ATK and Full ATK stat block question

[chomskola]

I am just starting to be a DM for 3.5 but I have a burning question that I need to resolve first.

Looking at the atk and full atk entries in stat blocks for monsters, you would think that the efficient thing would be the modifier represents all the maluses and bonuses taken into account, and you simply add the bonus given here onto the atk roll for convenience of the DM.

But I cant make sense of that, as some creatures that have a strength of say..3 might have an atk entry that reads +5..does this mean I need to calculate the strength penalty, subtract it from the atk bonus given and then use the remainder (pos or neg) to add to the atk roll? Where are tiny creature getting these big atk bonuses from? In general ID like to know if the bonuses quoted in the stat blocks are "good to go" or do I need to so some more calculations. thanks all.

[mattie_p]

You only add the strength bonus to an attack roll, you do not subtract any strength penalty. Strength modifier might suck, but also check size modifier, smaller creatures get a bonus to hit. Additionally, monster BAB progresses with hit dice, so if it has more than one hit die, regardless of size, it will boost the attack roll. It might also have weapon finesse as a feat, allowing its probably significant dex bonus to apply to its attack roll.

[elpollo]

Looking at the atk and full atk entries in stat blocks for monsters, you would think that the efficient thing would be the modifier represents all the maluses and bonuses taken into account, and you simply add the bonus given here onto the atk roll for convenience of the DM.

That is how it works.



But I cant make sense of that, as some creatures that have a strength of say..3 might have an atk entry that reads +5..does this mean I need to calculate the strength penalty, subtract it from the atk bonus given and then use the remainder (pos or neg) to add to the atk roll? Where are tiny creature getting these big atk bonuses from? In general ID like to know if the bonuses quoted in the stat blocks are "good to go" or do I need to so some more calculations. thanks all.

All bonuses and penalties are factored into the given attack bonus. If the cat entry says that it has +4 to hit (which it does), that's what you add to the d20 roll. Remember that small (or smaller) creatures get a bonus to attack rolls due to their size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), which is often where a lot of this bonus comes from, as well as a bonus to dexterity (so you see a lot of small creatures with Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse) as a bonus feat).

Take the cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm), for example: normally as a 1/2 HD Animal with a strength of 3 you'd expect a -4 penalty to attack rolls. However, the cat is Tiny (+2 to hit and AC), making it -2 to attack rolls. The cat also has Weapon Finesse, meaning that it adds its Dexterity modifier (+2) to attack rolls instead of its Strength modifier (-4), meaning its total bonus to its attack roll is +4 (+2 Size, +2 Dexterity).



You only add the strength bonus to an attack roll, you do not subtract any strength penalty.

Is this a rule? The Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) would disagree with this, as a small warrior (BAB +1, size +1) with 9 strength (-1), and an attack bonus of +1.

[mattie_p]

Curses, foiled by need more coffee. You are correct, elpollo, I need to edit my post

[Urpriest]

You should probably read my Monster Handbook, link in sig.

[TuggyNE]

Looking at the atk and full atk entries in stat blocks for monsters, you would think that the efficient thing would be the modifier represents all the maluses and bonuses taken into account, and you simply add the bonus given here onto the atk roll for convenience of the DM.

But I cant make sense of that, as some creatures that have a strength of say..3 might have an atk entry that reads +5..does this mean I need to calculate the strength penalty, subtract it from the atk bonus given and then use the remainder (pos or neg) to add to the atk roll? Where are tiny creature getting these big atk bonuses from? In general ID like to know if the bonuses quoted in the stat blocks are "good to go" or do I need to so some more calculations. thanks all.


All bonuses and penalties are factored into the given attack bonus. If the cat entry says that it has +4 to hit (which it does), that's what you add to the d20 roll. Remember that small (or smaller) creatures get a bonus to attack rolls due to their size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat), which is often where a lot of this bonus comes from, as well as a bonus to dexterity (so you see a lot of small creatures with Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse) as a bonus feat).

Take the cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm), for example: normally as a 1/2 HD Animal with a strength of 3 you'd expect a -4 penalty to attack rolls. However, the cat is Tiny (+2 to hit and AC), making it -2 to attack rolls. The cat also has Weapon Finesse, meaning that it adds its Dexterity modifier (+2) to attack rolls instead of its Strength modifier (-4), meaning its total bonus to its attack roll is +4 (+2 Size, +2 Dexterity).

elpollo has the right of it. Monster entries generally have all static bonuses or penalties factored in already, so you can pretty much always use them as-is.

It may be helpful, though, to cross-check various entries to gain a better understanding of how their numbers are derived; the SRD is quite accurate, and this will help you later when you advance your monsters or whatever.


You should probably read my Monster Handbook, link in sig.

This is also good advice for further study; his handbook is quite comprehensive and rather entertaining as well:smallcool:.

[chomskola]

Thanks guys for the replies so far, the monster guide looks really helpful. ON th subject of monsters..since technically a monster is not dead until it reaches -9 HP, I am gonna assume that DMS treat 0 hp for monsters as effective death as far as the game is concerned and only worry about -1 to -9 for monster NPC's. I don't think it is covered in the Core rulebooks, but if you take the rules to their logical conclusion....we would be running everything we do for PCS and NPCs for monsters, which would slow the game down horribly? any thoughts?

[Urpriest]

Thanks guys for the replies so far, the monster guide looks really helpful. ON th subject of monsters..since technically a monster is not dead until it reaches -9 HP, I am gonna assume that DMS treat 0 hp for monsters as effective death as far as the game is concerned and only worry about -1 to -9 for monster NPC's. I don't think it is covered in the Core rulebooks, but if you take the rules to their logical conclusion....we would be running everything we do for PCS and NPCs for monsters, which would slow the game down horribly? any thoughts?

That has nothing to do with monsters and everything to do with whether you care about what happens to them. If a monster reaches 0hp and falls unconscious, it is going to bleed out and maybe stabilize. That doesn't mean you need to keep track of it, just like you don't need to keep track of it for a PC. You only keep track of it (for a PC or NPC) if there's a chance that it will matter: i.e., if there is a possibility that the monster or PC will survive to come up later in the story. In the case of monsters, if you've got a healer wandering around helping the monsters, or if they've got the ability to regenerate when they're at negative hit points, or if they're likely to chase the PCs down for revenge if they stabilize and recover, then you keep track of their hit points. If not, then you can ignore them, just like you can ignore it when a PC is at -1 if nobody will ever come to rescue them.

Also, remember that a creature at 0hp can still take a partial action, so you can't ignore monsters if they're at precisely 0hp.

[Keld Denar]

Unless its undead or a swarm or some constructs, then it is dead at 0.

My PCs in my RL investigation game like to stablize enemies if it is feasable in combat so that they can take the foe prisoner and question/charm them. PCs in the dungeoncrawl game I play in generally don't because they are too busy looting and looking for the next encounter. Life is a bit more brutal and straight forward in the Underdark so far...

In one game, it is tracked because it is relevant. In another, it isn't because it isn't. It is up to you to determine whether or not it is or isn't important for your group. Its not that hard to track, though, especially if you are using initiative cards or other initiative tracking method. Every time the bad guys turn comes up, knock off another hp from where they were til they bleed out.