Rant About Dragon Shamans and Dragonfire Adepts

[Empedocles]

Everyone acts like the dragon shaman is among the worst classes in the game. Whenever I look for tips on the dragon shaman, or ask about playing one in a campaign, or just read about someone else who's using one or is thinking of using one, the immediate response is usually either that it's too weak or that he should try a dragonfire adept instead.

How can you compare a dragonfire adept to a dragon shaman?

They have exactly three similarities: draconic fluff, a breath weapon and good fortitude and will saves. Four if you include the draconic invocation ACF.

A dragon shaman is a support character and a melee combatant. A dragonfire adept is a blaster and battlefield controller. They don't even fill the same rolls.

If people compared a dragon shaman to, say, the bard (also a support character) or, better yet, the marshal (who is a support melee combatant with auras) I'd be perfectly fine with it. But saying that a dragonfire adept is the best substitute for a dragon shaman is ridiculous. They aren't even remotely similar. AND there's a misconception that the dragonfire adept is significantly stronger when the dragon shaman because it has more damage per turn, when in fact they're both Tier 4 (this part is arguable. If you allow metabreath feats for the dragonfire adept, it's a solid Tier 3. I'll also concede the point that dragon shaman is mid tier 4 while the adept is high tier 4 even without metabreath feats).

Worse still, people act like the dragon shaman is a horribly weak class. People, it's Tier 4. So is the warlock, which is a very solid class.

Common perception also seems to regard the dragon shaman as being a boring class to play. WHY?????????????????????? I see no reason the dragon shaman could be considered boring. Yes, it's auras are passive. Yes, it's main role is support. But that doesn't mean you can't be creative with it.

[/rant]

Thanks for reading :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

Duskblade is low Tier 3. Dragon Shaman by contrast is only Tier 4 by way of wishful thinking. A party buffed up by a Dragon Shaman does not kill things dramatically faster and is not dramatically harder to hurt, and the class doesn't provide anything to do in combat past round one. There are no tricks the class gives you that are Tier 4 in nature.

People play Dragon Shamans because they want to be dragonlike, not because they want to play a support character. That's why people advise Dragonfire Adept (which is also arguably Tier 3 due to its invocations being a good deal more useful than most Warlock ones).

[KoboldCleric]

It is considered a 'boring class' because nearly all of the Dragon Shaman's class features are passive. In addition, in order for many of those abilities to work you have to keep people within the rather short range of your auras, often forcing you to choose between bad tactics, wasting your turn maneuvering yourself, or not even utilizing those auras. I'd also peg it at tier 5--it's certainly no better than a Paladin (which is also primarily melee with support abilities) at best.

The Dragonfire Adept, as you point out, shares and expands upon the active abilities of the Dragon Shaman, which is why it is often suggested as a substitute. It's also not considered stronger because it can do more damage, it's considered a better class because it has a variety of useful options available to it each turn, which allow it to contribute in more and more meaningful ways than a Dragon Shaman of equal level could.

[Darth Stabber]

Having played dragon shaman, I can tell you that unless the draconic invocation ACF is way better than it seems (and it seems REALLY good), DS is the lowest teir4 if not tier5.

However in gestalt this guy is actually pretty good.

[Igneel]

I would argue about Dragonfire Adepts being Tier Four (or Tier Three with Metabreath weapons) as you say, largely on account that most Dragonfire Adept builds I know of are perfectly capable of doing other things besides blasting even without Metabreaths.

Lets take a look at some of their invocations for example:

Humanoid Shape- The ability to change into any Humanoid (not including Monsterous Humanoid) is quite a utility invocation if I have to say so myself. You are only limited by your resources with this one much like a Druid is for Wildshaping purposes. Need to fly buy don't have wings/Draconic Flight? Grab Raptorans or Flyer Saurians. Need Swim speed? Grab a Locathah. Need Burrow? Grab a Stingtail Abasil, which also provides with a Con-based poison. Etc. Even if your Dm rules that you can't use your breath weapon while using this invocation (despite how clearly it specifies you can) its a swiss-army knife.
Chilling Fog- Combines Solid Fog with Cold damage, and basically a imho better version then what the Warlock gets minus the tentacles. Falling but can't save yourself in time with flight or other things? Cast this just feet from the ground, let it slow you down, then cancel out the invocation. Being chased down a hallway? Fill the hallway behind you with it so that the enemies can't get you without going through.
Draconic Knowledge- Oh come on, a +6 to all Knowledge and Spellcraft checks? Let alone they are both Class skills?
Magic Insight- Not only do you have Detect Magic at low levels, but Identify for free as well?! Better then the Warlocks class ability Detect Magic, and the reason why most people include something similar to homebrewed invocation users that are at least arcane-flavored.
Baleful Geas- This on is highly debatable and is probably one of the invocations that is broken both in overpowered and underpowered sense. Overpowered because if you DM rules that all spells duplicated by SLA's are Standard actions you are casting a 10min spell in less then 6secs, along with getting to mind-control anything without immunity. Underpowered because if the DM rules that the SLA uses the spell's casing time you would be better off either with Charm or just killing the little bugger with fire.


So yes, the DfA is largely considered a Battlefield Controller/Blaster as opposed to the Dragon Shaman's 'Support'/very minor Meleer. My biggest problem is that the majority of the Auras aren't as good as they could be. Just look at several of the remakes/fixes out there. One of the most notable things I notice with the various works is them gaining Natural weapons and getting some more melee support. Then there are the aura rewords, at least two of the better ones I know of key it off similar to the Marshals.

I largely think that the Dragonfire Adept is so loved over the Dragon Shaman, largely because it was described as having a certain role in the party and can easily fulfill said role, as while the Dragon Shaman requires some work such as multiclassing with Bard or ToB classes to stack up.

[Darth Stabber]

I would argue about Dragonfire Adepts being Tier Four (or Tier Three with Metabreath weapons) as you say, largely on account that most Dragonfire Adept builds I know of are perfectly capable of doing other things besides blasting even without Metabreaths.

DFAs DO NOT QUALIFY FOR METABREATH FEATS, even if they get the ability to take them from another source of breathweaponry, they can't apply them to their DFA granted one. Entangling exhalation is not a metabreath feat, and can apply.

Dragon Shaman DOES qualify for metabreath feats, which is their one advantage over DFA.

[Empedocles]

DFAs DO NOT QUALIFY FOR METABREATH FEATS, even if they get the ability to take them from another source of breathweaponry, they can't apply them to their DFA granted one. Entangling exhalation is not a metabreath feat, and can apply.

Dragon Shaman DOES qualify for metabreath feats, which is their one advantage over DFA.

I'll go ahead and point out that RAW it's undeniable that DFAs can't use them, but a lot of DMs will allow it.

[Igneel]

DFAs DO NOT QUALIFY FOR METABREATH FEATS, even if they get the ability to take them from another source of breathweaponry, they can't apply them to their DFA granted one. Entangling exhalation is not a metabreath feat, and can apply.

Dragon Shaman DOES qualify for metabreath feats, which is their one advantage over DFA.

Please note that I didn't say they did, just saying that I didn't agree that they would be Tier 3 just because of metabreath usage if they could as the OP inclined here.


AND there's a misconception that the dragonfire adept is significantly stronger when the dragon shaman because it has more damage per turn, when in fact they're both Tier 4 (this part is arguable. If you allow metabreath feats for the dragonfire adept, it's a solid Tier 3. I'll also concede the point that dragon shaman is mid tier 4 while the adept is high tier 4 even without metabreath feats).

Its arguable if even getting a Metabreath capable breath from another source would allow you to use those feats on your DfA breath, but most DMs seem to allow that. So in all, there would be multiclassing with another BW capable class (Dragon Shaman, Binder, Totemist, etc), the Draconic Graft (for 56k from Races of the Dragon), and that feat from a Dragon Magazine that forces a recharge rate (albeit by 1 round) on your DfA breath that can make it 'legal'.

Sadly Dragon Shaman's get their breath at 5th level, which is another fix most people seem to do by placing it closer to lvl 2-4.

[NNescio]

... Its arguable if even getting a Metabreath capable breath from another source would allow you to use those feats on your DfA breath, but most DMs seem to allow that. So in all, there would be multiclassing with another BW capable class (Dragon Shaman, Binder, Totemist, etc), the Draconic Graft (for 56k from Races of the Dragon), and that feat from a Dragon Magazine that forces a recharge rate (albeit by 1 round) on your DfA breath that can make it 'legal'.

Also Dragonborn, heart aspect.

FUS RO DAH

[Igneel]

Also Dragonborn, heart aspect.

FUS RO DAH

How did I forget to type that one, yet think of it at the same time? Nice catch in any case.

[Empedocles]

I've never understood how having a breath weapon from another source (e.g. dragonborn heart aspect or half-dragon) would let you take that breath weapon's delay for DFA's breath weapon, and then apply metabreath feats to it...

[Darth Stabber]

I've never understood how having a breath weapon from another source (e.g. dragonborn heart aspect or half-dragon) would let you take that breath weapon's delay for DFA's breath weapon, and then apply metabreath feats to it...

It doesn't by RAW.keeping it short and sweet for once

[Empedocles]

It doesn't by RAW.keeping it short and sweet for once

But as far as I can tell, it doesn't by RAI or by common sense either...

Also, can I point out that the DFA is mind numbingly boring to play, just as a . Talk about spamming breath weapons ever single turn... There's rarely an action worth taking besides your breath weapons.

[Igneel]

I've never understood how having a breath weapon from another source (e.g. dragonborn heart aspect or half-dragon) would let you take that breath weapon's delay for DFA's breath weapon, and then apply metabreath feats to it...

Some people largely use the argument that you just need to bypass the requirements (ie the rounds recharge) and then you can apply it to any breath weapon you have supposedly like metamagic feats, or at least that's what I usually see as an explanation.

[Essence_of_War]

Also, can I point out that the DFA is mind numbingly boring to play,

Interesting.

I suppose you think the Dragon Shaman is very interesting to play? Having played one, I'd tell you that I strongly disagree. With the exception of the breath weapon, all of your class features are passive and reactive. I guess you could go for fear/intimidate optimization to supplement, but I see no reason why the DFA couldn't do that also...

The DFA has the breath weapon also, but the invocations can at least be pro-active abilities (sure, some of them are all-day buffs) and if you really want to have auras also, you can just burn a feat on Draconic Aura, and as long as you're of the dragonblood subtype you've stolen one of the Dragon Shaman's best class features...

I don't find the DFA as exciting/interesting to play as a martial adept or a psychic warrior or a caster, but I think it's VASTLY more interesting than the Dragon Shaman.

[MeeposFire]

Actually the highest level DFA breaths have a delay (of one round) and further if I recall correctly the limitation on the feats is to acquire them not to use them. Big difference if that was the case.

However they don't the meta breath feats they are just a nice bonus especially since they limit your tactical options after using them considering how important the breath is for a DFA.

Also note that the shamans most notable ability is easily acquired with one feat by a DFA.

Still I think the best idea is to combine the classes which would really shore up the whole result but would not be TOO powerful to exist in a normal game with higher tier classes (in fact it is still weaker than tier 1+2). It would allow it to be a support+control class and if you use the dice from dragon shaman as a rechargeable boost to the standard DFA breath it would give them some nice damage boost every couple of rounds.

[Essence_of_War]

...and if you use the dice from dragon shaman as a rechargeable boost to the standard DFA breath it would give them some nice damage boost every couple of rounds.

Oooo that's actually a pretty neat idea. I might steal it to test it out sometime! :smallsmile:

[Zaq]

The reason people focus on the DS's breath weapon is because the class offers you little else. The auras are too small to make much of a difference on a round-by-round basis. The healing touch is actually pretty decent, but also pretty limited if you're not specifically building for it, and it's likely to run out of juice very quickly if you use it at the potency you need to beat the "in-combat healing" problem. Everything else is just little nickel-and-dime bonuses that you're really not likely to notice on a round-by-round level. The breath weapon is pretty much your Big Trick, and it's handily outshone by the DFA's in pretty much every way (except metabreath nonsense).

[Empedocles]

One thing regarding the whole "people play DFAs and Dragon Shamans because they want dragon-esque characters" (not for the support role)...

then you should just play a half-dragon. Or, if you don't want LA, a druid with the aspect of the dragon ACF.

[Igneel]

Still I think the best idea is to combine the classes which would really shore up the whole result but would not be TOO powerful to exist in a normal game with higher tier classes (in fact it is still weaker than tier 1+2). It would allow it to be a support+control class and if you use the dice from dragon shaman as a rechargeable boost to the standard DFA breath it would give them some nice damage boost every couple of rounds.

I actually tried to make a class that combine the two, which I have kinda stopped working on mostly due to a lack of motivation. I called it the Wyrmfire Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210336), gave it slightly better combat options, invocations and auras, some homebrewed auras and invocations, flight much earlier then 19th level for the Dragon Shaman, etc. I really need to work on it again...

[MeeposFire]

One thing regarding the whole "people play DFAs and Dragon Shamans because they want dragon-esque characters" (not for the support role)...

then you should just play a half-dragon. Or, if you don't want LA, a druid with the aspect of the dragon ACF.

If you want to be like what people think of dragons DFA does it. Breathing fire on command is awesome. Half dragons are pretty bad and choosing the druid option is great if you want to be a druid but otherwise why?

Dragon shamans are not really good at the support role and most "support' in 3.5 is poorly done. The shaman fixed one aspect (most support classes have issues of needing to spend their actions on support rather than "fun" actions) with its aura but it sadly lacks anything of quality. The bard is the opposite where its support requires significant action cost but the effects are so much better that it is forgivable.

[Darth Stabber]

Actually when I played it I got permission from the GM to remove the dragon part, I was just a tribal shaman. I ended up going with white's skills and breath weapon (and the GM let me trade ice walking for wather breathing). I picked a totem animal to give me some kind of totemic flavor, but didn't receive any mechanical benefits (walrus if you are wondering, moustaches are awesome). I ended up focusing on tracking and and using a longspear to help the incarnate and warblade flank. I wasn't good at much, just following, flanking, and the occasional freezing, and those aren't all that helpful.

If I were going to do a fix, I wouldn't add his abilities to DFA, I already have a crappy class gestalt house rule that let's players gestalt 2 crappy classes instead of taking a good one.

The list:
CW Samurai, Soulknife, Soulborn, Adept, Healer, Expert, Monk, Warrior, and CA Ninja.

Dragon shaman really doesn't seem out of place on that list, and it's a decent class in gestalt for the same reasons it's crappy in regular (passivity).

[Hiro Protagonest]

You want to have draconic abilities? Be a dragonborn or dragonfire adept, or both.

You want to be a buffer? Be a bard.

You want to be someone who gives the party draconic power? Be a silverbrow bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Dragonborn if you want a breath weapon.

I see no reason to play dragon shaman.

[Empedocles]

... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook)

[MeeposFire]

... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook)

I don't think that thread helps you in any real way.

[Answerer]

The Dragon Shaman is among the worst-designed classes in the game. Not the most useless, or weakest, perhaps (though it certainly is rather both of those things), but definitely among the worst designed. The class gives you almost zero in the way of actions. You get a breath weapon that you can use once per fight, and you can get passive auras.

That's it. That's all the class gives you. One action per fight, and otherwise you sit there doing nothing.

Even the Fighter, at least, with his mind-numbing approach to combat ("I full-attack again"), is at least doing things with his attacks. The Dragon Shaman can, what? Be a really weak melee character? He's mostly just an Aura-battery. He could just as easily be replaced by some kind of totem that someone can plop down on round one and generates the aura. He could be an item for all the class offers.

[Essence_of_War]

... (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook)

If you HAVE to play a dragon shaman, at least sit down with the GitP one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214007), it's at least somewhat complete! :smalltongue:

And let me quote a few pieces of it for emphasis:

Shamanic InvocationDragon Magic: Give up an aura, learn a draconic invocation. Most of your aura's suck. If you're reading this handbook then you have learned that this is NOT an alternate class feature. You always trade an aura for an invocation; ALWAYS. There is never a reason not to. With that disclaimer out of the way two draconic invocations are standouts for selection. If you are focusing on your breath weapon grab "endure elements." If you're going the party face/imperious command route grab "Beguiling Influence." There is simply no need for 7 aura's and an urgent need for one of these two invocations. Endure Elements is so good for a Dragon Shaman that you might grab it even if you are a Party Face.


Emphasis Mine.

That's basically all you need to know about DS vs. DFA design. When given the opportunity to give up one of its central class features to dip its toe in the others, the concensus is "every day and twice on sunday".

In the other direction, the DFA barely cares about the option to get draconic auras. Draconic Aura is a reasonable feat choice but is hardly a necessary/staple/essential feat for the DFA.

[Igneel]

Personally, I like to look at some of the fixes out there as some can be quite interesting...

Some that I use/looked at are...


Dragon Shaman Reboot (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3452.0) [Brilliant Gameologists]
Alternate Totems (http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~frey/dnd/dragonshaman.html)
Dragon Shaman fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147604) [by Admiral Squish]
Heroic Dragon Shaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160615) [by Chambers]
Gem Dragon Shamans, Half-Dragons, and Dragonshard Adepts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191471) [by SPoD]
Wyrmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224235) [by T.G. Oskar]

[Lonely Tylenol]

The Dragon Shaman does have some fun tricks for it. Being passable in melee, combined with the Least Invocation ACF and even auras, means that you can optimize fear in combat very easily (even just the +6 to socials is a passable improvement). Between the Presence aura, free Skill Focus for Bluff, and Draconic Presence, you also just get a lot of passive boons to social skills which make you a good face (unfortunately, you need to add Diplomacy to your class skills, but you can do this with an early Martial Study). It's also pretty easy to snag a second breath weapon via Dragonborn (heart), which gives you access to two metamagicked breaths if need be.

They are also pretty front-loaded, however, which is both good and bad. None of the class features necessary for any of the above come online after level 5, meaning most of the rest is just scaling bonuses to breath and auras, but also that level-dependent strategies (such as demoralize tactics) can be best made very early.

They really do play to two different styles, though.

[Chronos]

I was talking with a friend IRL a couple of weeks ago about dragon shamans, and he said he found it pretty effective in a game he was playing. I asked what he did with his actions while waiting for his breath to recharge, and he said that he mostly threw vials of alchemist's fire or acid. But the thing is, alchemical items are available to anyone. You could do the same thing with a commoner. The only reason most classes don't use alchemical items is that they have better options available to them.

Now, some of the auras can be nice, but you can pick those up for a feat each. If you've got the dragonblood subtype (which all DFAs do automatically), they scale about as well as for a real DS. Better, in some ways, as they'll continue to scale if you multiclass (as most DSs will, due to not getting anything new).

One thing I will say for the DS: They make for a decent DMPC. They won't steal anyone's thunder, but they'll make the PCs a bit better, and take most of the burden of healing off the PCs' shoulders.