PO help with a ranged skirmisher

[Jigokuro]

Note: I'm my group's OPifier. I know a lot about 3.5 and tend to make my characters crazy strong for their tier by RAW. My currently DM, however, is a fan of, uh, ad hoc balancing. So to avoid getting nerfbatted to hell I'm now the OPifier for the whole party so I don't stand out to much.

A new person is joining our group now that is fairly new to the system and I told him upfront, 'just tell me what it is you want the char to actually do, and I'll come up with a combination of classes/feats/etc (whose names may not sound right) that will do that thing.'
He pretty much did that, but read a little more on classes/races than I'd've liked. He came up with the rather specific, 'catfolk scout with shot on the run and multishot' which I talked down into the idea of staying away with high speed and shooting lots of times for high (probably skirmish) damage.
Problem being I'm not terribly familiar with optimizing skirmish... or ranged combat. I've never thought either good enough to bother with.
So with that in mind, coming in mid-level 9, lets make him as good as possible, however little that may be for this idea.

Catfolk is actually a good choice for that, thinking on it. The LA can be bought off already, he'll just be lower into level 9.
Class starting is scout(->???) if we do go for the skirmish effect but he might end up some rogue/ranger/fighter(targeteer). UA's partial BAB/saves is in effect so multiclassing is extremely viable.
I really don't know ranged optimizing at all, no idea for feats/etc, or else I wouldn't be here. Can you give me a hand?
P.S. a little into the realm of TO is fine if needed for good power, the DM trusts me to the point he won't be checking my work for making practical sense. Things can just be refluffed as needed.

[Zjordan85]

Just for reference before more experienced helpers come along

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook

[spelacnar]

I'm a big fan of using Swift hunter in any ranged skirmish build. Start with Scout 4, then go into ranger, it lets your skirmish count against your favored enemies, so pick construct, undead, whatever, to ensure you are able to always use your skirmish damage.

I also like to dip into cleric for travel and knowledge domains and trade them out for travel and knowledge devotion. The turn attempts will help fuel your travel devotion throughout the day and allow you to get a full attack at the end. And the knowledge devotion maxed with the skill trick, collector of stories, allows you to start adding up damage on every attack.

One of my favorite builds was a dual hand crossbow swift hunter, i got lots of attacks each round by dual wielding, and added a ton of damage with skirmish. I used ranger to pick up my TWF feats and levels for my ranged feats.

Some of my feats included: improved skirmish for more skirmish damage, crossbow sniper + dead eye (from dragon compendium) for 1.5x agility to damage and better skirmish range!

It was a rather feat intensive build (and flaws weren't allowed) but I made it work. I skipped rapid reload and used a pair of quick loading hand crossbows.

[Ketiara]

I'm a big fan of using Swift hunter in any ranged skirmish build. Start with Scout 4, then go into ranger, it lets your skirmish count against your favored enemies, so pick construct, undead, whatever, to ensure you are able to always use your skirmish damage.

I also like to dip into cleric for travel and knowledge domains and trade them out for travel and knowledge devotion. The turn attempts will help fuel your travel devotion throughout the day and allow you to get a full attack at the end. And the knowledge devotion maxed with the skill trick, collector of stories, allows you to start adding up damage on every attack.

One of my favorite builds was a dual hand crossbow swift hunter, i got lots of attacks each round by dual wielding, and added a ton of damage with skirmish. I used ranger to pick up my TWF feats and levels for my ranged feats.

Some of my feats included: improved skirmish for more skirmish damage, crossbow sniper + dead eye (from dragon compendium) for 1.5x agility to damage and better skirmish range!

It was a rather feat intensive build (and flaws weren't allowed) but I made it work. I skipped rapid reload and used a pair of quick loading hand crossbows.

Im not knowledgeable about this stuff, but id love to play this kind of char, can you explain how this work?

[Flickerdart]

"Ranged" skirmishing doesn't really work because Skirmish has a range of 30 feet. The best help he can get is a solid frontline that will keep enemies pinned down while he can hammer at them.

[Aeryr]

He actually did pick a really good race for a good concept.

Go swift hunter, you can't go wrong with that.

Note that you might want to start with ranger, or at least delay a little the fourth level of scout so you can get swift hunter then and qualify for improved skirmish.

-Some things that he will want: ways to move at least 10 feet, those include but are not limited the following: A chronocharm of horizon walking (500 gp MIC), travel devotion (feat complete champion), the cyrian gliding boots (14k here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a)), martial study (sudden leap) (feat Tome of battle or item)

-Some ways of increasing his damage: Spliting bow (+3 Champions of ruin, it effectively will double it), gloves of the agile striking (+2D6 damage with skirmish, 2,200 MIC), skirmisher boots (+2 damage, extra attack 3,200 MIC), enemy spirit pouch (increases favored enemy bonuses 2,100 MIC), Greater Manyshot (feat, allows to apply precision damage to each arrow fired)

Since he wants manyshot he will be using a bow (it is not a feat for crossbows). The "best" cheap bow is probably an elvencraft (races of the wild) dragonbone (draconomicon) composite longbow. Elvencraft will allow him to threat at melee, since it counts as a quarterstaff, it will also allow him to twf if necessary, dragonbone adds maximum range to the bow (it might come handy later).

The starting objective should be to be able to grab swift hunter at character creation, since it is really that good. And if possible many shot, if possible even greater many shot. Other than that he mentioned that he wants shot on the run, that might be a short term objective, let him see how it works out being able to take 10 feet steps before heavily investing on shot on the run.

-Ranger 1 1st favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy, point blank shot
-Ranger 2 combat style (rapid shot)
-Ranger 3 endurance, precise shot
-Ranger 4 urban companion (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) or distracting attack (from PHB II if there is a rogue in the party) if it is a new player trading the spells for feats might be attractive to him that ACF can be found in the complete champion, overall if the spell compendium is allowed ranger spellcasting is so much better.
-Ranger 5 2nd favored enemy (constructs)
-Ranger 6 Improved combat style (many shot), greater many shot
-Scout 1 Skirmish +1D6, trapfinding
-Scout 2 battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
Scout 3 fast movement +10ft, skirmish (+1D6, +1AC), trackless step, swift hunter

That ends at level 9 having two of the "basic" things for a swift hunter build that attacks at range. Greater many shot and swift hunter. He can move and then shot a few arrows to different enemies. His skirmish damage at this level is +3D6 and he gets +2 AC for moving, he can apply this precision damage even to undead and constructs.

If flaws are allowed he does probably want travel devotion, and if he is dead set in getting shot on the run I recommend getting expeditious dodge (it's better than dodge, at least for him) and graving an armor of mobility (it's a +1 enhancement from MIC) at his next level, level 10 he will be able to either take improved skirmish (for +2D6 damage) or shot on the run with the bonus feat from scout.

After that is probably a better idea to progress as ranger. If he takes shot on the run he should take improved skirmish at 12th.

Ps. Urban companion is better than an animal companion since he loses 4 levels in scout and the urban companion has 3/4 it's master hit points. Note that it also works as a meatshield and a charge stopper for the squishy swift hunter.

Ps2. Note that a ranger can use wands of ranger spells without using umd, even before getting a spell of that level. He won't be able to do that if he trades his spellcasting for feats. Check bloodfreeze arrow it is broken (from champions of ruin).

Ps3. Technically manyshot and shot on the run don't work together, but it is normally forgotten or hand waved. If they certainly do not work travel devotion becomes more atractive and a dip in cleric is an option from the build above you should take out a level of ranger so manyshot and greater manyshot might be taken later and take a level of cleric (or cloistered cleric if BAB is not a big concern). Personally I like travel devotion (eats the turn undead checks) and celerity (+10 speed) domain for my swift hunter, knowledge devotion is always a nice extra but you might not have enough skill ranks to pull it off.

[Jigokuro]

Lots of things.

That was a great help, thanks. I have a few questions though.
If he does go with ways to move the 10ft without the move action, then wouldn't it be better to just go imp rapid shot and use full attacks? or is the idea swift movement->attack->move movement just to skip needing some feats?
Why recommend those 10ft step options and imp skirmish (which requires 20ft) together? I'd say it was just a slip, but both were pretty big points so maybe I'm missing something.

Just talked to DM, he actually isn't allowing SotR and Manyshot to work together ; Travel Devotion it is. Fortunately Flaws are allowed so the feats can still be met on time. Clr1/ranger5/scout3?

[Flickerdart]

Yes, Rapid Shot + some way to move is better than Manyshot - both in feat costs (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot vs Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Manyshot) and in AB (5 attacks at -2/-2/-7/-12/-17 vs 8 attacks at -8/-8/-8/-8).

[Aeryr]

That was a great help, thanks. I have a few questions though.
If he does go with ways to move the 10ft without the move action, then wouldn't it be better to just go imp rapid shot and use full attacks? or is the idea swift movement->attack->move movement just to skip needing some feats?
Why recommend those 10ft step options and imp skirmish (which requires 20ft) together? I'd say it was just a slip, but both were pretty big points so maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, most of the time. Some times you just will need more damage output. For example you might want to move 20 feet to get the extra damage of improved skirmish and then rapid shot doesn't cut it, but greater many shot saves the day. Note that the improved skirmish damage would apply to every arrow due to greater many shot. Of course, going with travel devotion and turn atempts to burn makes it much easier and much less necessary.

Also greater many shot is not extremely feat heavy for a swift hunter, since he gets the prerequisites as bonus feats.



Just talked to DM, he actually isn't allowing SotR and Manyshot to work together ; Travel Devotion it is. Fortunately Flaws are allowed so the feats can still be met on time. Clr1/ranger5/scout3?

Yep, that's good.

Making shot on the run not working just makes some feats open to go to other places, does the player enjoy hiding?

Okay, let's see how it pans out now.

-Cleric Travel devotion, celerity domain (or other domain)
-Ranger Rapid shot, track, endurance, favored enemies
-Scout Skirmish, trap finding and stuff

You can take point blank shot, precise shot and something 1 at level 1
At level 3 you can take something 2
At level 6 you can take something 3
At level 9 you can take swift hunter

Something 1 can be expeditious dodge, if he still wants to try the shot on the run route, it's probably not worth it.
Something 2 can be a martial maneuver cloack of deception is good for disappearing
Something 3 can then be a martial stance child of shadow is a great defensive stance for a swift hunter, you move every round so you get concealment. Add a ring of entropic deflection and an item that provides +5 movement speed (they can bee dirty cheap) for more silliness.


If you want more damage incarnum might be a good idea


Midnight dodge (counts as dodge)
Indigo strike (+4 to damage for every skirmish attack if you invest the esentia granted by this feat and midnight dodge)
Darkstalker (pretty damn useful)

If you liked darkstalker and want to be the best one hiding ever...

Iron will (otyugh hole is dirty)
Criminal background (choosing hide, it lets you take ten with hide, always and also makes you inmune to intimidate)
Darkstalker

Take into account that you can always get mobility with an armor enhancement, if you want shot on the run later.