Arrows and Bows! Got a question!

[killem2]

Tried slinging around in the sticky with no luck, want to see if anyone here has the answer.

When you use these specialty arrows such as found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.msg15067#msg15067):

Arrow, Serpentstongue (3 gp for 20x) [RoTW Pg. 165]
These arrows are used for sundering. Amusingly enough, they deal both, Piercing and Slashing damage. They also deal full damage to objects with hardness less than 5. Again, something to keep around. They also don't have any drawbacks compared to normal arrows besides also dealing Slashing damage so you could actually consider replacing your normal arrows with these.


or

Arrow, Flight (160 gp for 20x) [AE Pg. 5, DR349 Pg. 29]
These are normal arrows except with x2 criticals, and they add 25' to the attacks' range increment. Somewhat similar to Swiftwing Arrows in function, but these actually increase your range increments and your maximum range while Swiftwings make it easier to land shots at a longer range, and lose out on base damage instead of critical multiplier. Probably a tool you'll want in your repertoire, though these are fairly expensive like many of these special arrows.


Are their damage dice based on a long bow, or are they based on their own build? What if you use a greatbow or bone bow? or maybe use them as a small sized shortbow?

[nedz]

In interpreting the rules one normally uses the principle: Specific Trumps General

In this case the general rule is the damage from the bow, except where details of any specific arrow rule over-ride this.

This should allow you to work out the answer to any of your questions.

[sonofzeal]

There's also the principals "RAMS" or "Rules As Makes Sense". Also "Ask Your DM".

My guess is that arrow variants are intended to deal damage based on the bow used. A Serpentstongue fired from a shortbow shouldn't do the same damage as one fired from a Compsite Greatbow. Check with your DM. That's always the most reliable course.

[Alefiend]

I have no official answer to point you to, but the damage of an arrow is a function of the arrow's mass, head, and velocity. If the arrow is designed for bow A (meaning it is of appropriate length for a full draw), it should do the damage of that type of bow when shot from it.

If there's a mismatch between the arrow and the bow, use the lesser damage. Either the arrow is too short to accommodate a full draw, or it's too heavy and stiff to be effective when shot from a weaker bow. There should also be an issue with accuracy, because of the Archer's Paradox, but let's not worry about that. D&D/PF isn't a simulation.

Alternatively, assume all arrows are always the appropriate length etc., and always use the bow's damage.

[Gavinfoxx]

Bow:
Livewood-Races of the Wild. Doubles Masterwork cost, or +300.
Masterwork +300
Elvencraft +300 Races of the Wild
Long Range: +100 Dragon 358
Composite Longbow +100
Mighty +2: +200
+1 Enhancement: 2000

Total for bow: 3300 gp

Default arrow: 1/20 gp (PHB)
Serpentstongue +2/20 gp (MotW) (Each arrow costs 3/20 gp)
Laenar Wood (Dragon Annual 5) 1 gp+9/20 gp (Each arrow costs 15 sp)
Flight Arrow (Dragon 349) +7/20 gp (Each arrow costs 8/20 gp)
Cold Iron +1/20 gp (Each arrow costs 2/20 gp)

1+2+9+7+1 = 20/20 gp, ie, 1 gp
1+1 = 2 gp

50 special arrows: 100 gp

Long Range bow (Dragon Magazine #358)

Each 2 GP arrow:
-Overcomes DR as cold iron
-has +10' + 25% of the bow firing it of range increment range (a Masterwork Composite Longbow has a RI of 110. +20 from Long Range, +25% (round down to +30 feet) from Laenar wood arrow, +10 from Flight Arrow, for a total of 170' R.I.)
-Does Slashing & Piercing damage
-Does full damage of objects of hardness 5 or less
-Counts as Magical due to the bow

The bow:
-Counts as a Quarterstaff
-Can repair itself in Sunlight

Total for bow and 50 arrows: 3400 gp

[killem2]

thanks for that, not sure it helps me understand arrow damage but the extra tips are welcomed! :)

[Gavinfoxx]

The arrow damage is just the plain bow damage, plus enhancement, plus strength from a strong person using the draw of a Mighty bow. Nothing there reduces or increases the size of the dice.

So yes, Shortbow, Longbow, Greatbow, the size of the bow in question (small, medium, large), etc. That all impacts what dice you use. None of those arrow or bow options shown in the thing change the dice you use. Yes, there ARE things that lower the size of the damage dice (like certain arrow types), but none of that stuff listed contributes.

[Gavinfoxx]

MEDIUM:
Shortbow, Composite Shortbow: 1d6
Longbow, Aquatic Longbow, Double Elven Bow, Footbow, Composite Longbow: 1d8
Bonebow, Greatbow: 1d10

[killem2]

The arrow damage is just the plain bow damage, plus enhancement, plus strength from a strong person using the draw of a Mighty bow. Nothing there reduces or increases the size of the dice.

So yes, Shortbow, Longbow, Greatbow, the size of the bow in question (small, medium, large), etc. That all impacts what dice you use. None of those arrow or bow options shown in the thing change the dice you use. Yes, there ARE things that lower the size of the damage dice (like certain arrow types), but none of that stuff listed contributes.

Oh I see, after looking in races of the wild, it actually lists the type of bow as well.

That helps and now makes complete sense!!

[killem2]

I had time to read over that dragon magazine with the flight arrow but I think it is listed as 1 per 8gp, not sure where you are seeing you can get 20 for 8gp.

Also , I can't find any info on the livewood stuff or the elven craft in races of the wild.:smallconfused:

[Gavinfoxx]

Livewood is in Eberron campaign Setting, and the Wildwood version is in Races of the Wild. Same sort of stuff - wood that heals itself.

Elvencraft bow is in the equipment section of races of the wild, I believe.

[killem2]

Ahh I see. I really like those flight arrows,but mighty mighty pricey (8g each is alot for range)

I decided to go ahead and give up on melee stuff and focus a lot more on range.

I picked up Mercantile Background as a feel so I could start off with some more funds (got 900+max starting class money+300) since I am a exoticist fighter I got 1440. I bought 2x large masterwork long range bone bows.

Sure I take an improper size penalty but I deal more damage, all at a current range of 210ft! Not bad! for level 1! :smallbiggrin:

Should be really fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

You sure it is 8 gp each? Dragon 349 I think. Crystalkeep has them at 2/5 gp. Waitaminute, that's different than what I wrote. Huh. 8 gp for 20 would be 4/10 gp, or 8/20 gp, like I wrote. See if you can get your DM to rule it as 8 gp for 20?

[Daftendirekt]

What is Mighty +2 for 200gp? Is that just the STR bonus for being Composite?

[Gavinfoxx]

"Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost."

My Cleric Archer had a 14 str.

[killem2]

here is what it shows in dragon. maybe I am reading it wrong.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/ica171/Brandon%20Misc/example-2.jpg

[nedz]

here is what it shows in dragon. maybe I am reading it wrong.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/ica171/Brandon%20Misc/example-2.jpg

OK - thats the table, what does the text block say ?

[killem2]

OK - thats the table, what does the text block say ?

This part?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i168/ica171/example2.jpg

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, if the assumption is that they're being fired from a stock standard longbow, then 25ft is 1/4 of the normal range, which means you have a case of it being based on the natural range increments of your bow.

So, as always, ask your DM :smallwink:

Also, I suggest grabbing Serrenwood (BoED) as the material of your Bow rather than Liveoak/Wildoak. If you need your Bow to be repaired, bug the Wizard to prepare Mending a few times. Its just a cantrip, after all.

But with Serrenwood, you get non-magical Ghost Touch on your bow. You'll never need to be afraid of ghosts ever again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc)

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I would've gotten Serrenwood, but it was cost prohibitive at the time. And I wanted something at least SOMEWHAT better than normal wood...

[killem2]

Well, since I am a bit limited with funds, I picked up the mercantile background feat (my party will love that lol), and with the extra money, I snagged:

2x Large size, Long Range, Masterwork Bone Bows, with serpent tongue arrows.

I have farshot, so It has a pretty decent range, and doing 2d8+4 is pretty sweet. I am an exoticist fighter, so I have comp greatbow as a prof, when I get more money.

With all the HD a thrikreen gets, and being a fighter at level 1 along with masterwork, I think I have almost nullified the penalties.

I will be picking up some of those flight arrows when funds are more available.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you are... what? A level 5 character or so?

Maybe level 6? What with Thri-kreen HD, LA, and the Exoticist level(s)?

Which version of Thri-kreen are you using?

If you are a higher level character, why don't you have appropriate wealth per level??

[Golden Ladybug]

Did you take the LA+1/2RHD Thri-Keen from Shining South? Its probably the better choice overall, and Monstrous Humanoid isn't actually that bad, as Racial Hit Dice goes.

HOWEVER, there is something to be said for Psionic Archers, which the 2LA/2HD version might be acceptable for. Using a combination of Dissolving Weapon, Fell Shot and Manyshot, they can pump out a really very large amount of arrows with great accuracy, and actually doesn't require that high a Manifester Level to be effective. With 4+ Psychic Warrior levels, you grab an additional 2 feats and Dissolving Weapon, along with some other choice powers (Expansion, Vigor and Detect Psionics are all quite nice). You also have the option to choose a Psionic Mantle with the Mind's Eye ACF. You can make yourself Wis-SAD by taking Zen Archery, making up for both your poor Will Save progression and giving you a bunch of extra power points.

Practised Manifester brings up your PP and ML, which'll help you with longevity and augmenting your Powers. Psionic Meditation will let you make Fell Shots more often, all but negating the penalty to Manyshot.

Whenever you have 3 or more Power Points you don't need, sink them into manifesting Dissolving Weapon on your Arrows (+4d6 Acid Damage is tasty).

[Telonius]

The only time the arrow itself (rather than the bow) matters for damage is if the arrow is used as a weapon. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows):

An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2).

... Hmm. Normally improvised weapons can't be enchanted. But arrows obviously can. Wonder if you could work that into a Drunken Master build somehow.

[killem2]

Lets confirm!

I was under the impression that as a Thri-Kreen (yup from shining south!), I get 2HD to start, and then another HD for being LA +1, and then another HD for being a level 1 fighter.

That should give me a +4 bab.

Then my dex is 23, so that is +6.

I have point blank shot, masterwork, and strange strike, though of the three only masterwork is always on, so that should be +7.

Then I have to take away for my bows being one size bigger, back down to +5.

Isn't that it? Seems like I am missing something though.

[Eldest]

You would have 2 monstrous HD, 1 level in fighter, so BAB would be either 2 or 3. I dunno if the HD give full or half BAB. You do not get HD from LA. If you have 23 Dex you get a +6, to a total of +8. You would get another +1 from the masterwork, giving you +9 to hit. No idea what you are talking about with the taking away for a bigger bow.

[killem2]

You would have 2 monstrous HD, 1 level in fighter, so BAB would be either 2 or 3. I dunno if the HD give full or half BAB. You do not get HD from LA. If you have 23 Dex you get a +6, to a total of +8. You would get another +1 from the masterwork, giving you +9 to hit. No idea what you are talking about with the taking away for a bigger bow.

I bought two large sized bows (i'm a medium creature).

The dex of 23, was from making my self level 4, from assuming the LA +1 was also a HD, but it isn't so yeah It would be 3 total.

Since I am a monstrous humanoid, then it is BAB as a fighter.

[Gavinfoxx]

So 2 hd + 1 LA + 1 Exoticist = ECL 4, with 3 HD.

You are a level four character, so why don't you have level 4 wealth by level? That should be...ah... 5400 gp, I think.

[nedz]

You are ECL 4, but only 3 HD: so you don't get the stat bump until next level.
You should have level 4 WBL though.

[Chronos]

Racial HD and LA are a disadvantage, not an advantage. Racial hit dice count as class levels, except they're usually not as good as levels in real classes. And LA is even worse: It counts for your total effective character level, but gives you no benefit at all. A Thri-Kreen isn't really great in a first-level party; it's not part of a first-level party at all. You can't play a thri-kreen until you're level 3, at which point you don't even have a class yet.

[killem2]

So 2 hd + 1 LA + 1 Exoticist = ECL 4, with 3 HD.

You are a level four character, so why don't you have level 4 wealth by level? That should be...ah... 5400 gp, I think.

My dm for this session said that, everyone starts with 900gp + max starting gold for your class.

Also, he said we start at level 2, and if you are an la +1, you start as level 1. So that's why I am a level 1 fighter.


Racial HD and LA are a disadvantage, not an advantage. Racial hit dice count as class levels, except they're usually not as good as levels in real classes. And LA is even worse: It counts for your total effective character level, but gives you no benefit at all. A Thri-Kreen isn't really great in a first-level party; it's not part of a first-level party at all. You can't play a thri-kreen until you're level 3, at which point you don't even have a class yet.

I'd stay starting at a level 3 character (bonus wise) with level 1s or possibly other LA +1 races (not sure what everyone else is picking), I'm ahead of the curve.



You are ECL 4, but only 3 HD: so you don't get the stat bump until next level.
You should have level 4 WBL though.

I'll ask my dm about it.

[Aeryr]

A thri keen archer?

You are definetly going to get a lot of penalties to shoot with that. And you are also using weapons not appropiate for your size :smalleek:

2 monstrous humanoid HD for 2 BAB + 1 fighter level = 3 BAB + dexterity (you upped it to 23 at "level 4" so are you starting at 22? let's assume so) 6 + 1 masterwork - 4 using large weapons (unless you have monkey grip) - 4 fighting with two weapons (assuming multiple weapon fighting)

for a total of +2/+2 having to take a full round action to attack with both. I will hands down prefer the 10 to hit with one attack and still be able to move.

[killem2]

A thri keen archer?

You are definetly going to get a lot of penalties to shoot with that. And you are also using weapons not appropiate for your size :smalleek:

2 monstrous humanoid HD for 2 BAB + 1 fighter level = 3 BAB + dexterity (you upped it to 23 at "level 4" so are you starting at 22? let's assume so) 6 + 1 masterwork - 4 using large weapons (unless you have monkey grip) - 4 fighting with two weapons (assuming multiple weapon fighting)

for a total of +2/+2 having to take a full round action to attack with both. I will hands down prefer the 10 to hit with one attack and still be able to move.

I think I must have something off then.

I didn't think I incur a -4 for using a weapon 1 size larger, I thought I get -2 per weapon.

I thought that with a 22 dex, bab of 3, and mw, I would be at a total of +10 to hit, take away -4 for multiweapon fighting, and then take away -2 for improperly sized weapon.

So I would still be sitting at +4.

Unless I am reading the improper sized weapon section wrong.

[Aeryr]

Actually we both were.


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.



You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size.

I'll say that the bow is already a two handed weapon. You might be able to reduce it, and still use it, because even if it turns into a one handed weapon you need two hands to use. But if you increase it, it would stop being usable by a medium creature. If you want to discuss that it is a two handed weapon regardless of its size (it is not the same as needing two hands to be used regardless of its size) then you could, in theory, get a Colosal +++ bow and use it with your two hands (with a huge penalty).

Summing up, talk to your DM.

[killem2]

My dm says its ok for me to use a large bone bow, as a medium creature with a -2 penalty as per the book.

He has allowed me to start with 4000gp + 240 (max for fighter).

Sadly I will have to put this PC on hold until the party is at least level 4. Which is ok with me.

[Aeryr]

Maybe try it with a diopsid? Dragon Magazine Compendium.

[Gavinfoxx]

My dm for this session said that, everyone starts with 900gp + max starting gold for your class.

Also, he said we start at level 2, and if you are an la +1, you start as level 1. So that's why I am a level 1 fighter.


Uh. It sounds like neither you nor the DM realize that you are ACTUALLY a level Four character. NOT a level 2 character. What it SOUNDS like he was doing was trying to allow 0 RHD, +1 LA options, as well as just 2 class levels. After all, he DID say that you could be LA+1 with a race, and he DID say that you had 900 gp, the level 2 wealth number, and he DID say you are starting at level 2.

THAT MEANS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY A THRI-KREEN!!!!!! IF YOU BRING A THRI KREEN INTO A LEVEL 2 GAME, JUST BECAUSE YOUR DM DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THAT 1 RHD = 1 LEVEL, YOU ARE CHEATING!!!!

What he meant you could play under those rules are things like:

Dark Creatures
Aasimar
Draconic Creatures
Catfolk
Hobgoblins
Mineral Warriors
Air Genasi

etc. etc., which would have 1 class level rather than 2.

REMIND him that both your Racial HD and your Level Adjustment each counts as a level, so you are technically starting as a level four character. That's 2 RHD + 1 LA + 1 Class Level.

Also remind him that if you want to play a four armed bug which is actually a level 2 character under the rules he mentioned, you could play a Diopsid Fighter, which is: 1 LA + 1 Class level.

[killem2]

Maybe try it with a diopsid? Dragon Magazine Compendium.

I found that, but are you sure it is 3.5? text refers to level caps and refers to bonuses to pick pocketing in percentages which was from old AD&D 2ed stuff




Uh. It sounds like neither you nor the DM realize that you are ACTUALLY a level Four character. NOT a level 2 character. What it SOUNDS like he was doing was trying to allow 0 RHD, +1 LA options, as well as just 2 class levels. After all, he DID say that you could be LA+1 with a race, and he DID say that you had 900 gp, the level 2 wealth number, and he DID say you are starting at level 2.

THAT MEANS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY A THRI-KREEN!!!!!! IF YOU BRING A THRI KREEN INTO A LEVEL 2 GAME, JUST BECAUSE YOUR DM DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THAT 1 RHD = 1 LEVEL, YOU ARE CHEATING!!!!

What he meant you could play under those rules are things like:

Dark Creatures
Aasimar
Draconic Creatures
Catfolk
Hobgoblins
Mineral Warriors
Air Genasi

etc. etc., which would have 1 class level rather than 2.

REMIND him that both your Racial HD and your Level Adjustment each counts as a level, so you are technically starting as a level four character. That's 2 RHD + 1 LA + 1 Class Level.

Also remind him that if you want to play a four armed bug which is actually a level 2 character under the rules he mentioned, you could play a Diopsid Fighter, which is: 1 LA + 1 Class level.




Sadly I will have to put this PC on hold until the party is at least level 4. Which is ok with me.


that part, is fixed, calm down :smalltongue:

I am trying to find the 3.5 info on this other 4 armed race though

[Gavinfoxx]

The book is Dragon Compendium Volume 1.

Also, Strongarm Bracers can let you wield large weapons without penalty.

[killem2]

The book is Dragon Compendium Volume 1.

Also, Strongarm Bracers can let you wield large weapons without penalty.

I found it, yeah, -2 dex, that's a big turn off, I'll wait to level 4 and bring that thri-kreen in with everyone else.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why is -2 Dex a big deal for archers? Just take Zen Archery.

[killem2]

Why is -2 Dex a big deal for archers? Just take Zen Archery.

Won't i net less bonus overall doing that? i have a 22 dex with TK, but with that other dude, I get -2 dex and only +2 to int. and -2 to str

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't NEED Dex to be a good archer.

I have made a great archer, with 14 str and 17 wis, at level 4:

http://www.dndonlinegames.com/profiler/view.php?id=30034

She recently managed +14 to hit and 1d8+7 damage with her bow! It could have been +17 to hit and 1d8+10 damage, if she had rolled better.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

[Vizzerdrix]

He'll need at least a 17 if he wants to get into the manyshot (or greater rapid shot) lines of feats.

[killem2]

Alight, since this character will be coming in as a level 4, when the party gets level 4 (my dm is writing it that way), I will start with 4240.

I am interested in all these self repairing materials but I've look at all the descriptions and none of them mention self healing.

I am going to use a master work, long range, dragonbone, bone bow.

Livewood increases hardiness, but needs a wooden part.

Serrenwood makes it ghostly but nothing about repairing.

And I can't seem to find wildoak/wildwood or whatever it is called.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wildwood in races of the wild, pg 169, heals in sunlight.

Livewood in Eberron Campaign Setting is still alive, and is implied to heal like Wildwood, though it doesn't actually say that.

Serrenwood doesn't self heal, but it has a nonmagical ghost touch, a useful property as well.

[killem2]

Here's what I decided with. The wildwood thing is only talking about armor so I passed on it.

I bought 80 Flight arrows at the 8gp a pop cost.
I bought 2 medium sized Bone Bows, with long range and dragonbone addons.

So Right now I have 140ft on the bow alone. I have farshot, I have flight arrows. So I believe that is 300ft if the math works out right.

I bought a mithral shirt also.

[Aeryr]

What does long distance do (not familiar with it)?

Because with a bow of 140ft range and farshot you are getting 210...

[Vizzerdrix]

Would your DM allow you to refluff the self healing wood as troll bones?

Oooh. that gives me an idea for a character!

[killem2]

Would your DM allow you to refluff the self healing wood as troll bones?

Oooh. that gives me an idea for a character!

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Also I might be doing the range wrong.

When you have these add ons and percentages what order do they go in?

[Aeryr]

You read them and add what they say. I don't know what long range does but far shot increases the range of your weapon by .5

so it would be 140 + whatever long range gives + .5*140 + your arrows.