Dread Necro into MotAO?

[Vizzerdrix]

I've been doing a bit of poking around in the Dread Necromancers handbooks (working on a build) And the duo of classes mentioned in the topic title came to mind. I know a Sorcerer can get into Mage of the Arcane Order (and with some nice benefits too) but could the Dread Necromancer? I haven't seen it mentioned in any handbook for the DN so I figured I'd ask to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. :confused:

(Thinking:8/9 split, with 3 free levels to play around with)

[Greyfeld85]

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, neither DN, Sorcerer, or any other spontaneous caster can qualify for MotAO. The clause in question is the following requirement:


Able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

Spontaneous spellcasters don't prepare their spells. I'm sure there are some feat shenanigans somewhere that I'm not aware of that you can pull off to cheese your way into the PrC, but I'm like 99% sure that you otherwise can't qualify for it.

[Heatwizard]

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, neither DN, Sorcerer, or any other spontaneous caster can qualify for MotAO. The clause in question is the following requirement:



Spontaneous spellcasters don't prepare their spells. I'm sure there are some feat shenanigans somewhere that I'm not aware of that you can pull off to cheese your way into the PrC, but I'm like 99% sure that you otherwise can't qualify for it.

I don't know if I'd call one feat "cheese" or "shenanigans". Arcane Preparation, CArc 73. And Dread Necros do qualify, being spontaneous arcane casters, so prestige to your heart's content.

[gorfnab]

Unless I'm missing something really obvious, neither DN, Sorcerer, or any other spontaneous caster can qualify for MotAO. The clause in question is the following requirement:



Spontaneous spellcasters don't prepare their spells. I'm sure there are some feat shenanigans somewhere that I'm not aware of that you can pull off to cheese your way into the PrC, but I'm like 99% sure that you otherwise can't qualify for it.
The feat "shenanigans" are in the same book as the prestige class. All a DN would need to get into the MotAO is Cooperative Spell, Arcane Preparation, and one other metamagic feat.

Edit:Ninja'd

[Greyfeld85]

lol I knew somebody else would know a way to do it.

And I call it "shenanigans" because it's using a feat's technical wording to get around the fact that the class would be unable to gain access to a PrC under normal circumstances.

The fact is, spontaneous spellcasters are supposed to be limited by their finite spell list, which is why the PrC requires that the character be able to prepare spells. Using the technical wording in this feat to get around that limitation may be acceptable by RAW, but if I were the GM I wouldn't allow it, since it violates the spirit of the prestige class.

And no, I'm not going to derail this thread into a discussion of RAW vs RAI, and whether or not the designers actually intended the feat to be used in this way. I'm simply clarifying my personal opinion on the matter for those who commented on it.

[LordBlades]

And I call it "shenanigans" because it's using a feat's technical wording to get around the fact that the class would be unable to gain access to a PrC under normal circumstances.

Technically for any prestige class that requires a feat or more you can say you're using the feat(s) to get around the fact that your class wouldn't qualify otherwise.


The fact is, spontaneous spellcasters are supposed to be limited by their finite spell list, which is why the PrC requires that the character be able to prepare spells. Using the technical wording in this feat to get around that limitation may be acceptable by RAW, but if I were the GM I wouldn't allow it, since it violates the spirit of the prestige class.


From a mechanical point of view I see no problem tbh. Spontaneous and prepared casters were supposed to have different advantages and disadvantages, but they never really worked that way in game. Not when a Focused Specialist Wizard with Uncanny Forethought can be more Sorcerer-ish than a Sorcerer. Same goes for Cleric/Dweomerkeeper vs. Favored Soul. Most spontaneous casters in this game (I'd say all if not for the Sorcerer only spells) look just like red-headed stepchildren next to their prepared counterparts.

[Spuddles]

since it violates the spirit of the prestige class.

They're both printed in the same books, and the rules are crystal clear. The feat description for Arcane Preparation even hints at using it to enter MotAO:


Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know, usually for the purpose of applying a metamagic feat to the spell....

They're intended to work together.

[Vizzerdrix]

Well Greyfeld isn't the DM so all that is a non-issue anyways.

Things that are an issue:
1) the DM really wants someone to play dread necro in our upcoming undead campaign.
2) I hate keeping track of minions. This build will allow me to keep everyone happy. I'll keep a few things for myself (a mount and a minion) but I'm going to hand most of the critters I make off to the rest of the party and then just act like a wizard.

Unless anyone knows a way to make a Beguiler (The fuzzy little rat, not the class) into an undead? Then I might do something electricity based...:smallwink:

[Doxkid]

...the ONE time a DM actually wants a Dread Necro I have nothing to do with that group.

[Chronos]

The description of Mage of the Arcane Order includes:

In fact, the Order boasts almost no sorcerers, bards, or other characters with significant talent as spontaneous casters
There are almost no sorcerers in the Arcane Order. That makes it pretty clear that there are a few. And given that the same book has a feat that makes it possible, I can't see how that wasn't intended.

[Heatwizard]

Well Greyfeld isn't the DM so all that is a non-issue anyways.

Things that are an issue:
1) the DM really wants someone to play dread necro in our upcoming undead campaign.
2) I hate keeping track of minions. This build will allow me to keep everyone happy. I'll keep a few things for myself (a mount and a minion) but I'm going to hand most of the critters I make off to the rest of the party and then just act like a wizard.

Unless anyone knows a way to make a Beguiler (The fuzzy little rat, not the class) into an undead? Then I might do something electricity based...:smallwink:

The laziest necromancer. Just goin' round the party; "Hey, you want a zombie? I don't want 'im. Too much work. He's, uh, housetrained."

What's stopping you from just animating a Beguiler, same as anything else? Unless you mean YOU intend to be the beguiler, in which case look into Necropolitan.

[Greyfeld85]

The description of Mage of the Arcane Order includes:

There are almost no sorcerers in the Arcane Order. That makes it pretty clear that there are a few. And given that the same book has a feat that makes it possible, I can't see how that wasn't intended.

I already said it was simply my opinion and that I was only clarifying my stance for the sake of those who commented. Why do I have to continue defending myself? Does "in my opinion" mean something different in other parts of the country? Please don't waste your and my time ranting at me about why I'm wrong and how I should view this case of RAW.

Back on topic, if your DM wants a necromancer (I don't know if he specifically asked for a DN or if he would be willing to accept a necromancer archetype built from any class), you can build an Uttercold Assault Wizard. The basic idea is to take the Lord of the Uttercold and Energy Substitution (Cold) metamagic feats so you can throw out cold-typed walls of fire and fireballs that heal your undead while you damage everything else.

This allows you to do a bit of the "necromantic puppet master" thing, while still maintaining the ability to run as a your run of the mill batman wizard or blaster caster. In addition, if you take Tomb-Tainted Soul or get yourself turned into an undead, you can walk through your own Uttercold evocations without taking any damage.

If you ever need any info on necromancers, this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) is the place to look.

[Vizzerdrix]

The laziest necromancer. Just goin' round the party; "Hey, you want a zombie? I don't want 'im. Too much work. He's, uh, housetrained."

:smallconfused::smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

Ha HAAA! Yes, that sums it up nicely. Also it will even out the turn lengths a bit if everyone has a few undead they can play with.


As for the beguiler: Magical beasts aren't on the list of creature types that Necropolitan can apply to.

[Chronos]

I think he meant beguiler the class, not beguiler the monster.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I think he meant beguiler the class, not beguiler the monster.

No, the OP meant the creature.


Well Greyfeld isn't the DM so all that is a non-issue anyways.

Unless anyone knows a way to make a Beguiler (The fuzzy little rat, not the class) into an undead? Then I might do something electricity based...:smallwink:

Back on topic, If you just want a necromancer archetype, I had fun playing with a Water Elemental Savant Uttercold Wizard. IT automaticaly makes all your spells cold.

[Heatwizard]

As for the beguiler: Magical beasts aren't on the list of creature types that Necropolitan can apply to.

Oh, hm. Those guys are a pain to stick templates to. You could be a ghost?

[JoshuaZ]

I already said it was simply my opinion and that I was only clarifying my stance for the sake of those who commented. Why do I have to continue defending myself? Does "in my opinion" mean something different in other parts of the country? Please don't waste your and my time ranting at me about why I'm wrong and how I should view this case of RAW.


You don't have to "defend" yourself at all. But saying something is "simply my opinion" doesn't make the viewpoint immune from criticism or discussion. There's a connected issue which is the problem seeing this as something which needs to be defended or that people bringing up other arguments are are ranting at you. People can discuss an idea without it being personal. Someone can disagree with an idea or opinion, explain why they disagree and do so without it being targeted at someone.