not allow that book any time I run a Pathfinder AP, or otherwise try to use the Golarion setting, though.


Everything I have used to build my magus is tried, tested and approved. You sure? You spent your extra feat on wielding the Katana one-handed. Just to remind you. I'll also point out that EWP requires BAB +1, so you can't actually wield that weapon one-handed until level 3 when you actually meet the prerequisites for that feat.

[Warlok]

I'm not sure what the 7 to 16 damage per attack claim is based on.

Ignore Critical Hit chance:
16 strength vs 16 dex, means you do 3 more damage on a hit (again, not attack)
1 1/2 times that bonues only makes 4 more damage per hit.
A katana instead of a rapier = 1 more damage per hit
Power attack makes that 2 more damage, with a -1 penalty to hit.

That's 6 damage per hit. I don't even know how you're getting to 7, let alone 16. Has this Magus of yours taken EWP Katana, cause otherwise it is a two-handed weapon and he can't be casting spells (with somatic components) because both of his hands are occupied? What four traits does this character have, and why can't the dervish have the one that increases shocking grasp damage?

I just don't understand your math.

Allow me to explain further:
Straight up melee attack at level 1. (forget all about power attack for the moment) 18 strength, Katana (two handed) 1.5 strength modifier = 6 for a grand total of (drum roll please) +6 Damage.
The MINIMUM damage I will inflict is 7. (Dervish = 1)
The MAXIMUM damage I will inflict is 14. (Dervish = 6)
Even One-Handed the strength magus owns the dex magus:
The MINIMUM damage I will inflict is 5. (Dervish = 1)
The MAXIMUM damage I will inflict is 12. (Dervish = 6)

Add in power attack and things get way more lopsided regarding the damage dealt. For sake of comparing, please leave out any magus abilities like arcane pool, etc. since we can all do those. (although I'll have more pool than your dex magus by 3rd level from a feat :)

The "16" number was using a critical scenario, where my strength build would get at least an extra +16 dmg given the damage die and damage modifiers involved. The math holds true.

Trust me, my Magus was done by the book:
- I have EWP Katana through the half-elf alt trait Ancestral Arms. (ignores the 1 BAB requirement)
- Never said I could cast spells (via spell combat) using the weapon two-handed. With the EWP I can freely use the katana 1 or 2 handed as I see fit. With Spellstrike it is perfectly legal to cast the spell holding the katana in one hand, and then deliver the free melee attack two handed. Heck, I could even cast, move, and take the free TWO-HANDED attack if I wanted.
- With spell combat I just attack one handed like a dex based magus, accept I do more damage. Like way more damage actually. (see above)
- My magus takes no penalties for using a katana. I don't know what the confusion is with that. I am at no disadvantage there. He can do all the same things with spell combat and spell strike that a scimitar wielding magus can do.

Now, regarding the trait selection. I suppose it is true a dervish build could also take the Lore Seeker trait which gives you a choice of 3 spells to use at one CL higher. I stated that they "probably" would not choose that trait given the standard 2 traits given to most new character builds (1 trait from the rule books and 1 from the campaign guide) Even if they did choose it, there is still the matter of the minimum 7 extra damage per attack the dex based doesn't get.

For my level 1 feat I chose the Additional Traits feat, which gives 2 additional traits (but each trait must be from a different category) This allowed me to bolster my Concentration checks (+2), my perception (now a class skill and an extra +3 on top of that) and my initiative bonus (+2).

I'd be happy to open the books on any of this with you if it helps you build a good Magus.

[Warlok]

Power attacker also loses damage on Shocking Grasp, I think.

Never heard of that. Yes, the power attack only amplifies the weapon damage, not the spell portion. But as far as I know it if fully functional in spell combat and spellstrike.

[Bhaakon]

Never heard of that. Yes, the power attack only amplifies the weapon damage, not the spell portion. But as far as I know it if fully functional in spell combat and spellstrike.

He means by increasing the chance of missing (and of failing to confirm critical threats).

I believe that a magus can still hold the charge while spellstriking, so a miss doesn't waste the spell by itself. It might prevent him from using spellstrike again the next round, though, since casting again while holding the charge would waste the spell.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd be happy to open the books on any of this with you if it helps you build a good Magus.:smallannoyed: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32UGD0fV45g)

And before that you had been so well disguised.

[Warlok]

But that's just it, the dex guy doesn't need to cast shield. Because dex. That's one more shocking grasp you don't have, not to mention initiative, touch AC (tanglefoot bags suck) and reflex saves. And he's spending the first round of combat actually attacking instead of buffing his AC.

And once your shield runs out, or if you don't cast it, you're pretty squishy. the DPR of a corpse is zero.



Who's going "ballistic?" :smallconfused:

Keep in mind. My whole argument (are we arguing?) is based on levels 1 & 2. At most, either build has 3 1st level spells at level 2. Most of us will take 2 shocking grasps and something else. True, I have to burn a spell, but it will be double duration from a trait and my initiative is the same or very close from a trait. (a dervish magus will not get both traits since he cant choose a first level feat other than Weapon Finesse)

I don't care much about going first in a round, as long as I have a good enough boost to initiative to beat the enemies, which I think my +4 to initiative at first level will do.

Furthermore... I will not burn a round of combat activating my shield spell. I am a Magus. I have Spell Combat. Or did you forget? I cast it for free. And I'll be in combat with an AC higher than the dex magus' and doing more damage. The entire battle. Not just for a round or two.

True, my reflex save and touch AC is 2 lower than the dex magus. As I already explained, I'll take that all day long to to do 700% more damage on average.

I realize the disadvantage of the strength magus is the dex based skills and checks. After playing this game for the last 32 years of my life, I realize the dangers of that. I built the magus both ways and had them fight straight up at first and second level. The strength magus won 8 out of 10 times.

Testing after 3rd level is difficult, because they even out a bit statistically at that point. Strength based probably picked up better armor or a ring of prot. + another feat. Dex Based picks up Dervish dance to finally get a decent damage mod (still no two handed bonus or power attack). I'd say from level 3-5 they are fairly even, The advantage of the damage modifier being reduced greatly between the builds, and the better AC to the Dex build about the same as before. The thing that keeps it interesting and for me puts it in favor of the strength build is that 3rd level feat the dervish does not get. Those are huge at early levels. You could snag Toughness, improved initiative, combat casting, Extra Arcane Pool, etc.
By 5th level the strength build is well on his way to boosting/customizing with feats while the dex build FINALLY gets her first choice of a feat.

Again, it's all tastes. I have not blindly chosen the strength build over dex. I went into it thinking dex but came out of it with the opposite opinion.

[Warlok]

I concur with this.

You also have to watch your threat meter. The extra 2 damage could pull threat, and dead DPS do no damage.:smalltongue:

No one, until now. *hops*

Wow, I don't concern myself with threat meters. Yes, that part of the game is real, but to actually design a character to do less damage and call it better because it's less threatening? Really? The dex magus will be the squishy one. I've proven that to myself through rigorous research and testing. If you feel "safer" with the dex magus, then by all means.

[Deathkeeper]

I fail to see how getting 5-7 damage from Power Attack at levels 1-2 matters that much. Those are the levels Wizards are debatably lousy in comparison to other classes since they only have 3-4 decent spells per day, and I don't see anyone saying they're bad. A Dex Magus doesn't need Shield, his AC is high. And while Spellstrike alone lets you use two-handed blows, simply using spell combat more often makes the damage about both. I've built both. Ratfolk dervish, custom kobold dervish, tiefling strength, human strength. In the end, they're about equal in practice. By level 7 unless it comes to a serious dungeon crawl I rarely run out of spells per day and I can spell combat whenever I feel I need the damage boost and still have room to prepare a buff or situational spell. Str did slightly more damage, but he had to worry about swapping armor sets, which isn't always easy in a gold-starved game. Dex did slightly less damage but had more skill versatility, could use Fly to better effect, and was slightly handier with skills and reflex saves. My games are never very high op, but they still turned out about the same to me.

[Warlok]

I've looked at that guide multiple times, and I disagree with that particular assessment. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the topic.

That is correct, if you're using still spell. You actually can't cast any spell with a somatic component without a free hand.

Really? With a 20 point buy I bet I can make it worse real quick.

Tiefling (my preference) Strength Build
18/14 (12+2)/12/16(14+2)/8/5(7-2)

Tiefling Dervish Build.
12/20 (18+2)/12/16(14+2)/8/5(7-2)

For those of you playing at home, I switched two numbers in the builds, and wound up with a higher attack modifier. To be clear I did max out the attack modifiers of both characters.

Also to be clear, I don't like of those arrays. They were to make the point. I would not have wisdom or charisma scores that low (well maybe the charisma).

My comment on AC determining damage was that if the dervish magus is less likely to be hit, it's also likely to get knocked unconscious. One can't damage things when one is unconscious.

I have to say, That is an impressive 20 point buy as an elf, considering those scores (18/12+2/15-2/14+2/8/7) cost 25 points.

I'm also getting a higher initiative and reflex save, but then why would someone who casts spells care about that?

:smallannoyed:

It's not in the PRD because it's in a book that is far and away mostly non OGL; the Inner Sea World Guide. Not being on the PRD just means that it's not accepted for Pathfinder Society. You will not be able to convince to not allow that book any time I run a Pathfinder AP, or otherwise try to use the Golarion setting, though.

You sure? You spent your extra feat on wielding the Katana one-handed. Just to remind you. I'll also point out that EWP requires BAB +1, so you can't actually wield that weapon one-handed until level 3 when you actually meet the prerequisites for that feat.

-Made your point with a 5 charisma build?? lol.
-Never said my build was an Elf. That was your assumption. My build is a half Elf. And my stat numbers add up correctly. :)
-I already explained the use of EWP at first level through Half Elf Alt trait Ancestral Arms. Look it up. (Overrides +1 BAB requirement)
-I admit your reflex save is higher, but your lack of feats is disturbing. My Initiative is as good as yours. Hint, I used my feat wisely and have lots of traits you will never have.
-Sorry, I still dont get it...Why are you using a build with a 5 charisma for means of comparing? I don't get why that is ok but yet my research-backed build is not. :(

Thanks for the background info on the dervish feat, I couldn't recall that. Yeah, it's sort of obscure is what I was getting at. There is a chance your DM won't allow it. Nothing I am doing with my build is questionable, unless your DM is doing a core rule game or something, in which case you can't even run a Magus! :)

[Warlok]

He means by increasing the chance of missing (and of failing to confirm critical threats).

I believe that a magus can still hold the charge while spellstriking, so a miss doesn't waste the spell by itself. It might prevent him from using spellstrike again the next round, though, since casting again while holding the charge would waste the spell.

He indeed CAN hold the charge. And he could spell combat next round if he chose to by attacking first, and upon hitting, discharging the initial shocking grasp, and then cast ANOTHER shocking grasp and attacking again! (all in one round at second level) If he misses he can just try again next round as normal. He can hold the charged spell indefinitely.

[Warlok]

I fail to see how getting 5-7 damage from Power Attack at levels 1-2 matters that much. Those are the levels Wizards are debatably lousy in comparison to other classes since they only have 3-4 decent spells per day, and I don't see anyone saying they're bad. A Dex Magus doesn't need Shield, his AC is high. And while Spellstrike alone lets you use two-handed blows, simply using spell combat more often makes the damage about both. I've built both. Ratfolk dervish, custom kobold dervish, tiefling strength, human strength. In the end, they're about equal in practice. By level 7 unless it comes to a serious dungeon crawl I rarely run out of spells per day and I can spell combat whenever I feel I need the damage boost and still have room to prepare a buff or situational spell. Str did slightly more damage, but he had to worry about swapping armor sets, which isn't always easy in a gold-starved game. Dex did slightly less damage but had more skill versatility, could use Fly to better effect, and was slightly handier with skills and reflex saves. My games are never very high op, but they still turned out about the same to me.

Who mentioned anything about power attack? In NONE of my examples did I use power attack to figure any of those damage results. I simply mentioned power attack is a nice side benefit for later levels that the dervish will most likely never get.

I think when people see how lopsided those damage results are at levels 1 & 2 they assume I added power attack in or something. Nope. That is is just straight up damage. It really IS that lopsided and not one person has offered anything to defend it other than "your AC will be lower" or "you will be too big a threat".

I do agree with you that things level off after level 7 or so between the two builds... I've maintained that all along. But I have already debunked your idea that "simply using spell combat more often makes the damage about both".

My strength build will ALWAYS do 500-700% more damage than a dex build at levels 1 and 2, no matter if that is a regular melee attack, a spellstrike, Spell combat, or a combination of the two. And at those early levels, there is no buff that a dex based magus can do to improve that HUGE disparage.

[Bhaakon]

He indeed CAN hold the charge. And he could spell combat next round if he chose to by attacking first, and upon hitting, discharging the initial shocking grasp, and then cast ANOTHER shocking grasp and attacking again! (all in one round at second level) If he misses he can just try again next round as normal. He can hold the charged spell indefinitely.


I'm not sure that's true. Using spell combat is a full round action, so the player has to decide to use the ability as a block, not each component a la carte. Even if his attack(s) miss, he's still committed to casting the spell.

[Snowbluff]

500%
Your numbers might be a little off. Not sure if that or you had a seizure and hit the 0 key while typing that and decided not to backspace.

Wow, I don't concern myself with threat meters. Yes, that part of the game is real, but to actually design a character to do less damage and call it better because it's less threatening? Really? The dex magus will be the squishy one. I've proven that to myself through rigorous research and testing. If you feel "safer" with the dex magus, then by all means.

Here is some snow text. It was a joke and I didn't want to embarrass you by writing this in black.

[Warlok]

Let me bump this again for those interested in continuing the conversation.

Here is the meat and potatoes of the differences in damage between a dervish build and a strength build at levels 1 & 2. (It is important to note, the attack bonuses are identical with either build, or at least can be made so with equal point builds)

Straight up melee attack at level 1. (forget all about power attack)
18 strength, Katana (two handed) 1.5 strength modifier = 6 for a grand total of (drum roll please) +6 Damage.
The MINIMUM damage my str magus will inflict is 7. (Dervish = 1)
The MAXIMUM damage I will inflict is 14. (Dervish = 6)
Even One-Handed the strength magus owns the dex magus:
The MINIMUM damage I will inflict is 5. (Dervish = 1)
The MAXIMUM damage I will inflict is 12. (Dervish = 6

For a first or second level character, you have to admit the differences there are not small. They are the difference between fighting for 1 or 2 rounds or dragging out a battle for 4 rounds. Like others have said, a dead man has no damage bonus. So the choice is spend half the time in combat doing 6 times more damage or spend double that time taking attacks but with an AC that is 2 points higher.

At level one we have MAYBE 2 spells. Lets be real. You gotta be able to fight or get out of the way. After the Dervish build burns his 2 spells where is he with absolutely zero damage bonuses?

You could technically use just a good ole longsword instead of the Katana for those examples with the strength build and it still wins dramatically. But get the Katana or something like it eventually for the crit range boost at 5th level.

[Psyren]

It's not in the PRD because it's in a book that is far and away mostly non OGL; the Inner Sea World Guide. Not being on the PRD just means that it's not accepted for Pathfinder Society. You will not be able to convince to not allow that book any time I run a Pathfinder AP, or otherwise try to use the Golarion setting, though.

Actually, Dervish Dance is PFS legal.


Wow, I don't concern myself with threat meters. Yes, that part of the game is real, but to actually design a character to do less damage and call it better because it's less threatening? Really? The dex magus will be the squishy one. I've proven that to myself through rigorous research and testing. If you feel "safer" with the dex magus, then by all means.

He was joking, hence the smiley. There are no threat meters in D&D.

[Warlok]

I'm not sure that's true. Using spell combat is a full round action, so the player has to decide to use the ability as a block, not each component a la carte. Even if his attack(s) miss, he's still committed to casting the spell.

Magus can choose to attack, 5ft step, cast a spell in ANY order as a full round action. ANY character can choose to not take a part of a full round action. I don't HAVE to cast the spell, but I still take the -2 to my attack because I declared spell combat. Make sense now?

You are never "committed" to casting a spell until the spell is cast.That's like saying a fighter has to stand there swinging at the air after killing an enemy with his first attack during a multiple attack round because he is committed to it. He can simply choose to stop swinging based on the outcome of each swing.

[Bovine Colonel]

Yeah okay, I'll bite.
Warlok, are you willing to test this question over in the Play-By-Post forum? If so, what do you think of these rules:

You build a Str magus, I build a Dex magus, our characters duel in a best of 5 match
Level 1 or level 2 (your choice before we build characters), 20 point buy, standard average starting gold
2 traits
You choose any of the arenas featured in the Arena Tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207670) and notify me of your choice before we reveal our builds
Any and all tactics are allowed except those we specifically agree to ban beforehand (for example, I think we should set a limit on the use of consumable items)
Both of us are allowed to seek the forum's help; after all, this is a test of the character builds, not our individual optimization skills.


What do you think?

EDIT: Note that it'll be at least a week, maybe two, before I actually have time for this. I have a lot of school work I need to get done first.

[Bhaakon]

Magus can choose to attack, 5ft step, cast a spell in ANY order as a full round action.

No, the language in spell combat specifically says that the spell can come before or after the attacks, but not in between them.

I'll quote the source directly once again:


A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

[Warlok]

Yeah okay, I'll bite.
Warlok, are you willing to test this question over in the Play-By-Post forum? If so, what do you think of these rules:

You build a Str magus, I build a Dex magus, our characters duel in a best of 5 match
Level 1, 20 point buy, standard average starting gold
2 traits
You choose any of the arenas featured in the Arena Tournament (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207670) and notify me of your choice before we reveal our builds
Any and all tactics are allowed except those we specifically agree to ban beforehand (for example, I think we should set a limit on the use of consumable items)
Both of us are allowed to seek the forum's help; after all, this is a test of the character builds, not our individual optimization skills.


What do you think?

EDIT: Note that it'll be at least a week, maybe two, before I actually have time for this. I have a lot of school work I need to get done first.

Is this a head to head matchup or a situational encounter? I never did this online stuff.

The problem with this match up is the spell "color spray". I left that spell out of my test matches because when using that spell the whole battle just really boils down to whoever wins initiative since both Magi can have the spell. Sort of anti-climatic to have either of us in here bragging over that type of victory.
Might as well just both roll a 20 sided and whoever rolls higher wins the match. Same result.
I could boost my initiative bonus as high as +9 (with traits and improved initiative) if that were the case just to make it more difficult for you. Best you could do would be +6 initiative with a dervish build.

One successful color spray and the battle is over.

For general gaming just having a "good" initiative bonus is more than adequate for this character type. Going first isn't everything in the game, and for this build it is useful to go more in the middle of the pack. But head to head it is far more important.

[Da'Shain]

-Made your point with a 5 charisma build?? lol.
...
-Sorry, I still dont get it...Why are you using a build with a 5 charisma for means of comparing? I don't get why that is ok but yet my research-backed build is not. :(Point of order, when using Point Buy you may drop your stats as low as 7 before racial mods. Tiefling racial mods supplied that last -2. Completely within the rules.


Thanks for the background info on the dervish feat, I couldn't recall that. Yeah, it's sort of obscure is what I was getting at. There is a chance your DM won't allow it. Nothing I am doing with my build is questionable, unless your DM is doing a core rule game or something, in which case you can't even run a Magus! :)With the d20pfsrd, I have yet to run into a GM who doesn't just say "use w/e's on there with these specific exceptions (insert DM's own thoughts on OP options)". But fair point.


I could boost my initiative bonus as high as +9 (with traits and improved initiative) if that were the case just to make it more difficult for you. Best you could do would be +6 initiative with a dervish build.You do know that trait bonuses don't stack, right? You can't take both Reactionary and w/e the Elven +2 Init trait is (or you can, but it'd be useless).

[Bovine Colonel]

Is this a head to head matchup or a situational encounter? I never did this online stuff.
It's a head to head matchup. The arenas I linked had indicated starting points.


The problem with this match up is the spell "color spray". I left that spell out of my test matches because when using that spell the whole battle just really boils down to whoever wins initiative since both Magi can have the spell. Sort of anti-climatic to have either of us in here bragging over that type of victory.
Might as well just both roll a 20 sided and whoever rolls higher wins the match. Same result.
I could boost my initiative bonus as high as +9 (with traits and improved initiative) if that were the case just to make it more difficult for you. Best you could do would be +6 initiative with a dervish build.

One successful color spray and the battle is over.

For general gaming just having a "good" initiative bonus is more than adequate for this character type. Going first isn't everything in the game, and for this build it is useful to go more in the middle of the pack. But head to head it is far more important.

Alright, we can add a new rule:
No spells that instantly end a combat. The point of the exercise is to test the Magus's ability as a combat class, not the already-proven ridiculous power of spellcasters.

As for initiative in general, you're free to choose a map where combatants can't easily establish line of effect. I think that should reduce the effect of initiative.

[Fax Celestis]

All this scimitar talk has got me thinking: do magi get the ability to pick up flame blade from somewhere? Because that has some pretty specific "counts as a scimitar" text that sounds like it would mesh well.

[Bovine Colonel]

All this scimitar talk has got me thinking: do magi get the ability to pick up flame blade from somewhere? Because that has some pretty specific "counts as a scimitar" text that sounds like it would mesh well.

Not that I'm aware, though now I'm picturing a wand of flame blade being used exactly like a lightsaber.

[Warlok]

No, the language in spell combat specifically says that the spell can come before or after the attacks, but not in between them.

I'll quote the source directly once again:

Sorry, I automatically assume everyone has researched this as thoroughly as me.

You are referring to the free melee attack I automatically get (in place of the free touch attack) when casting Shocking Grasp.

So by your logic, using spell combat at first level, you would have to cast the spell, and wait until the next round to make your free touch attack that is part of the standard action of the spell. Which is completely incorrect.

You need to read the spellstrike description thoroughly:

"Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier."

Specifically look at:
"INSTEAD of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make ONE FREE MELEE ATTACK with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as PART OF CASTING THIS SPELL."

And:
"If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks."

So I am precisely correct. At second level any magus could melee attack twice in one round using a touch attack based spell. One attack gets the weapon damage + the spell damage, the other attack is just the weapon damage (unless the weapon was already holding a charged spell from a previous round.)

And he could take a 5ft step in between those attacks as well, since one is part of the spell.

Hard to believe I know. I didn't believe it at first either, but the creator of the Ultimate Magic book confirmed it in a round table discussion. Don't have a link handy for that at the moment, sorry.

[Warlok]

It's a head to head matchup. The arenas I linked had indicated starting points.



Alright, we can add a new rule:
No spells that instantly end a combat. The point of the exercise is to test the Magus's ability as a combat class, not the already-proven ridiculous power of spellcasters.

As for initiative in general, you're free to choose a map where combatants can't easily establish line of effect. I think that should reduce the effect of initiative.

Cool. Let me know.

[Fax Celestis]

Not that I'm aware, though now I'm picturing a wand of flame blade being used exactly like a lightsaber.

I generally pick it up on my UMDmonkies for exactly that reason.

[Warlok]

Point of order, when using Point Buy you may drop your stats as low as 7 before racial mods. Tiefling racial mods supplied that last -2. Completely within the rules.

With the d20pfsrd, I have yet to run into a GM who doesn't just say "use w/e's on there with these specific exceptions (insert DM's own thoughts on OP options)". But fair point.

You do know that trait bonuses don't stack, right? You can't take both Reactionary and w/e the Elven +2 Init trait is (or you can, but it'd be useless).

Yes, but a 5 charisma?? My DM would never leave you be with that. You could have it but you would be tested. Any good DM would eat you alive for having a 5 in a stat.

At a 7 charisma I am embarrassed!

I know that trait bonuses do not stack, but racial bonuses and trait bonuses DO stack. (And again, I'm not an elf but a half elf) If I were an Elf, I could take the Fleet Footed trait and the Reactionary trait and they WOULD stack. Fleet Footed is a Racial bonus to initiative and Fleet Footed is a Trait bonus to initiative. They stack. Check it out.

[Da'Shain]

Yes, but a 5 charisma?? My DM would never leave you be with that. You could have it but you would be tested. Any good DM would eat you alive for having a 5 in a stat.

At a 7 charisma I am embarrassed!

I know that trait bonuses do not stack, but racial bonuses and trait bonuses DO stack. (And again, I'm not an elf but a half elf) If I were an Elf, I could take the Fleet Footed trait and the Reactionary trait and they WOULD stack. Fleet Footed is a Racial bonus to initiative and Fleet Footed is a Trait bonus to initiative. They stack. Check it out.So what? The character isn't good in social situations. That's what the rest of the party is for. It's a perfectly valid weakness, and one which is accounted for by the Point Buy system.

I was referring to your character as if he was a Half-Elf, as you stated he was; thus, a +9 Init without focusing on Dex to start with would be pretty much impossible. Of course if you change his race there would be other options.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Actually, Dervish Dance is PFS legal.That's very good to here. I'm even happier that I bought that book now.

And FYI everyone, 18(16+2)/14/13/16/8/7 is still not a 20 point buy (it's 22), unless you're level 8 all of a sudden.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, but a 5 charisma?? My DM would never leave you be with that. You could have it but you would be tested. Any good DM would eat you alive for having a 5 in a stat.

At a 7 charisma I am embarrassed!

Your personal playstyle aside, 5 in a stat is well within reason. I played a dwarf druid with 5 CHA. I've also played a silverbrow human dragonfire adept with 5 DEX, and an orcish barbarian with 6 INT. All were perfectly serviceable characters with unique flaws and drawbacks. Yes, it meant when my DFA got bitten by a spider with a dex-damaging poison, she fell to the ground paralyzed. Them's the breaks.

[Warlok]

That's very good to here. I'm even happier that I bought that book now.

And FYI everyone, 18(16+2)/14/13/16/8/7 is still not a 20 point buy (it's 22), unless you're level 8 all of a sudden.

Sorry, mistyped my Wisdom. Should say 7.

[geekintheground]

can you guys post a link to the matches when they start? itll be a useful tool for others (namely me)

[Warlok]

That's very good to here. I'm even happier that I bought that book now.

And FYI everyone, 18(16+2)/14/13/16/8/7 is still not a 20 point buy (it's 22), unless you're level 8 all of a sudden.

And please do give us all one good way for a 2nd level dex magus to do anywhere near the damage my build does instead of trying to catch me on a minor technicality. Way to stay on point.

[Squirrel_Dude]

And please do give us all one good way for a 2nd level dex magus to do anywhere near the damage my build does instead of trying to catch me on a minor technicality. Way to stay on point.Oh I've never tried to prove that it does more damage on a hit. Never will. Strength builds will at level 2, and later in the game probably always do more damage when hit.

I've shown that it's attack can easily be higher, that it's AC is higher, and others have stated that it's less MAD. That's all I've intended to prove.

And so, good morning to you sir.

[Warlok]

Look, I am not trying to pick a fight with all of you. And I see the rule mongers are coming out of the woodwork. Nothing about my build is illegal or outside of the ruleset. You WILL NOT catch me on a technicality because I have done all my homework. So just stop.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't see what the big deal is of doing more damage at level 1-2. Most things die super easy at those levels anyway, and for those w/ more hp... you have shocking grasp. And then at level 2 you basically get 2 attacks every round you don't have to move more than 5 ft thanks to Spellstrike + Arcane Mark (unlimited use cantrip). Not to mention how quickly the first few levels go by, and many campaigns start above level 1...


All this scimitar talk has got me thinking: do magi get the ability to pick up flame blade from somewhere? Because that has some pretty specific "counts as a scimitar" text that sounds like it would mesh well.

If it should ever be printed onto any Arcanist's spell list, you could nab it w/ Samsaran race and Mystic Past Life. Until then, UMD is probably your best bet. You could dip Pathfinder Savant for 2 levels, but that's 2 levels of Magus class progression lost, you drop a CL, and the requirements are mildly annoying. But that would let you add it to your list. Probably easier at that point to just dip Druid 1 and cast it as a druid, though.

[Fax Celestis]

Bro, ease up. You're the one getting hostile here.

[Warlok]

Oh I've never tried to prove that it does more damage on a hit. Never will. Strength builds will at level 2, and later in the game probably always do more damage when hit.

I've shown that it's attack can easily be higher, that it's AC is higher, and others have stated that it's less MAD. That's all I've intended to prove.

And so, good morning to you sir.

You have not proven a dervish magus gets a better attack bonus at level 1 or 2, or at any other level for that matter. I don't even know what MAD means. Sorry, not up on the lingo. I just build the best possible character that fits how I like to play.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Look, I am not trying to pick a fight with all of you. And I see the rule mongers are coming out of the woodwork. Nothing about my build is illegal or outside of the ruleset. You WILL NOT catch me on a technicality because I have done all my homework. So just stop.Suggestion: If you're going to talk about your build, and how it shows that elves and strength builds are the best choice for playing a Magus, it would be best not to:

A) Just show the damn stat table instead of talking about what you've done in terms no more clear than the things you've done
B) Don't use a half-elf

We're not trying to catch you on technicalities, we're trying to understand what the hell you did.


You have not proven a dervish magus gets a better attack bonus at level 1 or 2, or at any other level for that matter. I don't even know what MAD means. Sorry, not up on the lingo. I just build the best possible character that fits how I like to play.

MAD: Multi Ability Dependent. The best example is a Monk who likes to have good scores in wisdom, dexterity, strength, and constitution.

[Da'Shain]

And please do give us all one good way for a 2nd level dex magus to do anywhere near the damage my build does instead of trying to catch me on a minor technicality. Way to stay on point.I believe the only argument made for a Dex Magus doing more damage at those levels was that its AC will be higher and thus it will most likely stay up longer. Otherwise, of course a Str Magus will do more damage.

If we're talking a duel between the two, it really boils down to who gets lucky first, since both characters will probably start with 9-10 HP. Dex Magus is more likely to hit first (same or higher to hit bonus vs. a lower AC/touch AC) but less likely to kill in one hit, while the opposite is true for the Str Magus.

EDIT: My own games barely ever start before level 3, so I'm probably biased in that being underpowered damage-wise for the first two levels doesn't seem like that big a deal.

[Warlok]

I don't see what the big deal is of doing more damage at level 1-2. Most things die super easy at those levels anyway, and for those w/ more hp... you have shocking grasp. And then at level 2 you basically get 2 attacks every round you don't have to move more than 5 ft thanks to Spellstrike + Arcane Mark (unlimited use cantrip). Not to mention how quickly the first few levels go by, and many campaigns start above level 1...



If it should ever be printed onto any Arcanist's spell list, you could nab it w/ Samsaran race and Mystic Past Life. Until then, UMD is probably your best bet. You could dip Pathfinder Savant for 2 levels, but that's 2 levels of Magus class progression lost, you drop a CL, and the requirements are mildly annoying. But that would let you add it to your list. Probably easier at that point to just dip Druid 1 and cast it as a druid, though.

It is a big deal to me. levels one and two make up about 6 game sessions. 6 sessions of lame if I went dervish route. To some this is no big deal. To me it is.

And I didn't want to go into arcane mark/spellstrike for fear of blowing people's collective minds. But the use of that combination is far more deadly with a strength build over a dex build, especially at early levels. At level 2 my str magus does 16-30 damage per round (on successful attacks) without even critting. The dervish deals 4-14 damage per round with 2 successful attacks. That isn't a small difference folks. And the attack bonuses are the SAME. The strength build is not giving anything up there.

[Warlok]

I believe the only argument made for a Dex Magus doing more damage at those levels was that its AC will be higher and thus it will most likely stay up longer. Otherwise, of course a Str Magus will do more damage.

If we're talking a duel between the two, it really boils down to who gets lucky first, since both characters will probably start with 9-10 HP. Dex Magus is more likely to hit first (same or higher to hit bonus vs. a lower AC/touch AC) but less likely to kill in one hit, while the opposite is true for the Str Magus.

EDIT: My own games barely ever start before level 3, so I'm probably biased in that being underpowered damage-wise for the first two levels doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Where is everyone getting that a dex magus could get a higher to hit bonus? Through the dex stat itself? On a 20 point buy taking an 18 costs a ton (to get the 20) So good luck with that. I'll have more spells, more pool, more HP, and better concentration check (among many other things) if you went that route.

Talking a duel is largely silly unless you take casting spells out of it, because the combat is over depending on who gets Color Spray off first. Other than that, it's been my experience with this game (d&d and pathfinder) that your best defense is a good offense. Take out opponents faster and they hit you less. 16 AC and get a couple attacks against you, or 18 AC and take 4 or more attacks against you. The more those monsters roll that d20, the more chance that crit is coming your way.

[Warlok]

Suggestion: If you're going to talk about your build, and how it shows that elves and strength builds are the best choice for playing a Magus, it would be best not to:

A) Just show the damn stat table instead of talking about what you've done in terms no more clear than the things you've done
B) Don't use a half-elf

We're not trying to catch you on technicalities, we're trying to understand what the hell you did.



MAD: Multi Ability Dependent. The best example is a Monk who likes to have good scores in wisdom, dexterity, strength, and constitution.

I promise to type my stats in soon. Just not looking forward to that as there is alot to it.
And why not a half elf? Do you just mean show a different build other than a half elf as well?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Where is everyone getting that a dex magus could get a higher to hit bonus? Through the dex stat itself? On a 20 point buy taking an 18 costs a ton (to get the 20) So good luck with that. I'll have more spells, more pool, more HP, and better concentration check (among many other things) if you went that route.
I'll go ahead and explain this assumption to you and posterity:

As many, including you, have stated, a race with a bonus to dex is the best kind to pick for a Magus. As such, it's easier to get a higher score in dexterity, than it is to higher score in strength. That was the point of the example point buy with the Tiefling I did earlier. The two characters' stats were the same, except the dexterity build had a 20 for dex instead of the 18 for strength.

It's also true that there is no Paizo published race that has a bonus to strength and intelligence, while there a few that have bonuses to dexterity and intelligence, making it easier for a dex based Magus to buff their two most important (in a dervish build) ability scores.

In addition, while the dexterity based magus is able to invest most of it's point buy into dexterity, as it relies on that score for both to-hit and (after level 2) damage, and does not rely on strength, it can invest more points elsewhere or simply afford to put more into dexterity. As such, it's going to have an easier time generating a high to-hit modifier than a strength build will, most of the time.

In summation:
- There are more races that allow for a Magus to have a 20 dexterity and +2 bonus to intelligence at level 1. In the case of elves and tieflings, these races also have good features that make them good casters on top of being dextrous.
- All characters like to invest some points into dexterity, as it is a modifier for many important skills checks, initiative, armor class, and reflex saving throws.
- Characters with a dex focus are able to invest more into dexterity than a strength based character can invest into strength because they rely on fewer stats.


For comparison:
Strength Based Maguses (conservatively*) require: Strength, Dex, Con, Int.
Dexterity Based Maguses (conservatively*) require: Dex, Con, Int

*I would submit that most classes probably like to have a non-negative wisdom as well, so dumping that stat is probably not ideal.


And why not a half elf? Do you just mean show a different build other than a half elf as well?No, I was just informing you that your presenting your build as the case for you knowledge of the Magus class, while that build simultaneously presents evidence that contradicts previous claims made by you about ideal Magus builds. It's something I would advise against in future discussions, is all.

[Warlok]

Half Elf Magus Level 1 (20 point buy)
18
14
12
16
7
7

AC 16 (Leather Lamellar armor)

Init Bonus: 4

Feats:
Ancestral Arms (katana)
Additional Traits

Traits:
CS-Conspiracy Hunter +1 trait bonus to Perception and Perception is class skill (stacks with keen senses)
CG-Lore Seeker +1 to knowledge Arcana and +1 CL to 3 spells of my choice
M-Focused Mind +2 to concentration checks
R-Elven Reflexes +2 to initiative
Alt Trait Ancestral Arms - Half Elf Specific

Basic attacks: (assume using arcane pool)
Katana one-handed +5 to hit/ 1d8+5 dmg (Crit 18-20x2)
Katana Two-Handed +5 to hit/ 1d8+7 dmg (Crit 18-20x2)

With Spell Combat - Shocking Grasp:
Katana one-handed +3 to hit/ 1d8+5 dmg (Crit 18-20x2)
+ Free touch attack dealing 2d6 damage

And looking ahead to second level...

Second level Spell Combat/SpellStrike with Shocking Grasp:
Katana one-handed +4 to hit/ 1d8+5 +3d6 Dmg
+ 2nd attack at +4 to hit/1d8+5 Dmg

Or just Spellstrike with Shocking Grasp:
Katana Two-handed +6 to hit/ 1d8+7 + 3d6 Dmg

I also have builds using the toughness feat and the dodge feats which I like equally. I could easily use a long sword and do a human build with 2 starting feats to take additional traits AND toughness (or dodge) I could then switch to a Katana at 3rd or 5th level if I desired. Probably 5th as that is where the big jump in crit range comes into play.

I hate having 2 low scores, but that seems the norm with these builds. Even with Elf or Tiefling, you are going to have at least one huge dump stat to maximize your combat effectiveness.

[Warlok]

I'll go ahead and explain this assumption to you and posterity:

As many, including you, have stated, a race with a bonus to dex is the best kind to pick for a Magus. As such, it's easier to get a higher score in dexterity, than it is to higher score in strength. That was the point of the example point buy with the Tiefling I did earlier. The two characters' stats were the same, except the dexterity build had a 20 for dex instead of the 18 for strength.

It's also true that there is no Paizo published race that has a bonus to strength and intelligence, while there a few that have bonuses to dexterity and intelligence, making it easier for a dex based Magus to buff their two most important (in a dervish build) ability scores.

In addition, while the dexterity based magus is able to invest most of it's point buy into dexterity, as it relies on that score for both to-hit and (after level 2) damage, and does not rely on strength, it can invest more points elsewhere or simply afford to put more into dexterity. As such, it's going to have an easier time generating a high to-hit modifier than a strength build will, most of the time.

In summation:
- There are more races that allow for a Magus to have a 20 dexterity and +2 bonus to intelligence at level 1. In the case of elves and tieflings, these races also have good features that make them good casters on top of being dextrous.
- All characters like to invest some points into dexterity, as it is a modifier for many important skills checks, initiative, armor class, and reflex saving throws.
- Characters with a dex focus are able to invest more into dexterity than a strength based character can invest into strength because they rely on fewer stats.


For comparison:
Strength Based Maguses (conservatively*) require: Strength, Dex, Con, Int.
Dexterity Based Maguses (conservatively*) require: Dex, Con, Int

*I would submit that most classes probably like to have a non-negative wisdom as well, so dumping that stat is probably not ideal.
No, I was just informing you that your presenting your build as the case for you knowledge of the Magus class, while that build simultaneously presents evidence that contradicts previous claims made by you about ideal Magus builds. It's something I would advise against in future discussions, is all.

All of this is common knowledge to me and I tried every one of those builds. And they all sucked at first level and offered zero ways to not suck at levels 1 and 2. Yeah, dumping wisdom is harsh and is probably my biggest hesitation, but at the cost making a feeble melee attacker I found it an acceptable alternative. And after level 2 it is not like the dervish becomes better somehow. His attacks are still weaker, his to hit is not any higher, he still cant attack two handed or power attack (and never will with his scimitar)

It all comes down to if you can accept the level one and two suckage that the dervish offers in order to get your prize at level 3. I am too impatient for that. If we started at level three it would be a toss up between the different builds.

And I dont think I ever contradicted myself regarding this build. Sorry if you think that.

[Warlok]

My personal feeling on the class is that going the Dervish route is sorta lame, even if you didn't suck at levels 1 & 2. Like I said before, the feat itself is kind of lame and very campaign specific. Prerequisites are goofy too. Waste of early skill points on top of the wasted feat.

I think a build like mine is more in line with what was intended for the class. At least that is my opinion. The dervish build reeks of a crazed search to maximize a build for that class that was never really intended for it. Just seems off.

I prefer to think of the strength build as the "norm' for the class and the dervish build as the wanker min/max attempt at breaking the class (albeit failing to do so)

Please ignore all of my posts on the topic if you are starting at higher levels. Either build is fine then for most.

[Warlok]

On a side note, if you already have a spellcaster in your ranks, then the Kensai build may be for you. Crazy maxed out melee combatant right out of the gate. If you always play a fighter and have been wanting to add in a few spells without giving up too much, it's a great route to take. Pretty easy to build one and run one.

[TheIronGolem]

I prefer to think of the strength build as the "norm' for the class and the dervish build as the wanker min/max attempt at breaking the class (albeit failing to do so)

Seeing as how 1)there is no "norm", and 2) the dervish build serves to express a particular concept that is distinct from that expressed by a STR-based build regardless of level, you are objectively wrong.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Traits:
CS-Conspiracy Hunter +1 trait bonus to Perception and Perception is class skill (stacks with keen senses)
CG-Lore Seeker +1 to knowledge Arcana and +1 CL to 3 spells of my choice
M-Focused Mind +2 to concentration checks
R-Elven Reflexes +2 to initiative
Alt Trait Ancestral Arms - Half Elf Specific More to poke fun than critique the build. I don't care enough at this point to critique.

May I ask why you Outlander (Lore Seeker) from the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, and Conspiracy Hunter from the Council of Thieves adventure path? :smalltongue:

[Warlok]

More to poke fun than critique the build. I don't care enough at this point to critique.

May I ask why you Outlander (Lore Seeker) from the Rise of the Runelords adventure path, and Conspiracy Hunter from the Council of Thieves adventure path? :smalltongue:

Outlander was added as a general campaign trait to the ultimate campaign book. I double checked with numerous sources and this is very legal to have both. What else you got? I can do this all night. Hell, I could make a few changes and get the exact same results if you doubt my sources so it really doesnt matter. I got traits out the wazoo to pick from and I get 4 extra.

Poke fun all you want. The OP asked "why the the dervish dance magus", and I offered some reasons "why NOT" as he seemed to be looking for both angles. I think I offered some pretty compelling reasons why the strength magus is every bit as powerful as a dex magus at high levels and some uncontestable reasons why the strength magus is infinitely better at levels 1 and 2. Obviously the latter can not even be argued.

It seems that is hard for some to accept, so they get a bit defensive and try to embarass me, catch me on a technical, or poke fun at me. I really could give a crap. Just trying to help those on the fence with magus builds because I just exhausted every possible angle on the class with a considerable time investment. I wish I had run into someone with this info 3 weeks ago when I started investigating this class.
I initially found Walters guide to the magus and the dervish build sounded amazing. Only after building it out alongside a strength based did some flaws start to appear with the dervish build. And the longer I researched it, the worse it got.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Outlander was added as a general campaign trait to the ultimate campaign book. I double checked with numerous sources and this is very legal to have both. What else you got? I can do this all night. Alright then.


I initially found Walters guideThat should be Walter's guide.

[Warlok]

Actually, Dervish Dance is PFS legal.



He was joking, hence the smiley. There are no threat meters in D&D.

Sorry, the joke clearly went over my head. If thats a joke I guess I need a Lesson in nerd humor. Still dont see what is funny.

What I thought he really meant was how an intelligent enemy determines his next target, which he determines by how much of a threat each opposing character is.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Still dontI c wut u did thar.

[Warlok]

Alright then.

That should be Walter's guide.

Im typing on a friggin kindle... give me a break.

[Da'Shain]

Just because I'm still up and feel like responding in the hopes of constructive debate:

Tiefling Magus Level 1 (20 pt buy)
Str 10
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 5

AC 19, touch 15 (Leather Armor)
Init 7
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Traits: Lore Seeker (+1 CL Shocking Grasp, Frostbite, w/e else) (I didn't know this was no longer campaign specific, cool), and let's say Reactionary (+2 Init)
Racial Alt Trait: Scaled Skin (+1 Nat Armor, Resist [element] 5)

Attacks
Rapier +6 to hit, 1d6+1 dmg, 18-20/x2 (arcane pool)
Spell Combat Shocking Grasp +5 touch (+8 vs metal), 2d6 damage (elec.)
or
Spell Combat Frostbite +5 Touch, 1d6+2 nonlethal damage (cold) plus fatigue


Here we have a more defensive character who's still capable of doing enough damage to seriously wound most first level characters and kill them if both attacks connect; he's also more likely to go first, slightly more likely to hit and less likely to be hit in turn (either by normal attacks or touch spells), and his Ref and Will saves are +3 and +2 higher, respectively. He has less of a check penalty from his armor and has higher modifiers in a variety of oft-used Dex skills, and is actually quite stealthy despite not having it as a class skill.

He's not an uber damage dealer, no, but he's still a front line fighter capable of dishing out hurt when he has the slots to do so and more likely to survive another's attack. Thus, for players who are NOT focused on doing damage to the exclusion of all else, he's still a perfectly viable build, one which will only get better when Dervish Dance comes along at 3rd level.


My personal feeling on the class is that going the Dervish route is sorta lame, even if you didn't suck at levels 1 & 2. Like I said before, the feat itself is kind of lame and very campaign specific. Prerequisites are goofy too. Waste of early skill points on top of the wasted feat.I'm ... really not sure how "campaign-specific" can be a point against the feat (which is explicitly allowed in PFS of all things) when your build relied on traits that were until very recently campaign specific and "Eastern" weapons and armor, both of which I've seen banned more often than Dervish Dance. As for them being "lame", well, that's one man's opinion.


I think a build like mine is more in line with what was intended for the class. At least that is my opinion. The dervish build reeks of a crazed search to maximize a build for that class that was never really intended for it. Just seems off.

I prefer to think of the strength build as the "norm' for the class and the dervish build as the wanker min/max attempt at breaking the class (albeit failing to do so).Okay, statements like this, right here? This is why people have been leaping up to attack you. You basically just called everyone who uses the feat Dervish Dance a failed munchkin wanker. If you don't like the feat, fine, ban it in your game, but when you post on a forum that discusses the actual rules, insulting people for using what's in the actual rules is bad form.

[Bovine Colonel]

Warlok - I'd just like to point out that by the rules I've posted each build is allowed two traits to work with. Unless your intention is to suggest that a Strength magus requires five to work, I suggest we stick with the two.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Warlok - I'd just like to point out that by the rules I've posted each build is allowed two traits to work with. Unless your intention is to suggest that a Strength magus requires five to work, I suggest we stick with the two.He selected the feat that allows him to take extra traits.

I haven't been able to find the section in Ultimate Campaign where the Rise of the Runelords trait is listed as a general trait, however. Warlok, were you thinking of the Advanced Players Guide? I know that it's listed as a campaign trait there.

[ShadowFighter15]

He selected the feat that allows him to take extra traits.

I haven't been able to find the section in Ultimate Campaign where the Rise of the Runelords trait is listed as a general trait, however. Warlok, were you thinking of the Advanced Players Guide? I know that it's listed as a campaign trait there.

Actually - if Outlander's a generic Campaign Trait, he still can't take it with the one from Council of Thieves. You can't have more than one trait from a single category; so you could have a Campaign Trait and a Combat Trait, but not two Campaign Traits. Or did the feat he took for extra traits get around that restriction as well?

EDIT: Nope, doesn't bypass that restriction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits). Even specifically says that it doesn't get around it. And, no; a generic Campaign Trait and an AP-specific Campaign Trait are not from separate lists - they're both Campaign Traits and you can only have one trait from the Campaign Trait list.

[Warlok]

Actually - if Outlander's a generic Campaign Trait, he still can't take it with the one from Council of Thieves. You can't have more than one trait from a single category; so you could have a Campaign Trait and a Combat Trait, but not two Campaign Traits. Or did the feat he took for extra traits get around that restriction as well?

EDIT: Nope, doesn't bypass that restriction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits). Even specifically says that it doesn't get around it. And, no; a generic Campaign Trait and an AP-specific Campaign Trait are not from separate lists - they're both Campaign Traits and you can only have one trait from the Campaign Trait list.

You guys are too funny. So EAGER to prove my build a cheat. My DM specified that I would be allowed to choose one CT from the players guide and one from the "hardbacks" as it were. Like I said, it's not a huge deal really, just a means to an end. With the additional traits feat there are other ways of attaining the same outcome.

And, I'm sorry, the Dervish build is unfitting and is, "IN MY OPINION" (caps this time, seems everyone missed that) a wanky attempt at exploiting the class and the feat itself. What is not opinion, is the fact the dervish build IS weaker at earlier levels (yes, even allowing a 5 Charisma). Regarding damage, TONS weaker. I get the whole MAD thing, it totally makes sense, but in this case it just doesn't give you better results IF you want to play the class the way it was intended.

So the Dervish feat is PFS approved. But just try finding the thing in any of the books. It's not there. Not even on the pathfinder website PRD. It's in the Inner Sea World Guide, which I don't own, and probably 90% of the people using the feat don't own it either. From what I know the feat was designed to enhance the flavor of that setting/world (Golarion) I think the feat was even specific to a particular cult region within that world setting. I'm sure someone will jump in here and PROVIDE further information. If any of that rings true, it just screams "exploit". It's probably why everyone is so "mum" about the origin of the feat when recommending it, because its exploitative to use it outside that world setting. Again, my OPINION... which is what the OP asked for.

Other than my Campaign Trait (which IS from the path were are playing) everything in my build is straight from the books, no bending of what was intended by the creators. I hate even saying that, because sometimes that is the fun of creating, but the immediate jump by so many to the Dervish feat for the magus is just so very typical and unoriginal at this point. And so many people are still doing it wrong, taking the scimitar at first level when you technically cannot. (I know it's not a big deal because your damage will suck just as bad with a rapier at level 1 and 2)

It's my belief that the intention of the creators of the Magus was to have an armored mage who could stand alongside fighters in combat. By going all out dex/dervy it turns the class into a Sinbad with magic. I just don't like that flavor myself outside of the intended setting. That's me. By all means do what you want. I was simply trying to answer the original poster's call.

[Warlok]

He selected the feat that allows him to take extra traits.

I haven't been able to find the section in Ultimate Campaign where the Rise of the Runelords trait is listed as a general trait, however. Warlok, were you thinking of the Advanced Players Guide? I know that it's listed as a campaign trait there.

It's in the Ultimate campaign Guide. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/characterBackground/traits.html

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's in the Ultimate campaign Guide. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/characterBackground/traits.html I had already looked through that page, done a cntrl+F search, and then looked through it again.

I could not find the outlander trait, lore seeker trait, or any mention of campaign traits on that entire page. In addition, of all the traits on that page, I could only find one trait that allowed you to pick a spell to permanently cast at +1 caster level, so it doesn't appear to have been renamed but remained the same in mechanics, either.

Are you sure you're not thinking about the traits list in the Advanced Player's Guide? Again, I can safely say that I know it's there.

[Warlok]

Warlok - I'd just like to point out that by the rules I've posted each build is allowed two traits to work with. Unless your intention is to suggest that a Strength magus requires five to work, I suggest we stick with the two.

You were so eager to craft that witty reply you failed to read that my build has the additional traits feat. And an ALTERNATE TRAIT is not considered a trait slot. So there are only 4 traits. Apology accepted in advance.

And as a side note, I built a human strength magus that was JUST as potent, with higher ability scores, and no additional traits. I just have a preference for the half elf for my build and that nifty Ancestral Arms alt trait. Yes, even love it so much that I'm willing to sacrifice a bit on my scores to get it. Crazy huh?

To anyone taking sides here, read back through some of these posts, these pathfinder scholars are so confident and eager to "catch" me on a technicality that they either fail to research the topic first or simply fail to read what I wrote! I admit I became slightly irritated when this began happening because people just weren't providing accurate information and advice on the topic and they were trying to make me look the fool on top of that. It even resorted to some mocking me for typos.

Replies crafted, such as the one from this poster, are an example of that passive/aggressive response. Of course you didn't resort to calling me names (you are far too smooth to do that), but rather you tried to make me look the fool and veiled your insult as an attempt to school me on the rules of this game which obviously backfired, as did all the other attempts as well.

[Warlok]

I had already looked through that page, done a cntrl+F search, and then looked through it again.

I could not find the outlander trait, lore seeker trait, or any mention of campaign traits on that entire page. In addition, of all the traits on that page, I could only find one trait that allowed you to pick a spell to permanently cast at +1 caster level, so it doesn't appear to have been renamed but remained the same in mechanics, either.

Are you sure you're not thinking about the traits list in the Advanced Player's Guide? Again, I can safely say that I know it's there.

You are correct! Sorry about that. I was going back and forth on those two pages so much I got them confused. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedNewRules.html

[Squirrel_Dude]

And, I'm sorry, the Dervish build is unfitting and is, "IN MY OPINION" (caps this time, seems everyone missed that) a wanky attempt at exploiting the class and the feat itself. What is not opinion, is the fact the dervish build IS weaker at earlier levels (yes, even allowing a 5 Charisma). Regarding damage, TONS weaker. I get the whole MAD thing, it totally makes sense, but in this case it just doesn't give you better results IF you want to play the class the way it was intended. I'm going to respectfully disagree with the tone conveyed by your language.


So the Dervish feat is PFS approved. But just try finding the thing in any of the books. It's not there. Not even on the pathfinder website PRD. It's in the Inner Sea World Guide, which I don't own, and probably 90% of the people using the feat don't own it either. I do not understand your implied correlation between book ownership and quality of implementation of that book's rules.


From what I know the feat was designed to enhance the flavor of that setting/world (Golarion) I think the feat was even specific to a particular cult region within that world setting. I'm sure someone will jump in here and PROVIDE further information.OOh, me. Dervish of Dawn is most likely referring to the cult of the Dawnflower that persists mostly in Qadira and Katapesh. The Dawnflower is Sarenrae, goddess of healing, redemption, and the sun. They are probably an attempt to try and emulate a romanticized image of a oriental warrior dancing through the battlefield with a saber in their hand. Today, dervishes are probably most commonly brought up in popular culture when someone says "whirling dervish," which refers to Sufi whirling.


If any of that rings true, it just screams "exploit". It's probably why everyone is so "mum" about the origin of the feat when recommending it, because its exploitative to use it outside that world setting. Again, my OPINION... which is what the OP asked for.To quote the dogma on this kind of argument, "fluff is mutable" and "blah blah blah mechanics blah."


And as a side note, I built a human strength magus that was JUST as potent, with higher ability scores, and no additional traits. I just have a preference for the half elf for my build and that nifty Ancestral Arms alt trait. Yes, even love it so much that I'm willing to sacrifice a bit on my scores to get it. Crazy huh? Half Elves and humans have the same ability score bonus? Did you take alternate racial trait?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Other than my Campaign TraitTraits. Plural. :smallwink:

Also, to quote the information in the Advanced Player's guide on Campaign traits.

APG pg 326
"These traits are specifically tailored to give new characters an instant hook into a new campaign. Campaign traits tailored to a specific Pathfinder Adventure Path can always be found in that Adventure Path’s Player’s Guide, available at paizo.com."


APG pg 331
"Campaign traits are specifically designed to tie your character into a campaign’s storyline, and often give you a built-in reason to begin the first adventure. For this reason, GMs usually create their own campaign traits for their PCs. If your GM uses campaign traits, one of your starting traits must be a campaign trait. Your other trait can be chosen from one of the other types of traits.

A sample list of campaign traits follows, created for James Jacobs’s “Shadows Under Sandpoint” campaign at the Paizo offices, set in the Varisian town of Sandpoint (see Pathfinder Adventure Path #1). While they have been
customized for that campaign, with a few modifications, they might easily be used in any campaign set in a small, coastal town beset by strange horrors from below." In short, there is no such thing as "general" campaign traits, at least not any that have been published by Paizo under such a heading. I don't really care that you got it wrong on this character sheet. It doesn't make your argument invalid. Just keep it in mind for the future.

[Warlok]

Just because I'm still up and feel like responding in the hopes of constructive debate:

Tiefling Magus Level 1 (20 pt buy)
Str 10
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 5

AC 19, touch 15 (Leather Armor)
Init 7
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Traits: Lore Seeker (+1 CL Shocking Grasp, Frostbite, w/e else) (I didn't know this was no longer campaign specific, cool), and let's say Reactionary (+2 Init)
Racial Alt Trait: Scaled Skin (+1 Nat Armor, Resist [element] 5)

Attacks
Rapier +6 to hit, 1d6+1 dmg, 18-20/x2 (arcane pool)
Spell Combat Shocking Grasp +5 touch (+8 vs metal), 2d6 damage (elec.)
or
Spell Combat Frostbite +5 Touch, 1d6+2 nonlethal damage (cold) plus fatigue


Here we have a more defensive character who's still capable of doing enough damage to seriously wound most first level characters and kill them if both attacks connect; he's also more likely to go first, slightly more likely to hit and less likely to be hit in turn (either by normal attacks or touch spells), and his Ref and Will saves are +3 and +2 higher, respectively. He has less of a check penalty from his armor and has higher modifiers in a variety of oft-used Dex skills, and is actually quite stealthy despite not having it as a class skill.

He's not an uber damage dealer, no, but he's still a front line fighter capable of dishing out hurt when he has the slots to do so and more likely to survive another's attack. Thus, for players who are NOT focused on doing damage to the exclusion of all else, he's still a perfectly viable build, one which will only get better when Dervish Dance comes along at 3rd level.

I'm ... really not sure how "campaign-specific" can be a point against the feat (which is explicitly allowed in PFS of all things) when your build relied on traits that were until very recently campaign specific and "Eastern" weapons and armor, both of which I've seen banned more often than Dervish Dance. As for them being "lame", well, that's one man's opinion.

Okay, statements like this, right here? This is why people have been leaping up to attack you. You basically just called everyone who uses the feat Dervish Dance a failed munchkin wanker. If you don't like the feat, fine, ban it in your game, but when you post on a forum that discusses the actual rules, insulting people for using what's in the actual rules is bad form.

Not bad! It's cool if you want to be a wait & see character at levels 1&2 after your spells run out. After 3rd you get comparable damage to the strength build one handed. Still no two handed or power attacks. I could never run a character with a 5 charisma though. Nor have I ever met a DM that would let me ever live that down. And YES, there is a huge difference between a 7 and a 5. It's like the difference between a character who is rash and unlikable to someone that is hideously deformed and has never bathed.

And about this whole presumption of why people are attacking me. I prefaced that entire reply with "IT IS MY PERSONAL OPINION..." You even quoted me on it. Do you think that maybe when someone starts a reply with those words, everything that follows may, in fact, be his "personal opinion"? It IS my personal opinion that the dervish build is a complete exploit, allowed by the society or not. But you may have the opposite opinion. Obviously many do.

You are reaching for straws on the whole eastern weapons. You are comparing my use of a single exotic weapon (printed in the rulebooks mind you) to someone building an entire class/character around an obscure feat intended for some cult in a distant world/realm. Just about every weapon in the exotic weapon list is a far eastern weapon of some sort, so might as well just not allow exotic weapons at all?

It is my opinion that it is more plausible to have a 1st level character happen upon an exotic blade somehow. Maybe his uncle who was a great adventurer left it to him? I can think of a hundred more ways that are totally relevant.

But a believable way to have a second level character go off and train/ learn an other-worldly cultist feat? Not so simple in my opinion. Sure, it's perfectly within the rules as so many have defiantly pointed out, but it just sounds goofy & exploity to me. I guess with the popularity of this feat exploit, there are plenty of dervish trainers all over the lands nowadays. Obviously I dont like it too much, but I DID do some research and shared the results, which have yet to be proven wrong.

PS. Some pathfinder savants in this thread have gone as far as researching my older threads to try and catch me on something. I admit, there was a time I was sold on the dervish build as well. This was when I first started my research and found walters guide to the magus. Then I started testing the builds, researching further, and I made some discoveries. I even figured out some of that stuff in walters guide is just flat out incorrect since I made those older posts. So if you want to go digging, keep that in mind before this gets really ugly.

[Warlok]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the tone conveyed by your language.

I do not understand your implied correlation between book ownership and quality of implementation of that book's rules.

OOh, me. Dervish of Dawn is most likely referring to the cult of the Dawnflower that persists mostly in Qadira and Katapesh. The Dawnflower is Sarenrae, goddess of healing, redemption, and the sun. They are probably an attempt to try and emulate a romanticized image of a oriental warrior dancing through the battlefield with a saber in their hand. Today, dervishes are probably most commonly brought up in popular culture when someone says "whirling dervish," which refers to Sufi whirling.

To quote the dogma on this kind of argument, "fluff is mutable" and "blah blah blah mechanics blah."

Half Elves and humans have the same ability score bonus? Did you take alternate racial trait?

So? How is this helping anyone? You and others keep perpetuating an argument that simply just isn't there just to continually impose your clearly higher intellect and grasp of literature and the english language, but none of the rules of the game.

Order of events:
1. A question was asked by the OP.
2. I provided fact and opinion to the OP's question.
3. Certain Pathfinder gurus found my facts different from what they considered gospel.
4. Pathfinder gurus are unwilling to except facts presented and reply with shrouded remarks dismissing my opinions as unfounded or un-researched. Meanwhile, every single attempt proves the opposite.
5. I get irritated with these select "gurus" and it begins to show. All I wanted to do was help out the guy and provide some other options and I was being attacked.
6. I don't even know what this sentence means.
"fluff is mutable" and "blah blah blah mechanics blah."

I have never used the expression "ooh me" in my entire life. You are clearly operating on a level I could never imagine.

Your entire backstory on everything "Dervish" is just... very wikipedia. Say what you want... still seems like what I originally said it was... an otherwordly cultist feat designed to flavor a specific campaign setting. If that historical tie-in you typed up makes some folks feel better, cool.

I was under the impression that anyone could ask a question here or provide some insight without being bullied.

My correlation to ownership and using the feat? You, of all people don't understand this? Taking one paragraph (the dervish feat in this case) out of the context of an entire novel and expecting to understand what the story is about from that one paragraph. Is that an acceptable way to read a book?

I am not even going to answer your question about the Half Elf/Human ability scores. This type of "questioning" is the crap I am talking about that pisses me off with some of you guys. You and I both know that is not a question as much as it is a test see if I will make a fool of myself with my ignorant reply. (with the secret hope I will completely discredit my entire line of replies by not knowing such a simple thing as Humans have an Alt trait that allows them an extra +2 to an ability score)

Look through this entire thread... It's LOADED with "tests" just like that aimed at me disguised as questions. Then when I answer correct they either go away (because they have nothing to say at that point) or they continue on their quest to discredit me, avoiding the fact that I have firmly proven and backed up all the things I have presented here with the exception of my OPINIONS on the dervish dance feat.

[ShadowFighter15]

You guys are too funny. So EAGER to prove my build a cheat. My DM specified that I would be allowed to choose one CT from the players guide and one from the "hardbacks" as it were. Like I said, it's not a huge deal really, just a means to an end. With the additional traits feat there are other ways of attaining the same outcome.

You ever think you might be getting a little too fired up about this? I was just pointing out something that contradicted a printed rule, not saying that it totally invalidated the build.

Frankly, I don't think the difference between the two builds is big enough to matter and to just go with whichever one better fits the feel of the character you're wanting. Main reason I lean towards the Dervish Dancer - if someone's going to be fighting in light armour, they're going to be an agile person and have the fighting style to match (look at Geralt of Rivia, never wore anything that looked tougher than a chain shirt and was practically a blur of steel in a fight).

[Warlok]

Traits. Plural. :smallwink:

Also, to quote the information in the Advanced Player's guide on Campaign traits.


In short, there is no such thing as "general" campaign traits, at least not any that have been published by Paizo under such a heading. I don't really care that you got it wrong on this character sheet. It doesn't make your argument invalid. Just keep it in mind for the future.

I think this has already been established, but thanks anyways.
As long as we both learned something.

[Squirrel_Dude]

So? How is this helping anyone?I'm assuming you're referring to my first statement about your tone. The reason I brought it up is because you come off as highly confrontational, abrasive, and arrogant about your knowledge of the game, deriding others' opinions as those of people with lesser understandings of the game's rules and designers' intentions. I doubt that's your intent, and was recommending you reexamine your language because it's the kind that will often only garner fights.


You and others keep perpetuating an argument that simply just isn't there just to continually impose your clearly higher intellect and grasp of literature and the english language, but none of the rules of the game.You should lighten up. No one Not everyone is persecuting you.


Your entire backstory on everything "Dervish" is just... very wikipedia. Say what you want... still seems like what I originally said it was... an otherwordly cultist feat designed to flavor a specific campaign setting. If that historical tie-in you typed up makes some folks feel better, cool.

My correlation to ownership and using the feat? You, of all people don't understand this?The reason I don't understand it is that with so much of the book available online, and everyone here consistently referencing online sources, it seems old fashioned to tie the ability for someone to use a rule as they see fit, in such a modular system, to the ownership of a book. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't understand context, but...


Taking one paragraph (the dervish feat in this case) out of the context of an entire novel and expecting to understand what the story is about from that one paragraph. Is that an acceptable way to read a book? ...the book doesn't provide any context for the feat. There are a few feats in the book that specifically mention characters/concepts of golarion (Aldorian sworldlord, Eye of Arclord, Fortune Teller, to name some of them). Dervish Dance just isn't one of them. Surprisingly, when there are multiple prestige and and archetype build around (clearly) the same concept, the feat has nothing to say about dervishes.


I am not even going to answer your question about the Half Elf/Human ability scores. This type of "questioning" is the crap I am talking about that pisses me off with some of you guys. You and I both know that is not a question as much as it is a test see if I will make a fool of myself with my ignorant reply. (with the secret hope I will completely discredit my entire line of replies by not knowing such a simple thing as Humans have an Alt trait that allows them an extra +2 to an ability score)Wasn't a test. I asked because your language was vague and implied something that went against what I knew. I wanted clarification on what you were doing because, if you had found a way to do something cool with humans, I want to know it.


Look through this entire thread... It's LOADED with "tests" just like that aimed at me disguised as questions. Then when I answer correct they either go away (because they have nothing to say at that point) or they continue on their quest to discredit me, avoiding the fact that I have firmly proven and backed up all the things I have presented here with the exception of my OPINIONS on the dervish dance feat.Have I done these things? If so I apologize. I don't intend to.

[Fax Celestis]

Warlok, the issue is that you sound like (even if you're not trying to) a Stop Having Fun Guy. You're coming across as "UR DOIN IT RONG".

[ShadowFighter15]

Warlok, the issue is that you sound like (even if you're not trying to) a Stop Having Fun Guy. You're coming across as "UR DOIN IT RONG".

Main reason I was reluctant to post the trait thing before. Thought you'd see it as an attack on the build when it was just an informing post to point it out.

As I said before; you're getting too fired up about this - it's just numbers representing a fictional spell-and-sword character in a fictional world, nothing to get worked up about. Hell, I think storm that's been kicked up in here is what's driven off the OP, I haven't seen him post in this thread since he created it.

EDIT: Actually, just noticed - this thread was started sometime last year. 16th post was on the 4th of May last year, next one suddenly jumps ahead to earlier this month. Before he gets the wrong idea; this is not an attack on Warlok or an attempt to get his build invalidated.