Increase save DC on Martial Maneuvers?

[Fooliscious]

Other than increasing the relevant modifer, are there any feats/items etc that increase the DC? a 23 reflex save on a 9th level maneuver makes me unhappy.

[deuxhero]

Take leadership and grab a Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade (dark companion) 4/Blackguard 4?

[Tulya]

You can Ability Focus eldritch blast and individual invocations for +2 DC, and Sudden Ability Focus Binder vestige abilities. I'd imagine one or both could reasonably function for ToB maneuvers.

[Fooliscious]

Would you need to take it for each maneuver? Or just, Ability Focus(Martial Maneuver)?

[Feralventas]

I believe that you can take Ability Focus (Spellcasting) by RAW, so Ability Focus (Martial Maneuvers) shouldn't be too far-fetched by comparison.

[Garagos]

Would you need to take it for each maneuver? Or just, Ability Focus(Martial Maneuver)?

Maybe take Ability Focus for one discipline? Example, Ability Focus: Diamond Mind. All Diamond Mind Maneuvers gain a DC increase.

[Fooliscious]

Style seems appropriate really. All of them seems a bit much. I don't think I'd allow ability focus(spells), that affects a ton of abilities. Spell Focus does the same thing but only applies to one school of magic

[TuggyNE]

I believe that you can take Ability Focus (Spellcasting) by RAW, so Ability Focus (Martial Maneuvers) shouldn't be too far-fetched by comparison.

While I think you might be able to, I'm also certain that by RAW it does nothing. Spellcasting does not have any associated save. (It's also arguably not a special attack.)

The individual spells can have saves, of course, but Ability Focus does not have language to handle that.


Specializing to a discipline of martial maneuvers would probably not be overpowered, although I'd suggest homebrewing a feat for that, giving a +1 to DCs on all maneuvers in a given discipline. (The +2 of Ability Focus seems a bit much.)

[Fooliscious]

I need something with some oomph to it. +2 Doesn't seem unreasonable, especially at a higher level. Or maybe a progression of feats. Swordsages are a bit MAD already without have to stack wisdom.

[Gharkash]

Blade meditation. You need one rank in Concentration, 4 BaB and one maneuver from any discipline. You choose a discipline and get +1 damage with it's chosen weapons, +2 at skill checks of the discipline's skill and +1 at the disciline's maneuver DCs.

[Fooliscious]

How did I miss that =/. Anyway, that makes Ability Focus seem fine for styles then for a feat, it doesn't do quite as much as that one. So that's up to +3. Anymore?

[Malachei]

Why would you increase save DC for martial maneuvers?

I think the best maneuvers have no save DC, at all, and save DCs are generally so low you'd need to raise them significantly.

If you stun, you want to stun without a save (War Master's Charge, White Raven Hammer), or you want to set the DC high, such as with your jump check (Swooping Dragon Strike).

[tyckspoon]

Why would you increase save DC for martial maneuvers?

I think the best maneuvers have no save DC, at all, and save DCs are generally so low you'd need to raise them significantly.


Desert Wind and Shadow Hand have a lot of saves in their offensive maneuvers. They're generally agreed not to be the best maneuvers, but it's what you have to work with if you're trying to do a magic monk/ninja approach instead of a superior physical martial artist thing.

[Darth Stabber]

Blade meditation is a nice feat, half of ability focus, half of weapon specialization, and 2/3s of skill focus.

[Malachei]

Desert Wind and Shadow Hand have a lot of saves in their offensive maneuvers. They're generally agreed not to be the best maneuvers, but it's what you have to work with if you're trying to do a magic monk/ninja approach instead of a superior physical martial artist thing.

Desert Wind is often Reflex 1/2 and keyed off Wisdom, hardly the Swordsage's highest stat (this would be Dex). Shadow Hand is keyed off Wisdom, as well, and usually Fortitude negates, which is a bad deal for the Swordsage unless he focuses on fighting creatures with low Fort saves.

As a Swordsage, I'd use Shadow Hand for transport, and even though I love the sound of Death in the Dark, I'd much prefer Swooping Dragon Strike.

I'd say Swordsages can use Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind for better offensive effect than Shadow Hand and Desert Wind.

[Big Fau]

Blade meditation is a nice feat, half of ability focus, half of weapon specialization, and 2/3s of skill focus.

And at the same time it isn't worth the feat slot because of how insignificant the bonuses are.

[Fooliscious]

Comes down to preference and style. I'm not looking to min/max overly. The idea of charging into 4-5 guys, literally exploding, and them taking legitimate damage makes me happy. Same with force chokes. Why can't I be a sith?

Another thought. Items/auras/feats I could take to lower the targets Ref/con save?

[Darth Stabber]

And at the same time it isn't worth the feat slot because of how insignificant the bonuses are.

Most static bonus feats are, at least when compared to feats that give you new capabilities. If I were a warblade focused on diamond mind, I would spend a bonus feat on it, unless I had something else pressing. Where as skill focus(concentration) isn't on the warblade bonus feat list, and only buffs concentration checks, you may as well take the damage and save DC over the +1 more to the check.

[Zaq]

Another thought. Items/auras/feats I could take to lower the targets Ref/con save?

Sounds like a job for poison. Hidden Talent for Psionic Minor Creation is probably the best way of getting your mitts on a steady supply, but whatever method works.

Alternatively, there's always Shaken (Intimidating Strike, perhaps, or Dreadful Wrath), Sickened (Brutal Strike), and the like. Netherese Battle Curse would do the job, but it's basically not possible to get it in a worthwhile manner on a Swordsage.

[sonofzeal]

Vow of NonViolence + Subduing Strike gives you a +4 DC on any maneuver that isn't ability damage, negative levels, or a death effect. Only works against Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid targets.

[Darth Stabber]

Vow of NonViolence + Subduing Strike gives you a +4 DC on any maneuver that isn't ability damage, negative levels, or a death effect. Only works against Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid targets.

A martial adept with vow of nonviolence? All of your class features ARE violence! Of course the same can be said of most classes. It works, but I would rather have a crappy save DC.

[Roguenewb]

Blade meditation is your answer here. If you want to try to something stronger, see if your DM will let you take Greater Blade Meditation, which, like Greater Spell Focus, is the same benefits, again.

[Zaq]

A martial adept with vow of nonviolence? All of your class features ARE violence! Of course the same can be said of most classes. It works, but I would rather have a crappy save DC.

VoNV is misnamed. Honestly, it usually ends up being "Vow of Nonlethality."

That said, I do believe that melee-capable character should carry around a sap or a truncheon. You never know when you're gonna need to take in someone alive, even in a dungeon crawl.

[Fouredged Sword]

Non-lethality is not so big a problem in most combat as one would think. we once had a party in a game that had a battle cry of "That one looks learderish, take him alive!". All becuse the DM once paid us bonus gp for capturing a high level NPC leader.

This was in a group that was almost pure LN or CN with a single LG crusader following member chasing the rest of the party around mitigated our disregard for not being evil when practicality reared it's head.

That said, Vow of Non-violence would be a problem with much of shadow hand due to ability damage.

Desert wind would cause normal fire damage, causing problems. Maybe get a merciful weapon and get the DM to agree that extra damage caused by a strike was weapon damage and as such was also non-lethal.

[sonofzeal]

A martial adept with vow of nonviolence? All of your class features ARE violence! Of course the same can be said of most classes. It works, but I would rather have a crappy save DC.
All VoNV requires is that you deal nonlethal damage... against Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. You can still face-stab Ogres and Elans and Aasimars and Dogs and Unicorns, if you want to.

There's a second vow that covers all those, but either way you're allowed to use nonlethal damage. And the two creature types most commonly immune to nonlethal, Undead and Constructs, are still uncovered so you can just plain whallop them in the face. There are a few things you still need to avoid (ability score damage, death effects, and coup de grace), but I've played with it before and it's not really all that restrictive.