What's Better: Warmage or Sorceror?

[LordDrakulzen]

Tricked you!:smallwink:

I understand enough of the Tier system to know that the Warmage is a T4 and the Sorceror is T1-2.

My question is: For a Favored Soul/ WM or S/ Mystic Theurge would I be better off playing the Warmage or Sorceror? My reasoning for these two are they both use Charisma as the base for spells per day, and would only need to up Wisdom to learn spells for Favored Soul.

I plan on taking the Educated Feat from Eberron (makes all knowledge skills class skills) and Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane or Divine for both arcane and divine to maximize my Caster levels.

I really like the firepower of the Warmage as well as the armored casting, but the sorcerors expanded spell list is tempting.

Opinions sought!

[Jack_Simth]

Opinions sought!Depends on what you want to do with it. In either case, it's a rather painful combination. The 'traditional' Mystic Theurge entry has you taking four levels of Sorcerer or Warmage, then four levels of Favored Soul, before you start going into MT - leaving you two full spell levels behind a pure Sorcerer or a pure Favored Soul, and 2.5 behind the Cleric or Wizard. Mechanically speaking, this is going to be a very low optimization build, unless you're using early entry tricks. Depending on the DM and the other players, you will very likely have problems feeling like you are contributing.

So which is better depends on what you want out of it. If you want blasting to be your main thing, then Warmage is mostly better. If you want game power, then Sorcerer is mostly better. If you want to run around in armor, then it's warmage again...

[eggs]

Sorcerer's the heaviest hitter in the game, with room to focus in basically any direction.
Warmage is a crappy blaster.

The only way Warmage could be worthwhile is if your group takes a deliberately anal reading of the Mystic Theurge's spell progression.

[LordDrakulzen]

The only way Warmage could be worthwhile is if your group takes a deliberately anal reading of the Mystic Theurge's spell progression.

How so?

What is there to be "deliberately anal" about? You gain one level of spellcasting for both the divine and arcane class you had before, with none of the class options (wizard bonus feats comes to mind).

My plan on the character is to be a blaster one round and able to switch to the healer the next. Ultimate wish would be to have a house rule where I can finish out my 20 levels like 4 WM/4 FS/12 MT... I fail to see why I can't expand the prestige class prior to epic, it would give me 8th level spells for both classes and one level into epic would have both Miracle and Meteor swarm.

By my figuring I'll have approx 92 spells per day plus bonus for a high charisma (which'll be maxed of course) to cast.

[eggs]

How so?

What is there to be "deliberately anal" about?
MT never explicitly says it advances spells known, which stymies the Sorc, but not Warmage. (Not that anyone would ever play it without that inference.)

With two slow-advancing base classes, this is one of the cases where I'd probably whip out an early entry trick without feeling slimy.

[Snowbluff]

Uhh... yikes. Really, if you want to Theurge with Spontaneous Casters, you might want to check out some early entry tricks.

[Keld Denar]

Warmage vs Sorcerer: A "Discussion" (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869150/Warmages_Blow_Goats_For_Pocket_Change;_OR,_Why_You _Should_Play_A_Sorcerer_Instead)

[Answerer]

If we define "better" as "more powerful," and we consider only single-classed cases, then the Sorcerer is better than the Warmage, at all things, at all levels. That includes blasting, since the Warmage misses out on some great blasting spells, and the Sorcerer eventually gets Arcane Fusion. If we include PrCs, and rule the Rainbow Servant as full-casting, then Warmage 10/Rainbow Servant 10 is probably more powerful than the Sorcerer 10/almost-anything 10.

If we define "better" as "more balanced," then probably the Warmage but both have issues.


Neither is even slightly good for Mystic Theurge.

[LordDrakulzen]

New to the tricks, so what are some Early entry ones for Theurge?

I want the spontaneous casters since they both use Charisma, allowing me to save GP for other items.

[Alienist]

I think a large part of it depends on the flavour you are trying to achieve.

The other thing to note is that you get none of the 'goodies' from favoured soul, not even energy resistance, the only thing you get is weapon focus with your deities favoured weapon.

I'd be more worried about missing out on the divine side than the arcane side.


New to the tricks, so what are some Early entry ones for Theurge?

Anyway, here's a way to do it:
do the apprentice trick at level 1 with your arcane class
take three levels of cleric (including picking up some domains that'll give you something better than weapon focus)
then at level 5+ mystic theurge

So you're in a whopping 4 levels earlier than 4 FS/4 S

With that plan you're only losing 1 level of cleric casting, and in return getting a big chunk of arcane casting.


I want the spontaneous casters since they both use Charisma, allowing me to save GP for other items.

I think you're grossly overestimating the importance of maxing out both classes primary stat.

If - just to pick a random example - you use your divine side for buffing and healing, then your caster stat on that side doesn't matter, because DC is irrelevant. And it's not like you need bonus spells anyway.... you're a theurge, and you will quickly reach the point where you cannot cast all your spell slots.

[eggs]

Early entry tricks mean hitting level 2 spells with 3 Hit Dice (for skill requirements; there are ways to accelerate those ranks, but they're much more abusive than spell acceleration).

To count as having access to level 2 spells on both sides of the build when you only have level 1s, the easy ways are:
Sanctum Spell - Complete Arcane - Spells count as 1 level higher when you're in your sanctum.
Earth Spell - Races of Stone - Heightened Spells count as 1 level higher and increase CL by their level increase. High feat cost, but more general applicability than most of these.
Improved Sigil (Krau) - Races of Destiny - Two spells count as 1 level higher. Requires a race with glowy words floating around their heads.
Versatile Spellcaster - Races of the Dragon - Blow 2 spell slots to cast a spell known of 1 level higher. Combine with Heighten spell for minimum chicanery.
Eldritch Corruption - Heroes of Horror - Deal Con damage to an ally to Heighten a spell by 2 levels 3/day. Requires depravity, which probably means grabbing the Necropolitan Template for easy access to the Undead type.

With any of those, you can do something like Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge X, and only end up 1 Sorcerer level behind, in exchange for a bunch of Favored Soul spells known.

[Snowbluff]

New to the tricks, so what are some Early entry ones for Theurge?

I want the spontaneous casters since they both use Charisma, allowing me to save GP for other items.

Get Heighten Spell, the grab Sanctum Spell, the best option for early entry with 2 non-similar non-T3/4 casters. This lets you cast Second Level Spells for each Class. MT fails to have any Skill prereqs that can't be earned at level 3. Take the skills, then take MT at level 4 after taking 2 levels in on class, then one in the other.

EDIT: Dammit, double Swordsaged.

[LordDrakulzen]

Anyway, here's a way to do it:
do the apprentice trick at level 1 with your arcane class
take three levels of cleric (including picking up some domains that'll give you something better than weapon focus)


Is the "apprentice trick" the 1st level character option that gives you a single 2nd level spell usable 1 per day from Complete Arcane? wanna say page 81... right next to the other option that grants double the spells per level known for wizarding levels? (AFB at moment, hope my recall abilities are on tonight):smalltongue:

[Cor1]

Huh, Warmage and not Rainbow Servant? With an early entry trick to fit a few levels of Incantatrix or something? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0) I thought they all did that now.

Yeah, it's a little MAD (you may need 19 Wis to cast divine spells), but it's for the Good Causes TM of spontaneously casting the Warmage list for damage and, later, make your whole party into a team of CoDzillas, while keeping the ability to murderize any enemy caster before they blink.

I'd make one, with at least a dip into Rage Mage.

A sample build in that handbook is the Rainbow Weavermage. I love it. Simple to use, little bookkeeping, very legal.
Human Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 3, "the whole team IS ClericZilla".



Otherwise, for the Sorceror, I'd do a Mailman. Saint Half-Dragon (Radiant) Mailman Sorceror. Five LA to buy off, but : hell yeah, let's play Lord Saint Orb of Searing Flame.
Or Lord Yrag the Saint Half-Dragon Rainbow Weavermage : "Go win this battle, guys".

It would depend on the party. One is there to make the others win, while keeping some ability to do damage on select things (SR simply shuts down the Warmage past lvl 12, so Cleric spell access makes you still relevant at about that point), the other is the quintessential Blaster archetype done well.

[eggs]

Precocious Apprentice gets tricky because per RAW, it shuts down as soon as a character gets level 2 spells. That includes Cleric spells.

Unlike the Mystic Theurge RAW nitpickery, this one is something that's sometimes actually enforced.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, the moral is "Check with the DM before committing resources" not "No, you can't!"

[Snowbluff]

Precocious Apprentice gets tricky because per RAW, it shuts down as soon as a character gets level 2 spells. That includes Cleric spells.

Unlike the Mystic Theurge RAW nitpickery, this one is something that's sometimes actually enforced.

Uh... except when you get second level spells, you don't need it anymore. You can cast second level spells. >.>

[Cor1]

The build I referenced in my previous post uses Versatile Spellcaster, not Precocious Apprentice.

[eggs]

The build I referenced in my previous post uses Versatile Spellcaster, not Precocious Apprentice.Right. I was commenting on the posts before yours.

Uh... except when you get second level spells, you don't need it anymore. You can cast second level spells. >.>
With the trick mentioned a few posts above, that could leave the character with level 2 divine spells/level 1 arcane in a group with the strict reading.

[LordDrakulzen]

Uh... except when you get second level spells, you don't need it anymore. You can cast second level spells. >.>

I can't take MT until I can cast both 2nd level arcane and divine spells for at least one level, then I can take theurge. So if I take Precocious Apprentice it stops giving me my arcane spells once I get my Divine 2nd level spells, if I'm reading the post from eggs correctly.

What is this rainbow servant/weavermage? where is it?

[Snowbluff]

With the trick mentioned a few posts above, that could leave the character with level 2 divine spells/level 1 arcane in a group with the strict reading.

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work with Divine Casters anyway. :smallconfused: Why was this brought up in this thread?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Precocious Apprentice is a waste of a feat, if you missed eggs' post above, I've quoted it for you:


Early entry tricks mean hitting level 2 spells with 3 Hit Dice (for skill requirements; there are ways to accelerate those ranks, but they're much more abusive than spell acceleration).

To count as having access to level 2 spells on both sides of the build when you only have level 1s, the easy ways are:
Sanctum Spell - Complete Arcane - Spells count as 1 level higher when you're in your sanctum.
Earth Spell - Races of Stone - Heightened Spells count as 1 level higher and increase CL by their level increase. High feat cost, but more general applicability than most of these.
Improved Sigil (Krau) - Races of Destiny - Two spells count as 1 level higher. Requires a race with glowy words floating around their heads.
Versatile Spellcaster - Races of the Dragon - Blow 2 spell slots to cast a spell known of 1 level higher. Combine with Heighten spell for minimum chicanery.
Eldritch Corruption - Heroes of Horror - Deal Con damage to an ally to Heighten a spell by 2 levels 3/day. Requires depravity, which probably means grabbing the Necropolitan Template for easy access to the Undead type.

With any of those, you can do something like Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge X, and only end up 1 Sorcerer level behind, in exchange for a bunch of Favored Soul spells known.


I'd personally recommend the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook into which you've already scribed several spells, thus you should be able to add more spells to it just like a Wizard does (subject to DM interpretation). You can then use Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) to spend spell slots from either class two at a time to cast any spell you've successfully copied into your spellbook. You would probably need to have the book open to the proper spell when doing so, so it would usually be limited to noncombat situations, but that adds tons of versatility to any spontaneous caster build, especially one that's going to be behind in spell levels as it is.

[LordDrakulzen]

It took me waaaaayyyy to long to realize this:

MT does NOT say that you gain spells known for a sorceror?

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I guess I really need to re-think any and all characters that I want to make, as the rules seem to make no sense to me all of a sudden...

[Snowbluff]

I'd personally recommend the feat Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook into which you've already scribed several spells, thus you should be able to add more spells to it just like a Wizard does (subject to DM interpretation). You can then use Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) to spend spell slots from either class two at a time to cast any spell you've successfully copied into your spellbook. You would probably need to have the book open to the proper spell when doing so, so it would usually be limited to noncombat situations, but that adds tons of versatility to any spontaneous caster build, especially one that's going to be behind in spell levels as it is.

Oooh. This hasn't occurred to me. Nice trick, I'll have to use it sometime. :smallcool:

[Cor1]

What is this rainbow servant/weavermage? where is it?

Behold! The Rainbow Weavermage! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0)

I find that build beautiful. It's very, very simple PO. There's nothing to fix in that. It's still flexible, too, depending on the level of optimization you're willing to use.



No other class in DnD really centers on and benefits from helping your team the way that a war weaver does. You can carry, fundamentally, a disproportionate amount of the weight of the administrative concerns of combat. What do I mean? You are uniquely positioned to prepare as well as adapt, perhaps by carrying the right niche buff or maybe by being free at the right moment to press your advantage. War weaver is good no matter if you have a party of three or a party of eight. All you need to do is push your casting attribute a little higher, and you can always keep them covered like no other caster can. You're not "god," you are legion, the thousand eyed titan who laughs at the sky. Dare them to stop you.

[Anxe]

I have done a warmage/favored soul/mystic theurge before. It was a lot of fun! I got to blast stuff, buff the party, and heal the party afterwards. When they all ran out of spells I was only half out and ready to go for more fun. I definitely felt like I was contributing even in an all caster party.

I did have the advantage of starting at level 12, so I bypassed the painful stage before you start getting mystic theurge levels. Practiced Spellcaster was a big help in my build as well. I took it twice so that both classes were casting at their full potential.

The guys before me are certainly giving you good advice (That I don't fully understand), but just doing warmage/favored soul without the book-fu is a lot of fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

Practiced Spellcaster was a big help in my build as well. I took it twice so that both classes were casting at their full potential.


How exactly were you using Practiced Spellcaster? What it does is it lets you cast the spells you already could cast, at higher caster level. It doesn't give you more spell access -- and you are way, way, way, way behind on spell access...

@OP: You should read these two handbooks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224999

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225901

[eggs]

MT does NOT say that you gain spells known for a sorceror?

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
Nobody pays attention to that omission. Seriously.

It's stupid and even if it's not chalked up to a typo, Spells Known should be houseruled in regardless.

All that rule would do is punish a player for taking an already subpar entry to a weak class.

[Anxe]

How exactly were you using Practiced Spellcaster? What it does is it lets you cast the spells you already could cast, at higher caster level. It doesn't give you more spell access -- and you are way, way, way, way behind on spell access...

@OP: You should read these two handbooks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224999

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225901

Mystic theurge has more spell access than a full-caster because it has access to two class lists. You don't get the higher level ones, but that's made up for by getting two or even three times as many low level ones. Mystic theurge is about having more endurance than your peers. Or at least it was to me.

Practiced Spellcaster helps the spells stay at maximum efficacy and it helps with SR.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh. The thing is, with regards to spell access?

Only the higher level spells count.

Sorry. No amount of low level spells will make up for not having the spells that matter. The higher level spells are the ones that do big things. The ones that let you end a fight with a single spell. That let you really change the world in under six seconds. They are the ones that matter... and in D&D, high level spells are really the only things that matter.

[Spuddles]

The Warmage's spells known mechanics is pretty cool. A warmage1/dread necro 1/beguiler18 with versatile spellcaster can spontaneously cast off all 3 lists.

Warmage1/dread necro1 with versatile spell caster and southern magician can go into mystic theurge. 2x spells, pretty good lists.

Likewise, a level 1 dip into wizard or the magical training feat to get spellbook mechanics, combined with with a high spellcraft check and versatile spellcaster lets you spontaneously cast wizard spells.

A sorcerer or beguiler or any other spontaneous caster can do that trick, too.


Uh. The thing is, with regards to spell access?

Only the higher level spells count.

Sorry. No amount of low level spells will make up for not having the spells that matter. The higher level spells are the ones that do big things. The ones that let you end a fight with a single spell. That let you really change the world in under six seconds. They are the ones that matter... and in D&D, high level spells are really the only things that matter.

Unless you're not high enough level to cast those spells yet.

[docnessuno]

The best (imho) early entry trick for spontaneous casters (and the less ambiguous by RAW) is "heighten spell" + "versatile spellcaster" (RotD). Allows to enter MT as early as level 4.

Also i would suggest wu-jen and sorcerer as a class combination (wu-jen being fully cha-based). Entering with something like Wu-jen 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Human paragon 1, you could progress further to WJ 1 / So 1 / HP 1 / MT 10 / HP 2 / any casting PRC 5.

[Gavinfoxx]

Unless you're not high enough level to cast those spells yet.

Which is why, if you want to play a caster, and you are worried about what is 'better', you expend a significant amount of effort in getting access to the useful high level spells as soon as possible.

[Jack_Simth]

New to the tricks, so what are some Early entry ones for Theurge?The simple one:

Illumian (Races of Destiny, I believe) with Improved Sigil: Krau: Heightens two spells of your choosing. With the skill you're after for all knowledge skills as class skills, means you can go into Mystic Theurge as either a Sorcerer-2/Favored Soul-1, or as a Favored Soul-1/Sorcerer-2 (pick one 1st level spell on each side for the free level of Heighten from Improved Sigil: Krau, and you can now cast second level Arcane spells and second level Divine spells).

That entry hurts a lot less than the traditional one. Getting MT house-ruled to run as high as you like would also be very handy.

[Khedrac]

and would only need to up Wisdom to learn spells for Favored Soul.Actually Favored Souls only use Wisdom for spell DCs. If you stick to buffing/healing spells Wisdom becomes a dump stat for Favored Souls.

As for Sorceror v Warmage I go with Sorceror - they can take a good selection of blasting spells and fill out with useful stuff. Yes on occasion you might meet something that needs an energy type you don't have, but that can make it more fun. If this happens all the time talk to your DM and remember that you can swap spells known.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

http://www.dumbtionary.com/word/sorceror.shtml

[Malachei]

Of the three set-list casters (beguiler, dread necromancer and warmage), the warmage is the weakest, and also most bland, I think.

I'd always go for the sorcerer. Are you the only party member to fill the arcane full caster role? If yes, MT will pose some problems.

[LordDrakulzen]

We're starting at 20th, so no growing pains. The party is myself, as a Lesser Aasimar MT, an Elan Ardent/Meditant, and some sort of half-dragon/giant/huge freaking thing, with a couple level of caster (I think they went for Dragon Disciple) that literally Huge.

I've actually used a 6th level spell to best effect in the group, as we're fighting a lot of undead, Sunbeam is AWESOME! Especially mixed in with my Rod of Maximize, Greater :smallbiggrin:

And just to be a nerd about it... This is my first multipage thread!!!!!!
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Malachei]

If you're fighting a lot of undead, consider dread necromancer. Also a Cha-based caster. Probably too much overlap with your divine side, though.

[Tyndmyr]

Tricked you!:smallwink:

I understand enough of the Tier system to know that the Warmage is a T4 and the Sorceror is T1-2.

My question is: For a Favored Soul/ WM or S/ Mystic Theurge would I be better off playing the Warmage or Sorceror? My reasoning for these two are they both use Charisma as the base for spells per day, and would only need to up Wisdom to learn spells for Favored Soul.

I plan on taking the Educated Feat from Eberron (makes all knowledge skills class skills) and Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane or Divine for both arcane and divine to maximize my Caster levels.

I really like the firepower of the Warmage as well as the armored casting, but the sorcerors expanded spell list is tempting.

Opinions sought!

I prefer the warmage for theurgy. Why? Because the big benefit of sorc is the larger spell list. Theurgy typically means you already have a great spell selection overall, so that's of more marginal benefit, and the minor bonus abilities like Warmage Edge are a lot more fun.

[Answerer]

Warmage Edge ceases to matter by like... level 4. Even with early entry tricks, you can only be MT 1 at that point...

[Tyndmyr]

Warmage Edge ceases to matter by like... level 4. Even with early entry tricks, you can only be MT 1 at that point...

The Edge isn't huge, no...but it's a nifty little bonus, and it remains useful in some builds(for instance, FMM builds relying on split, twin, etc). The armor stuff is a nice minor bonus. The larger number of spells known is a little bonus. The couple extra hp is a nice little bonus.

None of these are huge factors, and obviously, they would compare poorly to the sorcs greater spell list in most matchups...but when you don't need the larger spell list due to theurgy...might as well go warmage.

[Spuddles]

Which is why, if you want to play a caster, and you are worried about what is 'better', you expend a significant amount of effort in getting access to the useful high level spells as soon :smallsigh:as possible.

Oh absolutely, but if the game isn't going past level 8, then lack of time stop or shapechange is entirely irrelevant. Warmage is actually a strong class at low levels if you pump int. With a little optimization, you can get triple int damage with whirling blade. Pretty fun stuff.

Warmage has a pretty low floor, but the optimization ceiling is high. If you're starting out at level 13 or higher, it can actually be one of the most powerful classes. 'Course, it's just cause of its casting mechanic. Beguiler makes a better chassis, imo.

And didn't mean to direct all this at you, Gavin

[Gavinfoxx]

OP: Perhaps you could tell us which particular spells you are most interested in?

[Answerer]

The Edge isn't huge, no...but it's a nifty little bonus, and it remains useful in some builds(for instance, FMM builds relying on split, twin, etc).
I was under the impression that Warmage Edge only applied once to such "volley" spells. If you can apply it repeatedly, that's... something, but not still not a lot.


The armor stuff is a nice minor bonus.
I'll grant you that.


The larger number of spells known is a little bonus. The couple extra hp is a nice little bonus.
I doubt either of these will matter; sheer number of spells known doesn't matter much when you don't get to choose them. It's pretty likely that while you'll have more spells than a Sorcerer would, the Sorcerer would have more spells that you would actually want. The HP difference is minuscule.


None of these are huge factors, and obviously, they would compare poorly to the sorcs greater spell list in most matchups...but when you don't need the larger spell list due to theurgy...might as well go warmage.
Just don't really agree. The one thing I will say is that theurging probably helps the Warmage more than it does the Sorcerer (or, hurts less), since the spells are really needed.


Warmage/Rainbow Servant is effectively a Warmage//Cleric and then some though, and yeah, War Weaver is amazing. That's a pretty cool build. Very powerful though, that's probably only practical if you're in a team of tier-1's... or your teammates don't mind overpowered support (which they may not; see TLN's guide to being Batman for tips on making everyone else in your team seem awesome [while secretly doing all the work]).

[LordDrakulzen]

My dream scenario would be being able to choose between Miracle and Wish essentially at will. I am happy to just have Miracle and Meteor swarm, I really like the greater number of spells that a Warmage has per level, since any magic not necessary for combat can be found through other NPCs.

We're running a 20th level campaign, and I am the only pure caster, the others are an Elan Ardent/Meditant, and a fugly dragon/giant/minotaur huge fugly thing that is not pleasant to be hit by.

The one spell that I wish I had (other than wish) that i don't from Warmage would be Time Stop

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you just play an Archivist with a Cloistered Cleric dip, the Southern Magician with the Magic domain, going into Dwoermerkeeper?

That way, you can get spells from:

Cleric
Cleric Domains
Cloistered Cleric
Paladin
Paladin Variants
Ranger
Mystic Ranger
Druid
Initiate Feats
Divine Bard
Adept
Cleric with Divine Magician
Shugenja
Healer
Runescarred Berserker
The Sanctified list
Nentyar Hunter
Emissary of Barachiel
Slayer of Domiel
Wizard and Sorcerers with Geomancer levels
Any Arcanist with Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician -- including Wizards, Sorcerers, Wu Jen, Trapsmiths, Tefflamar Shadowlords, Sand Shaper, Gnome Illusionists, etc.


So basically, you get all spells ever.

Also, I think Dwoemerkeeper can get you Miracle as an SLA or Su or something.

[LordDrakulzen]

Why don't you just play an Archivist with a Cloistered Cleric dip, the Southern Magician with the Magic domain, going into Dwoermerkeeper?

mainly because I have never played any of them, nor heard of a couple. :smallamused:

as far as the spell options that you've listed: what would be my caster levels and spells per day on them? I play what I know, and as it is I have to have 3 books open to have my spells at hand

[nedz]

A simply, less cheesy, way of reducing your level tax is to use Spontaneous Cleric instead of Favoured Soul. Its in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)
You get Domains and Turn Undead as well as level 2 divine casting at 3rd.
It does require Wis+Cha though.

Depending upon your desired OP level: YMMV.

[Gurgeh]

http://www.dumbtionary.com/word/sorceror.shtml
I always remember that it should be sorcerer because if it were sorceror then you'd have to call the female version a sorcerix instead of a sorceress.

[Hecuba]

I always remember that it should be sorcerer because if it were sorceror then you'd have to call the female version a sorcerix instead of a sorceress.

I totally want to play a sorcerix now.

[Cor1]

Sorcerix is what Sorceress/Incantatrix are named, no?

[nedz]

I thought Sorcerix came from Gaul ?

[Gavinfoxx]

mainly because I have never played any of them, nor heard of a couple. :smallamused:

as far as the spell options that you've listed: what would be my caster levels and spells per day on them? I play what I know, and as it is I have to have 3 books open to have my spells at hand

Here's the Archivist Handbook, and a link to the build in question:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.msg1943#msg1943

I generally prefer Destroy Undead to Rebuke Dragons (Races of the Dragon, I think), though.

Anyway: Archivist is in Heroes of Horror. Destroy Undead is in Return to Castle Ravenloft. Cloistered Cleric is in SRD or Unearthed Arcana. Sacred Exorcist is in Complete Divine. Dwoemerkeeper is in the Complete Divine Web Enhancement.

With Academic Priest feat from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins, your casting becomes Single Attribute Dependent. With Practiced Spellcaster, you cast as, by level 20, a level 19 Archivist with the caster level of a level 20 Archivist.

With a starting 18 int (or 20 with an appropriate race), with 5 points in int, that's a 23 int at level 20 before items. After items, that's at least a 27 int -- possibly a 28. Also, Pearls of Power help to increase your number of level 9 spells too. Level 19 casting with a 26 int gets you 4 level 9 spells per day, or 5 with 28 int.

Two pools of turn undead (turn undead and destroy undead) means that you can persist a large number of spells with your Nightstick and your Reliquary Holy Symbol, especially if you have a few Extra Turnings, which also apply to both.

Thus, you could get Wish from one of the methods I mentioned, and 4/day, you could cast your Wish or your Miracle as a Supernatural spell.