Emperor Palpatine (Star Wars) v.s Aang The Avatar (Avatar, the Last Airbender)

[ArlEammon]

Palpatine, Dark Emperor of the Galactic Empire, also known as Darth Sidious, has a problem. His Star Destroyer has crash landed on the world of Avatar, the Last Airbender. On the other hand, despite the rather unique abilities of it's inhabitants, no one on the World possesses an active power over The Force. . . All the more reason to attempt a Conquest of this primitive new world. After all, their are no space lanes leading back to the Galactic Empire. The Emperor doesn't even know how he ended up in this mysterious place.

Aang is the Avatar now, and is quite capable of all the feats he has ever shown his enemies. After defeating Orzai, Aang goes to the mountains and meditates on the future, the present and the past, and is content on living the peaceful life of the Avatar, and perhaps arising to meet the need of the world if it is ever again in peril. Suddenly, Aang feels a Dark Presence in the world, and returns to the same place he fought Orzai, in order to meet this challenge. It appears that Darth Sidious has been gathering an army. With alien, powerful technology he awakens The Force within a new Apprentice and also within many countless Force Adepts. However, Darth Sidious knows that his new amatuer dark Jedi and even his apprentice will not be able to stand up to The Avatar. With his contacts, Sidious is told who Aang is even as he approaches The Emperor. "I demand you stop your attempt at Conquest. I will do anything I require to take you down!" Aang boldy commanded.

Darth Sidious sneared. "I am more powerful than anything I've seen in your precious World. This World is now mine! Nothing can withstand the pure power of the Dark Side!" Suddenly Darth Sidious'es light saber is drawn, and the red, cutting light grows. "Soon, this World will BEND to me, OR IT WILL BE BROKEN!!!"

Aang gets ready for battle, and then, the combat begins!


Darth Sidious/Palpatine (http://www.electricferret.com/cbub/cbubcats/show?cid=129)

Aang The Avatar (http://www.electricferret.com/cbub/cbubcats/show?cid=426)

Edit-
Assume this is Palpatine as of a minor EU clone, with the power at least equalling that of Revenge of the Sith Era Palpatine.

[The Glyphstone]

So, just to be clear, it's a mano-a-mano smackdown, no allies or issues or arguments about Palpatine sneaking around behind the scenes for years while he manipulates the Earth and Fire Kingdoms into war against each other (again) and eventually takes the throne of both simultaneously or something? Just a no-holds barred, face-to-face Elements vs. Force brawl?

[ArlEammon]

So, just to be clear, it's a mano-a-mano smackdown, no allies or issues or arguments about Palpatine sneaking around behind the scenes for years while he manipulates the Earth and Fire Kingdoms into war against each other (again) and eventually takes the throne of both simultaneously or something? Just a no-holds barred, face-to-face Elements vs. Force brawl?

Right. The Force v.s The Elements.

[dehro]

this is pretty much the same premise we had in the Palpatine Vs Middle earth character of the day..
I bring therefore the same argument. if the world is that of the Avatarverse, then the rules of Avatarverse apply.
Within those rules, the Avatar reigns supreme.
To make it sporting, we should fing out how the force interacts with the elements, or at least how it compares. intuitively, I'd say that the force manifests itself either in energybending, which Aang has by now mastered, or Electricity bending, which Aang eats for breakfast. Either way, I don't see how Palpatine could win.
If push comes to shove and Aang is taken by surprise, Palpatine will manage to land a few blows..then Aang will airbend himself TFO of there, and make an earth sandwich of Palpatine from a distance. all the nifty technology Palpatine can count on can be metalbent into sludge by Aang..

and that's before getting in Avatar-state...which would be his last resort.. one I don't think he'd need.
In fact, the only chance Palpatine has is to walk up to Aang feigning surrender and then slice him in half with a lightsaber. One hit is all he's ever going to get though. Of course that does mean that he'll have more or less 10/16 years to do his thing..and then Korra will come around to open a can of phisical harm on him.

[ArlEammon]

The Dark Side works as per OP. :|

Yes this is Avatar-verse, but I want to see who would win in a fight between the two characters with vastly different powers.

[Lord Raziere]

yea, the Avatar can keep coming back, Palpatine can't, that and Aang is a young boy full of energy, while Palps is an old man with very little energy. in combat, I'd bet on the young boy. plus Aang probably has more experience in direct brawls and is faster. plus Bending seems to have more flexibility than the force, at least to my point of view.

[ArlEammon]

yea, the Avatar can keep coming back, Palpatine can't, that and Aang is a young boy full of energy, while Palps is an old man with very little energy. in combat, I'd bet on the young boy. plus Aang probably has more experience in direct brawls and is faster. plus Bending seems to have more flexibility than the force, at least to my point of view.

Yeah right, so, little, energy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8d5H4y-hzY)

And again

So little energy, he has! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEjcvIRMDo)

[dehro]

The Dark Side works as per OP. :|

Yes this is Avatar-verse, but I want to see who would win in a fight between the two characters with vastly different powers.

uhm..if the two don't really relate to one another, don't they neutralize one another as well?.. kinda?

what I mean is that if we take the Sith out of the lucasverse, what is left? the force is a bit of mixed bag of tricks.. in a world that is ruled by the interaction between phisical and spiritual realms..where does the force and it's manipulation fit in?
ultimately if it can't be explained in in-universe terms and "normalized" you can only look at it for the physical stunts/effects it has.. so.. telekinesis, forceblasts, electric shock, force-choke and such.. all things that happen in relatively close quarters..something that Aang doesn't need. he can strike from a distance...certainly more so than any force wielder I've ever seen on screen...
Aang can't counter a forcepush with another forcepush, but he can bring in airbending which does the same..or rain fiery rocks on palpatine. I'm not sure that sith powers have any effect on elemental bending, or that they're versatile enough to compensate for the sheer volume of elemental bending that can happen at the hands of a master. (because not having anything on the other power should go both ways)

[Lord Raziere]

look I'm just saying, getting shocked then sitting around ruling an empire for 40/30 years probably doesn't do good for your health, especially as you age.

[ArlEammon]

uhm..if the two don't really relate to one another, don't they neutralize one another as well?.. kinda?

what I mean is that if we take the Sith out of the lucasverse, what is left? the force is a bit of mixed bag of tricks.. in a world that is ruled by the interaction between phisical and spiritual realms..where does the force and it's manipulation fit in?
ultimately if it can't be explained in in-universe terms and "normalized" you can only look at it for the physical stunts/effects it has.. so.. telekinesis, forceblasts, electric shock, force-choke and such.. all things that happen in relatively close quarters..something that Aang doesn't need. he can strike from a distance...certainly more so than any force wielder I've ever seen on screen...
Aang can't counter a forcepush with another forcepush, but he can bring in airbending which does the same..or rain fiery rocks on palpatine. I'm not sure that sith powers have any effect on elemental bending, or that they're versatile enough to compensate for the sheer volume of elemental bending that can happen at the hands of a master. (because not having anything on the other power should go both ways)

. . . Kay then. If you are stating why you think Palpatine would win, then you're doing great. This is a versus thread after all. But if you're saying it doesn't make sense for the Force to exist within this world, it doesn't make sense for Bending to exist in the world either. Neither Bending, Nor the Force exist. However, I could just explain that The Force is just an extra Bending force, but none of the Avatars or Benders know how to use it, which I have sort of quasi/pseudo explained in the OP.


look I'm just saying, getting shocked then sitting around ruling an empire for 40/30 years probably doesn't do good for your health, especially as you age.


This is true. However as of OP this is the Emperor who still uses Lightsabers. :|

[dehro]

. . . Kay then. If you are stating why you think Palpatine would win, then you're doing great. This is a versus thread after all. But if you're saying it doesn't make sense for the Force to exist within this world, it doesn't make sense for Bending to exist in the world either. Neither Bending, Nor the Force exist. However, I could just explain that The Force is just an extra Bending force, but none of the Avatars or Benders know how to use it, which I have sort of quasi/pseudo explained in the OP.

surely you mean Aang?

actually yes, it makes sense in avatarverse, because that's what the avatarverse is basically build upon. it's intrinsec to it's nature.
if you had said that they meet on neutral ground, I would not have spoken about normalizing the force in avatar-friendly terms.
so, assuming that both these forces are existent and not intrinsecally linked (because if it's forcebending, Aang might just take it away from him by energybending.. he doesn't have to know how it works, to steal it from him)..then again, the match should be decided by the physical manifestations of the powers involved. quite simply, Aang has an edge there because he can strike from afar, steal the ground from under palpatine or encase him in lava or other skin-unfriendly stuff. I don't know that there are Sith powers that can strike from as much of a distance as we've seen Aang work.
I am willing to give Palpatine a fighting chance if they go melee.. if he can quasi-defeat Yoda, it has to mean that he's got some skills.. and Aang might be taken by surprise by lightsabers.. but that's really the only chance Palpatine has. his powers simply aren't versatile enough to counter bending powers..Aang on the other hand can ply his powers to mimic the effects of Palpatine's..and do a crapload more.

[The Glyphstone]

I gotta give this to the Avatar myself. Palpatine can jump pretty good, but he can't actually fly, so Avatar has mobility and can stay out of reach of the laser sword of doom. They can both telekinetically fling projectiles or knock their opponents around, though the Avatar has a miniscule advantage in being able to create new projectiles out of the ground. Palpatine can project lightning, but a trained Avatar can also absorb/redirect lightning attacks via firebending (the first power transparency interaction, but I think it's reasonable). Palpatine is also more vulnerable to counter-attacks via firebending, which a lightsaber (probably) cannot deflect.

I think the only combat trick Palpatine has the Avatar can't actually duplicate is Force Choke, so the deciding factor is if Aang can use Avatar powers while holding his breath/being strangled...Palpatine is effectively immobile while maintaining a force choke, so a nice boulder in the back will either cream him or force him to release Aang for self-defense.

[ArlEammon]

I gotta give this to the Avatar myself. Palpatine can jump pretty good, but he can't actually fly, so Avatar has mobility and can stay out of reach of the laser sword of doom. They can both telekinetically fling projectiles or knock their opponents around, though the Avatar has a miniscule advantage in being able to create new projectiles out of the ground. Palpatine can project lightning, but a trained Avatar can also absorb/redirect lightning attacks via firebending (the first power transparency interaction, but I think it's reasonable). Palpatine is also more vulnerable to counter-attacks via firebending, which a lightsaber (probably) cannot deflect.

I think the only combat trick Palpatine has the Avatar can't actually duplicate is Force Choke, so the deciding factor is if Aang can use Avatar powers while holding his breath/being strangled...Palpatine is effectively immobile while maintaining a force choke, so a nice boulder in the back will either cream him or force him to release Aang for self-defense.

Palpatine has Force Precognition. It should make Avatar's attacks harder to be effective, even the boulder trick you mentioned. I see Palpatine choking Aang, and then as Avatar tries toe boulder trick, Palpatine just dodges. Although, Palpatine IS rendered immobile when he's doing that trick, he could try it multiple times. Hmmm...

[dehro]

When you said force precognition I could not help but remember a scene in a discworld novel where Rincewind basically goes "oh****oh****oh****oh****Imgonnadie"
I can't help thinking that Palpatine would be pretty much in the same situation... knowing that half a mountain is about to topple on your face isn't going to be of much help, when you're trying to keep your enemy from breathing.

[ArlEammon]

Some of Emperor Palpatine's nicknames include "Wankatine". If he really will be curb-stomped in this verse to such an absurd degree that you suggest, Expanded Universe Palpatine might get involved. :|

[Flickerdart]

Palpatine has Force Precognition. It should make Avatar's attacks harder to be effective, even the boulder trick you mentioned. I see Palpatine choking Aang, and then as Avatar tries toe boulder trick, Palpatine just dodges. Although, Palpatine IS rendered immobile when he's doing that trick, he could try it multiple times. Hmmm...
Precognition does nothing if you can't dodge the attack. Avatar State Aang is capable of moving enormous masses of elements. As an Airbender, I don't see Aang having much of a problem breathing, either.

[ArlEammon]

Precognition does nothing if you can't dodge the attack. Avatar State Aang is capable of moving enormous masses of elements. As an Airbender, I don't see Aang having much of a problem breathing, either.

If your "wind" pipe's not moving in your neck, it doesn't matter how much you can break wind. /just kidding

[The Glyphstone]

Palpatine has Force Precognition. It should make Avatar's attacks harder to be effective, even the boulder trick you mentioned. I see Palpatine choking Aang, and then as Avatar tries toe boulder trick, Palpatine just dodges. Although, Palpatine IS rendered immobile when he's doing that trick, he could try it multiple times. Hmmm...

That was exactly my point - he may see the boulder coming, but then it just forces:smallsmile: him to make a conscious choice between taking the hit and keeping his hold - release Aang, and Aang can retreat out of range or break line of sight.

Hmm....Earthbending tremorsense plus airbending manipulation for fog/clouds = Avatar's possible ability to attack freely without retaliation, since Palpatine needs to see his target for all of his offensive tactics. He can still Precog incoming hits and dodge, but not forever.

[Flickerdart]

If your "wind" pipe's not moving in your neck, it doesn't matter how much you can break wind. /just kidding
That brings up a terrifying thought - if top-level Firebenders can bend with nothing but their breath, what other potential vectors for Air (or for that matter, also Fire) bending are there? :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

That brings up a terrifying thought - if top-level Firebenders can bend with nothing but their breath, what other potential vectors for Air (or for that matter, also Fire) bending are there? :smallbiggrin:

Well, if Avatar wasn't a kid's show, he could suffocate people by sucking all the air out of their lungs and isolating them in a bubble of vacuum.

[Flickerdart]

Well, I meant more along the lines of using firebending to jetpack, but from, ah...a different place than normal.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, I meant more along the lines of using firebending to jetpack, but from, ah...a different place than normal.

We're discussing the Avatar, not William Wallace.:smallbiggrin:

[Chen]

Not super familiar with the powers of Aang but I suspect the lightsabers might be his downfall. If he treats them as regular swords he might just end up getting cut in half before he realizes he cannot really stop them with the same type of physical barrier.

If they're both immediately willing to kill each other I suspect Aang will have a crushed throat pretty quick, but will probably be able to throw a prodigious amount of fire at Palps which might just end up with both of them dying very early in the fight.

[Flickerdart]

Aang doesn't really block so much as dodge, and most of his techniques are mid-range attacks, so he's very well suited to fight against a lightsaber wielder. The newer avatar, Korra, would get her ass kicked though, because her fighting style is extremely up close.

[Absol197]

I'm not positive on the supposed mechanics of lightsabers, but wouldn't a focused beam of plasma technically count as fire? If so, Aang (or Korra, if it comes to that) could block a lightsaber with firebending. That would take away Palpatine's one great advantage.

[Xondoure]

Palpatine's got this hands down. With his incredible precognitive abilities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNYtN6gwwyY&feature=related#t=6m0s) he can predict any move the Avatar makes, and the Avatar simply does not have the tools (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=7m46s) to counteract that. Not to mention force lightning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8d5H4y-hzY#t=3m30s) which is something only master fire benders (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=2m28s) have access to and as we all know defeated Aang before. And then there's the fact that Palpatine's telekinetics have been known to lift already floating senate chairs! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEjcvIRMDo#t=4m16s) A feat of raw strength much more impressive than anything performed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=6m12s) by (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP6WYCNlXxs#t=4m42s) the Avatar. (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Kyoshi_Island) Unfortuantely the lightsaber is sort of useless being made of condensed heat and all which the Avatar could probably bend, but hey, that's just a minor detail compared to how awesome Palpatine is right?

[Aotrs Commander]

Palpatine's got this hands down. With his incredible precognitive abilities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNYtN6gwwyY&feature=related#t=6m0s) he can predict any move the Avatar makes, and the Avatar simply does not have the tools (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=7m46s) to counteract that. Not to mention force lightning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8d5H4y-hzY#t=3m30s) which is something only master fire benders (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=2m28s) have access to and as we all know defeated Aang before. And then there's the fact that Palpatine's telekinetics have been known to lift already floating senate chairs! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFEjcvIRMDo#t=4m16s) A feat of raw strength much more impressive than anything performed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkv-c3np4fM#t=6m12s) by (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP6WYCNlXxs#t=4m42s) the Avatar. (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Kyoshi_Island) Unfortuantely the lightsaber is sort of useless being made of condensed heat and all which the Avatar could probably bend, but hey, that's just a minor detail compared to how awesome Palpatine is right?

It took me until a second reading and checking the links until I twigged what you were getting at...

Good show, sir, good show...

[Madara]

Just like in DnD, it comes down to Versatility, which I thing aang has the most of. If all else fails, he could just hide underground. That seems to be a nice defense.

Probably Aang's biggest advantage would be airbending and earthbending in this fight. Granted, if he just used some water to freeze Palpatine..it'd be over, but water is harder to get a hold of.

[Prime32]

the Avatar can keep coming back, Palpatine can'tHave you read any of the EU? :smalltongue:

Also, if someone's weapon was a shaft of glowing red light that made buzzing noises I really don't think Aang would "treat it like a regular sword".

[Flickerdart]

Probably Aang's biggest advantage would be airbending and earthbending in this fight. Granted, if he just used some water to freeze Palpatine..it'd be over, but water is harder to get a hold of.
Powerful waterbenders can pull water from flowers, trees, clouds, sweat...and Aang is the Avatar, the most powerful bender of them all.

[Xondoure]

It took me until a second reading and checking the links until I twigged what you were getting at...

Good show, sir, good show...

*bows* I'll be here all week. :smalltongue:

[Sotharsyl]

Palpatine has no chance, Ozai is Mark Hamill aka Luke Skywalker which makes Zuko and Azula Skywallker's and the Force does indeed run in this family.

Palpatine can handle a Skywalker at a time but two Skywalker's channelling family bonds can take him out no problem.

Zuko let's say started out as Dark Side but crawled his way back into the Light he should be resistant to Palaptine's temptations.

Azula let's assume she's gotten sane in the mean time goes the infiltration route and become the emperor’s apprentice now either she turns back to the Light, not really seeing it but Vader got back after Alderraan, or she betrays Palpatine during his showdown with Zuko.

Every scenario ends with Palpatine defeated.

[ArlEammon]

Palpatine has no chance, Ozai is Mark Hamill aka Luke Skywalker which makes Zuko and Azula Skywallker's and the Force does indeed run in this family.

Palpatine can handle a Skywalker at a time but two Skywalker's channelling family bonds can take him out no problem.

Zuko let's say started out as Dark Side but crawled his way back into the Light he should be resistant to Palaptine's temptations.

Azula let's assume she's gotten sane in the mean time goes the infiltration route and become the emperor’s apprentice now either she turns back to the Light, not really seeing it but Vader got back after Alderraan, or she betrays Palpatine during his showdown with Zuko.

Every scenario ends with Palpatine defeated.

Hey man don't make me loose the EU on you!:smallamused:

[Sotharsyl]

Hey man don't make me loose the EU on you!:smallamused:

If I remember my EU correctly Palpatine came back and Luke and Leia eventually defeated him so I don't see your point :smalltongue:

[Chirios]

lol at how quickly Aang will get wtfpwned.

This isn't a fair fight, at all.

[dehro]

lol at how quickly Aang will get wtfpwned.

This isn't a fair fight, at all.

since you seem to be the only one who thinks Palpatine would win this easily (or... at all), would you mind sharing with us why you think so?

[Devonix]

Yeah I don't really see how Palpatine has a shot at this fight even if Aang held back and didn't go Avatar state.

With Avatar State it isn't even entertaining how fast it goes down.

[ArlEammon]

since you seem to be the only one who thinks Palpatine would win this easily (or... at all), would you mind sharing with us why you think so?

Well, I think that he "has a shot" but I"ve been convinced that it's not likely he'll win.

[Wyntonian]

Gawd I need to finally watch A:tla. This just sounds too cool.

[Anteros]

Fire benders can redirect a lightning strike. Which is like one millisecond's worth of lightning. Palpatine's is more of a constant barrage...I highly doubt Aang could redirect it.

[Flickerdart]

Fire benders can redirect a lightning strike. Which is like one millisecond's worth of lightning. Palpatine's is more of a constant barrage...I highly doubt Aang could redirect it.
Except that firebenders can and do produce a constant stream of lightning, not just a single strike. As Iroh describes the technique, it can absorb and then release any amount of lightning over any duration, so long as you do it right.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Orzai? What kind of Avatar fan are you?


Gawd I need to finally watch A:tla. This just sounds too cool.
Just ignore the Aang/Katara romance. As in, all of it. Or at the least, pretend not to notice, and take the guru's mention of it at the season 2 finale as a complete shocker, and draw the conclusion that he recognizes true love, even when it's dormant. That would be much, much better than what we get.

Anyway, Aang wins.
Palpatine uses Force Lightning: "UNLIMITED POWA!!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54XwUi7Hc0k#t=11m7s)
Aang redirects it all.
Aang then proceeds to kick ass.

[dehro]

Except that firebenders can and do produce a constant stream of lightning, not just a single strike. As Iroh describes the technique, it can absorb and then release any amount of lightning over any duration, so long as you do it right.

this..also, dodge

[Sith_Happens]

I think it's important to nail down what version of Palpatine we're talking about here. His power level increased... rather (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#Powers_and_abilities) drastically (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)) over the course of the books. Pretty much to planet-killing levels, in fact.

[ArlEammon]

I think it's important to nail down what version of Palpatine we're talking about here. His power level increased... rather (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#Powers_and_abilities) drastically (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)) over the course of the books. Pretty much to planet-killing levels, in fact.

Which version was equal to Aang in some way? Maybe the one that killed a dragon with his force lightning.

[Xondoure]

I think it's important to nail down what version of Palpatine we're talking about here. His power level increased... rather (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine#Powers_and_abilities) drastically (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(wormhole)) over the course of the books. Pretty much to planet-killing levels, in fact.

The first link would be a lot more impressive without the long list of wiki warnings at the top of the page. :smalltongue:

[JCarter426]

Pretty much to planet-killing levels, in fact.
And how would he harness this power while standing on the planet? :smalltongue:

Also, he doesn't seem to be able to cheat death if he doesn't have clones of himself prepared beforehand.

Those are really the only big things the Expanded Universe gives him, incidentally. Most of his practical power comes from superweapons, which he obviously wouldn't have and couldn't use if he had them, as previously mentioned. He also seems to care too much about living for murder-suicide to be an option. I'd say he'd be content with Aang taking him prisoner - of course Aang wouldn't kill him - because he'd think he could manipulate his way back out and into power. He might not be wrong, either... but that's not the subject of debate.

[Starwulf]

Powerful waterbenders can pull water from flowers, trees, clouds, sweat...and Aang is the Avatar, the most powerful bender of them all.

That immediately makes me think "Well, if Avatar wasn't a kids show, Aang could remove all of the water from a persons body, and then use that water to encase them in a solid block of ice just for added brutality/icing on the cake.

[Absol197]

That immediately makes me think "Well, if Avatar wasn't a kids show, Aang could remove all of the water from a persons body, and then use that water to encase them in a solid block of ice just for added brutality/icing on the cake.

Bloodbending is a thing in the show. They never take it quite that far, but I don't doubt that a powerful waterbender could do it.

Heck, for the Avatar d20 system I'm making (see my sig if you're interested) I designed an advanced waterbending technique called Freeze the Lifeblood. It basically combines the common waterbending ability to freeze water with bloodbending, turning the blood of the target to ice. As should be obvious, this technique is lethal.

[Xondoure]

Bloodbending is described as extremely difficult. Personal canon is that the other person's life energy interferes with the benders ability to manipulate the blood.

[Sith_Happens]

Which version was equal to Aang in some way? Maybe the one that killed a dragon with his force lightning.

Well that also raises the question of whether we're talking about kid Aang from the first series, or adult Aang that we don't really know anything about yet but whose abilities can be reasonably speculated based on other avatars.


That immediately makes me think "Well, if Avatar wasn't a kids show, Aang could remove all of the water from a persons body, and then use that water to encase them in a solid block of ice just for added brutality/icing on the cake.

There are a lot of things that characters could and would do if it weren't for the TV-Y7 rating. Mainly, all that earth, water/ice, and air that gets thrown around would tend to be a lot sharper (and the fire would more regularly behave like, well, fire).

[Xondoure]

Sharp air always puzzles me. Do winds ever get precise enough to have a cutting edge? Massive force I can understand, but really, Air's strength is in it's mobility rather than it's damaging effects.

The other three I agree with.

Also this is post Ozai defeat. So I think it's safe to say Aang is in top avatar form.

[dehro]

That immediately makes me think "Well, if Avatar wasn't a kids show, Aang could remove all of the water from a persons body, and then use that water to encase them in a solid block of ice just for added brutality/icing on the cake.

you mean like this?

http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Han-Solo-Frozen-In-Carbonite-Blanket_1.jpg
:smallamused::smallamused: the irony!

[The Glyphstone]

you mean like this?

http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Han-Solo-Frozen-In-Carbonite-Blanket_1.jpg
:smallamused::smallamused: the irony!


Nah, more like freeze-dried jerky. Still funny though.

[Chen]

I don't know what kind of telekinetic like abilities Aang has, but really with the telekinetic abilities Palpatine has it SHOULD end immediately. If force users can lift senate chairs or x-wings out of swamps they can easily instantly kill someone. Why force choke takes a while to kill someone only seems to be because you're suffocating them instead of just breaking their necks. With the telekinetic power available to most force users it seems like the simplest way to win fights with non-force users would be just to tear them in half (or tear of limbs) with a thought. Even if you didn't want to use the force to tear the limb, breaking all the bones in various limbs should be super simple considering the amount of force that the Force can produce.

Of course like most super strong things, no one actually does this to kill people. They just throw them across the room for more dramatic fights instead of snapping bones and the like...

[dehro]

Of course like most super strong things, no one actually does this to kill people. They just throw them across the room for more dramatic fights instead of snapping bones and the like...

oh..you mean like airbending? :smallamused:

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know what kind of telekinetic like abilities Aang has, but really with the telekinetic abilities Palpatine has it SHOULD end immediately. If force users can lift senate chairs or x-wings out of swamps they can easily instantly kill someone. Why force choke takes a while to kill someone only seems to be because you're suffocating them instead of just breaking their necks. With the telekinetic power available to most force users it seems like the simplest way to win fights with non-force users would be just to tear them in half (or tear of limbs) with a thought. Even if you didn't want to use the force to tear the limb, breaking all the bones in various limbs should be super simple considering the amount of force that the Force can produce.

Of course like most super strong things, no one actually does this to kill people. They just throw them across the room for more dramatic fights instead of snapping bones and the like...

Because Force powers don't follow rules like we'd expect, as far as we can tell. We have no idea if the Force, even in the hands of a Sith, can even target individual body parts, compared to just targeting the whole person - if that was true, it'd explain why they do things like throw them across the room instead of breaking bones or dismembering limbs; that Force Powers can't make Called Shots. Force Choke might work like it does because that's how the power works...it specifically strangles someone, it's not just a variant application of Force Telekinesis aimed at the throat. Space Magic doesn't have to make sense.

[Sith_Happens]

Because Force powers don't follow rules like we'd expect, as far as we can tell. We have no idea if the Force, even in the hands of a Sith, can even target individual body parts, compared to just targeting the whole person - if that was true, it'd explain why they do things like throw them across the room instead of breaking bones or dismembering limbs; that Force Powers can't make Called Shots. Force Choke might work like it does because that's how the power works...it specifically strangles someone, it's not just a variant application of Force Telekinesis aimed at the throat. Space Magic doesn't have to make sense.

Well, Greivous had that cough because of Mace Windu crushing his chest in the Clone Wars miniseries, so we do know that that's a thing you can do.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, Greivous had that cough because of Mace Windu crushing his chest in the Clone Wars miniseries, so we do know that that's a thing you can do.

Blargh. I'll chalk that up to 'Mace Windu is so hardcore he can do the impossible' in my personal fanon, I guess. Because like Chen said, it'd be a fairly logical thing if it were possible, so either it's not possible, being Force-sensitive drops your IQ by 50 points, or Jedi training involves breaking down the 4th wall and deliberately putting on a show for the real-world audience.

[hamishspence]

Given that he exhibits the same couph in the The Clone Wars series, before the assault on Coruscant and the "kidnapping of Palpatine" where Mace in the miniseries does the crushing, it appears that there's been a retcon.

That said, Force Crush appears a lot in the EU. As well as scenes where a specific body part is crushed.

In The Courtship of Princess Leia, Gethzerion starts crushing Han's bones one by one before she's distracted. Luckily he manages to slow her down by going "Not the teeth- anything but the teeth" so of course she targets them first.

In Darth Bane: Rule of Two Zannah makes her cousin's hand explode- though she's somewhat untrained and we never see her repeat this feat.

[The Glyphstone]

...Darn you, EU, for wrecking my theories.

[dehro]

EU? there is no such thing..this is not the EU you're looking for.
:smallamused:

[Chen]

Well I'm going to chalk it up to villain stupidity then for the most part (I'm sure there's a trope for it but I can't access TVtropes from work). Like I said people with super strength lift people by their throats all the time and then throw them into walls instead of just breaking their necks. Its a general fiction problem. Humans are REMARKABLY frail. If your hero can lift a car or break through a brick wall with no effort, he's going to kill someone if he punches them with that amount of force.

The same pretty much goes here. The fight should start and Palp should just hit Aang in the head with the same amount of force he used to throw those senate chairs around, which in turn should pretty much turn Aang's head into mush. I don't know Aang's strengths in terms of applying force at a distance but I imagine it too is probably sufficient to outright kill Palp as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Palp does have precognition which will give him an advantage, though it might limit him from being able to just insta-kill Aang off the bat if he has to protect himself.

[Sith_Happens]

In The Courtship of Princess Leia, Gethzerion starts crushing Han's bones one by one before she's distracted. Luckily he manages to slow her down by going "Not the teeth- anything but the teeth" so of course she targets them first.

...Holy crap. Every time I think that Han Solo (or Boba Fett, for that matter) has finally reached peak hardcoreness/awesomeness, I find out about something like this. Sure, from a purely practical perspective you're a lot better off than the alternative, but having your teeth crushed would probably be one of the most painful things that can ever happen to you.:smalleek:

[Aotrs Commander]

The same pretty much goes here. The fight should start and Palp should just hit Aang in the head with the same amount of force he used to throw those senate chairs around, which in turn should pretty much turn Aang's head into mush. I don't know Aang's strengths in terms of applying force at a distance but I imagine it too is probably sufficient to outright kill Palp as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Palp does have precognition which will give him an advantage, though it might limit him from being able to just insta-kill Aang off the bat if he has to protect himself.

Except that he won't. We're talking about how Palpatine would fight, not how we'd fight with Palpatine's powers. And Palpatine wouldn't simply kill Aang out of hand (as he should have tried against many of his other opponents, even assuming that trick wouldn't have worked on other jedi), because that's just not who Palpatine is. He would be smug and insufferable, as always, and gloat, and genuinely believe that Aang is incapable of beating him.

Palaptine's precog is no Sharigarn, it's pretty cruddy, considering the amount of times he got killed. (I mean, you'd think after the whole Vader-chucks-him-down-the-shaft thing, he'd at least have had the common to stop grandstanding next time... And he was finally shot in the back and killed by entirely-not-a-superpowered-dude Han Solo.)

So forgive me for thinking the thought that a twelve year old, non-force-using being would be able to beat him wouldn't ever even enter Palpatine mind. Palpatine's biggest and most fatal weakest was ALWAYS his overconfidence and arroggance, and that got him killed not once, but THREE TIMES. Which is pretty impressively daft if you think about... (And I say this as a complete and total Imperial Loyalist.)

(Now, give THRAWN Palpatine's powers...!)



Conversely, I don't see Aang actually (intentionally) killing him, but doing his damnest to do something else, though whether in the end he'd actually have to buckle down and deal with Palpatine the way he probably should dealt with Ozai (and only skirted round due to deus ex machina) is another question.

(Unless he kidnapped/seriously hurt one of Aang's friends, then all bets could be off...!)



So, if we allow Palpatine to instakill out of character, then we should equally allow Avatar Kyoushi to shove Aang out of the mental way and reduce Palpatine to a mush by simply slamming several mountains on top of him; which I think would be equally unlikely.

And once you start getting into insta-kills, the merits of debating who would win become immaterial, is it comes, as they say, down to the roll of the dice and who gets lucky first.

[JCarter426]

...Darn you, EU, for wrecking my theories.
There's another possibility, that it's more difficult to directly and specifically attack a Force user with the Force, because they have more control over the Force energy in and around their bodies, granting them a natural resistance. This would explain why they have lightsabers and use the Force to create lightning or throw stuff, as well. Pushing and choking Dark Jedi never works in the games, for example. As far as I can remember, there is only one case of a Jedi being choked in the films; it was more of a sneak attack and quickly countered.

Now, you might say that makes Aang especially vulnerable to the Force. But I don't think that's fair. Saying Aang should be vulnerable to the Force because it doesn't exist in his universe isn't far off from saying Palpatine should be powerless because the Force doesn't exist in that universe.

[lt_murgen]

Ok, so in the situation described in the first post you gave the following facts:

1) THe emperor crashed in an Imperial Star Destroyer
2) He set about gathering an army
3) He awakened the force in an apprentice and many adepts.

Now Aang comes to challenge him.

So, Palpatine is in his new throne room. Obvious, since Aang came to him and he is not one to travel about.
Palpatine is paranoid to a fault, and has been shown to surround himself with troops. As Aang moved to attack before Palaptine had a chance to dismiss his troops, they would be there.

As the attack commences, Aang would find himself beset by Imperial troops with sniper rifles and stun/shock grenades. These would be solely to distract and disorient him. Next would come the Imperial Guards and sith adepts. Again, they serve only to make Aang demonstrate the depth and breadth of his power. Palpatine may have heard rumors but would want to confirm.

At some convienent point, Palaptine would slip out of his throne room while Aang was busy. Palpatine had no problem blowing up an entire occupied building on Coruscant to prevent the Jedi finding his secret tunnels, so detonating the entire throne room would be of no consequence. Likely he would use both thermal, high explosive, and radiation in the explosion.

Now, Palpatine also had a fondness for sith alchemy, so I would expect he would go and unleash his chryslide beasts (think rancors on steroids wearing armor) to dig through the rubble and find Aang.

Then, and only if Aang survuved, would he have to face palpatine, who had the skill to fight the two greatest swordsmen of the Jedi to a standstill. In addition to force lightning, he would employ drain life, which pulls the very life energy out of a victim (at a distance) and gives it to Palps to restore him.

Throughout this entire attack, he would portray himself as frail and weak, so as to lure Aang in. He is hardly that, and with force speed and force rage, his attacks would be swift and massive. He would also be employing the force technique of Dun Moch to make Aang doubt himself and his abilities.

If worse came to worse, he would unleash a force storm and destroy large portions of the planet, trusting in his ability to transfer his essence into another vessel. It doesn't need to be a clone, and can be done over galactic distances- sw from Endor in the Outer Rim to Byss in the Deep Core.

[The Glyphstone]

Ok, so in the situation described in the first post you gave the following facts:

1) THe emperor crashed in an Imperial Star Destroyer
2) He set about gathering an army
3) He awakened the force in an apprentice and many adepts.

Now Aang comes to challenge him.

So, Palpatine is in his new throne room. Obvious, since Aang came to him and he is not one to travel about.
Palpatine is paranoid to a fault, and has been shown to surround himself with troops. As Aang moved to attack before Palaptine had a chance to dismiss his troops, they would be there.

As the attack commences, Aang would find himself beset by Imperial troops with sniper rifles and stun/shock grenades. These would be solely to distract and disorient him. Next would come the Imperial Guards and sith adepts. Again, they serve only to make Aang demonstrate the depth and breadth of his power. Palpatine may have heard rumors but would want to confirm.

At some convienent point, Palaptine would slip out of his throne room while Aang was busy. Palpatine had no problem blowing up an entire occupied building on Coruscant to prevent the Jedi finding his secret tunnels, so detonating the entire throne room would be of no consequence. Likely he would use both thermal, high explosive, and radiation in the explosion.

Now, Palpatine also had a fondness for sith alchemy, so I would expect he would go and unleash his chryslide beasts (think rancors on steroids wearing armor) to dig through the rubble and find Aang.

Then, and only if Aang survuved, would he have to face palpatine, who had the skill to fight the two greatest swordsmen of the Jedi to a standstill. In addition to force lightning, he would employ drain life, which pulls the very life energy out of a victim (at a distance) and gives it to Palps to restore him.

Throughout this entire attack, he would portray himself as frail and weak, so as to lure Aang in. He is hardly that, and with force speed and force rage, his attacks would be swift and massive. He would also be employing the force technique of Dun Moch to make Aang doubt himself and his abilities.

If worse came to worse, he would unleash a force storm and destroy large portions of the planet, trusting in his ability to transfer his essence into another vessel. It doesn't need to be a clone, and can be done over galactic distances- sw from Endor in the Outer Rim to Byss in the Deep Core.

Read more than just the OP - it was clarified that Palpatine's star destroyer and minions are for flavor, the actual fight is a 1v1 mano-a-mano battle between Palpatine and Aang. Nor can he do things like summon Force storms, because his power is equivalent to what he was capable of in Revenge of the Sith. It's not Aang vs. Palpatine And The Entire Population Of A Star Destroyer.

[Xondoure]

Read more than just the OP - it was clarified that Palpatine's star destroyer and minions are for flavor, the actual fight is a 1v1 mano-a-mano battle between Palpatine and Aang. Nor can he do things like summon Force storms, because his power is equivalent to what he was capable of in Revenge of the Sith. It's not Aang vs. Palpatine And The Entire Population Of A Star Destroyer.

And even if it was I'm afraid it_murgen is not grasping the full power of the Avatar. Need I remind anyone of the north pole? There was an entire armada, until the ocean spirit got a little bit upset.

Against something like energy weapons the Avatar would simply fall into the earth and proceed to drown everything standing on the ground.

I'm pretty sure Avatar state rules works something like this: pick the most badass thing the avatar could possibly due with ridiculously overpowered bending. It happens.

[Flickerdart]

I don't think pitting the Avatar state against RotS Palpatine is entirely fair. The real question is - can Aang land Energybending on Palpatine?

[Aotrs Commander]

To be fair, I can't see Palpatine levelling up that much during his stint as Emperor, on the basis he'd be spending more time doing Emperor-y type of things, rather than Sith-y type of things (and while he's training Hands and Vader, he's not training himself.)

So I can't imagine he's capabilities being much less in RotS than at his final end.

(One might even tentatively suggest, rather than getting more skilled the second and third time, he just got more unhinged with each death and started trying really crazy (i.e. more potentially hazardous to himself) things he wouldn't have done before his first death in cold blood (i.e. force storms, because that turned out so well for him, didn't it...?))

[dehro]

I don't think pitting the Avatar state against RotS Palpatine is entirely fair. The real question is - can Aang land Energybending on Palpatine?

would it do any good, if Palpatine is not a bender but acts on the force which seems to be something entirely different?

[Xondoure]

would it do any good, if Palpatine is not a bender but acts on the force which seems to be something entirely different?

It is all life energy though.

[dehro]

It is all life energy though.

then, I don't know the answer...
my best guess is that ..if they go for a in-your-face scuffle instead of long range where Aang has the advantage, Palpatine might have the upper hand in the initial stages of the fight, especially if he can surprise Aang. If however he doesn't get the kill in quickly, Aang will size him up, and use avoiding techniques until he'll see an opening to earbend Palpatine into immobility. I doubt he'll get to try energybending before then.

[Absol197]

then, I don't know the answer...
my best guess is that ..if they go for a in-your-face scuffle instead of long range where Aang has the advantage, Palpatine might have the upper hand in the initial stages of the fight, especially if he can surprise Aang. If however he doesn't get the kill in quickly, Aang will size him up, and use avoiding techniques until he'll see an opening to earbend Palpatine into immobility. I doubt he'll get to try energybending before then.

Earbending, the most powerful kind of bending of them all! :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

I prefer jointbending, myself.

Y'know, it's a good thing we didn't try to pit Darth Vader in this matchup. All those delightful cybernetics available to metalbend...

[dehro]

Earbending, the most powerful kind of bending of them all! :smallbiggrin:

it's true..my mother could scold the Avatar into submission

[kpenguin]

it's true..my mother could scold the Avatar into submission

This is why Katara is the most powerful bender in the Avatarverse.

[pffh]

This is why Katara is the most powerful bender in the Avatarverse.

But she's a tearbender not an earbender.

[Liffguard]

Earbending, the most powerful kind of bending of them all! :smallbiggrin:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, bend me your ears...

[Aotrs Commander]

Friends, Romans, countrymen, bend me your ears...

*snort*

Pahahahahahaha!

[lt_murgen]

Rthe actual fight is a 1v1 mano-a-mano battle between Palpatine and Aang. Nor can he do things like summon Force storms, because his power is equivalent to what he was capable of in Revenge of the Sith.

But, to be far, we are comparing a protagonist with major screen time to an antagonist who (in ROTS) gets very little time. It hard to say what he is and isn't capable (e.g. force storms). For that matter, it is canon that Palpatine was employing battle meditation for the entire Imperial fleet and ground forces while doing everything he is seen on-screen doing. That argues for some serious ability.

I guess all I was trying to illustrate in my first example is that Palps never gives ANYONE a straight-up fight unless he absolutely has to. In a sense, if he is fighting, he has already lost.

[hamishspence]

For that matter, it is canon that Palpatine was employing battle meditation for the entire Imperial fleet and ground forces while doing everything he is seen on-screen doing. That argues for some serious ability.

Eventually they retconned this slightly- while battle meditation was being done at Endor, it was being done by one of the Grand Admirals (Declann?) rather than Palpatine himself.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nial_Declann

Though that might have been "intense meditation" with Palpatine simply boosting the "fighting spirit" of everyone in the armed forces but that Grand Admiral handling the battles in this case- Since Palpatine's not a military strategist.

[Xondoure]

But, to be far, we are comparing a protagonist with major screen time to an antagonist who (in ROTS) gets very little time. It hard to say what he is and isn't capable (e.g. force storms). For that matter, it is canon that Palpatine was employing battle meditation for the entire Imperial fleet and ground forces while doing everything he is seen on-screen doing. That argues for some serious ability.

I guess all I was trying to illustrate in my first example is that Palps never gives ANYONE a straight-up fight unless he absolutely has to. In a sense, if he is fighting, he has already lost.

Right and he was so focused on battle meditation that when his own life was at risk he... didn't do anything different than he was already doing. Man that's impressive! :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

The Battle Meditation concept was originally brought in by Zahn to explain why the Empire did so badly at Endor despite vastly outnumbering the Rebels- when Palpatine died all the "fight" went out of their forces.

[Dr.Epic]

Aang hands down. Aang can deflect the Emperor's most powerful attack. Not to mention Aang is physically a better fighter and he may have the upper hand on supernatural powers too.

[Sotharsyl]

Aang:-"Ooh Mr. Palpatine what's that?"
Palpatine:-"Ah this is just a bit of technology from back home, it's called a lightsaber it hum provides a light show a funny little toy really."
Aang:-"Can I try it out?"
Palpatine:-"Of course my boy just be careful not to poke your eyes out with it, hold it in front of your face, a little further careful about the eyes but not too back you're looking into the hole right? Ok then press the button!"

And Palpatine conquered a new planet reinforced his legions with Earth and Fire Benders.
The Rebellion seeing the vast numbers of force users arrayed against them surrendered and peace finally arrived to the galaxi.

[The Glyphstone]

Aang:-"Ooh Mr. Palpatine what's that?"
Palpatine:-"Ah this is just a bit of technology from back home, it's called a lightsaber it hum provides a light show a funny little toy really."
Aang:-"Can I try it out?"
Palpatine:-"Of course my boy just be careful not to poke your eyes out with it, hold it in front of your face, a little further careful about the eyes but not too back you're looking into the hole right? Ok then press the button!"

And Palpatine conquered a new planet reinforced his legions with Earth and Fire Benders.
The Rebellion seeing the vast numbers of force users arrayed against them surrendered and peace finally arrived to the galaxi.

...we're discussing the animated show Aang, not the live-action movie Aang.:smallbiggrin:

[Lord Seth]

All they have to do is use bloodbending to screw over Palpatine's midichlorians.

[Sith_Happens]

All they have to do is use bloodbending to screw over Palpatine's midichlorians.

Something tells me that Katara wouldn't have ever taught anyone that particular trick.

[Silva Stormrage]

Something tells me that Katara wouldn't have ever taught anyone that particular trick.

Well its not apparently that difficult to grasp... She never practices it she just uses it successfully on the first attempt... And I think the avatar state would be able to duplicate the effects of a full moon as well so Aang wouldn't even need the full moon to use it.

[VanBuren]

Well its not apparently that difficult to grasp... She never practices it she just uses it successfully on the first attempt... And I think the avatar state would be able to duplicate the effects of a full moon as well so Aang wouldn't even need the full moon to use it.

Honestly? I kind of got the impression that the Avatar could master the base forms of all the elemental bending, but I never got the impression that he'd be able to Bloodbend or Metalbend.

That's even if we assume that blood bending would affect midi-chlorians... which I'm not even remotely willing to concede.

[Xondoure]

Of course they could. Metal and blood are natural extensions. It would just take more time than we've seen given to an avatar (on screen)

[Silva Stormrage]

Of course they could. Metal and blood are natural extensions. It would just take more time than we've seen given to an avatar (on screen)

Especially since the reason the avatar is such a natural genius at the elemental bending is because his past lives have done it a thousand times before. Without his past lives having experienced bloodbending or metal bending it would be much more difficult for him to learn.

[Xondoure]

Especially since the reason the avatar is such a natural genius at the elemental bending is because his past lives have done it a thousand times before. Without his past lives having experienced bloodbending or metal bending it would be much more difficult for him to learn.

Her. We are talking about Korra (at least until the next cycle.) Edit: Wait, forgot which thread I was on. Yes he, this is Aang. :smallredface: