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Xechon
2012-05-04, 07:43 PM
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWyglnt7tPn4zgaNbDK25ZXP1UE0o9u VTW-pSpErvcQ1WW-CyBhttps://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfqgaxCBi4Jmmxk14Lxs1r6I0ZRwl9C auaVBMxKOiCbXUb3Va9

This class was requested by Virdish for his campaign setting, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238404).

Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral. The cleric must also align to the side their deity is on, either Pantheon or Daemon.
Starting Age: Complex.
Hit Die: d6
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Words Per Day

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2| Prayers, Blessing 1, Aura, Divine Favor |5

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3| Domain 1 | 11

3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3| Blessing 2 | 18

4th|+3|+1|+1|+4| Domain Enhancement 1 | 26

5th|+3|+1|+1|+4| Domain 2 | 35

6th|+4|+2|+2|+5| Blessing 3 | 45

7th|+5|+2|+2|+5| | 56

8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6| Domain Enhancement 2 | 68

9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6| Blessing 4 | 81

10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7| Domain 3 | 95

11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7| | 110

12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8| Blessing 5, Domain Enhancement 3 | 126

13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8| | 143

14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9| | 161

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9| Blessing 6, Domain 4 | 180

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10| Domain Enhancement 4| 200

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10| | 221

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11| Blessing 7 | 243

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11| | 266

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12| Enlightenment, Domain 5, Domain Enhancement 5 | 290 |[/table]
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, and with light armor and light shields.

Prayers/Curses: A cleric is able to call on their god for help to bless her allies and curse those who oppose her. This acts as Divine wordcasting (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Wordcasting_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)), using the following words:

{table=head]Shape words
{table=head]Word|DC|Effect
Ayln|+0|Short Range, single target
Hand|-2|Melee touch attack, no somatic component
Burs|+2|15 ft. spread centered on you, only hits targets if you want it to
Sfirn|+1|5 ft. radius sphere around you, follows you, reflex save negates, 1 round/caster level
Selph|-3|Only affects you, doesn't count towards casting time, can't be modified by another shape word [/table][/table]

{table=head]Effect words
{table=head]Word|DC|Effect
Min |+1 | Befuddle
Terr | +1| Scare
Holis | +1 | Imbue an area with Good energies
Horrib| +1| Imbue an area with Evil energies
Honis | +1| Imbue an area with Lawful energies
Hohwat| +1| Imbue an area with Chaotic energies
Arm |+1 | +2/+1 per 4 Armor bonus
Inv | +1 | Spell immunity
Excel | +1 |Boost skills, saves, and attack rolls
Sir | +1 |Spell resistance
Disp | +10/+2| Dispel magical effects
Ant | +1| Suppress magical effects
Scan |+1| Detect properties of the target
Ilus | +1| Make illusions[/table][/table]

Min: Each target is dazzled unless they pass a Will save. If they have one-third as many hit dice or fewer as instances of Min, they are dazzled even if they pass a Will save; if they fail, they are dazed instead. If they have one-quarter as many hit dice or fewer as instance of Min, they are confused or stunned instead of dazed when they fail their Will save (your choice as you cast the spell). This lasts for 2 rounds. The spell gains the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor.

Terr: Each target without more hit dice than the number of instances of Terr is shaken unless they pass a Will save. If they have one-third as many hit dice or fewer as instances of Terr, they are frightened instead. If they have one-quarter as many hit dice or fewer as instance of Terr, they are panicked instead (your choice as you cast the spell. This lasts for 2 rounds. The spell gains the [Fear] descriptor.

Path: You can detect the surface thoughts of the target and sense what it senses for 1 minute/caster level while it is within 1 mile (Will negates (harmless)). You must concentrate on a target in order to do either of those things.

Holis (Area of effect shapes only): The spell imbues the area with good energies. Healing effects within the area can heal Vile damage, Undead within the area get a -2 Sacred penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, Undead cannot be created within the area, and creatures within the area gain a protection from evil-like immunity to possession and mind control. The duration of this spell is dependent on the number of instances of Holis: with one instance, it lasts for 1 round; with five instances, it lasts for 1 round per caster level; with nine instances, it lasts for 1 hour per caster level; with 13, it lasts for 1 month per caster level; with 17, it lasts for 1 year per caster level. The spell gains the [Good] descriptor.

Horrib (Area of effect shapes only): The spell imbues the area with evil energies. Creatures within the area cannot regain health, Diplomacy does not work within the area, creatures cannot be raised from the dead within the area, and creatures within the area gain a protection from evil-like immunity to possession and mind control. The duration of this spell is dependent on the number of instances of Horrib: with one instance, it lasts for 1 round; with five instances, it lasts for 1 round per caster level; with nine instances, it lasts for 1 hour per caster level; with 13, it lasts for 1 month per caster level; with 17, it lasts for 1 year per caster level. The spell gains the [Evil] descriptor.

Honis (Area of effect shapes only): The spell imbues the area with lawful energies. Creatures within the area cannot lie or make Bluff checks, creatures within the area glow a color that indicates their alignment and makes it impossible to hide in darkness, and creatures within the area gain a protection from evil-like immunity to possession and mind control. The duration of this spell is dependent on the number of instances of Honis: with one instance, it lasts for 1 round; with five instances, it lasts for 1 round per caster level; with nine instances, it lasts for 1 hour per caster level; with 13, it lasts for 1 month per caster level; with 17, it lasts for 1 year per caster level. The spell gains the [Lawful] descriptor.

Hohwat (Area of effect shapes only): The spell imbues the area with chaotic energies. Creatures within the area cannot make Sense Motive checks, Constructs within the area get a -2 Sacred penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and creatures within the area gain a protection from evil-like immunity to possession and mind control. The duration of this spell is dependent on the number of instances of Hohwat: with one instance, it lasts for 1 round; with five instances, it lasts for 1 round per caster level; with nine instances, it lasts for 1 hour per caster level; with 13, it lasts for 1 month per caster level; with 17, it lasts for 1 year per caster level. The spell gains the [Chaotic] descriptor.

Arm: The spell grants each target a +2 Armor Bonus for 1 hour/caster level. Every 4 additional instances of Arm increases the amount of Armor Bonus granted in this way by 1. The spell gains the [Force] descriptor.
Inv: The spell makes each target immune to level 0 spells for 1 minute/caster level. For every three additional instances of Inv, the highest level of spell that the targets become immune to increases by one.

Excel: The spell grants each target a +1 insight bonus to all skills, saves, and attack rolls for 3 rounds. Each additional instance of Excel increases the insight bonus to skills by 1, and every three additional instances increases the insight bonus to saves and attack rolls by 1. The spell gains the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor.

Sir: The spell grants each target Spell Resistance equal to your caster level plus 13 for 1 round per instance of Sir.

Disp: For every spell effect or item that is on any of the targets or is within this spell's effect might be dispelled or suppressed. Each effect's caster must make a caster level check (In the case of magic items, use the magic item's caster level) opposed by your roll to cast this spell. Any nonpermanent effect that has its caster level check fail is dispelled. Permanent effects and magic items have their properties suppressed for 1d4 rounds. With six instances of Disp, permanent effects and magic items are dispelled if they fail on their caster level checks by 10 or more. The first instance of Disp increases the DC by 10, and each additional instance increases the DC by 2.

Ant (Area of effect spells only): The space within the area of effect of this spell is functions much like an Antimagic Field. However, it only prevents the functioning of spells, magic items, and summoned creatures with a caster level equal to or lower than the number of instances of Ant used in this spell.

Scan: You learn certain details about all creatures and objects hit by this spell, depending on the number of instances of Scan. With at least one instance, you determine the creature's and object's current hit points; with two, you also learn their maximum hit points; with three, you learn the properties of any damage reduction, hardness, energy resistance, and energy immunities they have; with four, you determine their ability scores; with five, you learn of all of their bonuses to AC, and their Will, Fortitude, and Reflex saves; with six, you learn the creatures' and items' names, and identify the items; with seven, you learn their alignments.

Ilus (Area of effect shapes only): You can create images or sounds within the area of effect of the spell (Will disbelief). You must concentrate on the images or sounds to make them move or change. Spot and listen checks to discover that it's an illusion are opposed by your Bluff check. The illusion lasts for 1 round/caster level. With two instances of Ilus, it lasts for 1 minute/caster level. With three, it lasts for 10 minutes/caster level. With four, it lasts for 1 hour/caster level. With five, it lasts for 1 day/caster level. With six, it lasts for 1 week/caster level. With seven, it lasts for 1 year/caster level. With eight, it's permanent. The spell gains the [Figment] descriptor.

The save DC of a Divine Word spell is equal to 10 + one third the spell's word count + the Divine Word's Wisdom modifier.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast prayers of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Aura (Ex): A cleric of the Daemons or of the Pantheon has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).

Divine Favor: A cleric must always follow her deity's goals over her own. Any time a cleric attempts an action or takes a path that is against her deity's beliefs, followers, or direct orders, she loses all of her blessings, and her ability to invoke miracles and prayers. She also loses these if her alignment shifts too far away from her deity's (see Alignment, above). A cleric must make amends to her deity before regaining these abilities, through an atonement ritual. This is identical to the atonement (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Atonement) spell, however it takes 1 day, and can be attempted at any level.

Blessings: A cleric constantly displays their faith towards their deity in their actions and influence. At each of these levels, a cleric may choose one of the following abilities that remain active as long as the cleric has favor from her deity.

Divine Protection (Ex): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric is granted protection from physical attack. As long as a cleric has favor from her deity, she adds her Wisdom modifier (if any) as a sacred bonus to AC. In addition, a cleric gains a +1 sacred bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five cleric levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). In addition, each ally within 10 feet gain half the cleric's wisdom modifier to their AC.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the cleric is flat-footed, and when she is immobilized or helpless.

Divine Reflexes (Su): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on reflex saving throws. In addition, a cleric gains a +1 bonus to reflex saves at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five cleric levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). In addition, each ally within 10 feet gain half the cleric's wisdom modifier to their reflex save.

Divine Resolve (Su): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on will saving throws. In addition, a cleric gains a +1 bonus to will saves at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five cleric levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). In addition, each ally within 10 feet gain half the cleric's wisdom modifier to their will save.

Divine Perseverance (Su): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on fortitude saving throws. In addition, a cleric gains a +1 bonus to fortitude saves at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five cleric levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). In addition, each ally within 10 feet gain half the cleric's wisdom modifier to their fortitude save.

Divine Courage (Su): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the cleric is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Divine Health (Ex): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases. In addition, each ally within 10 feet gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against diseases.

Divine Resistance (Su): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains immunity to poisons of all kinds. In addition, each ally within 10 feet gains a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against poisons.

Divine Soul (Ex): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric gains spell resistance equal to her current cleric level + 10. In order to affect the cleric with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the cleric’s spell resistance. In addition, each ally within 10 feet of the cleric that is affected by a magical attack may use the cleric’s level in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the result proves to be higher. If a creature within range is already under the effect of a magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it is within range, but it must use the cleric’s level for the save. This has no effect against effects that don’t allow saves.

Divine Youth (Ex): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the cleric still dies of old age when her time is up.

Tongues (Ex): Upon taking this blessing, a cleric can speak with any living creature, so long as it has the capability to speak a language.

Divine Knowledge: A cleric may make a special divine knowledge check with a bonus equal to her cleric level + her Wisdom modifier to see whether she knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the cleric has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), she gains a +2 bonus on this check.)
A successful divine knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A cleric may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

{table=head]DC | Type of Knowledge
10 | Common, known by at least a substantial minority drinking; common legends of the local population.
20 | Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends.
25 | Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
30 | Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don't understand the significance of the knowledge.[/table]

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su):A cleric who takes this blessing, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. A cleric of the Pantheon turns undead, and a cleric of the Daemons rebukes them.


When turning undead, the cleric makes a turning check against the closest creature first, followed by a separate check against the next closest, and so on. When two or more creatures are equally close, the creature with the lowest number of Hit Dice is affected first (if it's still a tie, the character chooses which one is affected first). Creatures more than 60 feet away cannot be turned.

A turning check is a level check to which the character also adds his Charisma modifier. (Use the character's effective turning level, which is equal to class level for a cleric or class level -3 for a paladin.) The DC is 10+ the creature's Hit Dice + its turn resistance (if any) + its Charisma modifier.

If the check fails, the creature is unaffected. Its Hit Dice do not count against the total number of creatures the character can turn (see below).

If the character succeeds on the check, the affected creature stands frozen in place for one round, just if it were paralyzed (though this affects even creatures with immunity to paralysis). On each succeeding turn, the character may take a standard action to concentrate on the effect, prolonging the effective paralysis for an additional round (This doesn't count as a turn attempt, and affects all undead creatures that the character had "paralyzed" in this manner.) The character may concentrate on this effect for a maximum of 10 consecutive rounds, after which the undead creature can act normally. If a creature affected in this way is attacked or takes damage, the effect is broken and the creature may act normally beginning on its next turn. (The character's proximity to the creature has no effect.) This effect is the same whether the character follows the Pantheon or the Daemons.

If the character's check beats the DC by 5 or more, he may instead turn the creature (if he is a cleric of the Pantheon) or rebuke it (if he is a cleric of the Daemons).

If the creature has Hit Dice equal to one-half the character's effective cleric level or less, the turning attempt automatically succeeds, and he does not have to make a check (the creature's Hit Dice still count against the maximum). Furthermore, such undead are automatically destroyed (if the character is a cleric of the Pantheon) or commanded (if the character is a cleric of the Daemons).

The character makes checks against each eligible creature until he has affected the maximum Hit Dice worth of creatures, or there are no more eligible creatures. He can affect a number of Hit Dice of creatures equal to three x his effective cleric level on any one turning attempt. For example, a 4th level cleric (or 7th-level paladin) can affect up to 12 HD worth of creatures, which could mean two creatures with 6 HD each, four creatures with 3 HD each, or any other combination that adds up to 12 HD.

A Daemon cleric can instead channel negative energy to bolster undead or to dispel a turning effect. In either case, the cleric makes a normal turning check (if attempting to dispel a turning effect, add the turning cleric's Charisma modifier to the DC of the evil cleric's turning check). If the cleric successfully rebukes the undead, the undead gains turn resistance +2 (if he was attempting to bolster them) or they are no longer turned (if he was attempting to dispel the turning effect).

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning or rebuking checks against undead.


Domains: A cleric gains the ability to channel her deity's divine influence upon the world. At second level, she gains her first domain, from her deity's list of domains. She may use these words in her normal cleric spells. She also gains the domain's power, listed in the domain's entry, that effects all cleric spells that meet the prerequisites. These abilities stack with each other if applicable. Domain creation is detailed below.

A domain grants the cleric one word, a modifier, shape, or effect word, from the available word list found here (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Wordcasting_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)). Words may be created, but balance with the others presented and consult your DM for permission and revision.

Each domain also includes a power, roughly equal to the power of a feat. Therefore, a feat with which you meet the prerequisites is possible, or a +1 to caster level checks concerning a specific type (such as [fire]), a 1 round per day boost to an ability score equal to your caster level, modify the target of turn or rebuke undead, gain proficiency with weapon, or make 2-3 skills part of your spell list. Other boosts may be possible, consult your DM.

Ex.) Lyf Domain
Gain access to the word Lyf
All [healing] spells are cast at +1 caster level.

Lith Domain
Gain access to the word Lith
May turn elementals with the [air] subtype and rebuke elementals with the [earth] subtype just as a cleric can turn or rebuke undead. This takes one of your turn undead uses for the day.



Domain Enhancement: At 4th level, and again every four levels thereafter, you may make one change to one of your domains, selected from the list below.


Add one word to one of your domain word lists with a different, thematically appropriate word. Your DM must approve the new word. If the word you choose is available at different levels to members of different classes, consult with your DM to determine what level it should be for you.



Select a domain power that is usable a limited number of times per day. You gain one additional daily use of that power. You can select this option multiple times. Its effects stack.



Select a domain power that improves your caster level when casting a particular type of spell. The caster level bonus increases by +1. You can select this option multiple times. Its effects stack.


Enlightenment At 20th level, a cleric becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the cleric’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the cleric gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the cleric can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.



Alright, looks pretty complete. Probably way overpowered, I will happily take suggestions for balance and ideas for more abilities. And yes, I stole practically all of this from other sources. And I'm proud of it.:smallcool:

Solaris
2012-05-05, 04:44 AM
Enlightenment At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the cleric’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the cleric gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the cleric can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

You missed one.

There's already an ability called Divine Grace. You should rename yours, being that it does something different. Divine Reflexes, for example, though I admit it's not as pleasant-sounding as the other two.

Do you intend for this to be a full caster, to include casting 9th-level spells? If so, it's more powerful than an ordinary cleric.

Xechon
2012-05-05, 08:01 AM
Yeah, I know there is an ability called divine grace, that's where I got it from. I'll Change it to avoid confusion. Also, I was planning on full casting a more limited times/day, but only buff/debuff spells. Other cleric-ish spells, and a couple of the damage ones, would be included under miracles, so the cleric has to sacrifice healing ability that day to use one of those. Also, a domain might grant a few attack spells that can be spontaneously cast in place of prayers. Is this still overpowered, and if so, how could I strip it down, ideally keeping the same flavor?

Xechon
2012-05-05, 05:11 PM
Alright, the full class is posted. PEACHing and copypasta cleaning very much appreciated!:smallbiggrin:

Totally not a bumb

Solaris
2012-05-06, 01:27 AM
Taking away the cleric's healing is like taking away the Lightning Warrior's familiar. The cleric's mostly about the buffs and debuffs, you see. Check out CoDzilla.

A free metamagic reducer? Please tell me you're not allowing DMM: Persist.

The domain enhancements, while a good idea in theory, are very easy to break.

Yitzi
2012-05-06, 07:07 AM
Taking away the cleric's healing is like taking away the Lightning Warrior's familiar. The cleric's mostly about the buffs and debuffs, you see.

Buffs yes, debuffs not really. Also, healing is important for between combats, although there are 4 other Core classes with the ability to use wands of CLW (but if you want to heal without cash costs and aren't planning to fight today, cleric can't be beat and only druid comes close).


Check out CoDzilla.

I'd be wary of using an overpowered TO build to argue what the class is "mostly about". That's essentially defining TO as the "standard" way to play the game, which isn't true at all.

Xechon
2012-05-06, 08:33 AM
The cleric still gets the healing if she wants it, through domains.

Did I miss something in there? I don't believe I gave it a meta magic reducer, heck, I didn't even mention if it was allowed in this class. I can't find it when I look back, you mind pointing it out for me?

I know about cleric and Druid-zillas, and to help prevent that (and because Virdish requested) I will use the word casting variant for tfe cleric, with buff/ward/debuffs in the normal cleric spell list and everything else in domains. He wants it all spontaneous, so domains wil just grant extra words. I'll keep the prayer book for now.

Xechon
2012-05-06, 11:59 AM
Yeah, okay, I found the metamagic part and fixed it, and edited it to use wordcasting. Post away!

Still not a bump

Solaris
2012-05-06, 10:21 PM
I'd be wary of using an overpowered TO build to argue what the class is "mostly about". That's essentially defining TO as the "standard" way to play the game, which isn't true at all.

TO my left nut. PO in my game. It just doesn't get nightsticks.
This class made it even easier to do CoDzilla than the regular cleric before he fixed it. That is not a good design goal, and should be avoided.

Yitzi
2012-05-06, 10:54 PM
TO my left nut. PO in my game.

Ok, I suppose some do have it as PO. Clericzilla (focusing primarily on self-buffs rather than whole-party buffs) still not what it appears the class was meant to be played as, and therefore I wouldn't consider it what it's mostly about.

Solaris
2012-05-07, 06:29 AM
Ok, I suppose some do have it as PO. Clericzilla (focusing primarily on self-buffs rather than whole-party buffs) still not what it appears the class was meant to be played as, and therefore I wouldn't consider it what it's mostly about.

And therein you run into the problem the game designers showed the rest of us: People will not always play the way you intend it to be played, but rather will gravitate towards the most effective way to play it. Blasters are not the most effective wizards. Healbots are not the most effective clerics - and are but rarely even fun to play. When homebrewing, you ought to take a look at it and think not "How do I want to play this?" but "How do I break this?"

Xechon
2012-05-07, 07:00 AM
That's what I brought this here for. This forum is the best at breaking 3.5 in so many multiple ways, and I see I have problems by the previous posts. However it would be helpful if you at least tell me the problem, and possibly even propose a fix.

Yitzi
2012-05-07, 09:35 AM
And therein you run into the problem the game designers showed the rest of us: People will not always play the way you intend it to be played, but rather will gravitate towards the most effective way to play it.

The answer, therefore, is to make sure that the way you meant it to be played is the most effective one.


Blasters are not the most effective wizards.

Not true. Blasters are not the most effective wizards in 1v1 play; they are very effective against larger groups of weaker enemies.


Healbots are not the most effective clerics

True, but party-buffers can be more effective than self-buffers if the party has strong martial characters.

Even a full healer build should be healing and status restoration; while some games are healer-friendly, D&D is not one of them.


When homebrewing, you ought to take a look at it and think not "How do I want to play this?" but "How do I break this?"

True. But that's still a question of "how is this broken", not "what is the class all about". I wasn't criticizing the basic "clerics are all about buffs" claim (although that's still incomplete; while clerics are mainly about buffs, they've also got some good noncombat support abilities, and status healing is important even if it's not the full focus of the class), just the choice of proof.

Solaris
2012-05-07, 09:52 AM
That's what I brought this here for. This forum is the best at breaking 3.5 in so many multiple ways, and I see I have problems by the previous posts. However it would be helpful if you at least tell me the problem, and possibly even propose a fix.

I did. You fixed it.



The answer, therefore, is to make sure that the way you meant it to be played is the most effective one.

Yes... and to take into account the law of unintended consequences.


Not true. Blasters are not the most effective wizards in 1v1 play; they are very effective against larger groups of weaker enemies.

You don't optimize much, do you?


True, but party-buffers can be more effective than self-buffers if the party has strong martial characters.

Even a full healer build should be healing and status restoration; while some games are healer-friendly, D&D is not one of them.

If.
At higher levels of play and anything above T3 optimization, that pretty much demands ToB.


True. But that's still a question of "how is this broken", not "what is the class all about". I wasn't criticizing the basic "clerics are all about buffs" claim (although that's still incomplete; while clerics are mainly about buffs, they've also got some good noncombat support abilities, and status healing is important even if it's not the full focus of the class), just the choice of proof.

You mean the free metamagic reducer and the CoDzilla, which he already fixed? 'Cause I sure don't recall making any claims that it was broken beyond that.

Yitzi
2012-05-07, 11:03 AM
You don't optimize much, do you?

Tell me...how many spell levels does a level 17 nonblaster need to kill 100 formian workers who are mobbing him?


If.
At higher levels of play and anything above T3 optimization, that pretty much demands ToB.

Actually, in order to be strong enough to make party-buffers better than self-buffers, they only need to be superior at combat to clerics with only self-only buffs, which should be quite doable with non-ToB-style homebrew.


You mean the free metamagic reducer and the CoDzilla, which he already fixed? 'Cause I sure don't recall making any claims that it was broken beyond that.

I didn't even discuss your claims about it being broken. I pointed out that what the class is "mostly about" means how it's meant to be played and what the archetype encourages, not how optimizers play it, and therefore CoDzilla is irrelevant to that particular discussion.

Solaris
2012-05-07, 11:30 AM
You really ought to read more optimization handbooks. Even without nightsticks, I can make a cleric better at the fighter or barbarian's job than they are. It's not at all hard.


I didn't even discuss your claims about it being broken. I pointed out that what the class is "mostly about" means how it's meant to be played and what the archetype encourages, not how optimizers play it, and therefore CoDzilla is irrelevant to that particular discussion.

Ah. You must be one of the 3.0 playtesters. Because fewer slots per day, when combined with a metamagic reducer and the ability to turn undead, that encourages CoDzilla much more than it does party buffer.
But hey, however you think it should be played, that's what's important, not what it's actually good for... or how someone else would play it.

I'm tired, I'm cranky, and I'm still trying to figure out why you're obsessing over this point. I made it, the OP agreed and fixed it. Move on.

Xechon
2012-05-07, 11:48 AM
May I request that any further comments on this thread be towards the balance of this class, how to fix any problems, and suggestions for it's class features? Differing views are great, but explain your view, and respect others'. I just want to make sure this is all sound for Virdish's campaign setting.

Solaris
2012-05-07, 11:54 AM
May I request that any further comments on this thread be towards the balance of this class, how to fix any problems, and suggestions for it's class features? Differing views are great, but explain your view, and respect others'.

Absolutely not. Such a request is completely out of the question.


I just want to make sure this is all sound for Virdish's campaign setting.

Assuming he uses the standard 3.5E balance points, this looks alright. I'm not familiar with wordcasting, but it at least seems pretty cool.

Xechon
2012-05-07, 03:18 PM
Thanks. Word casting is a free hombrew I found a little while back, made to act as true sorcery or non-epic spell seeds, but free. It is made to be balanced with normal spell casting, and is a tonne less variable (needing casters), but feels more variable because it lets you create the spells instead of picking them. 3 words is supposed to equal 1 spell level, if that helps.

And sorry about that last post. This is my first real homebrew, and I've screwed up every other one I've attempted, so I was just anxious about how this one turned out. Thanks for the feedback!