3.5 Assassin?

[DefKab]

Let's say I wanted to make Ezio from Assassins Creed II, what would I need to do that?

I've got a couple of ideas, like Factotum for Iaijutsu Focus for his assassinations, a couple of fighter levels for feats, but lets try to peg down all of his abilities.

He has super deadly sneak attacks, obviously, and at least Medium BAB for Melee combat, (He was always better with a knife, if it matters), and good with a Crossbow (I'll ignore his GunArm for fluff reasons). What about bombs? Can we tag those on? Can we find a way to make his hidden blade, so he can Iaijutsu several times easily?

What do you have Playground? Can we make a Tier 3 Ezio Auditore de Firenze?

[Lateral]

Gnomish Quickrazor is exactly the weapon you're looking for. Every attack counts as if you had just drawn it, and it pretty much might as well just be the knife thing. Factotum with lots of Iaijutsu Focus that dual-wields those, and you're pretty much done.

[DefKab]

The Gnomish Quickrazor is absolutely perfect, and I agree with at least 1 level of Factotum, but any more isn't an improvement, just a continuation. I wanna avoid any magic (Factotum gets it at 2), unless determined to be the only way to emulate Ezio's bombs. And while Iaijutsu is great, is there a way I can add sneak attack damage, or maybe Skirmisher on top of it, for an almost assured kill?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Swordsage also helps a lot, there are tons of movility maneuvers (bounding assault comes to mind) and even one that allows you to move as if under the spider walk spell to emulate Ezzio superhuman climbing abilities.

Also factotum 2 works quite nice even if you get access to magic (which incidentally you don't have to use if you don't want); but it gives you access to craft: Alchemy for those awesome bombs from Assassin's creed Revelations.

[The-Mage-King]

Pathfinder Rogue might work, if that's allowed. They can get bombs.

:smalltongue:



Otherwise, Warblade or Swordsage, I'd continue with. Human Factotum 1 (or 3, for Brains over Brawn)/Swordsage (Or Warblade) some/PrC relevant to interests would work.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It doesn't matter, as long as you're proficient with an axe. :smalltongue:

Factotum with swordsage dip... lots of Grease for the extra damage all the time.

[enderlord99]

Bard, so you that whenever a guard tells you to stop, you can just kill him with your awesome.:smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Maybe Urban Ranger and pick up Favoured Organisation?

[Answerer]

Maybe Urban Ranger and pick up Favoured Organisation?
Now if only the Favored Enemy/Favored Organization bonuses meant anything...

[rweird]

Take Mercurial Strike (Dragon 310, or Dragon Compendium) combine it with Roldar's Gambit and replicate being able to kill your opponent as they attack.

[Answerer]

It's worth mentioning that Ezio's probably only about level 5 or 6. He's got super-human acrobatics, but he's not exactly climbing raindrops or whatever.

[Saintheart]

You mention bombs -- if your DM is insane enough to allow it, look back to Oriental Adventures for dust bombs (AFB, can't remember what page) ...

Dust bombs. Blinding weapon. With NO SAVE.

[rweird]

In that case, ignore what I said, I don't think he couldn't have the needed BAB, unless he is a gesalt.

[enderlord99]

It's worth mentioning that Ezio's probably only about level 5 or 6. He's got super-human acrobatics, but he's not exactly climbing raindrops or whatever.

...What makes you think a 7th-level character can climb raindrops? That's not until 21st level, typically.:smallconfused:

[Gavinfoxx]

You can't climb raindrops just when you get Superhuman in D&D! This isn't Legend!

:P :P

[gallagher]

i see a Swordsage as the ultimate assassin if you dont want to do an IF Factotum.

[Answerer]

...What makes you think a 7th-level character can climb raindrops? That's not until 21st level, typically.:smallconfused:
Nothing in the ELH suggests that Epic skill usages require Epic levels. Still, I'd forgotten it was DC 120; that's probably not realistic without absurdity before Epic levels anyway.

My point was more that if things like "the way the human body works" is any impediment to you, you are not more than around 8th level or so. This is putting him on par with, or close to, plenty of gods from mythology, so don't think I'm shortchanging him.

It's merely a matter of people underestimating the power level that 3.5 describes. In a lot of ways, Legend's described power level at high levels is actually lower than 3.5's; Legend doesn't have, say, Genesis.

Then there is the matter of 3.5's imbalances; plenty of character classes can get to nominally high levels without actually being capable of doing the things that high-level 3.5 characters are supposed to be able to do (based on the encounters they are supposedly able to overcome), which skews people's perception.

But again, Ezio is "just" superhuman. He can do things that a human being could, just better than a human being could. He's still threatened by perfectly mundane guards, albeit only en masse.


My point is anyone who wants to play Ezio in 3.5 either has to play at low levels, or extrapolate where someone of Ezio's caliber relative to the real world would sit relative to 3.5's world. This would entail significant use of magic.

[DefKab]

I thought over it, and decided he would be PERFECT for an E6 game. I thought about Factotum1/Fighter2/Warblade3, but everyone is mentioning Swordsage. Are the manuevers different for Swordsages and Warblades? Because I'd really like him to be a premier fighter...

[Kuulvheysoon]

I thought over it, and decided he would be PERFECT for an E6 game. I thought about Factotum1/Fighter2/Warblade3, but everyone is mentioning Swordsage. Are the manuevers different for Swordsages and Warblades? Because I'd really like him to be a premier fighter...

Really, the principal differences between the two are BAB (the warblade's full compared to the SS's 3/4), access to disciplines (SS gets Desert Wind, Shadow Hand and Setting Sun while the WB gets Iron Heart and White Raven, while they both can access Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw), maneuver progression (the SS gets more) and maneuver refresh mechanic (the WB's mechanic is much superior - the SS pretty much requires a feat to make refreshing viable).

[Gray Mage]

I thought over it, and decided he would be PERFECT for an E6 game. I thought about Factotum1/Fighter2/Warblade3, but everyone is mentioning Swordsage. Are the manuevers different for Swordsages and Warblades? Because I'd really like him to be a premier fighter...

As said before, SS have acess to Shadow Hand, which is the sneaky school, which has some assassin feel. Plus, a lot of them are mundane.

[DefKab]

As said before, SS have acess to Shadow Hand, which is the sneaky school, which has some assassin feel. Plus, a lot of them are mundane.

Considering an E6 game (Level 6 is the highest you go) would it be worth it to have the Shadow Hand, instead of +2 BAB? The difference between +3 and +5 is staggering at that level...

[Answerer]

Swordsage seems to fit Ezio better. The Warblade is maybe ever so slightly better than Swordsage, but by a really tiny amount.

[Lord_Gareth]

Considering an E6 game (Level 6 is the highest you go) would it be worth it to have the Shadow Hand, instead of +2 BAB? The difference between +3 and +5 is staggering at that level...

On the other hand, there's no reason the 'sage can't use Emerald Razor to make up for that kind of thing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Considering an E6 game (Level 6 is the highest you go) would it be worth it to have the Shadow Hand, instead of +2 BAB? The difference between +3 +4 and +5 +6 is staggering at that level...

I'd lean towards yes, just because Swordsage fits Ezio so much better than Warblade.

I mean, taking nearly exclusively Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind/Setting Sun pretty much describes him.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd lean towards yes, just because Swordsage fits Ezio so much better than Warblade.

I mean, taking nearly exclusively Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind/Setting Sun pretty much describes him.

I think the +3 and +5 is due to a factotum level.

[unundindur]

In E6 I find the best assassin-build (which also suits Ezio perfectly) is Ranger1/Fighter1/Warbade4.

Use the variant that gives fighter sneak attack instead of a feat (from Unearthed Arcane), and the variant that gives him light-armor bonuses from Drow of the Underdark.

Take favored enemy either humans or arcane spellcasters (alternate feature from Complete Mage), use the variant from cityscape that lets you exchange skills as a ranger to get Tumble and Gather Information.

Take Martial Study as soon as possible to grab Assassin's stance.

If allowed, take Craven feat from one of the faerun books.

That that point you are looking at a Dual-wielder with BaB +6 (thus 4 attacks), 3d6+6 sneak attack, a lot of HP, quite a lot of skills and track+scent (which is bonkers in this role).

If you want more awesome, take poison mastery from Drow of the Underdark, take Snap kick from Tome of Battle for a 5th attack. Darkstalker is also key, as is staggering strike, shadow blade tecnique and leadership (to get utility-minions).

If you want to start a non-realistic crusade, take Martial study Shadow Jaunt and martial study Cloak of desception. As this point you pretty much win the game :smallsmile:

[Dumorimasoddaa]

I'd consider doping factotum for just able-learner for ijitsu focus. Then pretty much going the Ranger1/Fighter1/Warbade4 unundindur surgessted or maybe word-sage (it does fit much better) though you lose an attacks but you gain mobility and such. That could easly add more power to the build with flat-footing more often thus getting more sneak attack and ijitsu damage. I haven't however ran the numbers yet. Though if flaws are allowed this could get even more silly.

[Answerer]

track+scent
Ehh... in many, many games, DMs use tracking as a plot hook more than a class feature. It's a way of describing how you find/catch up to an enemy that the DM had planned on you catching up to anyway, not something that allows you to find or catch an enemy your DM didn't want found...

[MrLemon]

In E6 I find the best assassin-build (which also suits Ezio perfectly) is Ranger1/Fighter1/Warbade4.

Use the variant that gives fighter sneak attack instead of a feat (from Unearthed Arcane), and the variant that gives him light-armor bonuses from Drow of the Underdark.

Take favored enemy either humans or arcane spellcasters (alternate feature from Complete Mage), use the variant from cityscape that lets you exchange skills as a ranger to get Tumble and Gather Information.

Take Martial Study as soon as possible to grab Assassin's stance.

If allowed, take Craven feat from one of the faerun books.

That that point you are looking at a Dual-wielder with BaB +6 (thus 4 attacks), 3d6+6 sneak attack, a lot of HP, quite a lot of skills and track+scent (which is bonkers in this role).

If you want more awesome, take poison mastery from Drow of the Underdark, take Snap kick from Tome of Battle for a 5th attack. Darkstalker is also key, as is staggering strike, shadow blade tecnique and leadership (to get utility-minions).

If you want to start a non-realistic crusade, take Martial study Shadow Jaunt and martial study Cloak of desception. As this point you pretty much win the game :smallsmile:

That build does not work...
First of all, it lists 5 feats: TWF, Imp. TWF (for the 4 Attacks), Martial Study (Something from Shadow Hand), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), Craven

Without using flaws (which we can't assume) we're looking at 4 Feats at level 6 (human assumed of course)

Secondly, his lvl 6 Feat has to be Imp. TWF (because of BAB 6), so he can't take Martial Stance on 6th. Taking Martial Stance at a level lower than 6 CAN not grant him Assassin's Stance, because his Initiator level is then lower than 5, meaning he gets access to lvl 2 Maneuvers and stances.

All things considered: If you take out Imp. TWF, it should work.

[Answerer]

E6 also gets extra bonus feats after 6, which is probably what he meant.

[unundindur]

Ehh... in many, many games, DMs use tracking as a plot hook more than a class feature. It's a way of describing how you find/catch up to an enemy that the DM had planned on you catching up to anyway, not something that allows you to find or catch an enemy your DM didn't want found...

Yea, but if i play an assassin chances are high I will be making the plots, and the GM will be trying to foil them. Tracking and scent are absolutely amazing in that context, and also in shortening the endless sequence of "gather information" that can get really tedious really fast.

The character I fleshed out is simply my take at an assassin the way I like them. That is a character who doesn't need a party, and who can take down pretty much any foe given preparation. In this context, finding the target is usually the hardest part :smallsmile:

(NOTE: Even though it might sound like I am a GMs nightmare, this is hardly the truth. Playing like this kind of needs the GMs blessing.)


E6 also gets extra bonus feats after 6, which is probably what he meant.

This :smallsmile:

[Roguenewb]

Funnily enough, I just started the first level of prep work on an assassin type character who I think will end up strangely similar. The build is thus, with a gray elf:

Level 1 feat rogue (hand crossbow focus, versatile combatant, point blank shot, precise shot)

level 2-4 Swashbuckler picking up weapon finesse, arcane stunt (blur probably) and Quickdraw, as well as Int to damage

Levels 5-7 Factotum picking up font of inspiration.

Levels 8-17: Avenger (assassin for good people!) At some point, snag daring outlaw, and finish on factotum 1, rogue 2 more.

The build at level 8 is this snazzy leaps into combat, shooting and stabbing wildly, as well as being able to slide out of combat to strike death attack with practice. The build is all Dex and Int, and Factotum levels are super fun here. I think it does most of what you're talking about.

[MrLemon]

Forget I said anything.

Using one bonus feat that build works just fine :smallsmile:

[GolemsVoice]

Maybe throw in Leadership as one of the "After Lvl 6" bonus feats and get yourself your own brotherhood of assassins like Ezio does?

[Roguenewb]

Maybe throw in Leadership as one of the "After Lvl 6" bonus feats and get yourself your own brotherhood of assassins like Ezio does?

If your DM allows leadership, not a bad idea.