Scrying and nondetection SEMI-ANSWERABLE QUESTION

[Baphomet]

I'm very confused by the rules regarding nondetection, and how it applies. I've got a scenario in a game (truthfully it's more of a sort of play-by-post adventure game, but it's still based on 3.5 rules) where one character is an abomination, and thus affected by permanent nondetection. He is also able to shapeshift and blend into the normal population. Another character is a powerful wizard and is in charge of the kingdom that the first character is blending in to. Part of the population of her kingdom is currently involved in a rebellion against her. The abomination character was thrown in jail, then escaped and joined the rebellion. If it matters, the abomination changed forms a couple of times immediately after his escape, but changed back into the form the wizard knew him as while participating in the rebellion, and unless any of the below methods work she should still be unaware that he is a shapeshifter.

Now, how do the various scrying methods she might employ interact with this scenario if:
1) she sends an Arcane Eye to follow the path of his escape from the prison?
2) she casts scrying/greater scrying on the leader of the rebellion while the abomination is standing within 10 feet of him?
3) she casts clairvoyance on the area in front of the palace gates as the abomination is tearing them down?
4) she does either 2 or 3 while the abomination is away from the area, then the abomination enters the area while the spell is still active.

And then, if any of the above are actually able to detect him, does anything stop her from then continuing to employ that method to track him as he leaves the rebellion, assuming she or any of her spellcasting lackeys can continue to cast the appropriate spells indefinitely? Assume that the abomination has sufficient HD to make the caster level check from nondetection impossible for the wizard to pass.

[Baphomet]

I guess once more to the top of the page and then I'm just going to assume nobody knows the answer.

[Ashtagon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm

First question: what is the effective caster level for the nondetection on the abomination character (hereafter called Abe)? This is a key part of how nondetection works.

1) Wizo has to make a caster level check against Abe's nondetection. Failure means that Abe and his gear are invisible through that casting of the spell.

Note that the eye has a duration of minutes, so as long as Abe waited half an hour before shapeshifting, his secret should be safe. Also note that if Abe was running from prison (not an unreasonable assumption), he would leave the arcane eye sensor behind quite rapidly.

2) Assuming the primary target failed his Will save, Wizo has to make a caster level check against Abe's nondetection. Failure means that Abe and his gear are invisible through that casting of the spell.

3) Wizo has to make a caster level check against Abe's nondetection. Failure means that Abe and his gear are invisible through that casting of the spell.

4) Wizo has to make a caster level check against Abe's nondetection when Abe enters the area of the spell. Failure means that Abe and his gear are invisible through that casting of the spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Now, how do the various scrying methods she might employ interact with this scenario if:
1) she sends an Arcane Eye to follow the path of his escape from the prison?

Arcane Eye doesn't see the past, only the present. The Wizard would have needed to have this following the Abomination before the escape for it to be relevant. If that were the case, the Wizard would have noted the Nondetection at the time of casting if the check was failed (when the Wizard's regular eye can see the shifter, but the arcane eye couldn't).


2) she casts scrying/greater scrying on the leader of the rebellion while the abomination is standing within 10 feet of him?
This one is mostly unanswerable. The Wizard is casting a spell on someone they don't know anything about - phrased that way, it doesn't even meet "you have heard of the subject" - no name, just a position that's assumed to exist (it won't always!). Unless the wizard has a picture, garment, or part of the leader, this hits the "You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of." clause.

That said:
Wizard fails caster level check: A clause from the Scrying Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) comes into play: "Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked." - Wizard finds out that there's magical protections against scrying.
Wizard beats caster level check, target beats Will save: Scrying fails, nothing happens.
Wizard beats caster level check, target fails Will save: Scrying happens, Wizard sees himself standing next to the target of the scry... and probably gets a little annoyed.


3) she casts clairvoyance on the area in front of the palace gates as the abomination is tearing them down?
Clairvoyance is an effect, not a target. If the Wizard passes the caster level check, then the Wizard gets to see the abomination tearing down the gate. If the Wizard does not pass the caster level check, then the Wizard gets to see a gate torn down with no obvious 'why', as though something invisible were tearing it down.


4) she does either 2 or 3 while the abomination is away from the area, then the abomination enters the area while the spell is still active.
Then the Wizard makes the caster level check as normal to see the abomination (note that if you're standing next to someone who's being scried, you don't get the save, but you do get the effects of other protections). Making the caster level check in secret is recommended.

[Baphomet]

Jack Simth, in regards to number 2, the wizard had seen the rebellion leader already, so it's not unreasonable to assume she had already been scrying on him by the time the abomination arrived, as a matter of course entirely separate from her efforts to track the abomination. She has not, however, personally seen the abomination in any of his forms yet (her agents arrested him incidentally while arresting a large crowd).

The abomination has so many hit dice that the wizard cannot succeed the caster level check even if she rolls a 20. So, if she scries on the rebellion leader, or uses clairvoyance on the area where the rebellion is taking place, then is continuing to do so when the abomination walks up, she sees the rebellion leader talking to no one? Does she see, say, footprints? He was in Treant form during the rebellion, those things are bound to displace some earth when they take a step. Does he cast a shadow? Do the abomination's friends who hitched a ride in his branches appear to be flying?

Ashtagon, when the abomination escaped jail, he actually tore down a wall and leapt out of the dungeon of the wizard's flying castle (magically shrouded in a cloud, which had the side-effect of blocking the wardens from being able to see him after he dropped), glided (glid?) down and busted through a skylight in a library below, and immediately shapeshifted into a dragonborn. He then took time out of his day to stick around and seduce the librarian, then waited around longer to go back to her place after her shift was over (player's priorities might be kind of out of whack, but that's a different issue). So no, he did not wait at least 30 minutes, nor did he run for very long.

So, an arcane eye could have gone out the hole in the side of the prison, followed it down to the corresponding hole in the skylight of the library (before the librarian mended it), and then heard them talking about what a daring shapeshifting swashbuckler he must be to stick it to The Woman so thoroughly. She could have put 2 and 2 together from that, or she could have actually seen him shapeshift at the librarian's place if she decided to be a creepy voyeur. Though, I do not think the wizard would have gotten the word of his escape quickly enough to actually catch him in the act of shapeshifting at the library, even assuming arcane eye can see through nondetection, which it sounds like Jack Simth is saying it can't.

You know, now that I think about it, it seems like what the wizard really needed in this situation was a telescope.

[Ashtagon]

Arcane eye's sensor has a maximum speed of 30 ft -- enough to keep up with a walking human. A running human can reach 120 ft in speed - easily enough to break effective contact with the sensor in a round of three.

[Baphomet]

Right, but as I was saying he didn't actually run anywhere. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that there was enough time before the librarian mended the top of the library for the wizard to get word, cast the eye spell, then float it out to the hole in the side of her castle and down to the hole in the top of the library, even only moving 30 ft. per round. The abomination would still be there and would still be flirting with the librarian.

EDIT: unless you're saying it's unreasonable to expect her to do that, because she'd assume no one is stupid enough to pause their jailbreak to hook up with a squid lady. In which case, yeah, you'd have a point.