The Fighter Without Bonus Feats[3.X]

[Drelua]

The main complaint I've heard about Fighters is that they have no class features, and I've heard that they can make it up to Tier 4 with Dungeoncrasher from Dungeonscape. This made me think; what if you replaced all of their bonus feats with ACFs? I've seen some pretty cool ACFs that replace feats, so I thought this might help. Obviously this won't bring Fighters to the level of a full caster, but if it gets at least as good as a Barbarian, I'll call this a success. Here's what I have so far, with some ACFs that look useless to me included just in case I'm wrong about them:

Level 1: Armoured Savant
Thug. The armour proficiency hurts, but the skills might just make up for it.
Dwarven Fighter: I'd rather be human, so this doesn't help much, but weapon focus with all axes isn't bad.
Level 2: Dungeoncrasher. No explanation required. :smallwink: You could also take more Dwarf Fighter for weapon focus (axes)... I guess...
Level 4: Eldritch Grace
Planar Fighter. +2 damage against all outsiders, elementals and extraplanar creatures is pretty good. I guess it's about even with weapon specialization.
Level 6: Dungeoncrasher again.
Level 8: Bonded Armor
Planar Fighter. Get's past alignment based DR 1/day for (fighter level) rounds.
Level 10: 25% Fortification
Aligned Strike. Like Planar Fighter, but unlimited uses. The downside is that it only applies to alignment subtypes opposite yours, which is where Planar Fighter comes in.
Level 12: Resolute.
Planar Fighter again. Standard action Dimensional Anchor, unlimited uses, also applies to anyone you're Grappling. CL = Fighter Level. Not bad.
Counterattack. Not very useful, can't be used with what I've got for 16. Pass.
Level 14: 50% Fortification
Resolute. An immediate action to trade half BAB for an equal Will bonus.
Level 16: Overpowering Attack: Other than DC, this one's my favourite. Full round attack, double damage. Also applies to all attacks before your next turn. Not great on it's own, but when combined with Robilar's Gambit, that's some pretty huge damage potential.
Level 18: 100% Fortification
Armour of God, I guess. Switching your base Will to your AC as an immediate action could be helpful sometimes.
Level 20: I'm out of ideas. Armour of God.

Did I miss anything good? I hope so, for level 20's sake. I also left out Hit-and-Run because it doesn't replace a bonus feat. Besides, I don't think that can stack with Thug since they both replace Armour proficiency. Oh, and we'll throw Zhent in there because, well, why not?

So overall, how does this stack up to Barbarian? Would it be better to leave a few feats, or just to take a couple dips after 16?

TL;DR Fighter with ACFs replacing all bonus feats. Thoughts?

Edit: Thank you, Waddacku. That looks much better. I'll have to get my hands on Dragon 355.

[ExtravagantEvil]

I don't think this earnestly rises above or at Barbarian level in terms of power, as it stands now. The planar fighter, the portion that chews away most of your mid-level strength, is not versatile enough to be even considerably above the barbarian largely due to the bulk of the ACF's seeming to be that of Planar origin.

This assessment disregards the all around good ACF's, such as Dungeon Crasher, Zhentarim fighter, Overpowering Attack, etc.

Personally, I'd have left all the levels where Planar Fighter is involved and dump it to feats. Resolute and Armor of God play nicely together, and helps compensate for a poor save, so not shabby.

Just dump the planar levels so the fighter can have a bit more choice in style and specialization that Melee types really need.

On a personal optimization level, I probably wouldn't use this because I Love the Bonus feats (:smallredface:) and nearly always toss in 2 fighter levels for the early bonus feats because it's a very smooth dip, IMO.

Not a bad idea though, a little refining and it could turn out to be a pretty good idea :smallsmile::smallsmile:

[Drelua]

Good point, the Planar Fighter is pretty campaign dependent. It's probably better to leave it for the right kind of camapign. Does anyone have any better ideas for ACFs? I'm perfectly fine with using stuff from Dragon Magazine or third party books if they're any good.

[Chronos]

If ACFs that replace feats are enough to make a fighter worthwhile, then why not just create feats that do those things? That's how the Fighter was supposed to work: They get improved by adding new feats.

[Drelua]

If ACFs that replace feats are enough to make a fighter worthwhile, then why not just create feats that do those things? That's how the Fighter was supposed to work: They get improved by adding new feats.

Actually, I kinda do that. In my group Dungeoncrasher is two Fighter only feats, but that's a houserule that many groups might not be okay with. I'm just wondering if you can make a viable Fighter without any bonus feats by RAW, as a thought exercise as much as anything.

[Ravens_cry]

I think the Thug Sneak Attack Fighter would work in a mostly humanoid adventure, like a city campaign, as a basic swashbuckler kind of character.

[Lonely Tylenol]

What about Counter Attack and Elusive Attack (PHBII), or the Zhentarim Fighter, or the Zhentarim Fighter variant? If you stack Thug, Zhentarim Fighter, Dungeoncrasher, Overwhelming/Counter/Elusive Attack, Armor of God, and Resolute, you actually end up with a pretty modular set of basic attack options.

[Drelua]

I think the Thug Sneak Attack Fighter would work in a mostly humanoid adventure, like a city campaign, as a basic swashbuckler kind of character.

Oh... right, that. I completely forgot about that. Well, what would be better for a moretypical two-handed Fighter, Thug with Sneak Attack or my pile of ACFs? Dungeoncrasher is pretty fun, and I really like Overpowering Attack + Robilar's Gambit for high levels. I guess most of the other stuff isn't great.

I guess overall it gives good damage potential, which the fighter already sort of has, better Will, and a bit of social utility with Thug and Zhent. Is that worth it? They are a bit more versatile, but that's probably still low Tier 4, but then I'm pretty bad with balancing things.

And Lonely Tylenol, I just figured that Counter Attack was inferior to Robilar's Gambit even before Overpowering Attack, and Elusive Attack was too small a bonus to be worth it. Besides, Fighters don't really need more stuff to do with a full-round action, right? Oh, and I mentioned Zhent in the OP, that certainly does seem to grant some versatility.

[Waddacku]

Dragon #355 has a Class Acts called Eldritch Warriors with a bunch of fighter bonus feat replacing ACFs.

Armored Savant replaces your 1st level feat with your armor's weight not counting for encumbrance, armor slowing you as one step lighter, +1 max Dex bonus and halved ASF. (Su)

Eldritch Grace exchanges your 4th level feat for evasion against spells and magical effects as long as you're lightly or less encumbered. (Su)

At 8th, instead of a feat you can get Bonded Armor (Su). By wearing a suit of armor every day for a month and then going through a ritual, you can bond it to you which lets you don and remove it as a full-round action. You also get a small insight bonus to AC.

Fortification (Su) replaces your 10th, 14th, and 18th level feats with, well, fortification. 25%, 75%, and 100%, respectively.

Sadly overlapping with Fortification, Eldritch Juggernaut (Su) also takes your 18th level feat for 11+HD spell resistance while wearing medium or heavy armor.

And then finally we have Warrior of Air/Earth/Fire/Water. They all replace your 2nd, 6th, 12th, and 20th level feats with a series of benefits.
At 2nd you get an energy resistance 5 that increases at 12th (to 10) and 20th (to 20).
At 6th you get a 3/day SLA at CL your fighter level (except for Earth, which is half fighter level), and +1d6 energy damage (same type as the resistance) on critical hits. +2d6 at 12th and +3d6 at 20th.
At 12th you get another SLA at CL your fighter level. Either 1/day or 3/day.
At 20th your 12th level SLA uses increases to 3/day or at will, respectively.

Air: Electricity, Feather Fall at 6th, Freedom of Movement 1/day at 12th, FoM 3/day at 20th.
Earth: Acid, Magic Stone at 6th (half level CL for some reason), Stone Shape 3/day at 12th, Stone Shape at will at 20th.
Fire: Fire (durr), Burning Hands at 6th, Fire Shield (fire only) 1/day at 12th, Fire Shield 3/day at 20th.
Water: Cold, Obscuring Mist at 6th, Water Breathing 3/day at 12th, Water Breathing at will at 20th.

[Drelua]

Wow, that is some great stuff, thanks. I guess we can ditch Thug for Armoured Savant, drop Planar Fighter altogether for Eldritch Grace and Bonded Armour, and drop Aligned Strike and bump resolute back to 12 and Armour of God up to 20 for Fortification. I think that fills in every level and gives some great stuff. I'll edit it into the OP.

It's too bad Warrior of X overlaps with Dungeoncrasher; that's some great stuff, but I just love that bull rushing damage.

[Waddacku]

If you're not going for heavy armor (or medium I guess, but really?), thug is still good. More skill points and more skills is great.

[Morph Bark]

If you start out as a dragonblooded race, you can take Draconic Husk (PHBII) to replace all your armor proficiencies (and never gain them again) to gain the ability to grow dragonscales all over your body as an armor that grants energy resistance (5 at level 5, 10 at 10, 15 at 15, 20 at 20). The armor bonus starts at +6 and increases as you level and it counts as medium armor, but cannot be enchanted.

[Drelua]

That's true, but Armoured Savant goes great with Mithral Full Plate. You can end up with a base dexterity of 12 to 14 and gloves of DEX +4 to 6 for a Max DEX of 4. Maybe go with a Spiked Chain and some tripping and reach with Robilar's, although that can be feat intensive which kinda goes against the point of this whole exercise. Bluff and Sleight of Hand would be good though, I really don't know. Moving like you're wearing light armour when you're wearing heavy would be pretty sweet. Take that, Pathfinder Fighter! :smalltongue:

Edit @Morph Bark: The Dragonscale Husk is a good idea, although I don't think there's a way to get past that speed reduction, not that I can say for sure without a copy of Dragon 355 to look at Armoured Savant. You know, that is an interesting way to bring this exercise up a level. Now, what can we trade away weapon proficiencies for... :smallbiggrin:

[Waddacku]

Armored Savant and Dragonscale Husk could be an interesting combination. 6+1/3 level armor bonus with no speed reduction, max Dex of +3 and ACP -4.

[Drelua]

Armored Savant and Dragonscale Husk could be an interesting combination. 6+1/3 level armor bonus with no speed reduction, max Dex of +3 and ACP -4.

Right, it just plain counts as armour. I hadn't actually read that in a while, that is good if you've got the dragonblood subtype. That works out great, thanks!

[Waddacku]

For a low level game, Armored Savant, Dragonscale Husk, Dungeoncrasher, and Eldritch Grace would be fun. At higher levels Dragonscale Husk gets significantly worse since you can't further enhance it. The armor bonus doesn't end up that great, and while resistances are nice there's a lot of other things that would be nice, too.

[Sr.medusa]

No Zhentarim? It's free!

[Drelua]

For a low level game, Armored Savant, Dragonscale Husk, Dungeoncrasher, and Eldritch Grace would be fun. At higher levels Dragonscale Husk gets significantly worse since you can't further enhance it. The armor bonus doesn't end up that great, and while resistances are nice there's a lot of other things that would be nice, too.

The bonus takes a while to get as all the way up since you can afford +5 armour way before level 18, but +12 is only 1 point behind Full-plate. I guess it's good for low and very high levels, but for mid levels actual armour would probably be better.


No Zhentarim? It's free!

I really need to put that somewhere more visible. I put Zhent in the OP, but didn't give it much attention since I'm focusing more on replacing class bonus feats.

Oh, and one thing about Dragonscale Husk:

Your scaled hide grants you a bonus to your Armor Class...
This bonus doesn't stack with any feat, racial trait, or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class.

By RAW, is this an untyped bonus? It technically doesn't say anything about being an armour bonus. Having the base go up to +12 with Bracers of Armour +8 would be pretty sweet, well worth the stacking issues, but it looks like they probably meant for it to be an armour bonus. If this is the RAW, how would you rule it?

[Person_Man]

Fighters also get Tower Shield proficiency at first level, which you can trade out for Exotic Shield Proficiency (Races of Stone). Check the Shield Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630) if you want to read them over, a few useful.

[Empedocles]

Could you please source where all of these ACFs are from :smallredface:

[Empedocles]

Could you please source all of these ACFs? :smallredface:

[Empedocles]

Could you please source all of these ACFs? :smallredface:

[Empedocles]

Could you please source all of these ACFs? :smallredface:

[Empedocles]

Could you please source all of these ACFs? :smallredface: