Astral Projection

[Yorae]

So, can someone explain to me, simply, how this spell works?

It says that you must materialize a body on another plane from the Astral, but doesn't say HOW you can do this.
How long would it take to Astral Project and then find a target plane?
Can you control where in the plane you show up?
What exactly CAN cut a silver cord?
Does getting dispelled in the Astral kill you?
Could you Astral project back to the material plane you are already on?
What happens to your equipment - do you make copies of it for your astral form? What about your reformed body on the target plane? If it doesn't get copied, can you bring it with you? Can you take it BACK to your original body later via the Astral?

So confusing...

[Aharon]

1.) You just do materialize it. It's magic :smallsmile:
2.) Getting to the Astral Plane via AP doesn't take time separately from casting the spell. You then find a color pool linked to your target plane. As long as it isn't totally obscure, this is comparatively easy.
3.) Partly, you can divine for a pool that's close to your desired location.
4.) Very few things: Githyanki Silver Swords, Astral Reavers, Psychic Storms.
5.) No, it just terminates the spell.
6.) Your equipment is copied while astral. Charges and consumables used on the Astral vanish from your real possession. The copied equipment vanishes once you leave the Astral.

[Yorae]

1.) You just do materialize it. It's magic :smallsmile:
2.) Getting to the Astral Plane via AP doesn't take time separately from casting the spell. You then find a color pool linked to your target plane. As long as it isn't totally obscure, this is comparatively easy.
3.) Partly, you can divine for a pool that's close to your desired location.
4.) Very few things: Githyanki Silver Swords, Astral Reavers, Psychic Storms.
5.) No, it just terminates the spell.
6.) Your equipment is copied while astral. Charges and consumables used on the Astral vanish from your real possession. The copied equipment vanishes once you leave the Astral.

So, how do color pools work? Assuming this is in a book somewhere.

Also, does this imply that when you materialize a body, you are naked?

[Flickerdart]

No, when you materialize a body it gets a free copy of all your equipment and clothing.

[Emperor Tippy]

1.) You just do materialize it. It's magic :smallsmile:
2.) Getting to the Astral Plane via AP doesn't take time separately from casting the spell. You then find a color pool linked to your target plane. As long as it isn't totally obscure, this is comparatively easy.
3.) Partly, you can divine for a pool that's close to your desired location.
4.) Very few things: Githyanki Silver Swords, Astral Reavers, Psychic Storms.
5.) No, it just terminates the spell.
That's all true.

6.) Your equipment is copied while astral. Charges and consumables used on the Astral vanish from your real possession. The copied equipment vanishes once you leave the Astral.
That's all pure house rules.

Nothing in the rules gives any indication that copies consumed consume the real items. It's the houserule I use but it is pure houserule.

The second sentence is flat out wrong.

To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

[Yorae]

No, when you materialize a body it gets a free copy of all your equipment and clothing.

Ah.. well that makes sense, I guess....

What's to stop you from then going back to your original bodies and saying "hey, free stuff!". Or do you just snap back to your original body when you get back to that plane?

Sounds like it would be awesome in combination with Genesis.

[Flickerdart]

What's to stop you from then going back to your original bodies and saying "hey, free stuff!". Or do you just snap back to your original body when you get back to that plane?

No, Astral Projection doesn't stop you from going right back to the Prime Material and adventuring there. The gear basically is free stuff, until the spell ends and it vanishes.

[Emperor Tippy]

The gear basically is free stuff, until the spell ends and it vanishes.

That would be a houserule. Technically the gear never vanishes.

[Aharon]

Manual of the Planes, page 49:
Items: Worn, held and carried items possessed by the original form are not harmed if their astral forms are damaged or destroyed on the Astral Plane. When the traveler leaves the Astral Plane, those items fade into oblivion, even if the traveler intended to leave the items on the Astral Plane. If someone removes an item from an original form while its owner is travelling astrally, the astral copy of the item disappears as well. If the traveler's astral form employs magic items with a limited number of uses (such as potions, scrolls and wands), the uses are expended on the real items as well as on the astral copies.

From the bolded part, it follows that you arrive at your destination naked, and can't copy stuff by astrally projecting.

[Piggy Knowles]

That would be a houserule. Technically the gear never vanishes.

That's a pretty dubious reading. It gives various effects of the spell (including copying your body and equipment), and then says that the spell lasts until you end it, or it is dispelled, or what not. There is nothing to imply that when the spell ends your gear sticks around - you might as well say that the spell ending doesn't technically mean the copied version of you vanishes, either.

Astral Projection is still one of the most broken spells around, still lets you imitate a lich's phylactery and go around almost unkillable, still lets you abuse the living heck out of consumable items. But I don't really see how one could argue that the copies of your gear don't stop existing when the spell ends.


The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane... forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

...The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

[Emperor Tippy]

Manual of the Planes, page 49:
Items: Worn, held and carried items possessed by the original form are not harmed if their astral forms are damaged or destroyed on the Astral Plane. When the traveler leaves the Astral Plane, those items fade into oblivion, even if the traveler intended to leave the items on the Astral Plane. If someone removes an item from an original form while its owner is travelling astrally, the astral copy of the item disappears as well. If the traveler's astral form employs magic items with a limited number of uses (such as potions, scrolls and wands), the uses are expended on the real items as well as on the astral copies.

From the bolded part, it follows that you arrive at your destination naked, and can't copy stuff by astrally projecting.

That would be the older source (being a 3.0 book), it's overridden by the 3.5 PHB.


That's a pretty dubious reading. It gives various effects of the spell (including copying your body and equipment), and then says that the spell lasts until you end it, or it is dispelled, or what not. There is nothing to imply that when the spell ends your gear sticks around - you might as well say that the spell ending doesn't technically mean the copied version of you vanishes, either.

Astral Projection is still one of the most broken spells around, still lets you imitate a lich's phylactery and go around almost unkillable, still lets you abuse the living heck out of consumable items. But I don't really see how one could argue that the copies of your gear don't stop existing when the spell ends.
Because it never says that it creates temporary copies. It simply copies your gear, it never says that those copies only last for the duration of the spell; just that they are made.

It's mildly dubious but mostly because the rules are silent on what happens with copied gear; and it's utterly abuseable whichever way you rule. If the items are only temporary and disappear when you end the spell that you can run some truly outrageous cons, if they are permanent then it's free magic items (but Astral Projection is that anyways thanks to having a Gate scroll on your when you cast it).

[Aharon]

@Tippy
But AP wasn't changed from 3.0 to 3.5, so there's no reason to assume the 3.0 clarifications in MotP are overridden, seeing how extended rules are absent in 3.5 material.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Tippy
But AP wasn't changed from 3.0 to 3.5, so there's no reason to assume the 3.0 clarifications in MotP are overridden, seeing how extended rules are absent in 3.5 material.
Yes AP was changed in 3.5. The PHB text is the newest source, it's also the primary source and thus it is the RAW legal source.

It's fine to houserule to the MotP rules but that's what it is, a houserule. RAW is perfectly clear.

Newest source trumps older sources, core trumps everything that doesn't specifically call out overriding core, primary sources trump secondary sources unless the secondary source specifically calls out that it overrides the primary source.

[Malachei]

Yes AP was changed in 3.5. The PHB text is the newest source, it's also the primary source and thus it is the RAW legal source.

It's fine to houserule to the MotP rules but that's what it is, a houserule. RAW is perfectly clear.

Newest source trumps older sources, core trumps everything that doesn't specifically call out overriding core, primary sources trump secondary sources unless the secondary source specifically calls out that it overrides the primary source.

This is simply wrong and confusing people.

Astral Projection did not address the content of the Manual of the Planes section in either version, and Astral Projection's 3.0 and 3.5 versions are almost identical in text.


@Tippy
But AP wasn't changed from 3.0 to 3.5, so there's no reason to assume the 3.0 clarifications in MotP are overridden, seeing how extended rules are absent in 3.5 material.

In fact, WOTC's "update booklet" covers Manual of the Planes, claiming to provide us with "a summary of the changes to the core rulebooks and the information you need to bring the Monster Manual II, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, and the Manual of the Planes fully up to v.3.5 of the game." (Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a))

"Fully" is a joke, of course, but this makes it official 3.5 material.

[Yorae]

About the spell itself, is it correct that, all the while you are traipsing about in celestia or gehenna or wherever, there's still a silver cord just floating around in the aether connected to you? And it can still be cut? Which kills you d.e.a.d. dead, both where you are, and where you came from? Isn't that kind of a "HEY COME KILL ME!" sign to whatever jerks happen to be around the Astral Plane?

Or is it just really impossible to cut them?

[Malachei]

About the spell itself, is it correct that, all the while you are traipsing about in celestia or gehenna or wherever, there's still a silver cord just floating around in the aether connected to you? And it can still be cut? Which kills you d.e.a.d. dead, both where you are, and where you came from? Isn't that kind of a "HEY COME KILL ME!" sign to whatever jerks happen to be around the Astral Plane?

Or is it just really impossible to cut them?

Only a few things can sever the cord (psychic wind, astral dreadnought, githyanki sword), and "monsters, items and circumstances" cannot sever it unless explicitly noted (see the MoP).

[Eldan]

I thought psychic wind was actually pretty common, if I remember my Astral books correctly.

[Malachei]

I thought psychic wind was actually pretty common, if I remember my Astral books correctly.

Wind is common, but storms are rare, and even those will leave the cord undamaged 80% of the time.

[Emperor Tippy]

In fact, WOTC's "update booklet" covers Manual of the Planes, claiming to provide us with "a summary of the changes to the core rulebooks and the information you need to bring the Monster Manual II, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, and the Manual of the Planes fully up to v.3.5 of the game." (Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a))

"Fully" is a joke, of course, but this makes it official 3.5 material.

Oh, MotP is fully 3.5; that doesn't change the fact that in any dispute between it and the 3.5 core books, the core books take precedence.

[Malachei]

Oh, MotP is fully 3.5; that doesn't change the fact that in any dispute between it and the 3.5 core books, the core books take precedence.

There is no dispute between the core books and Manual of the Planes. Manual of the Planes provides additional information, that exceeds (not corrects) the core books (like many other books do). The spell description does not address the question of what happens to the equipment, Manual of the Planes does.

Is RAW is now only the core books?

[Emperor Tippy]

There is no dispute between the core books and Manual of the Planes. Manual of the Planes provides additional information, that exceeds (not corrects) the core books (like many other books do). The spell description does not address the question of what happens to the equipment, Manual of the Planes does.

Is RAW is now only the core books?

No, MotP flat out contradicts the core books.

Astral Projection says that it provides a complete copy of all equipment when you exit the Astral Plane and gain a body on another plane. MotP says that you are left completely naked when you exit the Astral Plane and gain a body on another plane. They directly contradict one another, in which case the original source, the newer source, and the core source override (the PHB would be all 3).

MotP is flat out wrong.

[Malachei]

No, MotP flat out contradicts the core books.

Astral Projection says that it provides a complete copy of all equipment when you exit the Astral Plane and gain a body on another plane. MotP says that you are left completely naked when you exit the Astral Plane and gain a body on another plane. They directly contradict one another, in which case the original source, the newer source, and the core source override (the PHB would be all 3).

MotP is flat out wrong.

No, because:

The text of 3.5 and 3.0 Astral Projection is almost identical except for a few words.
MotP was published after the 3.0 PHB. Thus, following your logic, it would supersede the 3.0 PHB text.
MotP was updated to 3.5 after the 3.5 PHB came out. Thus, following your logic, it would supersede the 3.5 PHB text.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, because:

The text of 3.5 and 3.0 Astral Projection is almost identical except for a few words.
Entirely irrelevant.

MotP was published after the 3.0 PHB. Thus, following your logic, it would supersede the 3.0 PHB text.
Fully true, if the 3.0 PHB wasn't a core book; and if the game wasn't on 3.5.

MotP was updated to 3.5 after the 3.5 PHB came out. Thus, following your logic, it would supersede the 3.5 PHB text.

Irrelevant. MotP was published first, making it the older source. It isn't the primary source. And it isn't a core book. It does not supersede.

For rules in one book to overwrite or alter the rules from another book it needs to specifically call out that it does so. If it doesn't do so then the primary book takes precedence.

If the book in question is a Core book then it always overrides any other source bar errata.

If a book is newer and publishes a different version of the same thing then that book becomes the primary source for that thing.

MotP does not override the PHB.

[Aharon]

Actually, there is a reading without any incompabilities:
MotP states that the equipment fades into oblivion when you leave the Astral, not that it is never there.

1. You're on the Astral.
2. You leave the Astral and form a new body, with equipment.
3. The equipment fades into oblivion.

:smallbiggrin:

[Malachei]

Irrelevant. MotP was published first, making it the older source. It isn't the primary source. And it isn't a core book. It does not supersede.



Absolutely not irrelevant, because the update booklet makes MotP official 3.5 material, and therefore MotP is not overwritten by 3.5 PHB, because for 3.5 it was updated after it.

[SanguisAevum]

Let us assume for the purposes off this post, that the only book we are referring to is the 3.5 PHB.

Under that assumption... could you tell me if i have the basic function of this particular spell correct....

1 - Find a safe place for your body to rest.
2 - Cast Astral projection.
3 - You are now on the astral plan with a copy of you body and equipment.
4 - Plane shift back to the material (or otherwise return to the material via another means)
5 - You are now an astrally projected copy of yourself on your original plane, whilst your real body and gear is safely stowed away somewhere.
6 - If you are "killed" you simply return to your safely stowed away body. (this also happens if your "dispelled")

Is this essentially correct?

Other questions...

Would the act of returning to the material actually end the spell and send you back to your body? If so... this could be avoided by shifting to a different plane (perhaps your own private demi plane via genesis) before projecting yourself back to the material.

Do abilities and spells used / cast while astrally projecting count as "used" when you return to your original body?

[Malachei]

The most obvious problem of using only PHB is unlimited wealth.

You can simply sell all your stuff the number of times per day you can cast Astral Projection.

Also great for in-party item transfer: Have two wizards in the party both wanting that single Ring of Wizardry you found? No problem, just cast AP and duplicate all equipment.

And as wizards tend to do things thoroughly, the market prices for magic items just collapsed.

[Flickerdart]

Let us assume for the purposes off this post, that the only book we are referring to is the 3.5 PHB.

Under that assumption... could you tell me if i have the basic function of this particular spell correct....

1 - Find a safe place for your body to rest.
2 - Cast Astral projection.
3 - You are now on the astral plan with a copy of you body and equipment.
4 - Plane shift back to the material (or otherwise return to the material via another means)
5 - You are now an astrally projected copy of yourself on your original plane, whilst your real body and gear is safely stowed away somewhere.
6 - If you are "killed" you simply return to your safely stowed away body. (this also happens if your "dispelled")

Is this essentially correct?
Yes.



Other questions...

Would the act of returning to the material actually end the spell and send you back to your body? If so... this could be avoided by shifting to a different plane (perhaps your own private demi plane via genesis) before projecting yourself back to the material.
The spell only makes provisions for what happens when your body is on the Material Plane. RAW, it does nothing if you're not on the Material Plane when casting it.



Do abilities and spells used / cast while astrally projecting count as "used" when you return to your original body?
It would make sense that they would, since they'd be part of your mind which isn't copied.