Monk AoO build! Dont say swordsage

[Vixsor Lumin]

I'm going to be joining a monk only campaign soon, and I've been trying to make a reactive AoO type build. Basically I'm trying to be the untouchable passivist so damage isn't as important as high AC to me. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13167912&postcount=2. Those are my rolls (can't URL them because my phone is being weird and I don't have a computer). Anything WoTC that's not setting specific is allowed, and I get 2 flaws and traits. Id be starting at level 3, and id like to be unarmed.

What I was thinking so far was:
Str 15
Dex 12
Con 11
Wis 17
Int 9
Cha 7

Feats:
Human:sacred vow
L1: VoP
VoP Bonus 1: Intuitive strike
Flaw: Dodge
Monk 1: IUS
Monk 1:Stunning Fist
VoP bonus 2: ???
Monk 2: Combat reflexes
L3:???

ACF: Decisive Strike

Flaw: Frail

Any thought, comments, advice, or criticism?

[Gwendol]

A couple of things.

I think the Passive Way monk variant will suit your idea well:


Passive Way
The Passive Way focuses on making your opponent overreach himself or underestimate your skill.

1st-Level Skill Bonus: Bluff.
1st-Level Feat: Combat Expertise.
2nd-Level Feat: Improved Trip.
6th-Level Feat: Improved Feint.
6th-Level Bonus Ability: You gain a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to trip an opponent who is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class.
Prerequisites: Bluff 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Skill Focus (Bluff).

Second: you want reach to be able to threaten more squares and thus get more mileage out of combat expertise. Unarmed is therefore a sub-par choice (trust me, I've played an unarmed monk with combat expertise... got to use the ability once or twice in an entire adventure). Get a reach weapon allowed by your class (check out Oriental Adventures for more options).

Third: With only 12 DEX you can't really claim an AoO build. This could be offset by bracers of opportunity (MiC), but in general you may want to look elsewhere. Goliaths take a penalty to DEX, but bonuses to CON and STR which means you can still pump your DEX to 14, which is not bad. They also get powerful build bonuses to STR checks (as if being large) which means you can trip/grapple more foes successfully. Hobgoblins get bonuses to DEX and CON which is great, but the LA+1 is a little harsh.

Fourth: Don't take that flaw! Take shaky or something else... you're already a moderate HD class, why make it worse?

[Vixsor Lumin]

Hmm I like the passive way a lot and I looked at that, but I thought combat reflexes would work better instead of improved trip.

Second: I don't have Oriental Adventures, would it be worth picking up?

Third: my stats aren't set in stone yet, what if I switch Dex and Str? Id like to avoid LA if possible and most of my Feats are built around VOP and id like to get it at 1st

Fourth: I thought about Murky eyed but that seemed like cheating! Haha, I was thinking Frail because it would make sense Fluff wise, its why he avoids conflict and is more reactive.

[Flickerdart]

Don't take Vow of Poverty, it nerfs your Monk. Don't take Dodge either, it's useless unless you go for that one martial art in the Tome of Magic.

You want lots of reach, and you want lots of size increases. Reach is easy to get, with stuff like Willing Deformity (Tall) or Inhuman Reach. Abandon all hopes of being Exalted, though, which is ok because being Exalted sucks. Size is gonna be harder - you'll want a friendly spellcaster buffing you. Grab stuff like Stand Still to make sure you can do something to your enemies without damaging them or tripping them (if they're bigger and stronger than you, for instance).

[Gwendol]

I thought you would be squeezing in combat reflexes using the flaw (or one more flaw). Ideally you will want both, right?
In the case of powerful build, the LA+1 is probably worth it if tripping/grappling is on the table.

[Vixsor Lumin]

i wasnt planning on tripping/grappling, its not a very optimized campaign, so i was building more for fluff than murder haha. i mostly just want to make sure im not horrible in combat.

i didnt think that the flaw feat would count towards a fighting style. ill check with my DM. i know VoP is less useful later, but its a PbP campaign so im willing to sacrifice later levels for more power now. ill drop dodge though, not much of a loss there. inhuman reach could be hard to explain RP wise haha

what is the martial art in Tome of Magic?

[Flickerdart]

It lets you have 50% miss chance against the target of your Dodge, but requires something like 5 feats and 12 ranks in a few skills including Truenaming. So it's not terribly worth it as something to build towards.

And why would inhuman reach be hard to explain RP-wise? You're a monk, master of mystical techniques that leave men scratching their heads and wondering exactly how you flip-kicked them through that fountain while running up the wall. Why would having extra reach on your punches be out of place?

[Gwendol]

When you said you wanted not to focus on damage those two combat options came to mind. Both tripping and grappling are useful alternatives to dealing non-lethal damage as they provide both you and your team with more opportunities to get an upper hand vs your foe.
In any case, try and get a reach weapon!

[Vixsor Lumin]

Huh…… thats a good point haha. i just pictured it as an extra joint complete with a new forearm. Maybe i say its compressed air? or that im a monk and just deal with it? haha

ew truenaming. ok that is the final nail in dodges coffin haha so new feats!

L1:Combat expertise
human: Aberrant blood
Monk 1:IUS
Flaw: Inhuman Reach
Flaw:Intuitive strike
Monk 1 bonus:Stunning fist
monk 2: Improved trip?
L3:combat reflexes

that look better?

id like to reduce MAD and make Wisdom do more. Can i still take intuitive Strike?

[Vixsor Lumin]

does decisive strike have the same limits as flurry of blows? i dont think so but im away from my books right now

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, you can still take Intuitive Attack, since having Aberrant Blood in no way precludes you from being Exalted.

[Crasical]

*looks at the thread title*

See, I understand
What you're getting at,
Overall I think it's a noble goal,
Really, I applaud your efforts.
Definitely, you should stick with monk.
Some say that they are underpowered
And that they are MAD in everything but cha
Game-breakingly weak in offense and defense.
Even though people say things like that, it's fine.

And with that smartarse behavior out of the way I'll leave so y'all can get some real work done, since I don't know the first thing about building for defense.

[sonofzeal]

If I was going to play a pure Monk, I'd go VoP..... on top of the Monk variant in DM that gets Wildshape. :smallamused:

Might even get higher AC than you'd be getting this way, too.

[Aeryr]

Monk of the enabled hand, from DMC gives you free AoO against enemies attack you, if IRC.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Whats enabled hand from? And what's the argument for VoP? My reason for wanting it was bonus feats, better stuff right this second, and not having to worry about equipment in a (probably) short lived campaign. Wildshaping would be great, but like I said its not a very High OP game

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

You need to spend 2 feats to get VoP, that is hardly a way of getting bonus feats. Yes sure VoP grants bonus feats but they are uninteresting.

That said,
the best AoO monk is a tashalatora warmind monk.

[Fyermind]

If you are going for AoOs and not for damage or tripping and taking intuitive attack, you will never need such high strength. Put that nice score in dex instead.

Generally I'd say look for defensive throw from Complete Warrior because that is totally a passive monk thing to do (every attack that misses you provokes an AoO usable only for a trip attack). Aikido/Judo ftw.

In terms of maxing your AC at low levels, you want high WIS and DEX, which is another reason to put your emphasis on dex > str.

You are a monk, you will not level well. That is okay. If it is only monks, you will not be a waste of space later.

If you want AC being small is nice. If inhuman reach works with small size (not sure) it might be worth sacrificing a feat to be a halfling or whisper gnome.

Lastly, martial study (some shadow hand maneuver), martial stance (child of shadows), shadow blade get you concealment when you move and dex to damage. Check if missing due to concealment triggers defensive throw, if it does this may be worth three feats if you have them to spare.

[Aeryr]

Whats enabled hand from? And what's the argument for VoP? My reason for wanting it was bonus feats, better stuff right this second, and not having to worry about equipment in a (probably) short lived campaign. Wildshaping would be great, but like I said its not a very High OP game

-Monk of the enabled hand is at the dragon magazine compendium.

-VoP let's out many movement forms, and some utility, might want to get a dip in priest and sacred fist or take tashalatora to reduce the penalties on it.


If you are going for AoOs and not for damage or tripping and taking intuitive attack, you will never need such high strength. Put that nice score in dex instead.

Generally I'd say look for defensive throw from Complete Warrior because that is totally a passive monk thing to do (every attack that misses you provokes an AoO usable only for a trip attack). Aikido/Judo ftw.

In terms of maxing your AC at low levels, you want high WIS and DEX, which is another reason to put your emphasis on dex > str.

You are a monk, you will not level well. That is okay. If it is only monks, you will not be a waste of space later.

If you want AC being small is nice. If inhuman reach works with small size (not sure) it might be worth sacrificing a feat to be a halfling or whisper gnome.

Lastly, martial study (some shadow hand maneuver), martial stance (child of shadows), shadow blade get you concealment when you move and dex to damage. Check if missing due to concealment triggers defensive throw, if it does this may be worth three feats if you have them to spare.

Probably shadow blade is not worthy, or at least not more worthy than improved natural attack, or superior unarmed strike. And child of shadows forces you to move, potentially loosing iteratives. If you are going to take VoP you probably want feats that allow more movement options, like animal devotion (fly) or travel devotion (move as a swift action).

There is strongheart halfling that will still let you take 2 feats at level 1, being able to take the VoP if you want to. If you are going to go VoP take the nymph kiss early on for more skill points, and intuitive attack, if you can also take touch of golden ice at a level as low as possible (it is broken when the DC is relevant) and there are not so many good exalted feats. If you are going VoP you deffinetly want holy strike (from complete champion).

Overall there are many ways of getting AoO, monk of the enabled hand, karmic strike, rovillar's gambit, defensive throw, that can be used to trip (if you have improved trip that is a free attack against a prone enemy).

If you want to be small, note that you will have penalties for tripping/graping against enemies larger than you (mostly everyone), if you believe that the trade for AC is worth it I recomend looking at halfling monk substitution levels (races of the wild) and hin disciple (champions of valor) both contrarest some of your penalties for being small. Hin disciple also has improved trip as a bonus feat at second level, so you don't need combat expertise.

Finally you might want to take invisible fist, from exemplars of evil, just to be able to disappear and get away if things turn ugly.

[Answerer]

The Monk class has exceedingly little to offer here. I'm not even talking about Swordsage; Barbarian or Fighter would also be much, much better. Mountain Rage would get you a free size increase; Fighter would help with the obnoxiously-large number of feats you need. Cleric 1 is always a good dip, and you can get things like Travel Devotion to improve your mobility and positioning.

Psychic Warrior, of course, would be better still: gets you feats and Expansion, which is awesome. Tashalatora means that a Human Psychic Warrior 20 has the AC bonus, flurry, and unarmed strike of a Monk 20 on top of being a Psychic Warrior 20, from level 1-20 (just take Monastic Training as Human bonus feat and Tashalatora as 1st-level feat).

But if you're literally required to be a Monk 20, the best you can do is take Improved Trip and try desperately to get reach, and hope for the best.

And absolutely do not take Vow of Poverty.

[MeeposFire]

Take decisive strike since double damage on AoO is the way to go. There is a nifty PrC in dragon magic that has to do with dragon ancestors. Once at level 10 in the PRC you can bind two which gives you DR, a bonus to saves, AC, and lets you take Opp attacks against any who attack you (and this lacks the penalties of robilars). Might be able to make that work...

[eggs]

Monk 2 has plenty of useful features. After that, not so much.

Be sure to look at the Unearthed Arcana combat schools. And notice that a Monk doesn't have to pick just one school to use - Invisible Eye and Passive Way give Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip without Intelligence or Combat Expertise requirements.

But after level 2, Cleric or Psychic Warrior would have much better payoff without too divergent concept, and each combines well with Monk. Between swift movement, size increases, tactical teleports, and straight-up number boosts, each could make this work.

[Answerer]

Yes, I did overstate my case. I meant to say "Monk 20" has almost nothing to offer, in that there's almost no reason to continue taking Monk levels after you get whatever bonus feats you're going for. Monk 2 has a fair bit to offer and theoretically there may be cases where Monk 6 at least has something going for it. But beyond that? The damage progression isn't really that impressive, the AC progression is laughable, and the various class features are so limited that they hardly matter. Reduced flurry penalties counts for something, but flurry is useless to an AoO-centric build.

Decisive Strike is an idea, though; I'd forgotten that one. I've never heard of this Dragon PrC, but it sounds solid; after all, Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike are both things I'd recommend at high levels anyway.

Even without being a Swordsage, Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Stormwind Warrior are also pretty solid here.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Multiclassing isn't an option until later, I think about level 5. So I'm moving the 15 over to dex, is karmicc strkie worth it? I know I said I was dropping dodge, but karmic strike seems to fit what I'm trying to do.

How would I combine Invisible Eye and Passive Way? I just say I'm switching styles and take the feats?

[Answerer]

If you can multiclass at 5, and you can take Swordsage, and you can do something about the alignment issues, I'd probably seriously go Goliath LA +1/Monk 5/Cleric 1/Psy War 1/Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1. Get Inhuman Reach with your 1st and 3rd feats, then take Travel Devotion at 6th, with your Cleric you want the Animal Domain for Enlarge Person (err... double-check that Goliaths are Humanoid before doing that; might be annoyingly Monstrous Humanoid), then Mountain Rage (sadly) at 9th, and nab a bunch of 3rd-level maneuvers at 10th. A 3rd-level Stance (Assassin's is traditional), too, if your DM is reasonable. A 6th level of Monk may be desirable, maybe; depends on exactly what you're getting. Robilar's Gambit comes in at 12th, IIRC.

But anyway, this gets you at least two size increases, possibly three, plus 5 ft. additional reach, and a fair bit of buffs, lots of options from the maneuvers, etc. You'll have Imp. Trip and a nasty trip modifier, and if you do go with unarmed those size bonuses will up that damage. I dunno, it seems like the best you're looking at.


Of course, simply taking Monastic Training and Tashalatora and getting into War Mind ASAP is also a great option. Works very, very well with maneuvers, too, since Sweeping Strike is awesome.

Or perhaps Ardent will work, following the same line. You might even get 9th-level Powers that way.

[MeeposFire]

Yes, I did overstate my case. I meant to say "Monk 20" has almost nothing to offer, in that there's almost no reason to continue taking Monk levels after you get whatever bonus feats you're going for. Monk 2 has a fair bit to offer and theoretically there may be cases where Monk 6 at least has something going for it. But beyond that? The damage progression isn't really that impressive, the AC progression is laughable, and the various class features are so limited that they hardly matter. Reduced flurry penalties counts for something, but flurry is useless to an AoO-centric build.

Decisive Strike is an idea, though; I'd forgotten that one. I've never heard of this Dragon PrC, but it sounds solid; after all, Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike are both things I'd recommend at high levels anyway.

Even without being a Swordsage, Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Stormwind Warrior are also pretty solid here.

Found it- Dragon Descendant. Requires Still mind and dragon touched feat (or similar).

Improves most monk abilities and gives you some nifty modal abilities to choose from as you level. The 9th level gives you the ability to AoO at any melee attack against you and an insight bonus to AC of half your class level. Combine that at level 10 with the level 7 benefit which gives you an insight bonus to saves and DR/cold iron equal to your class level and you have a decent defense base.

Decisive strike makes you deal double damage combined with size boosters this could be deadly.

Reach is an issue as always so plan for that. You may also want to add some ToB but it is a hard choice shadow hand for shadow blade, crusader for thicket of blades, or warblade for the iron heart feat? All add to the build but you are unlikely to be able to take them all. You may also need to invest in ways to get enemies to attack you as they will quickly figure out that you are hard to kill and are deadlier if attacked.

[eggs]

How would I combine Invisible Eye and Passive Way? I just say I'm switching styles and take the feats?
That's right.

"A monk can abandon her fighting style by selecting a different bonus feat at 2nd or 6th level; however, if she does so, she loses the bonus on skill checks gained at 1st level and never gains the bonus ability of the fighting style (even if she meets the prerequisites). "

But if you go the Karmic Strike route (which is friendlier to low-level play than Robilar's Gambit), straight passive way would remove the Int requirement, which is useful, and would give the PW bonus ability (+4 trip against targets denied dex to AC), which has good synergy with Invisible Fist.

[Deox]

Are you sold on being unarmed? Also, is ToB allowed?

Something that I find very useful is utilizing the Pharaoh's Fist feat from Sandstorm. Take that with a longspear (Serpent Strike) + Dancing Blade Form + Carmendine Monk + Pain Touch (possibly sprinkle in Freezing the Lifeblood later) would be fantastic.

[Empedocles]

Multiclassing isn't an option until later, I think about level 5. So I'm moving the 15 over to dex, is karmicc strkie worth it? I know I said I was dropping dodge, but karmic strike seems to fit what I'm trying to do.

How would I combine Invisible Eye and Passive Way? I just say I'm switching styles and take the feats?

If multiclassing is allowed after level 5 (and you want to do it) do Wild Monk (wildshape at level 5, but you loose some other bonuses) followed by unarmed swordsage (unless your DM is a jerk and says that unarmed damage and FoB don't stack, in which case do something with tashalatora). Oh, and sorry for saying swordsage :smalltongue:

If you don't want to go that route, get lots of reach and focus on tripping. Goliaths (they get reach right...?) and aberrant blood are both good for that. Alternatively, if you want to be competitive and still have VoP (which I advise against, although it is workable IMHO) be a raptoran. Level 5 is when everyone needs to fly, and that'll let you do it even with VoP.

[Deox]

Goliaths (they get reach right...?)\

Golaiths get powerful build, but not reach.

[Empedocles]

Golaiths get powerful build, but not reach.

Nevermind :smallfrown: Point is though, you'll need reach.

[holywhippet]

Grab at least one level in cleric with the spell domain so that you can cast mage armor on yourself. You could also consider going along the sacred fist PrC route - more cleric spells = more defensive spells.

[Deox]

Not to mention, if you can show your DM that text trumps table, the Sacred Fist gains full casting progression.

[Starbuck_II]

Complete Adventurer has a feat that gives +4 hit to AoOs. Deft opportunist (requires combat reflexes)