When did Elan stop being able to wear armor?

[AutomatedTeller]

I ask, because in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)comic, Elan says that armor interferes with his class abilities, but in the first comic, the upgrade gives him a chainmail shirt.

Was it the Dashing Swordsman?

[Morty]

It was most likely the Dashing Swordsman, yes. Light armour doesn't interfere with any of the bard's abilities and he wore a chain shirt right until being imprisoned and subsequently becoming a Dashing Swordsman.

[Lothston]

It was most likely the Dashing Swordsman, yes. Light armour doesn't interfere with any of the bard's abilities and he wore a chain shirt right until being imprisoned and subsequently becoming a Dashing Swordsman.

The chain shirt may simply be too restrictive on Dexterity and Dex-related skills. If Elan has a sky-high Dexterity - which becomes doubly important if Dashing Swordsman adds it to attack and/or damage - then even a magical chain shirt might be too restrictive, so he prefers to wear regular clothing and keep his full Dex bonus.

[aduboo29]

Doesn't the Dashing Swordsman have more to do with adding his charisma to his attack rolls? I'm not expert, but I think something along those lines was said.

It may simply be that wearing armour is less "dramatic", after all, flair and drama are a big part of the Dashing Swordsman gimmick.

[Agnostik]

Dashing Swordsman is probably based on (or at least reminiscent of) the existing Duelist PRC with INT swapped for CHA and a few other alterations. Duelists may use most of their abilities only when they're not wearing armor, so that's probably why I never really questioned the fact that Elan ditched his chain shirt.

[Balain]

It was stated that the dashing swordsman adds charisma to damage. There still could be armour restrictions to the class. Maybe not wearing armour or light armour gives you a bonus to AC or something.

[Dr.Epic]

Was it the Dashing Swordsman?

Most likely. I think it would make sense for the PrC.

[Forikroder]

how many heros wear armour? armour is for nameless soldiers and side kicks, all the good heros dont wear armour

Edward Elric?
Monkey D Luffy?
main character in Princess Bride? (god how did i forget his name ><)
Ichigo Kurosaki?
Robin hood?
Superman?
Hulk?
Spiderman?

if you wear armour as a hero it has to be the most badass armour possible like Iron Man or Gatts it has to be such cool badass armour that everyone who sees it goes "woa whos the badass in that badass armour?"

[Cizak]

how many heros wear armour? armour is for nameless soldiers and side kicks, all the good heros dont wear armour

Edward Elric?
Monkey D Luffy?
main character in Princess Bride? (god how did i forget his name ><)
Ichigo Kurosaki?
Robin hood?
Superman?
Hulk?
Spiderman?

if you wear armour as a hero it has to be the most badass armour possible like Iron Man or Gatts it has to be such cool badass armour that everyone who sees it goes "woa whos the badass in that badass armour?"

Poor Roy. :smalltongue:

[LadyFoxfire]

main character in Princess Bride? (god how did i forget his name ><)



His name is Westley, or Dread Pirate Roberts if you prefer.

[Demonicbunny]

There are basically only four allowed looks for a Dashing Swordsman.

The Masked Avenger
Look: Small mask covering the eyes, but not the lower part of the face (and definitely not the obligatory pencil moustache), probably some kind of hat, wide cloth belt (black or red), wide poofy pants, knee-high boots.
Known Masked Avengers: Dread Pirate Roberts, Zorro etc

The Musketeer
Look: Big cool hat (preferably with feather), thigh-high boots. Baldric. Add tabard as necessary. Otherwise swashbuckling shirt and vest (always buttoned)
Known examples: The three musketeers, D'Artagnan, Puss-in-Boots

The Pirate
Look: Pirate hat, pirate longcoat, pirate boots. Swashbuckling shirt.
Known Examples: Julio Scoundrél, Captain Jack Sparrow, Most pirates.

The Swashbuckler (aka The Inigo Montoya)
Look: Vest (mostly unbuttoned, can be buttoned at times but not through swashbucklers entire career), Swashbuckler shirt (preferably white), knee-high boots
Known Examples: Elan, Inigo Montoya

Some dashing swordsmen, like Will from Pirates of the Caribbean alternate between several of the allowed looks (in Wills case, Musketeer, Pirate and The Swashbuckler).


P.S: Do not confuse with similar PrCs like Jedi or Samurai Sword Saint.

[Peelee]

The Swashbuckler (aka The Inigo Montoya)
Look: Vest (mostly unbuttoned, can be buttoned at times but not through swashbucklers entire career), Swashbuckler shirt (preferably white), knee-high boots
Known Examples: Elan, Inigo Montoya

No Han Solo? I am disappoint.

[Demonicbunny]

No Han Solo? I am disappoint.

Well, the list isn't exhaustive. But you know. No sword. Even if he does borrow heavily in terms of style and abilities.

[JCarter426]

Superman?
Superman's skin is his armor. :smalltongue:

(Also there have been a few instances of Superman or an alternate version of Superman wearing armor.)

[Murray]

While CHA is the primary damage modifier, I bet DEX is a lot more important with the acrobatic entrances that seem to be heavily associated with the prestige class. For all we know, a dramatic entrance boosts the Dashing Swordsman's abilities or lowers the abilities of the Dashing Swordsman's foes.

[Forikroder]

While CHA is the primary damage modifier, I bet DEX is a lot more important with the acrobatic entrances that seem to be heavily associated with the prestige class. For all we know, a dramatic entrance boosts the Dashing Swordsman's abilities or lowers the abilities of the Dashing Swordsman's foes.

getting a good dramatic entrance would be more about wis or cha then dex and since Elan was a bard he probably has terrible dex especially considering his terrible move silently

[Murray]

getting a good dramatic entrance would be more about wis or cha then dex and since Elan was a bard he probably has terrible dex especially considering his terrible move silently

That's an interesting notion. With the direction his character development has been going, I've thought that Elan may have brought his WIS up high enough to eliminate negative modifiers, making him much more clever while still being INTellectually challenged. And looking at the armor stats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions) again, unless Dashing Swordsman improves movement, there may not be any reason he can't still be wearing leather armor. So my excuse about DEX-based acrobatics may not be correct.

[Sith_Happens]

His name is Westley, or Dread Pirate Roberts if you prefer.

On a related note, if it turns out that Westley wasn't the inspiration for the Dashing Swordsman class, then I will eat my hat. DISCLAIMER: I am not wearing a hat.

[Aurenthal]

Maybe it's because he already receives plot armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) and looks way cooler whithout a chainshirt. Also, plot armor could be one of the abilities of the Dashing Swordsman.

[ti'esar]

Well, the list isn't exhaustive. But you know. No sword. Even if he does borrow heavily in terms of style and abilities.

Besides, he's pretty much a variant on the Swashbuckler with that vest, anyway.

[factotum]

On a related note, if it turns out that Westley wasn't the inspiration for the Dashing Swordsman class, then I will eat my hat. DISCLAIMER: I am not wearing a hat.

There have been Dashing Swordsman-alikes since a LONG time before Westley turned up--Errol Flynn's first role in "Captain Blood" (1935) was pretty much the archetype for this sort of thing!

[Forikroder]

There have been Dashing Swordsman-alikes since a LONG time before Westley turned up--Errol Flynn's first role in "Captain Blood" (1935) was pretty much the archetype for this sort of thing!

very few singular heros show all the characteristics elan has demonstrated, the dashing swordsman is realyl taking parts from pretty much every hero and every thing they have in common and putting them all into one class

i would be surprised if they did have an ability that added there Cha to there armour/resistances called plot armour though

[Morquard]

Maybe it's because he already receives plot armor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor) and looks way cooler whithout a chainshirt. Also, plot armor could be one of the abilities of the Dashing Swordsman.
Do you even know what "plot armor" is?

[ti'esar]

Do you even know what "plot armor" is?

Actually, I can totally see "plot armor" as a Dashing Swordsman class feature that gives an AC bonus or something.

[Morquard]

Actually, I can totally see "plot armor" as a Dashing Swordsman class feature that gives an AC bonus or something.
I don't disagree that it would be a totally cool name for a Dashing Swordsman class feature and would fit a class that lives from being genre-savy, but in the end an AC bonus is not the same as the "plot armor" that some people like to throw at everything.

[Marlowe]

Good thing too. He that lives by the plot armour dies by the sword of dramatic necessity, and will be remembered only by the continuity wraiths that haunt the foothills of narrative under the shadow of the of the mountains of authorial intent.

It's not something you can rely on anyway. Unless the show/strip/book/movie is named after you.

[Zombimode]

how many heros wear armour?

Commander Shepard
Gordon Freeman
Aragorn
Parson Gotti
Balian (from Kingdom of Heaven)
Ahmad Ibn Fadlān (from 13th Warrior)
Almost every warrior-like protagonist in video games (too many to list)

Generally people wear armor when it makes sense to do so. There are only few cases were armor is not worn for stylistic purposes. And those stories tend to verge on the more unserious side.
So yes, its perfectly plausible that the Dashing Swordman has some class features that dont work well with armor.

[LuPuWei]

There are basically only four allowed looks for a Dashing Swordsman.

The Masked Avenger
Look: Small mask covering the eyes, but not the lower part of the face (and definitely not the obligatory pencil moustache), probably some kind of hat, wide cloth belt (black or red), wide poofy pants, knee-high boots.
Known Masked Avengers: Dread Pirate Roberts, Zorro etc

The Musketeer
Look: Big cool hat (preferably with feather), thigh-high boots. Baldric. Add tabard as necessary. Otherwise swashbuckling shirt and vest (always buttoned)
Known examples: The three musketeers, D'Artagnan, Puss-in-Boots

The Pirate
Look: Pirate hat, pirate longcoat, pirate boots. Swashbuckling shirt.
Known Examples: Julio Scoundrél, Captain Jack Sparrow, Most pirates.

The Swashbuckler (aka The Inigo Montoya)
Look: Vest (mostly unbuttoned, can be buttoned at times but not through swashbucklers entire career), Swashbuckler shirt (preferably white), knee-high boots
Known Examples: Elan, Inigo Montoya

Some dashing swordsmen, like Will from Pirates of the Caribbean alternate between several of the allowed looks (in Wills case, Musketeer, Pirate and The Swashbuckler).


P.S: Do not confuse with similar PrCs like Jedi or Samurai Sword Saint.

You forgot the Errol Flynn (no mask, no boots, just a simple hat and a belt to hang a sword from... a tendency to swing from thing during battle ever present. eg Errol Flynn, Peter Pan, etc)

[Forikroder]

Commander Shepard
Gordon Freeman
Aragorn
Parson Gotti
Balian (from Kingdom of Heaven)
Ahmad Ibn Fadlān (from 13th Warrior)
Almost every warrior-like protagonist in video games (too many to list)

Generally people wear armor when it makes sense to do so. There are only few cases were armor is not worn for stylistic purposes. And those stories tend to verge on the more unserious side.
So yes, its perfectly plausible that the Dashing Swordman has some class features that dont work well with armor.

know what all those people have in common? absolutely nothing with the dashing swordsman at all there are jsut generic warriors who ascend to be a hero due to being badass warriors not a hero that shows hes a badass warrior, theres a difference

the Hero from the start has his job to do and normally leaves a normal life to do the job he takes the initiative

the badass warrior who becomes a hero is a part of an army or organization who sends him into battle and is just following orders

when link leaves Kokiri village to save the world thats him being a hero noone ever ordered him to do it he did it because hes a badass

when Master Chief slaughters covenant forces, hes not doing it because hes a badass hero who saw what was wrong with the world and did his whole one man army deal he did it because he was a soldier and that was his job

thats the difference between a badass hero and a badass who becomes a hero

[Umberhulk]

Ahmad Ibn Fadlān (from 13th Warrior)

I was beginning to think I was the only person who watched that movie. What a relief.

[Demonicbunny]

Actually Errol Flynn tended to be a Swashbuckler or Musketeer in the movies where he's a Dashing Swordsman.
Errol Flynn in:
Robin Hood = Swashbuckler (including knee-high boots and vest)
Adventures of Don Juan = Swashbuckler (including vest and knee-high boots)
Against All Flags = Musketeer
Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk etc = He's NOT PUNNING! A pun-less swordfighter is not a dashing swordsman!


Peter Pan isn't a dashing swordsman. He's a flying trickster.

[hoff]

It's quite probable that Elan has a high dex and weapon finesse talent. So when he got the dashing swordsman PrC he figured it would be better to not wear armor since he will be going into meele more often

[Forikroder]

It's quite probable that Elan has a high dex and weapon finesse talent. So when he got the dashing swordsman PrC he figured it would be better to not wear armor since he will be going into meele more often

unless i just did the mother of all brain farts since he got a 9 on his move silently, with +5 from the boots, even assuming he rolled a 1 his max dex possible is +3

he could ahve also rolled a 4 and ahve no dex modifier

[Math_Mage]

Good thing too. He that lives by the plot armour dies by the sword of dramatic necessity, and will be remembered only by the continuity wraiths that haunt the foothills of narrative under the shadow of the mountains of authorial intent.

This needs to be sigged. But my sig is full. Quick, someone sig this before I erase mine just to find a place for this beautiful comment.

[Valyrian]

know what all those people have in common? absolutely nothing with the dashing swordsman at all there are jsut generic warriors who ascend to be a hero due to being badass warriors not a hero that shows hes a badass warrior, theres a difference
So your argument is that heroes don't wear armor because if they wear armor they are not heroes because heroes don't wear armor?

[raymundo]

So your argument is that heroes don't wear armor because if they wear armor they are not heroes because heroes don't wear armor?

Seems legit to me.

[Forikroder]

So your argument is that heroes don't wear armor because if they wear armor they are not heroes because heroes don't wear armor?

no because theres so naturally badass that armour just falls of them when they try to put it on

people look more badass without armour so when trying to make someone look cool you either ahve to give them really badass armour or no armour (or very limited armour like just one shoulder guard or a couple small pieces of armour)

plus since as i mentioned, Heros (not warriors turned heros) are generally shown to be some regular joe before going out to save the world so by not draqing him in an entire set of full plate it reinforces his image as some regular guy doing extraordinary things

[dps]

There have been Dashing Swordsman-alikes since a LONG time before Westley turned up--Errol Flynn's first role in "Captain Blood" (1935) was pretty much the archetype for this sort of thing!

Go back further than Errol Flynn--he was just playing the same type of character that Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. had played 20-some years earlier. And while Fairbanks might have been the first notable example of the type in film, I'm pretty sure it existed in fiction before there were movies.

[Samiel_Fronsac]

I was beginning to think I was the only person who watched that movie. What a relief.

What are you talking about?

That movie is made of pure awesomeness!

Vikings (plus Arab dude) Vs Neanderthals from Hell?

Really cool.

[Deepbluediver]

Actually, I can totally see "plot armor" as a Dashing Swordsman class feature that gives an AC bonus or something.

This seems the most likely option to me, something similar to the monk's AC bonus (which is never really explained, fluff-wise).

[danielmayer]

Captain Blood, The Sea Hawk etc = He's NOT PUNNING! A pun-less swordfighter is not a dashing swordsman!


Right!
The only movie with two Dashing swordmans is "Court Jester" with Danny Kaye. In the final and most dramatic duel between good and evil it's the puns who do the fight! From both ;)

[Querzis]

Commander Shepard
Gordon Freeman
Aragorn
Parson Gotti
Balian (from Kingdom of Heaven)
Ahmad Ibn Fadlān (from 13th Warrior)
Almost every warrior-like protagonist in video games (too many to list)

Generally people wear armor when it makes sense to do so. There are only few cases were armor is not worn for stylistic purposes. And those stories tend to verge on the more unserious side.
So yes, its perfectly plausible that the Dashing Swordman has some class features that dont work well with armor.

Yes but those guys dont fit the Dashing Swordsman archetype, heroes who relies on charisma, drama, tricks, surprises, grand entrance, determination, improvisation, blind luck and one-liners most definitly dont wear armors. What you are describing is the Captain or the Super-Soldier archetype, totally different. Those definitly usually wear armor since they are practical heroes but no Dashing Swordsman would ever wear one, its just not as dramatic as going into a fight with cool looking clothes.

By the way, Han Solo is totally a Dashing Swordsman, doesnt matter if he has a laser instead of a sword, its just a name guys. Plenty of Sci-Fi heroes would be Dashing Swordsman.


Poor Roy. :smalltongue:

Dont worry about Roy, hes the Captain, his leadership is what make him awesome, not his sense of drama...say, ever noticed that in every work of fiction where a Captain is the hero, any Dashing Swordsman will be just the plucky comic relief while in every work where Dashing Swordsman are the heroes, the Captain end up being the butt of all jokes (or end up dead)?

[Roland Itiative]

Yes but those guys dont fit the Dashing Swordsman archetype, heroes who relies on charisma, drama, tricks, surprises, grand entrance, determination, improvisation, blind luck and one-liners most definitly dont wear armors. What you are describing is the Captain or the Super-Soldier archetype, totally different. Those definitly usually wear armor since they are practical heroes but no Dashing Swordsman would ever wear one, its just not as dramatic as going into a fight with cool looking clothes.

I don't think anyone is trying to say those guys fit the "Dashing Swordman" archetype. It's just that Forikroder is claiming no hero wears armour, which clearly isn't true.

[Forikroder]

I don't think anyone is trying to say those guys fit the "Dashing Swordman" archetype. It's just that Forikroder is claiming no hero wears armour, which clearly isn't true.

it depends on your definition of a hero i consider someone like Link to be a true hero but dont see master chief as a true hero

imo it takes alot more then jsut being a badass super soldier with the most bleeding edge tech available to be a hero

[Corsair]

I don't know why I'm indulging here, but I'd like to hear an explanation for how Master Chief -isn't- a hero. You sound like he's incapable of being a hero because he has advanced technology and is naturally pretty powerful.

[ti'esar]

I don't know why I'm indulging here, but I'd like to hear an explanation for how Master Chief -isn't- a hero. You sound like he's incapable of being a hero because he has advanced technology and is naturally pretty powerful.

That could be it right there - while I wouldn't argue having lots of fancy toys precludes a character from being a hero outright, I've seen the argument that the more advantages a hero has, the less heroic s/he is.

I don't agree with it, but it's not an unheard of position.

[Sutremaine]

armour is for nameless soldiers and side kicks, all the good heros dont wear armour

Edward Elric?
Monkey D Luffy?
main character in Princess Bride? (god how did i forget his name ><)
Ichigo Kurosaki?
Robin hood?
Superman?
Hulk?
Spiderman?

Edward Elric has a mechanical arm that attracts blows like a chainmail bikini does, and several of the others are made of tougher stuff than any armour they could pick up.

[Forikroder]

Edward Elric has a mechanical arm that attracts blows like a chainmail bikini does, and several of the others are made of tougher stuff than any armour they could pick up.

the important part isnt how tough they are the important part is they arent wearing armour


That could be it right there - while I wouldn't argue having lots of fancy toys precludes a character from being a hero outright, I've seen the argument that the more advantages a hero has, the less heroic s/he is.

I don't agree with it, but it's not an unheard of position.

nailed it, the kid who leaves his home alone in order to save the world is infinitely more heroic then the super soldier following orders

i dont think im quite getting across the distinction between a hero and a super soldier who does heroic deeds

[ChowGuy]

*cough* Batman *cough*

Although some might quibble over whether he's a "hero" or not, without his toys (and armor) where would he be?

[Concept]

His name is Westley, or Dread Pirate Roberts if you prefer.

Farm Boy


Right!
The only movie with two Dashing swordmans is "Court Jester" with Danny Kaye. In the final and most dramatic duel between good and evil it's the puns who do the fight! From both ;)

Loved it! Especially the dialog right before the joust.

[Marlowe]

I love it that somebody used Fullmetal Alchemist as an example of heroes not wearing armour when one of the heroes is nothing but a suit of armour.:smallbiggrin:

Also, since it's a magitek 1930's setting, it would be very weird if more people did.

[Forikroder]

I love it that somebody used Fullmetal Alchemist as an example of heroes not wearing armour when one of the heroes is nothing but a suit of armour.

only the main character (Edward) can be the hero


*cough* Batman *cough*

Although some might quibble over whether he's a "hero" or not, without his toys (and armor) where would he be?

ya he wears armour but its pretty light armour, it doesnt do much more then blocking bullets its not like master chief who can survive a tank shot, and his armour doesnt ahve any fancy radars or targetting systems its all him he jsut has a badass kelvar vest

hero is more in the intent then the actual actions, batmans a hero because he went out of his way to do all the badass stuff he does doesnt amtter how well he does

[Querzis]

Ok really Fori, I dont even know if you're being serious at this point. For starter, being naturally talented (like, for example, being one of the most naturally gifted alchemist of all time, being born on frigging Krypton or being bit by a spider) definitly doesnt make you more heroic then a guy who has to relies on weapons or armor to fill up the gap. And we have already given you dozen of examples of heroes wearing armor, Dashing Swordsman still definitly dont wear armor but that doesnt suddenly make the ones who wear armor less heroic.

And seriously, comparatively, Batman got a lot more gadgets, armor and protection then Master Chief. MC suit isnt really better then the armors of his enemies (and compared to Brute and Elites commander, is downright useless) while Batman got access to litterally the best technology in the world. And yes, Batman does have targeting systems and stuff in his armor while I have no idea why you'd think MC could survive a tank blast unless you're always playing on the easiest difficulty...Hell, even on easy, I'm pretty damn sure a wraith would still one-shot you. Oh and by the way with this logic:


only the main character (Edward) can be the hero

Then Elan isnt a hero anyway.

[PallElendro]

Commander Shepard
Gordon Freeman
Aragorn
Parson Gotti
Balian (from Kingdom of Heaven)
Ahmad Ibn Fadlān (from 13th Warrior)
Almost every warrior-like protagonist in video games (too many to list)

Master Chief. Iron Man. Samus Aran. The Rookie. Kid that wears a box with crayon buttons.

[Smolder]

only the main character (Edward) can be the hero



Who's the main character in OotS? Are you going to claim that Roy is the only hero in the story? Clearly, O-chul is not heroic, because he occupies such a small part of the story.

[Forikroder]

Who's the main character in OotS? Are you going to claim that Roy is the only hero in the story? Clearly, O-chul is not heroic, because he occupies such a small part of the story.

yes Roy is the only hero, hes the only one who saw what was wrong and went out to fix it

the only person who deserves to be called a Hero is someone who sees wahts wrong with and moves out on his own using his own two hands to fix it, Roy gathered the Order to stop Xykon, the original intent may not have been too heroic but the real turning point that solidified him as a hero is Azure city where he kept at it not because he had to, not because he was being ordered or hired to but because it was his responsibility jsut because noone else would take responsibility

thats what makes a Hero, not being at the right palce at the right time and going with the flow, making your own flow with your own two hands, Link did it when he left Kokori forest, Edward did it when he stayhed in Amestris despite how easily he could ahve taken the people he loved and escaped, Batman did it when he he gave up the plushy life of a multi billion dollar palyboy to fight crime superman did it when he used his near god like powers to fight crime instead of take over the world

and i really hope people stop talking about the armor thing that was mainly jsut a joke

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Yes, Roy is the only hero, he's the only one who saw what was wrong and went out to fix it.

The only person who deserves to be called a Hero is someone who sees what's wrong and moves out on his own using his own two hands to fix it. Roy gathered the Order to stop Xykon, the original intent may not have been too heroic but the real turning point that solidified him as a hero is Azure city where he kept at it not because he had to, not because he was being ordered or hired to but because it was his responsibility just because no one else would take responsibility

That's what makes a Hero, not being at the right place at the right time and going with the flow: making your own flow with your own two hands. Link did it when he left Kokori forest, Edward did it when he stayed in Amestris despite how easily he could have taken the people he loved and escaped, Batman did it when he he gave up the plushy life of a multi-billion dollar playboy to fight crime, and superman did it when he used his near god-like powers to fight crime instead of take over the world.

And I really hope people stop talking about the armor thing; that was mainly just a joke.Sorry for the edits, I don't know why I did that >.>
I disagree with you completely.

A story is not limited to only one Hero. The protagonists are all, in some way, heroes. Belkar's even a hero for opposing the side of evil. They're all taking a heroic journey together.

[CletusMusashi]

Puppetry is a Dexterity-based skill.
Banjo, in order to become a real god, requires an unencumbered High Puppeteer.
Therefore, Banjo has obviously forbidden Elan to wear armor.

[Forikroder]

Sorry for the edits, I don't know why I did that >.>
I disagree with you completely.

A story is not limited to only one Hero. The protagonists are all, in some way, heroes. Belkar's even a hero for opposing the side of evil. They're all taking a heroic journey together.

no Belkar is not a hero, he is nowhere close to being a hero and in no way has done anything to qualify him as a hero

fighting evil is not enough to be a hero in taht case REdcloak is a hero by killing Tsukiko and giveing Xykon the fake Phylactery

[Smolder]

yes Roy is the only hero, hes the only one who saw what was wrong and went out to fix it

the only person who deserves to be called a Hero is someone who sees wahts wrong with and moves out on his own using his own two hands to fix it, Roy gathered the Order to stop Xykon, the original intent may not have been too heroic but the real turning point that solidified him as a hero is Azure city where he kept at it not because he had to, not because he was being ordered or hired to but because it was his responsibility jsut because noone else would take responsibility


I think the word you're looking for is 'protagonist', the person at the center of the story. But the protagonist need not be a hero (Belkar is a prime example, and even Showtime's anti-hero Dexter is occasionally heroic). Nor are heroics limited to protagonists.

O-chul suffered immeasurably and then when given the chance to escape he risked his life to snag Xykon's phylactery instead. I think that still matches all of your requirements for a Hero without being anything close to the main character. O-chul just never had a character arc. He was always a selfless paladin. We didn't see his journey to become that.

[ti'esar]

We're probably going to, though.

[Kish]

the important part isnt how tough they are the important part is they arent wearing armour
...Are you under the impression Roy doesn't wear armor?

[Roland Itiative]

yes Roy is the only hero, hes the only one who saw what was wrong and went out to fix it

the only person who deserves to be called a Hero is someone who sees wahts wrong with and moves out on his own using his own two hands to fix it, Roy gathered the Order to stop Xykon, the original intent may not have been too heroic but the real turning point that solidified him as a hero is Azure city where he kept at it not because he had to, not because he was being ordered or hired to but because it was his responsibility jsut because noone else would take responsibility

thats what makes a Hero, not being at the right palce at the right time and going with the flow, making your own flow with your own two hands, Link did it when he left Kokori forest, Edward did it when he stayhed in Amestris despite how easily he could ahve taken the people he loved and escaped, Batman did it when he he gave up the plushy life of a multi billion dollar palyboy to fight crime superman did it when he used his near god like powers to fight crime instead of take over the world
Now that's a better (if not yet perfect) definition for hero. One that has nothing to do with armour. In fact, as pointed above, Roy does wear armour.

And so do three of the characters named "Link" in The Legend of Zelda, by the way.

[Marlowe]

"Near God Like Powers"..."Batman".....:smalleek:

The ignore button is a wonderful thing.

[Forikroder]

I think the word you're looking for is 'protagonist', the person at the center of the story. But the protagonist need not be a hero (Belkar is a prime example, and even Showtime's anti-hero Dexter is occasionally heroic). Nor are heroics limited to protagonists.

O-chul suffered immeasurably and then when given the chance to escape he risked his life to snag Xykon's phylactery instead. I think that still matches all of your requirements for a Hero without being anything close to the main character. O-chul just never had a character arc. He was always a selfless paladin. We didn't see his journey to become that.

no that was Ochul doing something Heroic, not him being a hero, if he was a Hero he wouldnt ahve sat under Shojos thumb for whos knows how long while shojo trampled over his honour and the whole world went to ****


Now that's a better (if not yet perfect) definition for hero. One that has nothing to do with armour. In fact, as pointed above, Roy does wear armour.

And so do three of the characters named "Link" in The Legend of Zelda, by the way.

okay some people dont seem to understand jokes >.>

[Kalrany]

no that was Ochul doing something Heroic, not him being a hero, if he was a Hero he wouldnt ahve sat under Shojos thumb for whos knows how long while shojo trampled over his honour and the whole world went to ****

Some people could argue that it was part of his hero journey. Just saying... But I do agree that there is a difference between being a hero and doing heroic things.

[Smolder]

no that was Ochul doing something Heroic, not him being a hero, if he was a Hero he wouldnt ahve sat under Shojos thumb for whos knows how long while shojo trampled over his honour and the whole world went to ...

That depends on whether Ochul should have known Shojo's true alignment and intentions or not (Hinjo didn't), and whether he would have opposed them immediately (as Hinjo reflexively did). I suspect the outcome would have been similar.

So the Hero must have always been Hero? Doesn't that contradict the need for a heroic journey? Few of the best heroes knew what they were getting themselves into. Luke Skywalker starts out a farmer, Peter Parker starts out a self-absorbed teenager, and Tony Stark starts out as a womanizing alcohalic arms-dealer. Without that initial state of non-heroism, there is no character growth. I think Roy's growth is in his motivation, evolving from pleasing his father to saving the world.

Counterexample: Superman. I hate Superman. Have since I was a kid. Why?
1) He's invincible, which removes all suspence, drama or chance of failure
2) Every story must inevitably include kryptonite, a hackneyed plot device required to provide any drama at all.
3) He didn't have to do anything to earn his power
4) By virtue of being the biggest kid on the block, he effectively bullies everyone else into good-behavior.
5) Claims he never lies, yet constantly deceives everyone around him (especially loved ones)

[Forikroder]

That depends on whether Ochul should have known Shojo's true alignment and intentions or not (Shinjo didn't), and whether he would have opposed them immediately (as Shinjo reflexively did). I suspect the outcome would have been similar.

Hinjo*

Ochul did know that Shinjo had 3 people arrested without informing the magisatrate or giving them a trial and instructed to ahve there names unlisted so they could rot in prison

also Ochul seems to be kinda like Shojos personal assistant unlike Hinjo who doesnt spend all day near him


So the Hero must have always been Hero? Doesn't that contradict the need for a heroic journey? Few of the best heroes knew what they were getting themselves into. Luke Skywalker starts out a farmer, Peter Parker starts out a self-absorbed teenager, and Tony Stark starts out as a womanizing alcohalic arms-dealer. Without that initial state of non-heroism, there is no character growth. I think Roy's growth is in his motivation, evolving from pleasing his father to saving the world.

yes, sometimes its not obvious there going to be a hero from the first time there introduced but until they have shown to be a hero there not called a hero jsut because of hero potential

and Tonys not an alcoholic, its never shown hes an alcoholic not everyone who enjoys to have a drink is an alcoholic your only an alcoholic if you go everboard with it very often


4) By virtue of being the biggest kid on the block, he effectively bullies everyone else into good-behavior.

to be fair, thats true for like every hero ever, no hero tries to talk people out of being criminals and jsut leaves if that fails

[Querzis]

1) He's invincible, which removes all suspence, drama or chance of failure
2) Every story must inevitably include kryptonite, a hackneyed plot device required to provide any drama at all.
3) He didn't have to do anything to earn his power
4) By virtue of being the biggest kid on the block, he effectively bullies everyone else into good-behavior.
5) Claims he never lies, yet constantly deceives everyone around him (especially loved ones)

Good Superman stories are not about Superman. Good Superman stories are about the villains. Except for Darkseid, none of the Superman villains can stand up to him and they all know it. The best Superman stories are from the perspective of Lex Luthor trying to find a way to get rid of him or all about the effects his mere presence cause, the danger of people relying too much on him and stuff. Superman is usually more used as a symbol then anything else (and Clark Kent does see Superman as a symbol too). Hes not a hero as much as an ideal, Clark Kent isnt perfect but Superman must be (or at least, look like he is). Clark Kent lies but Superman cant. Superman goal is not to eradicate all crime, its to inspire people.

Also, while he can indeed be boring alone, in a team of heroes (like the Justice league) he bring up some very interesting situation...man I miss the Justice League cartoon.

[ti'esar]

Who in the world is Shinjo?

[martianmister]

Who in the world is Shinjo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyoshi_Shinjo