Revival (A Classic style WW)

[BishFish]

Hey guys,

its been a few years since i've been on, and I thought it would be fun to start a WW game. just the normal classic version. I'll take up to twenty people, but If I don't get enough by next weekend, I'll start with however many we have. Here we go!

On the western side of the Appalachians in West Virginia, there was a small coal mining town called Mining Town. the main street, called Access Road 2, had one general store, a tavern, an inn, though no one really came to Mining Town except for inspectors and businessmen associated with the mine, the sheriff's office, and a small baptist church. Mining Town was usually pretty quiet, though recently there has been more businessmen and inspectors coming through, and all of the miner's are on edge. the rumor is that something was discovered in the mine. no one knows what except for the miner who discovered it, and he hasn't been seen in a few days.

There will be 4 werewolves, 3 masons, 1 baner, 1 fool, 1 seer, and 1 devil.

**This is not actually one of the classic games, it just has basic rules.
Player list(19/20):

The_Grimmace (Wolf)
Elemental
TheLaughingMan
Vesth
Ramsus
usourselves&we (Villager)
RuneBoundShade
Grue Bait
JollyChris
Gray Mage (Wolf)
Gnomish Wanderer
Penguinator
cd4
52.5 Lemons
bladescape (Villager)
Ceresian Memento
MethosH
Loreni333 (Villager)
Saposhiente

[Zjoot]

I'll join! Classic is my favorite.

[Elemental]

I'll participate.

[TheLaughingMan]

Well, until Universal Smash Bros. starts up, I suppose I can indulge in another game.

Count me in! :smallsmile:

[Vesth]

In! :smallbiggrin:

[Ramsus]

I'm in. -words to fill up space go here-

[usourselves&we]

We would like to say in.

[RuneboundShade]

Interesting, 3 wolves out of 20 players.... Nah, that's townisided, you should at least put a devil in, and putting in a fool as well could work.

Also, yeah, I'm in.

[Grue Bait]

In, please.

[JollyChris]

Well i've never played in one of these games but I'd like to try so I'm in.

[Zjoot]

Woohoo! I love getting new players, I think our little community is in desperate need of them.

[Penguinator]

Agreeing with Rune that a fool and a devil would make things interesting.

[Gray Mage]

Agreeing with Rune that a fool and a devil would make things interesting.

+1 to that.

I think I can fit a small game in my schedule. :smalltongue:
In.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Welcome to the club, JollyChris. I told ya this was fun.

Also I'm totally in this one.

[Grue Bait]

Well i've never played in one of these games but I'd like to try so I'm in.

Hey, welcome! You couldn't have joined a more perfect game for your first.

[Penguinator]

Sorry, I thought posting here was sufficient to say I'm in.

I guess I thought wrong.

[RuneboundShade]

Okay, we have another werewolf! That makes the bare minimum of werwolves you want in a 20 player game, We've also got a fool and masons, which kinda balance each other out...

No devil? :smallfrown:

[Internet Flea]

I guess I'll join this game.

[cd4]

I think I will join this game.

Question: Is the guardian angel a baner, careless baner or someone who will sacrifice themselves to save someone else?

[Penguinator]

I'm still going to fight for a devil, or at the very least, a beast.

Last time I was in a game with no wolf power-roles (okay, none that were actually playing. We had an alpha who disappeared before the game started, and that was it) we complained until the narrator gave us a mercy scry. The game was still horribly skewed towards town.

And with Masons, the wolves need some fighting chance of winning, and a Devil is a good director of that.

[Zjoot]

You realize that he was trying to run a traditional werewolf game, right? Not our version of Classic, which has several added roles that aren't in the usual. From what I've seen it's usually a guardian angel (baner) seer, and wolves. I was actually sort of disappointed when he added masons and a fool. Devil would just make this mini-classic.

EDIT: Oh wait, that wasn't his intent, must've been wishful thinking on my part.

[Ramsus]

Well, if he removed the masons then wolves wouldn't need the devil certainly but, with them still in they do. Fool I don't know, could take it or leave it. It adds advantage to the wolves, not town. I'd actually be somewhat interested in seeing how just baner, seer, villagers, and wolves works out.

[BishFish]

Ok, There have been enough posts asking for a devil, beast, or some change to the roles I have chosen. Here is why I chose the ones I have:
Werewolves: duh.
Guardian Angel/Baner (They're the same thing): this is a necessity for any good ww game.
Seer: this makes it interesting because the seer knows who's evil, but can't tell, because then they'll be silenced! Its funny.
Fool: because a seer knowing that they are actually right is boring.
Masons: an allied force similar to the werewolves is good for reasons similar to the seer.

Why not other roles:
Devil: as soon as the devil finds a werewolf and the baner, the game is over.
Beast: I just didn't think of it.

If someone can convince me that adding a devil won't imbalance the game, I will add it.

Any other questions?

[Internet Flea]

Devil: as soon as the devil finds a werewolf and the baner, the game is over.

If someone can convince me that adding a devil won't imbalance the game, I will add it.

Seer declaring in thread and the Baner protecting him all game is equally broken. Probably more so, since the Masons, Baner and Fool can claim to him then and that's five fewer scries than he'd need otherwise.

And even if the Devil finds the Baner that's not going to stop the Seer from announcing himself once he's found a few wolves.

[Penguinator]

PMs are allowed in this game.

That in itself means that Seers are broken. They find the Baner, they get protected until the Baner kicks it, which if they're smart, won't happen.

The Devil hasn't got such protection. He can pretend he's the seer and get lynched horribly when they learn he isn't. He can stay quiet, but then the wolves randomly take him out. Hell, make him blind and not immune to NKs. Just put in a Devil.

Wolves with zero power roles isn't balanced. Ever. Except real life games, which run by somewhat different rules anyway. (At least, the ones I've played)

[Zjoot]

Not quite right there. Wolves without power roles are balanced when there aren't too many village roles. The real classic doesn't have wolf power roles and it's played in multiple forums and real life.

[Penguinator]

I just said that. I've played games in real life with just seer and baner. Of course, in a real life game, at least the way I've played, there's no way for the seer to get into contact with the baner. Not nearly as broken.

Let me put it this way. If there are masons, there must be a Devil. Masons are what wreck the balance.

[Zjoot]

Yeah, that's true. I just got myself wanting to play a really basic game. :smallwink:

EDIT: And besides that, I just realized that many of those games are played without pm's, which balances it a lot. The way it is though, I think this game needs a devil as well. (Plus it's such a fun role to play in Classic)

[Ramsus]

I'd have to agree to either add the Devil or drop masons and fool and make the game a no PM game to more simulate an irl game.

[RuneboundShade]

Game is never decided for either side, no matter what happens, I recently saw a game with 4 werewolves and 6 villagers, and guess what? The village ended up winning, and that wasn't because the wolves were stupid, it was because the players on the village side were epic.

Okay, the balancing of a devil... then I'll explain exactly how devil is balanced...

Best case scenario, the N1 and N2 scries are that of wolf and seer, devil contacts the wolf, they get the seer killed. The players have to go for the rest of the game without a seer, and, usually, soon enough, the baner dies as well, along with some masons.

However, as soon as 1 wolf is lynched, you'll usually start to see others go as well, as town NEVER lynches random, so town could still figure out the wolves, and still win the game, as demonstrated in the 4 wolf 6 villager game I saw.

Now, let's look at another scenario, the seer scries the devil and a wolf N1 and N2. The seer contacts the wolves and convinces them that he's the devil, and that the devil is the seer/fool. The wolves NK the devil that night, the seer claims in the middle of the day, the baner protects him that night, after killing the wolf that he scried earlier. The Masons contact the seer afterwards and the game is practically over, it's very hard for wolves to win from that point.

Thus the wolves CANNOT trust someone who contacts them as devil, therefore, the devil doesn't even begin to be broken. :smallwink:

[bladescape]

/in here for me to get in because I need 10 characters.

[52.5 Lemons]

I'll join... It's been a while since I've posted on here as well. Not quite a few years though.

[Internet Flea]

Losing reliable internet, so I'll have to drop out.

[CeresianMemento]

I'm game. Things have been pretty quiet recently here. I could use a reason to stay.

[MethosH]

I think I'll try this. :smallsmile:

[Loreni333]

A simple game for my first one on GItP fourms? Count me in!

[Vesth]

:O

Welcome to the family,Loreni333!

[Zjoot]

New peeps! Yay!

*hugs*

[52.5 Lemons]

New peeps! Yay!

*hugs*

I remember when I was new... the good old days when everybody felt bad for lynching the new comer and I could get away with living a bit longer than I deserved.

EDIT: does "comer" have two m's? I feel like it should but chrome is not giving me any underlines.

Also just realized that we only need two more players until we can start!

[Grue Bait]

Sympathy for new-comers? Bah! On my first game I got killed night two and liked it! And my second game I got beasted day one, but did I go cryin' home to mommy? No!

Anyway, welcome, Loreni, to the structured games! Try to stay out of Gnomish's pants while you're here, will ya? :smalltongue:

[TheLaughingMan]

Sympathy for new-comers? Bah! On my first game I got killed night two and liked it! And my second game I got beasted day one, but did I go cryin' home to mommy? No!

That's nothing. I died Day 1 of my first game out of the power of sheer stupidity. And I was the Seer. :smallsigh:

[Grue Bait]

Yeah, well, I have to walk 10 miles in the snow, uphill both ways just to play WW! :smalltongue:

That does suck though. But I'd rather die because of my own bad playing rather than bad luck and knowing the guy who happened to be the seer IRL.

[Penguinator]

Heh heh. 'Tis Mutants you refer to?

[Internet Flea]

That's nothing. I died Day 1 of my first game out of the power of sheer stupidity. And I was the Seer. :smallsigh:

And the Baner died that night.
That game was fun to read.

[Ramsus]

In my first game I was a Fool and engaged in an epic battle with a wolf claimed Seer which majorly effected the outcome of the game, which lead to my team winning (though I did die). Uh...wait, that's not bad.

Well in my second game I got kicked out for accidentally breaking the rules because they were poorly phrased and it sounded very much like to me that someone was asking me to do exactly what I did, then they outed me for doing it. (Instead of being polite, deleting the PM without reading it and explaining to me it was against the rules and not having ratted me out, ruining a game for a new player. (Though I still had a decent impact on the outcome of that game post-mortem as well. Actually...based on the information I wasn't supposed to have given the person I got kicked out for sending it to who didn't get kicked out for reading and then sharing it....hey wait. Wow, now I remember why I was so pissed off about how that worked out.) )

[CeresianMemento]

A part of me wants to get assigned the role of Fool. You're "mostly" harmless, but in the right situation you can act as a surrogate seer on a very minor level. Still, there's a extra sense of challenge that being the Fool provides. I am assuming that one can scry oneself in this game. (Can a Fool/Seer actually do that here?)

[Penguinator]

Fool/Seer generally scry each other as Seer. So, scrying yourself wouldn't help at all.

[Internet Flea]

(Though I still had a decent impact on the outcome of that game post-mortem as well.)

You dying cost me my lynch protection halfway through a day I was starting to rely on it, and left a town player practically unkillable, so yeah, major impact.

[Grue Bait]

Heh heh. 'Tis Mutants you refer to?

Yeah... Probably my favorite game, fluff-wise, but I was told to be a wolf while Grimm was the seer. Not a streak of luck there. And my luck got worse by the first Dragonspire Killers.

[CeresianMemento]

Fool/Seer generally scry each other as Seer. So, scrying yourself wouldn't help at all.

Of course. Silly me. After all, being able to tell if you are a Fool or a Seer after one round would be far too easy, wouldn't it? Yes. Yes it would.

[BishFish]

The sheriff lived in a small cabin a few miles into the woods. He liked the seclusion. That’s why he moved to Mining Town in the first place. The crazy, dangerous life of a city cop was not for him. Recently, with all of the mystery surrounding the mine, he was a little on edge. Normally all he ever does is lock up the drunks at the end of the night, but the people who came here to “inspect” the mine gave him a bad feeling. This morning, he walked into the office, poured himself a cup of coffee, and walked back to the cells. He swung his keys around his finger with practiced ease and unlocked the cell door.
“Mornin’ sher’ff,” mumbled Norman, the town drunk,
“Mornin’ Norman, didn’t you say you were going to go sober?”
“I am, I haven’t had a drink in... “ he looked up at the clock. “when did you put me in here?”
The sheriff chuckled. “go home and take a nap, Norman.”
“Thanks, sherrif, see you tonight.”
Someone ran into the sherrif’s office.
“Sherrif? There’s something you gotta see.”
“I’m coming, don’t freak out.”
Outside, a crowd had gathered around a man lying on the ground. It was the miner who had gone missing a few days ago. The sherrif ran, picked up the miner, and carried him to the sherrif’s office. He had been shot in the back. The blood had already dried on his torn, dirty shirt. As the miner looked at the sherrif, he opened his mouth. Blood driped from the corner of his lips, and he stammered,
“they’re here.”

Ok, i'm going to send out role PMs in a bit, i'll post again to start the day in a bit. we're playing with only three wolves.

[Saposhiente]

In. This has 48/48 hour phases right?
...Wow. You are actually more likely to be a powerrole/wolf than not. This may be inconvenient to my plan...
Also, a way to vote to extend Day would be nice. I'm concerned that my plan may encounter problems of running out of time in the Day.

[BishFish]

saposhiente... you didn't sign up... sorry, but I just sent out role PMs, so I can't add you.
there are 48/48 cycles though.
let the game, begin. it is a voting phase right now.

[Saposhiente]

You edited the post above mine a minute after I posted mine. Go check the timestamps.
(This is what "Recruitment Closed" posts are for)

[Zjoot]

If it's not too much trouble, I don't mind if you reassign roles to include Sapo. In fact, I'd prefer the full 20 players. I'll leave it up to the other players, and yourself of course.

[Gray Mage]

If it's not too much trouble, I don't mind if you reassign roles to include Sapo. In fact, I'd prefer the full 20 players. I'll leave it up to the other players, and yourself of course.

Yeah, me too. I think it'd be fun to see Sapo in a more vanilla game. Plus, the more the merrier, right?

[Grue Bait]

In. This has 48/48 hour phases right?
...Wow. You are actually more likely to be a powerrole/wolf than not. This may be inconvenient to my plan...
Also, a way to vote to extend Day would be nice. I'm concerned that my plan may encounter problems of running out of time in the Day.

Plan? Aw crap. If roles are reassigned, I hope I'm not a wolf. I've been on the bad end of one of your plans.

[Penguinator]

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind role redistribution. It can only get better from here.

[Zjoot]

Hmm, the thing with this is that all the people who were assigned villagers probably won't mind a role reassignment, but the power roles and wolves would be the ones to be concerned about. If you're considering it, I'd PM them and ask them if they're ok with it...

[Penguinator]

That's why I run games with no villagers.

[MethosH]

Haven't checked my role yet. But I'm ok with it.

[Ramsus]

I certainly wouldn't mind either.

[BishFish]

Ok, I changed the roles and included Sapo. check your new role and don't get confused. sorry about that. the day will end 48 hours from now. Get voting!

[Saposhiente]

Cool :smallsmile:
Now, who that isn't new here doesn't post enough? Hm... how about 52.5 Lemons to start. Tell us what you think about Penguinator, Lemons. In general. How active do you find him, is he better at playing town or at playing wolf, etc?
(Note: I will not be pointing at myself this game. It has become clear that I do that too much and the effect is being lost. I have a different plan in mind)
@v: Why not you? You're active enough but don't have a universal reputation.

[Penguinator]

Why me, Sapo?

I'll take a stab at TheLaughingMan. I haven't had the opportunity to do so in a long time.

[TheLaughingMan]

Why me, Sapo?

I'll take a stab at TheLaughingMan. I haven't had the opportunity to do so in a long time.

Ach! My precious organ meats!

A plague upon all of your houses, Peguinator! An annoying plague, covered with boils!


(Note: I will not be pointing at myself this game. It has become clear that I do that too much and the effect is being lost. I have a different plan in mind)

Sapo is the beast!

>_>

<_<

Or, y'know, there could be a saner, more rational explanation. But those aren't very entertaining.

[52.5 Lemons]

Penguinator? Well, he is commonly targeted and I know it upsets him. Honestly, it's been a while since I've played and I haven't really played enough to know what his exact strengths and weaknesses are. For now I will place a random vote on Gnomish Wanderer. All hail the mighty power of the number generator!

[usourselves&we]

Ahh, being the eldest mason would have been fun, none of you are reality jumpers, right? >.> <.< >.>

That is an interesting stratejibby you got there Saposhiente, but now that lemons said something we have to rewrite this post (as in not vote for him) so uh, that is why your name is fully written and now in red. . .If you are commenting about 'stratejibby' we just wanted to say a strange word.

[Ramsus]

And I think I will....vote for Saposhiente.

Edit: Ninja'd by &we. Stop copying me before I do stuff! :smalltongue:

[usourselves&we]

You will never be able to prove that we are a time traveler just doing stuff to mess with you!!!

[Elemental]

Hmmm... The Player List is filled with more suspicion than the guest list from a party attended by Miss Marple...

Edit: And that is an oddly specific denial...

[Saposhiente]

Ramsus, you're voting for me because I... attempted to create an interesting town discussion or at least make oft-inactive people talk? ಠ_ಠ
Edit: *pokes Elemental* Mind voting?

[Zjoot]

Hum...Not sure who to vote for...let's get some more conversation going though: Ramsus, why did you vote for Sapo?

The ninjas are everywhere.

*steals Elemental's hat and runs through the thread*

[Elemental]

My hat!


And yes, I will vote shortly.
Just give me a minute.

Edit: Where were you last night, Gray Mage?

[Grue Bait]

Lemons, it's been too long since I've voted for you. I hope your life-juice quenches my thirst, as well as sweetens my seafood.

[Ramsus]

@The Grimmace: Because at the time nobody else was (as far as I knew) and I wanted to see if he would react by instantly becoming defensive and point at me (which he did). (Also he more or less went out his way to annoy me in Meta.)

Edit: Seriously, look at what I said and then look at the words he immediately put in my mouth (and why mine and not &we's hmmm?).

[Saposhiente]

That's a very interesting definition of "defensive" you have there. What I see is this:
-By starting a dialogue, I am a significant target, as are you now. A significant target is someone who has said things of importance, who is not simply a random face in the crowd.
-Voting for a significant target (usually) isn't a random thing, it's a statement (&we's complaint of inconvenience while saying that he would have gone with my idea is one exception). By voting for me, you were making a statement that you disagreed with what I said and my ideas.
-All I had done was start the day and attempt to get 52.5 to make a statement by which he could be judged, and by the reactions to which others could be judged. While what he said ended up being noncommittal and uninteresting, it did manage to produce reactions.
-You were opposing me doing nothing but fostering talking.
-Talking is good for town.
-Therefore you are suspicious, and I point at suspicious people. I do not point at people only because they are pointing at me; for an example, look at games where I have been with Thufir. Thufir and I disagree on the point of werewolf games, and he often votes for me because of this, but I do not vote back because Thufir voting for me is not suspicious; it is typical.

[TheLaughingMan]

That's a very interesting definition of "defensive" you have there. What I see is this:
-By starting a dialogue, I am a significant target, as are you now. A significant target is someone who has said things of importance, who is not simply a random face in the crowd.

TLM: Stating the obvious will earn you no sympathy! :smalltongue:

-Voting for a significant target (usually) isn't a random thing, it's a statement (&we's complaint of inconvenience while saying that he would have gone with my idea is one exception). By voting for me, you were making a statement that you disagreed with what I said and my ideas.

TLM: Um, they're usually pretty random on day one.

-All I had done was start the day and attempt to get 52.5 to make a statement by which he could be judged, and by the reactions to which others could be judged. While what he said ended up being noncommittal and uninteresting, it did manage to produce reactions.
-You were opposing me doing nothing but fostering talking.
-Talking is good for town.
-Therefore you are suspicious, and I point at suspicious people. I do not point at people only because they are pointing at me; for an example, look at games where I have been with Thufir. Thufir and I disagree on the point of werewolf games, and he often votes for me because of this, but I do not vote back because Thufir voting for me is not suspicious; it is typical.

TLM: "I went out to generate suspicion, and you took the bait! That means you're a wolf!" Um.


Day One super-analysis for no reason just made you a prime suspect. I would point if Peguinator's dagger was not firmly lodged in my small intestine and my prior wild suspicions.

[Ramsus]

That's a load of bull and you know it is. My point didn't say anything except that I was pointing at you. If I was pointing at you for the reasons you stated there would have been something about it in my post. There wasn't. You're just putting words in my mouth and now upping the defensiveness. All you're doing is pointing at me because I pointed at you and are desperately trying to convince more people to point at me in fear that you'll accrue more than the two (more or less random) points you have on you now. And you're really not helping your case as you've just made my case for me and my vote on you is no longer random and instead I'm pointing at you for using wolf logic.

[Saposhiente]

@TheLaughingMan:
It's not super analysis, it's using logic and choosing the person who's most likely to be a wolf (even if they are still more likely to be a villager than a wolf). Go look at any other game I've played here, ever. Notice how every time that I don't do stuff like this, I'm a wolf. It makes me suspicious to some people (bad if I'm a wolf or if I'm town) but gives valuable information and analysis to town (bad if I'm a wolf but good if I'm town). If I was a wolf, I would have no reason to do this (And I never have). As Town, there is some motivation.
@Ramsus:
Stop calling me a wolf just to call me a wolf and actually attempt to refute my logic or provide a counterpoint. You have contributed nothing here.
Notice: I will be gone in 7 minutes, don't be surprised if I don't reply to stuff for some hours.

[Ramsus]

Stop calling my counterpoints not counterpoints because you don't happen to agree with them (or don't acknowledge them because I don't present them in whatever you've randomly deemed "proper" format). Last person who did that to me was Purity in Seer's Academy and just for making me make that mental connection there's no way I'm moving my vote off of you now. All other considerations are now secondary to me because of how extremely annoying and rude I find that kind of behavior.

Your immediate reaction to my (and nobody else's) seemingly random point was to declare me suspect over and above everyone else because it happened to be on you. Your Day 1 logic and plans are utterly irrelevant as we have no actual information to go on yet.

Your stated reason for going for me over &we don't actually make any sense.

"Because I always do/don't do this when a wolf/not a wolf" isn't a viable defense. 1) Because you know that (or don't and are lying). 2) Because if you pay any attention you know nobody pays that much attention to other people and are unlikely to fact check your statement.

I never actually said you were a wolf. You did however take my wolf bait and run with it and are acting very much like a wolf would in this situation. (Of course you're also just acting like you do all the time (wolf or not), which is to hyper analyze with no real information whatsoever and reach conclusions that aren't properly justified and stubbornly cling to them as if you had proof your conclusion you leaped to was correct. The only main difference here is that you took my bait to begin with where normally I believe it would have been overlooked in favor of responding to &we instead.)

[TheLaughingMan]

@TheLaughingMan:
It's not super analysis, it's using logic and choosing the person who's most likely to be a wolf (even if they are still more likely to be a villager than a wolf). Go look at any other game I've played here, ever. Notice how every time that I don't do stuff like this, I'm a wolf. It makes me suspicious to some people (bad if I'm a wolf or if I'm town) but gives valuable information and analysis to town (bad if I'm a wolf but good if I'm town). If I was a wolf, I would have no reason to do this (And I never have). As Town, there is some motivation.

I remember doing something like this my first game. I tried to pull a Fleeing Coward as the seer and nab all the wolves early on, and ended up backpedaling so hard I was lynched by the end of the day. Take my advice: If you really are a townie, just fess up to being suspicious and stop pinning the blame on Rasmus (who, for the record, I am unsure of). You're only digging a deeper hole for yourself by being paranoid.


@Ramsus:
Stop calling me a wolf just to call me a wolf and actually attempt to refute my logic or provide a counterpoint. You have contributed nothing here.
Notice: I will be gone in 7 minutes, don't be surprised if I don't reply to stuff for some hours.

Actually, I went back and tried to refute some of your points back in my previous post. Your argument basically whittles down to finding Rasmus suspicious because you made yourself look suspicious/he used a flimsy vote on day one, both of which are pitiful arguments comrade, no offense.

EDIT: Heh, I didn't know the Fun would start this early. :smallbiggrin:

[usourselves&we]

*hula dancing for the duration of the post.*
Gee Sapo, you sure like to bring up how you play as a wolf a whole lot. . .
We can do that as well while bolding random words or sentences.
things to get at the store:
-We are never this insane as a wolf or power role, so we have got to be a normal towny./flailing arms
-grape soda
-butter
-milk
-eggs
-candy bar
-crickets
-sleep
-Hey look a people said stuff before us, totally proves we do not have power over time, eh Elemental? Yes, we are just a normal human, nothing less. . .

[TheLaughingMan]

*hula dancing for the duration of the post.*
Gee Sapo, you sure like to bring up how you play as a wolf a whole lot. . .
We can do that as well while bolding random words or sentences.
things to get at the store:
-We are never this insane as a wolf or power role, so we have got to be a normal towny./flailing arms
-grape soda
-butter
-milk
-eggs
-candy bar
-crickets
-sleep
-Hey look a people said stuff before us, totally proves we do not have power over time, eh Elemental? Yes, we are just a normal human, nothing less. . .

Rasmus, usourselves&we is clearly a shining portrait of mental health. Why would Sabo point at such an upstanding, good-smelling member of the community who is in no way associated with time-travel? You were clearly the only logical choice of prey.

[Elemental]

Indeed. A fine upstanding member of the community who can not be proved to possess powers over time.
Psst! Go into the future and find out who the wolves are! Wait, why am I typing in white text?

[Ramsus]

tLM, careful with your word choice (or lack of it? or whatever), Sapo will claim you're calling him a wolf.
Fnord
Also, what are you talking about? Why should &we's mental health be an issue here? Who said anything about time travel? And what's with that big blank space in your quote of &we? Are you feeling ok? Perhaps you should have a good lie down.

[Vesth]

&we, how do you buy sleep at the store? I would really really like buying some (stupid sleep deprived lifestyle)

And my addled brain seems to be ringing angelic bells of doom in my head, which, sweet as it is, seems to be coming from Saposhiente.

[bladescape]

Grue Bait. You have aroused my irony. I mean suspicion. Totally suspicion.

[Zjoot]

Wow, yeah, definitely not taking my vote off Ramsus now. It's not really suspicion anymore, but more just annoyance; you've got the same overreactive and rude attitude that ruined Seer's Academy for me as a narrator. I mean I get that day one is generally fairly random just because there's no information, but when someone tries to get something more out of it (because really with enough conversation the wolves will emerge eventually) you can see how a point on that one person would look a little suspicious. But then we get to the point where it goes too far, and that's the hyper rationality or over analysis if you will that we're seeing now. It may (and in fact, does) work in games like Dethy, where there is actual information on day 1, but it's a little much here given the circumstances.

[Vesth]

Um. Yeah. Wow. Totally what The Grimmace said. I definitely didn't vote for Sapo just because of my gut feeling and DEFINITELY not because I haven't voted for Sapo before in any game, and wanted a change. Nope. Definitely not.

[Penguinator]

Day One super-analysis for no reason just made you a prime suspect. I would point if Peguinator's dagger was not firmly lodged in my small intestine and my prior wild suspicions.

"Withdrawn."

Elemental isn't talking as much as he normally does. :smalltongue:

[Elemental]

Well... I was conversant earlier. And then there was a discussion I thought it best to remain outside of. And when that was over, I started talking again.
But, of course, shortly after that, I had band rehearsal, like I do every Monday evening.

I simply hadn't gotten around to posting again, and nor did I have anything to add to the conversation.

[Grue Bait]

Holy crap. I go to bed and wake up to this, Good heavens.

Personally, I don't think either of you are wolves. Last time this happened, it was assassins, and I made the wrong choice by voting Sapo. I'm pretty sure he's a villager again, albeit an angry villager.

As for Ramsus, I don't know. He's suspicious, but I'm not getting wolf-vibe from him. Perhaps a villager with a death wish? Maybe he's tired of being a villager, and wants this to end quick? However, I don't advocate killing him. At all.

Can we switch to some other people?

[Elemental]

Well, I'm going to bed as it's after midnight where I live and I may have yard work to do tomorrow.
Yay.

Anyway, so don't be surprised if I'm inactive for most of tomorrow.
Good night everyone!

[Penguinator]

I'm pretty sure he's a villager again, albeit an angry villager.

(He's a South Pole elf!)

[Saposhiente]

First, let me make the record clear:

Actually that is a better idea. If the hypnotist doesn't use his power, then first to get pointed at gets lynched, but the person who pointed at him is still much more likely.
Lex-kat for being TPAM. TPBM: Vote for somebody else. TPBH: Vote for TPBM. People who don't vote are lynch targets.
Edit: Actually, everyone should vote for themselves (you can!). Therefore, the hypnotist, if he hasn't shape-shifted (which he can only choose to do last night, mind you) will get lynched (unless he doesn't vote. But we lynch everybody who doesn't vote.). Saposhiente


For now Saphoshiente. He's pushing this idea kinda hard and I have to wonder why. Also it just seems sorta like an unintended loophole and I don't think it's fun to play the game by looking for loopholes to abuse. It's more interesting to try and outwit the other side (which personally I feel is especially rewarding for town in certain games).


Saposhiente was lynched, he was a Joe Schmoe

Ramsus survived and won, he was The Hypnotist (wolf powerrole)


Mordokai because:

Unlike what he says, talking is pro-town and needs to be done more, not less here.
Not pushing for a lynch is a horrible idea. If we no-lynch, we simply enter the next day with one less person and the same amount of information. Lynching is crucial to winning.
"Besides, he asked for it last day." is exactly the sort of argument I was wanting to bait out and attack yesterday, as I mentioned to Murska. It's a cheap way to get me lynched, and has worked in the past, and every time that logic has started with a wolf.
Given that Mordokai has just now managed to attack me for 3 reasons, all of which are bad logic, I believe that he is far more likely to be a wolf than anyone else here.

Saposhiente was lynched, he was a Royal Guard

---Day 1, groups by Lex-kat, actions by Murska
{table=head]Group|Action|Result|Disturbed?
Lex-kat,Irbis,Trixie,Elder Tsofu|Scry Gray Mage|S.E.U.|???
Deathslayer7,Murska,Happyturtle,Wolfsbane|Scry Ramsus|Fail|???
Sanity702,Billtodamax,Lord Loss,Horoar|Sleeeep|Success!|N/A
Fleeing Coward,Saposhiente,Internet Flea,Gray Mage|Scry Horoar|Horror|Yes
Tydude,Ramsus,Byers2142,Orzel|Scry Murska|Fail|???[/table]
{table=head]Horrors Disturbing|Odds of Disturb
0|0.4992767995356037
1|0.6160337654798762
2|0.7110415054179566
3|0.7871895962332301
4|0.8471612164602683[/table]
Horoar, near lynch, claims S.E.U.
Saposhiente, near lynch, claims S.E.U. and backs up Horoar
Lynch Horoar = S.E.U.
---Day 2, groups by Gray Mage, actions by Gray Mage
{table=head]Group|Action|Result|Disturbed?
Gray Mage,Deathslayer7,HappyTurtle,Wolfbane|Scry Sanity702|Fail|???
Lex-Kat,Trixie,Internet Flea,Murska|Bane Gray Mage|N/A|???
Billtodamax,Irbis,Orzel,Sanity702|Fetch Shrubbery|Ni!|N/A
Elder Tsofu,Byers2142,Lord Loss,Saposhiente|Scry Fleeing Coward|S.E.U|Yes
Tydude,Fleeing Coward|Frolic with Kittens|Yay!|N/A[/table]
Tydude abducted = Villager
{table=head]Horrors Disturbing|Odds of Disturb
0|0.5424823835784314
1|0.6630501940359477
2|0.7580052593954248
3|0.8312691482843138
4|0.8864366319444444[/table]
Lord Loss claims SEU, scry disturbed
Saposhiente claims scry disturbed
Fleeing Coward claims Not SEU
---

How does editing hide things? I didn't want to put it several times on the same page. Furthermore, I'm not saying that FC is a horror, which remains statistically unlikely.
As to my point... Hm, billtodamax and sanity are starting to get suspicious because of the anti-town laziness, but nobody has provided a good counter-argument to my theory.
No Lynch for more scries


Saposhiente, at least for now. Not lynching is now an even worse idea than in day 1, so it's a suspicious suggestion, IMO. We know that two Horrors know each other, are you protecting your Horror friend? :smallamused:

And you forgot about Ramsus in that table of yours.

Saposhiente was lynched. He was an S.E.U. Agent (good powerrole)

Gray Mage was lynched. He was a Horror (wolf)

A game where I do not put myself at risk, where I don't try to get the most out of D1, is one where I am suspicious. Ramsus and LaughingMan: I did not attempt to make myself suspicious; I attempted to get someone else to say something incriminating. Ramsus made an amazing lack of an argument. "Talking a lot" is good for town, not bad. "Using wolf logic" is meaningless if you don't show any of my logic to be faulty. It's a lead. I'd only peg you as having a 1/3 chance of being a wolf, but 1/3 is a lot better than the 1/4 chance that any other random person is a wolf. I am aware that doing all this makes me suspicious to some people, but half of those people are wolves (e.g. in Shapeshifters). Unfortunately, there is not enough time in the day for this. 48 hours is fine and great except when it really matters. I'm apparently in the position where I'm screwed no matter what: I get lynched if I do this, and nightkilled by any wolves that are at all paying attention if I don't. It should not have come to this: I'm the Seer.
We're going to have to play the D1 claim game: Baner, bane me while the other Seer/Fool can scry me to confirm and then claim to me. Because this is a small game, Seer/Fool for Wolf isn't an unacceptable trade. If the other seer/fool were to scry me and I was lying, he would be best off claiming and voting me. At that point, we could decide who was lying and who wasn't, wasting two lynches if we're wrong, or we could lynch neither of us and let the wolves kill the true person, and then lynch the lying person. If the wolves don't do this, both of us just keep posting scry results and the truth will become apparent soon enough. Meanwhile: If no wolf lies about being a Seer and knowing that I'm a wolf, then the silence should be enough to show my innocence. We can then all network around me, and we win.

[Grue Bait]

Well. It's always the seer day one, isn't it.

[Saposhiente]

Mind voting for Ramsus or someone with two votes? I'm the #1 wagon atm.

[cd4]

Well, this is interesting with the way the discussion has gone on. Reading through the posts it seems like it started as Saposhiente reacting to Ramsus who was ninjaed by Usourselves&we. As far as I can see Ramsus' point was a random Day 1 point at the first target that came to mind, however Usourselves&we had ninjaed him creating a wagon on Saposhiente. Saposhiente immediately got defensive about the wagon and points and tried to make it seem like Ramsus is a wolf.

Now as a last ditch maneuver Saposhiente has claimed Seer. To me that makes Saposhiente one of 4 roles: Seer, Fool, Devil or Wolf. I don't know which of these roles he is but I don't want to lynch Ramsus, as he is the only one at the moment with more than 1 vote other than Saposhiente, who has been calm and collected throughout the discussion. Therefore I will vote for Usourselves&we for ninjaing Ramsus at the start of this discussion.

Though I would have prefered my original role of devil rather than my current role, but oh well.

[Vesth]

Ok, I've cancelled my vote, but I highly doubt that Ramsus is a wolf either. Hmm.....who to pick, who to pick....

[Saposhiente]

cd4, there is no time for an &we wagon. Day is almost over.
I would like to reiterate, I am not being defensive; I find Ramsus genuinely suspicious. He, as a wolf, has tried to swing the wagon against me while calling me defensive and over-analyzing, etc before (See the Shapeshifters example). He also tends to attempt to sway Town as a wolf in general (See Medieval WW, but I was a wolf that game). Because I had actually said things and made proposals, Ramsus voting for me wasn't "just a random vote", it was a statement. Day 1 votes aren't random because they're made on Day 1; Day 1 votes are random because there usually aren't any significant targets on Day 1.
If you guys really don't want to lynch Ramsus, you can vote someone with one vote and then I can vote them as well to put them in front.

[Zjoot]

Question for Bish: how does the seer work in this game? Do they scry all good roles as simply good and all evil roles as evil? ie:devil scries as wolf, baner scries as villager (with the exception of the other seer of course) or do they get specific roles?

Also, I can switch to usourselves&we if you do, Sapo. (Although I'd rather eat Randy vote for Ramsus)

[Saposhiente]

As would I. Monitor the thread. We have 1/4 of a day; hopefully someone out of 1/4 of the playerbase will vote Ramsus in that time. A lynch of not-me is still the highest priority. Actually, Bish, do you allow conditional votes? If so, usourselves&we if and only if nobody new votes Ramsus before day end..

[MethosH]

I feel like going with..... The same as the guy just above me. Does this count as a vote? I figured a random strategy could go ok in day 1.

[Penguinator]

Well. It's always the seer day one, isn't it. Scry me tonight, tell me what you get.

This. This makes me suspicious. How often do you see people ask this? Chances are, he's a mason, or maybe just a cocky villager. But the chances that he's a wolf scare me greatly.

[Saposhiente]

I feel like going with..... The same as the guy just above me. Does this count as a vote? I figured a random strategy could go ok in day 1.
You can also just vote Ramsus. That's really the idea here; my more-complicated vote was only in case nobody voted ramsus.

This. This makes me suspicious. How often do you see people ask this? Chances are, he's a mason, or maybe just a cocky villager. But the chances that he's a wolf scare me greatly.
Yes, and if we had more time in the day I would not have claimed, but alas, deadlines, and it seemed that everyone I could convince was either voting Ramsus or voting off-wagon.

[MethosH]

The thing of my vote is.. if you change your vote mine will just change as well.. thats why its random :smallbiggrin:

[TheLaughingMan]

I'm the Seer.

Oh wow. It's like my first game came back from utter digital oblivion just to haunt the jefferies out of me.


Well, this is interesting with the way the discussion has gone on. Reading through the posts it seems like it started as Saposhiente reacting to Ramsus who was ninjaed by Usourselves&we. As far as I can see Ramsus' point was a random Day 1 point at the first target that came to mind, however Usourselves&we had ninjaed him creating a wagon on Saposhiente. Saposhiente immediately got defensive about the wagon and points and tried to make it seem like Ramsus is a wolf.

Now as a last ditch maneuver Saposhiente has claimed Seer. To me that makes Saposhiente one of 4 roles: Seer, Fool, Devil or Wolf. I don't know which of these roles he is but I don't want to lynch Ramsus, as he is the only one at the moment with more than 1 vote other than Saposhiente, who has been calm and collected throughout the discussion. Therefore I will vote for Usourselves&we for ninjaing Ramsus at the start of this discussion.

I pretty much agree with almost all of these points, although I'd say that both parties are being rather childish in the face of random band-wagoning (this includes you, Grimmace). It amazes me how much of this could've been avoided had Sapo just shut his mouth.

[MethosH]

I spy with my little eye something that starts with the letter W...
It is my wallet! I just found it! Nothing to see here. :smallbiggrin:

[usourselves&we]

that mostly consists of non-caffeinated drinks and a sandwich.
Anyways we are leaving the house, so . . . wait that day still has more than a day left to go. Sapo made his claim like 14 hours into the day. wouldn't a seer you know not be overly verbose day one to hide their tracks, we are not a seer do not think we are a seer that is a wrong think.

[Saposhiente]

It amazes me how much of this could've been avoided had Sapo just shut his mouth.

Yeah, instead of there being a big drama when the seer is almost lynched, there could have been a big drama when the seer was nightkilled because he wasn't following his town strategy.

[Ramsus]

I'm not switching to &we because I'm decently sure he's town and Sapo is just being a wolf looking for any bandwagon anyone will follow that isn't on him (&we having voted for him makes it all the better).

I also disbelieve your Seer claim. No Seer would behave this way unless they were playing a "no Seer would behave this way" scheme and well, that's probably never going to work here for various reasons. (If somehow you really are the Seer, you should really learn how to play as a Seer and not be throwing away town's assets for the sake of bad day 1 logic and prideful stubbornness.)

Your random out of context quotes, as I already said before you made them, are meaningless because they're out of context and behavioral patterns can easily be manipulated by the person whose behavior they are. (Also I stand 100% behind what I said in Shifters, I find the way you try to find loopholes and then abuse them highly distasteful.)

Again, please stop putting shoving-wholesale-like-they're-going-to-pass-their-expiration-date words in my mouth. I never said talking was bad. I point out that my trap you jumped into was aimed 100% at causing an honest reaction and discussion. Unlike your "give a opinion on this random person, that will somehow ensure useful non-lie statements because that's how it works in every game right?" strategy which doesn't provide anything useful unless someone has already said/done something useful for that person to comment on.

@The Grimmace: Huh? What? I'm the rude one? For defending myself? Or is it for pointing out that Sapo was (still is actually) being rude to me? Please explain the exact behavioral difference between what I'm doing and what Sapo is doing that makes me the rude one here. (Or apologize, that'd work too.) (Though actually I just think you're wolf buddies with him.)

@Whoever is the Baner: You should probably bane Grue Bait as it looks like he's outed himself as a Mason.

@MethosH: I don't think that's a very legal vote (especially when Sapo crosses out what your vote would have referred to). Unless you mean you just want to vote for whoever Sapo votes for? But that's....well it's frankly really suspicious to trust people like that unless you're masons (which you can't be because if Sapo was a Mason he would have claimed Mason) or wolves.

Edit: Oh right, forgot some points I was gonna make.

There's another reason Sapo immediately leapt onto me to try a make a wagon. Based on other games he knows that people are willing to find me suspicious and lynch me somewhat more easily than other people. Therefore it was in his wolfy interests to target me instead of &we or anyone else. It's highly unlikely it was in his interests to do so if he was town and downright crazy if he's the Seer like he's claimed. He's played with me in enough games to know this would become a drawn out affair. He's gambling on the idea that people in general find me more suspicious than him and...why would a Seer do this? However, if he's a wolf and I get lynched, he could just shrug it off with "well Ramsus is always suspicious".

Additionally, he knows he can claim Seer and get away with it today because whoever actually is the Seer isn't going to counter-claim a wolf on Day 1 (especially when it will now force the Baner into choosing between Baning one of possibly two Seer claimants or a Mason).

And lastly, he can't be the Seer because the actual Seer (or Fool) would have claimed Seer/Fool. They'd have no way to know which one they are yet. I know he mentioned right after that the whole Seer/Fool thing but, he still claimed Seer specifically and that doesn't seem like what anyone with that role would actually claim in big bold letters.

[MethosH]

@Ramsus I'm not trusting anyone, I'm just voting... Ok.. To make this more random...

The same as the next vote after this one

[Ramsus]

@Ramsus I'm not trusting anyone, I'm just voting... Ok.. To make this more random...

The same as the next vote after this one

Ok then. Saposhiente. :smallbiggrin:

[TheLaughingMan]

The plot thickens!


"Withdrawn."

Um, if it's alright with you, I'm just going to keep pointing at you unless you manage to attract some last-minute bandwagon. I'm trying to stay neutral until all this nonsense is cleared up.


Yeah, instead of there being a big drama when the seer is almost lynched, there could have been a big drama when the seer was nightkilled because he wasn't following his town strategy.

Um, wolves are not omniscient. As such, that scenario is highly unlikely.

[MethosH]

Ok! That wasn't random at all. So I'm just going to vote for myself :smallbiggrin:

[Saposhiente]

@TLM: Wolves that pay attention and are experienced would notice my lack of talking, expecially when that's something I do in every game where I'm town. If I'm not a villager, and they know I'm not a wolf, I must be a powerrole.
MethosH, just because D1 votes are often random doesn't mean they *should* be random. Think, and pick a side.
I'm willing to vote for &we only as a last resort because the top priority is not having a Seer/Fool lynched.
I've already talked about the claim. I thought that town would have learned by now. Better to put yourself at risk of lynch (where you can claim) than to put yourself at risk of nightkilll (where you have no defense).
The quotes are entirely in context (same game, same day, same everything) and should serve as examples of what I am talking about. The shapeshifters one, in particular, is a pattern I see you repeating.
Your vote was not random, therefore it can be analyzed. You opposed someone whose only crime was making someone talk.
Re: @TheGrimmace: It's you failing to look at your brashness. Nobody other than you have yet seriously called me rude here.
Re: @Baner: Maybe, and in any case you've done a great service to his survivability :smallsigh:. The baner should protect the seer claimant.
"Based on other games he knows that people are willing to find me suspicious and lynch me somewhat more easily than other people. " You're describing me here.
Your counter-claim conclusions fail to take into account the presence of both the seer and the fool.
No, I don't know whether I'm the Fool, but "I'm a Seer/Fool" doesn't have the same impact. I called the other seer/fool "the other seer/fool" in the same post, acknowledging that I didn't know what I was.
In a nutshell: At this point, you are assuming that I am a wolf and deriving motives from there. You are not even evaluating what I would do as Seer in this position. To not draw attention to myself would be even more fatal than to be noticed if the wolves are at all paying attention, and if they're not then we can win this even with the cost of the exposed seer/fool.

[TheLaughingMan]

MethosH, just because D1 votes are often random doesn't mean they *should* be random. Think, and pick a side.

Now now, let the man pick whatever the heck he wants. It's not like anyone has any hard evidence anyways.

[Penguinator]

Um, if it's alright with you, I'm just going to keep pointing at you unless you manage to attract some last-minute bandwagon. I'm trying to stay neutral until all this nonsense is cleared up.

Fine with me. I'm just trying to keep out of the rest of it.

Questions, Bish, they have been asked and left unanswered.

Does the Seer scry the Fool as the Fool and vice-versa?

Also, is the Devil blind like in Classic, which this game is loosely-based on, or is the Devil with the wolves at the start like most any other game?

[MethosH]

:smallmad:
Saposhiente

[Ramsus]

Uh....no.

Just because you are always active when town doesn't mean you have to make yourself a target all the time every time. Also, I've already refuted this point multiple times as you know your behavior therefore any argument you make for your actions based on your behavior is worthless.

I know my own brashness thank you very much sir &/or mam. However there is a difference between brash and rude. For example, rudeness is acting like the other person's points aren't even points and commenting on how they haven't made points or replying to their responses specifically directed at other people. (In the brash way of putting it, "Was I talking to you? No? Then don't reply for him.")

I didn't say people don't find you suspicious, merely that you were using the fact that people find me suspicious. One doesn't rule out the other.

I disagree with you about what the Baner should do. Right now the people who can claim Seer and get away with it is....everyone. Right now the people who can claim Mason and can get away with it are.....Masons. The Baner should protect the person who is certainly town over....the guy willing to say everyone should just trust him that he's town. Even if you are what you claim you are, you could be the Fool. Killing the Fool day 1 is better than any other town role you could lynch day 1.

Your going for impact over honesty just makes me more suspicious of you. That seems either like 1) You're a wolf pretending to be you as town and being manipulative or 2) You being manipulative for no reason at all which just irks me and is a stupid thing to do as town because it makes you look like a wolf.

No, my counter-claim conclusions specifically did include the Seer and Fool. Neither of them would counter you right now because neither of them know which one they are and wouldn't risk the Seer on Day 1 just for a single wolf. (If you really are a Seer/Fool, you risking the Seer to pursue someone who as far as you knew threw a random point at you is even worse.)

I am assuming you are a wolf because the things you've done/said don't make sense for you to be doing as not a wolf. If you're town and still doing those things anyway you're kinda a liability. I have evaluated what you would do as a Seer in this position and I believe you would have not have done this as you'd probably have reasoned it'd result in a lose/lose result for town. (Then again I'm not sure of that, you're as dangerous to town as town as you are a wolf because of your blind "logic based" suicidal charge tactics. You really need to learn to consider how other people think and not assume they all will follow and use the same conclusions you have. In fact, you should probably learn more ways to play besides suicide charge and suspiciously silent because those being your "only" playstyles is something nobody is going to ever buy as a defense for your actions if only because everyone else is too cunning to believe anyone would ever stick to those two behaviors 100% of the time. Your unwillingness to view things from other people's perspective is frankly just dangerous.)

Edit: Actually now that I think about it, if we looked at all your past games you're probably more dangerous to town as town than as a wolf. (And more dangerous to wolves as a wolf too as far as I can recall.)
This isn't to say I think it would be better if you didn't try and use logic. I just think you should use less aggressive logic.
Example: "Ramsus pointed at me, therefore he must disagree with me/be trying to silencing me for using logic, therefore he is a wolf." This stuff always results in a downward spiral.

Edit 2: And while I agree with you in spirit about day 1 random votes, you probably should have been a bit more polite in making your point. (And while for you and I the result of this day is non-random, for almost everyone else it still is because from their viewpoint all this is is, "Sapo being Sapo and Ramsus being Ramsus". There's not going to be much information to draw on no matter what we say until the lynch actually occurs.)

[Saposhiente]

It's not dishonesty. I'm not pretending to know that I'm the seer. I would have corrected anyone saying otherwise.
You say I make myself look suspicious when I'm town. Suspicious means looking like a wolf. My behavior does not resemble me playing as a wolf, it resembles me playing as town. You say that by looking like town, I look like a wolf? You should instead realize that people are different. I am not interested in playing games where I keep quiet and blend in, saying as little as possible because most other people can't be bothered to say anything, and nonconformity is suspicious. I refer to this as "boring." Realize what makes me suspicious, not what makes the average person suspicious.
MethosH, play the game. The purpose of this is not to ditz around and randomly vote.
Note to self: Only play games where Murska is also in, and can back me up as he so often does because he realizes how it really works. People at least listen to him.

[Ramsus]

You're not getting my point at all. There are more playstyles than silent and suicidal. Also, it doesn't help that your logic often falls apart before it reaches its conclusion and that the only person you typically convince is yourself. People listen to Murska because he makes sense (or in some cases because they assume whatever Murska says makes sense).

Sapo, now that's rude. He technically did do what you asked. Just because he didn't point where you wanted him to doesn't mean he's "doing it wrong".

Anyway, I realized a different route we can take here.

Under the assumption you are a wolf, the Grimmace is rather suspicious and lynching me is definitely bad. Under the assumption you're not a wolf lynching you is bad and lynching me is probably still bad and the Grimmace is still suspicious (and at worst probably just a Villager). If he turns out a wolf, then you're probably a wolf too. If not *shrug* we're back to day 1 lack of info but, we didn't lynch a seer claimant.

Edit: Sapo, please note that I am switching off of you while you had more votes than me and I am second in line for the lynch. If you are actually a Seer/Fool consider if that's something you think I'd actually do if I was a wolf. (If you reach the answer of "yes" I'm really gonna want to hear the crazy logic involved in getting that conclusion.)

[Saposhiente]

Sapo, now that's rude. He technically did do what you asked. Just because he didn't point where you wanted him to doesn't mean he's "doing it wrong".

If he had said "Going with Ramsus here," then I would have said nothing. Instead saying ":smallmad:" indicated that he didn't vote for me because he had evaluated the positions and came to that conclusion, but instead because I had told him to think and he didn't like that.

[Ramsus]

If he had said "Going with Ramsus here," then I would have said nothing. Instead saying ":smallmad:" indicated that he didn't vote for me because he had evaluated the positions and came to that conclusion, but instead because I had told him to think and he didn't like that.

And that's just as valid a reason as any other on day 1.
Edit: At least he has a reason at all aside from "staying out of it" like certain other people who the eye of suspicion now gazes upon.

[MethosH]

I think you are annoying and I don't want to play with you anymore. See? I have a reason. Can I double vote on you just to make sure everyone get I'm voting for you until you are down? :smallannoyed:

[TheLaughingMan]

I think you are annoying and I don't want to play with you anymore. See? I have a reason. Can I double vote on you just to make sure everyone get I'm voting for you until you are down? :smallannoyed:

Yeah, Sapo, you're not making the best first impression for our newer players. Just take it easy. It's just day one.

[usourselves&we]

Yes, let's stop all this blubber a bout meta strategies, they don't normally hold up and I am sick of reading them. The others are way too neutral to say anything more about this.
And yes The Grimmace does look slightly suspicious, and at this time it is better then lynching a claimed 'seer' even if he/she is aggravating as all get out, Ramsus much like the one that was typing at the start of this post is just annoyed, that does not mean to say he is town but that also does not make him a wolf

[Penguinator]

Sapo it is. I like having new players stick around for a while.

[Saposhiente]

Penguinator. The game, pay attention to it. You were already suspicious with your conspicuous lack of involvement; now you look more like a wolf wanting an excuse to lynch a seer.

[Penguinator]

You're known for voting for yourself, and you just told a new player not to do it. That's hypocrisy, Sapo. Honestly, I don't think anyone cares to read your rants, not even the people they're directed at.

[Saposhiente]

There's a difference between voting for yourself to incite controversy and make the day have interesting results and voting for yourself for giggles while controversy has already been incited.

[Penguinator]

Everything you do incites controversy. He's a new player. Lay off of him. For all we know, he's a wolf, and they told him to play like an idiot to keep us from suspecting him. It's possible.

I don't believe that you're the seer. I don't think you're a wolf, but I am damn sure you're not the seer. I don't think Ramsus is a wolf, either, and like he said, I see this whole ordeal as "Sapo being Sapo and Ramsus being Ramsus." But if I'm forced to pick between you, &we, and Ramsus, I'm picking you. I don't think any of you are wolves, but I like them a lot better, and trust them not to piss everybody off.

[Saposhiente]

If I wasn't a wolf but was the seer, why would I claim seer?

[Penguinator]

Honestly, Sapo, I think you just like to feel special.

And before you claimed, your play reminded me of a young Pickpocket I once knew.

[Saposhiente]

Welp, looks like my inevitable death this game is going to be fun. Of course, you're probably going to blame people voting for me all on me, but proof that history is still repeating itself, though hopefully not as terribly, will be nice.

[Ramsus]

*stares at Sapo and Penguinator* &we, did they just ignore us? :durkon:

[TheLaughingMan]

If I wasn't a wolf but was the seer, why would I claim seer?

Minigame time!

Reasons Why Sapo Would Claim Seer: A Doctoral Thesis By The Man Who Laughs:

1. To save himself in a moment of weakness.

2. To gather the townsfolk under one roof.

3. For gits and shiggles.

4. Because he is a Dominic Deegan fan (if any exist).

5. Because everyone's conspiring to recreate Abhorsen 2 just to spite me.

6. Because he and Ramsus are acting out a self-satire to warn the newbies about what they're getting into.

7. Because he is a hypnotist, and "I am the Seer" is Bishfish's trigger phrase, thus allowing him to win the game in one turn.

8. As a philosophical musing.

9. He's just acknowledging that he possesses eyeballs.

10. Because he is a wolf and thought this would be amusing no matter how it turned out.

Did I miss any?

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Saposhiente.

Asking a player for an opinion on another player before the game is really going will not, in any situation, start a conversation. But it will make you look like you're trying to start a conversation.

You are being way too defensive. You keep voting for players voting for you just because you claimed the seer, like that's supposed to prove to us you're telling the truth an we should trust you. I'm calling your bluff.

I'd say you're taking it too far for Day 1. Your kind of play is fine even starting Day2, but Day 1 it just makes you look like you're trying too hard to pretend to be on the villager's side.

[52.5 Lemons]

This is more conversation than I've ever seen for the first day and it leaves me unsure about my suspicions. We have come to a seer claim very quickly and I don't like it. I understand it's not likely that he is the seer, but it seems that players with general roles wouldn't show the desperation that Sapo is showing. Can somebody explain to me how trying to incite conversation on day 1 is suspicious behavior because I really don't understand it.

[TheLaughingMan]

Can somebody explain to me how trying to incite conversation on day 1 is suspicious behavior because I really don't understand it.

It's really more Sapo's bizarre knee-jerk reactiion to being randomly pointed at that confused people, and after that he just kept digging a deeper hole for himself.

[usourselves&we]

*stares at Sapo and Penguinator* &we, did they just ignore us? :durkon:
Honestly it doesn't matter to us any more, let people do what they want to do. We are going to go laugh at youtube videos and do other internet stuff.

Can't think of anything to add to the list TLM, but it is probably #1, #10 or both.

[Zjoot]

Honestly, I have no idea what to say at this point...I had things to say, but then was blocked by wall after wall of text.

I will say that my last point for Ramsus was probably more reactionary than rational, and that a lot of this is perspective right now. There have been some posts by Ramsus in this game that have made me react badly because of the way they came off in my perspective and thus I think a lot of my logic and thought process has been warped by that initial reaction. Rather than drawing unbiased conclusions, I've been emotionally biased against Ramsus and in favor of his immediate opponent, Sapo. This compounded on the fact this is the second time I've seen Sapo be misconstrued and teamed up on because of the way he likes to play. Honestly, his posts do not come off as rude to me (in fact they come off sort of emotionless and almost robotic in their level of pure rationale) and I think this is because I share his opinion on what makes a game fun, which is the competition and the drive to succeed and win.

That being said, I do think there are a couple specific posts that came off as a little rude (which I don't think was intended at all, but it's easy to see how they would be interpreted that way):

MethosH, just because D1 votes are often random doesn't mean they *should* be random. Think, and pick a side.

MethosH, play the game. The purpose of this is not to ditz around and randomly vote.


I think anyone can see how those would warrant a negative reaction, even though I agree to the ideas behind them.

The other thing is the more I think about it, the more suspicious certain activities do seem. Gut feeling says the seer claim's a bit fishy, and I don't think constantly reffering to past games is very valid. However, I highly doubt a wolf would do something as suicidal as what Sapo's doing now, especially when it has a history of ending badly for him.

Finally, if I'm interpreting it right, the posts on me are based on my "working with Sapo" yes? Well, I dislike how I am unable to agree with another player and to take his side when people seem to be teaming up on him without being misconstrued as wolfish. My reasons, as has just been made clear, are purely meta and emotional.

And I have other stuff, but I think I'll leave it at that for now. :smallwink:

[CeresianMemento]

My thanks, Saposhiente. The last time I played WW, I had no idea who I would vote for in the first round of the game. I'm kinda glad that you weren't in that one, so that I wouldn't be absolutely misguided. While I don't really have anything against you, I appreciate your sacrifice.

...Also, if you really were the Seer or the Fool, why would you reveal your role right off the bat? If you aren't a wolf (and you somehow survive this situation), you open yourself up to be a target of a night kill with your claims of Seerhood. If you are a wolf, then congrats: you just attracted enough attention to get yourself lynched on day one.

[52.5 Lemons]

...Also, if you really were the Seer or the Fool, why would you reveal your role right off the bat? If you aren't a wolf (and you somehow survive this situation), you open yourself up to be a target of a night kill with your claims of Seerhood. If you are a wolf, then congrats: you just attracted enough attention to get yourself lynched on day one.

Well, the most obvious reason to claim seer if Sapo really was, would be to keep the possible seer in the game because that is a very powerful role. A non-wolf doesn't really need to worry much about being nk'd because they are likely to get a bane and therefor are a bad target. I find it more likely that Sapo is a normal villager trying to stay alive. A wolf can claim all they want yet they will need to find a way to prove themselves and if someone is killed and turns up to be the seer or fool, their position is compromised so claiming seer as a wolf isn't really the best way to save yourself.

[Saposhiente]

TLM: You missed the fact that I would never do #1, and #2-#9 are just silly.
It is clear that further debate is pointless. Have fun missing a Seer. While you're at it, find the people on my wagon who aren't using anything resembling logic (I'm no longer going to be bothered to sift through them) and lynch them.

[Gray Mage]

Edit: Where were you last night, Gray Mage?

Seeing of the worst and most enraging soccer games of the year.:smallsigh:
Although that was probably not the kind of answer you wanted. :smalltongue:

Anyway, not sure where I stand with the whole Sapo vs Ramsus thing just yet.

Well, when in doubt, vote for bladescape (at least for now).

[Penguinator]

Well, Sapo, I still don't know why you decided to target me with the first post in the game, so I don't see a reason why I personally should be pleased with your actions.

[bladescape]

Hello there, GM, it's been a while.:smallwink:

Anyways. I'm sincerely disappointed with how it's all went. Ramsus and Sapo... Especially you.

Anyways. While I still think my initial suspicions have root, I'm moving to The Grimmace. To avoid hitting the seer claimant. Yes, his claim may be fishy, but it's never particularly wise to hit someone who claims seer D1.

[TheLaughingMan]

Have fun missing a Seer.

Given your track record this game, we just might.

[Elemental]

I should probably find someone to vote for.
But I don't want to vote based on who I've found more annoying. And as such, I might just end up abstaining from this vote.

[RuneboundShade]

Okay, I leave this game for a bit, and this happens?

Also, @whoever said he was devil, seer, fool or wolf, there isn't a devil in this game. :smallfrown:

@sapo: you're over-reacting, or you were, you over all play reminds you of your play in assassins... but I haven't played with you all that often.
You do, however, strike me as authentic, and I freaking want a seer claim hanging around.

@everyone voting sapo: should change target, as sapo has claimed seer, and I'd like to see a couple of scry results before I judge him.

@Ramsus: Hmm.. your current play reminds me of your play in fae, actually, in which you were a wolf. So I'm not defining anything, but I'm saying you have no right to talk, and that you usually get more exasperated as wolf.

Now PLEASE, I've had enough on another site of bad werewolf players, I'd really appreciate if we could actually work here.

Today has been pretty crapped up, but I'm going to vote Ramsus, as I'm a little suspicious of him, and he seems to be giving off blue vibes if anything, so he'd be a safe lynch.

BTW Killing seer claim is a pretty stupid thing to do, I want to see his scry results, then after about 3 days, if we still think he's suspicious, we lynch him, THEN if he TURNS OUT TO BE SEER, WE HAVE A LIST OF CORRECT SCRIES, and if he is actually wolfy, then no loss for us.

So I don't really care where everyone votes, but PLEASE, don't vote sapo.

[Zjoot]

There will be 4 werewolves, 3 masons, 1 baner, 1 fool, 1 seer, and 1 devil.

From the OP

[Elemental]

Well... I'm going to bed.
I may have time to vote in the morning, but in the meantime, I shall be abstaining.

Or, if I really have to vote...
Fortunately... This isn't secret ballot, so I can't get away with making a fake vote without everyone realising. But, to tell the truth, secret ballot would be incredibly difficult to organise.
I vote for lynching the old battery in my watch which needs replacing.

Good night everyone!

[Penguinator]

Grimmace. Unless he wants to claim seer as well.

[Zjoot]

Wow, I love how people are so determined to keep me from playing any game I'm actually going to have fun with. It's just great. It's like people here are determined to make other people not want to play werewolf games here.

[Penguinator]

Wow, I love how people are so determined to keep me from playing any game I'm actually going to have fun with. It's just great. It's like people here are determined to make other people not want to play werewolf games here.

Ramsus? :smalleek:

Back to Elemental. He's the only one that didn't a) vote for me or b) get pissy when I voted for him. :smallsigh:

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Ugh.

Sapo, I reread through your posts. I think you're not a wolf after all, but I still don't like your logic. Meta's are the worst kind of information to use to validate anything, in my opinion. Meaning every instance you mentioned 'Well look at how I play in other games' I immediately dismissed the comments and will continue to do so if we play together again. It's about what you post in this game.

I think the push to get a quiet player to talk was a good idea, but wrong execution. Instead of asking for a player's opinion on someone else, I'd start with something more random but self-referential.

I do, wholeheartedly, agree that everyone should vote on who they think are the wolves and not randomly. Players should think and that's good logic.

Last thing, I think you're underestimating how much discussion can happen in 48 hours. We still have 8 whole hours left but you've been worried about the clock the entire game. Just relax and let's play. :smallsmile:

Overall the main reason I don't think Sapo is a wolf is because of his intentions. Read through the posts, as defensive as he was he still was at least trying to find a wolf. I'd say we give him a chance to prove his role as RuneboundShade suggested.

I'm rereading through again, trying to find the wolves.

[TheLaughingMan]

He's the only one that didn't a) vote for me or b) get pissy when I voted for him. :smallsigh:

Remember when you could point at someone in a WW game and they wouldn't immediately launch into titan-sized pity parties?

Yeah, I miss those days. :smallfrown:

If the rest of the game is going to be like this, I might just consider voting myself out and save myself the trouble.

[MethosH]

There's a difference between voting for yourself to incite controversy and make the day have interesting results and voting for yourself for giggles while controversy has already been incited.

And there's a difference between being annoying and being you... Oh wait... There isn't. So I'm going to vote for you until you are lynched and ignore the rest of your posts from now on. I'll call that "the strategy to get rid of annoying players". And I think it looks a lot better than the controversy-strategy.

And you know what? Screw it. I'm the seer and Sapo is lying. :smallsmile:

[Penguinator]

Remember when you could point at someone in a WW game and they wouldn't immediately launch into titan-sized pity parties?

Yeah. Murska never did that. Or Drifter. Or countless others.

Honestly, I've considered narrating full-time and not actually playing games any more for a while.

This game isn't helping. :smallfrown:

[Gray Mage]

And you know what? Screw it. I'm the seer and Sapo is lying. :smallsmile:

Sorry if this seems rude, but are you aware that there's a fool in this game? And, as a fool, that player doesn't actually know he's a fool, but rather thinks he's the seer? So, you both can be thinking that you're saying the truth and this claim doesn't really help.

PS: We should all probably chill for a bit. No need to get worked up over this, it's just a game. Let's all try and make it a fun one, ok?

@Bish: Is there scry interference in play?

[Ramsus]

@The Grimmace: I'm sorry, I hadn't noticed that such stuff was happening to you (as well) that often. That said, you're the only person with any kind of real reason right now I see to vote for. That said, it's sadly not very strong logic.

I'd like to ask the narrator if we could extend this phase another day (though on the other hand if I was a narrator I'd probably be like "What? No, that's totally unfair to the wolves. Suck it up man!")

@Rune: What? Did you not read my last post or something? Chances I am a wolf are pretty dang low. Doesn't help your point much when I'm not even pointing at Sapo so you're saying one thing while doing another.

@MethosH: Well, if you're not going to read Sapo's posts, you'll still read mine right? While I have nothing against holding grudges, you don't get anywhere if you apply them where they hurt yourself. (It also doesn't feel like proper revenge.) Right now I don't think voting for Sapo is a good plan for town.

You realize you can't know if you're the Seer or the Fool right? So if both you and Sapo aren't lying the wolves now know who the Seer is and the Baner has to choose between which of you to Bane and if he picks the wrong one....*sigh* (Yup, I'm totally dying early again.)
Also, I don't think your goal should be to get rid of people. Just to try and get them to reconsider their behavior.

@tLM: Uh...sorry. At least mine have dramatic flair? :smalleek:

@Penguinator: You know your switching off the Grimmace just makes it more likely that Sapo gets lynched right? And I'm sure you're aware that's a bad plan right now. *eyes suspiciously*

Edit: *kicks Sapo* You didn't cross out one of your earlier votes for me so you're still pointing at me.

[MethosH]

I aware there is a fool. The same way sapo is. He risked more than one person claiming seer. I don't believe he is a seer. I think he is a wolf. I maybe a fool, but I'm sure he isn't seer or fool. He is just a wolf trying to get the banner to make the wrong call. Now the banner has a 50% chance of making the wrong call. If Sapo is a wolf and the banner chooses him the real seer is unprotected. If I'm just a fool, no big deal.. so the seer has a 50% chance between a wolf and a townie (if sapo is a wolf) other than that is a 50% between a seer and a fool. :smallbiggrin: Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I think Sapo will approve my nonsense now.

[Ramsus]

lol, well at least you're providing logical reasons. (Though I would like to point out something I forgot to mention before, which is that people possibly have logical reasons for things they say/do that they just aren't exposing to the public eye. I often do this in fact (in fact I've pulled the "wolf bait point" thing repeatedly (Not that it has a high success record: Just because it's better than an actually random day 1 point))).

Still, the possibility remains you are both telling the truth and the possibility either of you are lying is about equal. All that really happened is the wolves were given the advantage as the Baner has more high priority targets to pick from. (Sadly I am not one of them...gonna be another short game for me. At least this time it will make sense and not be "lolz killing Ramsus cuz he's there".)

[Gray Mage]

I aware there is a fool. The same way sapo is. He risked more than one person claiming seer. I don't believe he is a seer. I think he is a wolf. I maybe a fool, but I'm sure he isn't seer or fool. He is just a wolf trying to get the banner to make the wrong call. Now the banner has a 50% chance of making the wrong call. If Sapo is a wolf and the banner chooses him the real seer is unprotected. If I'm just a fool, no big deal.. so the seer has a 50% chance between a wolf and a townie (if sapo is a wolf) other than that is a 50% between a seer and a fool. :smallbiggrin: Not sure if I'm doing it right, but I think Sapo will approve my nonsense now.

Well, there's only one problem with this logic. You see, it is right that if Sapo is a wolf and the baner protects him the real seer is unprotected, but that isn't a big problem because odds are, that'd have happened on night 1 anyway (although it is still worse then a blind baner, of course). Plus, while they might count on the baner baning a wolf Sapo, they still don't know who is the seer, so, at best for them, there's a 1 in 15 chance of hitting the seer (counting 20 players, 1 mislynch, 4 wolves and the standard blind Devil, if the Devil is not blind then it's an 1 in 14 chance).

But now, there's an 1 in 4 chance of hitting the seer, no matter if Sapo is lying or not (if either of you is a wolf, then it's one half for the other not being baned, plus one half for him not being the fool, if neither is a wolf, it's one half for hitting the unbanned one of you, plus one half for that player not being the fool).

[MethosH]

I wonder what will happen if 10 players decide to claim seer :smallbiggrin:

[Gray Mage]

I wonder what will happen if 10 players decide to claim seer :smallbiggrin:

Why only 10, let's all 20 of us claim seer. :smalltongue:

PS: Has anyone seen JollyChris or Loreni333 around? I don't they've posted since the game started.

[MethosH]

Why only 10, let's all 20 of us claim seer. :smalltongue:


Thats sound legit. Lets all try to convince the others that we are the real seers :smallamused:

[Saposhiente]

The Grimmace for the terrible crime of not being me. There are other people I'd rather lynch.
Guys, particularly Ramsus, why are you taking MethosH seriously?
Sorry about the false urgency earlier; I was mistaken because the day started once and then started again hours later.

[MethosH]

The Grimmace for the terrible crime of not being me. There are other people I'd rather lynch.
Guys, particularly Ramsus, why are you taking MethosH seriously?
Sorry about the false urgency earlier; I was mistaken because the day started once and then started again hours later.

I could ask them the same thing about you. You just sounded like some guy with a desperate need for attention in day one. :smalltongue: Why should people take you seriously?

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I'd like to start by asking anyone who was given the seer role should also claim today, just to make sure we can figure out who's lying tomorrow.

Particularly I'm suspicious of Vesth's few posts. They scream of fake emotion and haven't been helpful. Vesth, where do your suspicions lie? Tell us your thoughts on the game so far.

Also JollyChris has been reading along with the game but has decided to be quiet because he doesn't know what to say. I'm trying to encourage him to post his thoughts. I encourage everyone to post your thoughts, it only helps us beat the werewolves by posting more!

[TheLaughingMan]

Thats sound legit. Lets all try to convince the others that we are the real seers :smallamused:

I am Spartacus the Seer!

[MethosH]

I am Spartacus the Seer!

I actually believe you more than I believe in Sapo :smallbiggrin:

[52.5 Lemons]

This game is becoming chaos. Having multiple people claim seer is probably one of the worst things you can do for us. It would be much better that the baner only has one person to worry about, now he has 3. Which gives the wolves a 2/3 chance of picking one of the people claiming (assuming that the wolves choose one of them). I also don't see how rude remarks being thrown all over the place is going to help win the game. It appears that everybody has something against everybody else creating the illusion that anybody who has participated in this conversation is up to now good. For all we know, the wolves could be those who haven't even posted yet. For them this is probably a good thing. They can just sit back and watch us all lynch each other. Now, can we please get over ourselves and learn to incorporate everyone's play style into the game. This is all just silly. There is no reason for any of this except lots of overreacting from multiple people.

[TheLaughingMan]

Now, can we please get over ourselves and learn to incorporate everyone's play style into the game. This is all just silly. There is no reason for any of this except lots of overreacting from multiple people.

I'm pretty sure you can disregard my and Mentos's claims, as he seemed to just be pointing out the holes in Sapo's logic and I was just being farcical. Really, it's just a coin-toss on who the baner should bane tonight.

It's pretty interesting to see how quickly this game devolved into people complaining about each other. I thought we had a rule against External Baggage, but that seems to have gone unheeded.

In any case, we should probably designate a common target before this degenerates any further. I vote we go with lynching The Grimmace, whining or no whining, for reasons mentioned prior. After all, when has justice cowered when it is faced with opposition?

[Saposhiente]

I don't see the coin flip about it. The chance that the wolves will randomly target the baner is tiny. He should protect me.
(And yes, I am ignoring the silly fake seer claims)
Other seer: Scry me tonight so we can network. You'll return as "Seer/Fool" even if you're the Fool.

[Vesth]

I'd like to start by asking anyone who was given the seer role should also claim today, just to make sure we can figure out who's lying tomorrow.

Particularly I'm suspicious of Vesth's few posts. They scream of fake emotion and haven't been helpful. Vesth, where do your suspicions lie? Tell us your thoughts on the game so far.

Also JollyChris has been reading along with the game but has decided to be quiet because he doesn't know what to say. I'm trying to encourage him to post his thoughts. I encourage everyone to post your thoughts, it only helps us beat the werewolves by posting more!

What? I wake up, to find my posts being complained about. There, there, posts. Don't get sad just because the big bad meanie insults you :smallbiggrin:

Now, I think that Ramsus is not a wolf. But, while I suspect Sapo is, it wouldn't do any good to lynch seer claim on the first day...

[Zjoot]

Alright, I've taken a couple deep breaths so to speak, and I'm going to try to start fresh. Can I please get a summery of why I'm suspicious so far? I would very much like to be able to defend myself (even though that never really works, but still...) and I'd really rather not have to read through the whole thread just to find a couple posts. Thank you.

[MethosH]

I'm pretty sure you can disregard my and Mentos's claims, as he seemed to just be pointing out the holes in Sapo's logic and I was just being farcical. Really, it's just a coin-toss on who the baner should bane tonight.

I serious. I'm the seer. Or the fool. :smallbiggrin:


I don't see the coin flip about it. The chance that the wolves will randomly target the baner is tiny. He should protect me.
(And yes, I am ignoring the silly fake seer claims)
Other seer: Scry me tonight so we can network. You'll return as "Seer/Fool" even if you're the Fool.

I say he should protect me. You are just a wolf playing seer. And The Laughing Guy may be a wolf :miko:

[TheLaughingMan]

Alright, I've taken a couple deep breaths so to speak, and I'm going to try to start fresh. Can I please get a summery of why I'm suspicious so far? I would very much like to be able to defend myself (even though that never really works, but still...) and I'd really rather not have to read through the whole thread just to find a couple posts. Thank you.

Your alliance with Sapo, basically, set you up for a sort of proxy seer exam. Granted, it's a piss-poor lead, but we don't have much else to go on.


And The Laughing Guy may be a wolf :miko:

Traitorous breath freshener! A plague on your house as well!

[52.5 Lemons]

Well, looks like we have two legitimate seer claims out there then. I sure hope the baner does a good job, it's pretty much all up to him. We may find out who the fool or seer is tonight. Let's hope we find the fool.

[Zjoot]

Oh, my alliance with Sapo was really more personal than anything else. I think it was mostly me projecting left over frustration with a similar situation that occurred in Assassins onto this one, which is actually much less intense now that I've taken a step back and really looked at it.

That being said, I didn't really want to add to the craziness, so I've been avoiding this, but I took the lead pretty quickly there, so here it is: I am the baner. I get that that sounds very suspicious coming after multiple disputed seer claims, and from the current most suspicious person in the game, and...I could probably go on actually, but I'll leave that there because the day is almost over, and self preservation is important for me and the village as a whole.

Also, I'll switch to Saposhiente, also out of self-preservation.

[52.5 Lemons]

Are you kidding me? Let's see, we have two seer claims and a baner claim. I didn't think I'd ever see this much action on the first day but since the day is nearly over I feel that I need to make a decision on my vote regardless of the commotion. Let's go with Saposhiente since that seems to be most likely a false claim. If one of the two is the seer, I'd rather have the baner and take the 50/50 chance then let the baner get lynched and loose a power role leaving a 50/50 shot for a potential seer getting night killed.

[usourselves&we]

Sorry to say Grimm but at this point you are just a victim of day one happenstance, your words may have looked out of place to some eyes or it may be a wolf conspiracy. Whose to say what it is, but your prior over reaction does not help your case that much, it does not hurt it that much either because, yeah, being kill in a game suck, being killed in multiple games even more so. but the role of the village is to die in the place of power roles it's as simple as that.
Anyone else think we were way to lucid in this post?
But all that about village means bunk now that you just claimed. . .

but you have to admit that a baner claim pointing at a seer claim is kind of, you know. . . no matter what the seer claim acts like. Even still this just seems like you are trying to distance your self from the thought of you allied with Sapo.
All this day one claiming is ridiculous

[52.5 Lemons]

but you have to admit that a baner claim pointing at a seer claim is kind of, you know. . . no matter what the seer claim acts like. Even still this just seems like you are trying to distance your self from the thought of you allied with Sapo.
All this day one claiming is ridiculous

Yes, quite lucid. It actually does make sense that Grimmace, if he is in fact the baner, would have taken Sapo's side after the claim. At that moment he would have been anxious to bane him so that we could at least get one scry result out of him. Now I'm not so sure we will however if we loose the baner. Assuming of course that Grimmace's claim is to be believed, which, as any claim is, is very debatable. I'm done for the day however, I'm just going to leave it at that and see where destiny takes us.

[Zjoot]

Sorry to say Grimm but at this point you are just a victim of day one happenstance, your words may have looked out of place to some eyes or it may be a wolf conspiracy. Whose to say what it is, but your prior over reaction does not help your case that much, it does not hurt it that much either because, yeah, being kill in a game suck, being killed in multiple games even more so. but the role of the village is to die in the place of power roles it's as simple as that.
Anyone else think we were way to lucid in this post?
But all that about village means bunk now that you just claimed. . .

but you have to admit that a baner claim pointing at a seer claim is kind of, you know. . . no matter what the seer claim acts like. Even still this just seems like you are trying to distance your self from the thought of you allied with Sapo.
All this day one claiming is ridiculous

Well, like I said it's self preservation...If you think we can get another bandwagon far enough in the few hours left in the game, I will gladly jump on that...

[usourselves&we]

Well, we did say the role of the village is to die in the place of claimed power roles no matter how fishy they seem to be. . .

cd4 is voting for us, if you and lemons vote for us as well we will seal the deal and no claimers other then ones that claim villager will die this day.It is when we are most lucid that our insanity shows.

To the village: This night should give you the information you need to get the wolves, may the dance of the baner begin, after we die of course.

[Gray Mage]

So, I check the thread and we have yet another claim? 3 claims on day 1, is that a new record or something?

Anyway, since usourselves&we has volunteered, here goes. Risking losing either a baner or a seer is not good on day 1. And now to see what the night and the NK brings us.

[TheLaughingMan]

:smallfrown:

usourselves&we.

[52.5 Lemons]

reluctant, but its better than loosing possible baner or seer... usourselves&we.

[Grue Bait]

usourselves&we, thank you.

[usourselves&we]

usoursleves&we.
And then we claim seer and baner just for the hell of it =P
Well see Y'all next game, have fun.

[52.5 Lemons]

So now that we have hopefully secured the lives of those who have claimed, how do we prove their roles? I understand we can have people scried, but whose to say that we can trust the "results" and the person who is scried? I'm glad we are taking a safe route, but I'm unsure of what exactly to do next.

[Ramsus]

What? &we is like one of the only people I'm not suspicious of.

I personally think he had the right idea of it making very little sense that the Baner would vote for someone he thought might be a Seer. Either this is a desperate wolf ploy or just...well, not a very helpful way of acting as town. Either way, why are we suddenly going for &we?

At the very least we should have gone for one of the people who were random voting or not voting at all and trying to stay under the radar. (Elemental would have been my choice here.)

Actually, Lemons, this isn't the safe route for town. The safe route would be to lynch Sapo or the Grimmace anyway. That way we learn something. If neither of them die we can't trust anything they say without some rather extreme proof the wolves would never let them live long enough to provide, if they're not wolves.

I find everyone who switched to him (so quickly I might add) highly suspect, aside from Grue Bait who claimed Mason and hasn't been counterclaimed. (Of course I find most people highly suspect most of the time.)

After this massive clusterf#%, if even two of Sapo, the Grimmace, and MethosH are town, we're pretty screwed as we've basically just handed the wolves all the information they care about on Day 1. So we might as well lynch one of them anyway. *shrug*

Edit: &we, stop helping the wolves con town into behaving stupidly. Stop pointing at yourself.

[52.5 Lemons]

Actually, Lemons, this isn't the safe route for town. The safe route would be to lynch Sapo or the Grimmace anyway. That way we learn something. If neither of them die we can't trust anything they say without some rather extreme proof the wolves would never let them live long enough to provide, if they're not wolves.


That's what my problem with this is, I don't know what to do from here. I honestly haven't played that many games so I'm not really sure on how you prove someone is a seer. I suppose it wouldn't be too bad to loose a baner or possible seer on day 1, I just wish I could play a game where a network starts between the masons and seer, but perhaps I'm getting too hopeful.

[usourselves&we]

Ah, but Ramsus a lot of circumstantial non-evidence was just gathered :smalltongue: and we now see you as town.

So shall we all move to Elemental?

And anyway a lot more information is gathered from a night death rather than the lynch for any one person.

[52.5 Lemons]

I really don't like to switch my vote this much. I usually find that my gut feeling turns out to be the best option. And perhaps Ramsus is right, his logic is valid. I'm considering voting for Grimmace or Sapo. Who should I vote for though, I'm torn. Any suggestions before the day ends?

[Ramsus]

Sure, Elemental would be at least a safer choice (not an incredibly helpful one but, yeah Night will probably be informative enough).
(That's a dangerous game to be playing so close to the end of the phase you know....)
Edit: PS, guys who are pointing at me, please move your votes, I don't want to get lynched because we ended up in some transitory vote shift period when the Day ended.
Edit 2: That includes you Sapo (as last I checked you still had a not crossed out for vote me.)

[52.5 Lemons]

Fine, Elemental, although I don't see a reason to change. &we was willingly giving himself up, is it because he has been providing more input? That makes sense, if that's the reason.

[BishFish]

The sheriff leaned back in his chair. this day was just going to get worse. once the news got out that someone was dead, the rumors would spread faster than moonshine through a drunk. at the back of the crowd someone shouted.
"It was Sapo! he did it!"
Ramsey was quick to jump on the bandwagon, and soon more people were screaming. Sapo tried to defend himself, but no one would listen. Whenever he said something, they would twist his reasoning around on him, and the furor would get even louder. soon more names started flying. nearly everyone in the town had been accused of killing the miner.
In the end, the mob was set to kill someone, so Us went out behind his house with his favorite shotgun, and shot himself underneath the jaw. The village went quiet. People realized how crazy they were being. they didn't know anything yet, why were they trying to kill someone? The citizens of Mining Town went to bed quietly that night, though few people could sleep.

usourselves&we died. He was a villager.


Just to clarify some questions:
The seer scries the fool as fool and vice versa.
The devil starts blind. he doesn't know who the wolves are yet.

[52.5 Lemons]

I hope you know what you're doing Ramsus, because I sure don't. I'm honestly quite confused with all this day 1 action.

[usourselves&we]

Sapo still hasn't removed his point on Pengi we disregarded any other points he may have made when we made our list. But any ways the day is over, a bit later than we thought it would, but whatever, let's see how a tie is worked out

[Ramsus]

I have enough experience to know that worked out in just about the worst possible way it could have. &we was one of the few people I was over 90% sure was town. That made him actually more valuable than any claimed anything.

Well, pending what we find out after the Night, Gray Mage and tLM are now highly suspect.

[usourselves&we]

If an auto-lynch replacement is needed we'd be glad to fill the spot, our eyes will be on this game.

[TheLaughingMan]

Well, pending what we find out after the Night, Gray Mage and tLM are now highly suspect.

He asked! I didn't even half-way consider voting for him until he asked. He was one of the few people in the game who didn't take the game to be srs bizzness, and by the time I came back to see the results you guys start up a last ditch plan. I didn't even know there was a last-ditch plan to subscribe to!

Goodness. A glowing stickhead thing goes away to try and finish a research project and gets accused of murder for it. I'd like to see you juggle a crazy werewolf game with an eleven page essay on the Berlin Wall.

Grr, sorry for getting so defensive, but it's annoying that after a day of trying to get the town organized I might be lynched for it.

The wolves must be getting a kick out of us doing their job for them. :smallsigh:

[Elemental]

I go to bed, and when I come back I find myself suspected for not voting randomly?
I suppose it's to be expected.

Anyway... Hopefully we'll have information to act on tomorrow.

[MethosH]

Well... This is a quiet night... People do roleplay the night. :smalltongue:

[TheLaughingMan]

Well... This is a quiet night... People do roleplay the night. :smalltongue:

We could, but given that it'd just be "ZZZ" over a period of twentysomething posts it's probably for the best that we don't.

[52.5 Lemons]

When is night over? Is it when Bish recieves a kill from the wolves or is there a set time because I feel like night should be over by now. Maybe I'm just anxious to start the day and see some scry results.

[Elemental]

He did say forty-eight hour cycles.

[BishFish]

After the events of the previous day, the sheriff went home for the night. He walked in the door, hung up his coat, and settled into bed. he kept his gun under his pillow. just as he was about to fall asleep, the phone rang. It was Bladescape.
"Sheriff, come here now!" he whispered.
"what is it?" The sheriff was awake now. trying to find his shoes and coat, he stumbled out the door.
"They're here. At my house. They're banging on my door." The sheriff could here the panic in his voice.
"I'm gonna be there in a few minutes."
But it was too late. He heard the door collapse, a shot gun fire, a snarl, and then nothing.

Bladescape died. he was a villager.

forty-eight hours until the end of day two.

[Elemental]

If only Miss Marple were visiting a relative.
Oh well...

Okay people who claim to be seers... Anything interesting to tell us?
In the meantime, I shall point at the giant orb of fire in the sky.

[RuneboundShade]

If only Miss Marple were visiting a relative.
Oh well...

Okay people who claim to be seers... Anything interesting to tell us?
In the meantime, I shall point at the giant orb of fire in the sky.

Indeed, I'd like to hear what our seers have to say.

[JollyChris]

So we're 2 villagers down? Better than powers roles i guess. Does anyone want to contest Grue Baits Mason claim?

[Penguinator]

Does anyone want to contest Grue Baits Mason claim?

To be fair, he didn't claim mason, we just assumed.

And why didn't any of the "seers" get killed last night? I smell wolves.

[TheLaughingMan]

Although I'm admittedly suspicious of both parties, I'm very interested in what the All-Seeing Sapo and his Trusty Breath Freshener have seen, if anything.


And why didn't any of the "seers" get killed last night? I smell wolves.

This, of course, as well. You'd think they would try and target one of the two seer claims or the tentative mason accusation at the very least instead of killing some random guy.

[Saposhiente]

The only explanation for the lack of seer kills I can find is that the wolves were afraid that they might hit a baned target, producing a confirmed villager powerrole and otherwise being disastrous. This makes me more suspicious of The Grimmace, for if he is a wolf, the chance of the wolves killing a baned target would be 50%, and not 1/3 (Because the real baner would know not to bane Grimmace).
I got Gray Mage as Wolf, but I might be the Fool, and want to hear MethosH's result first before pointing. Also, if a seer/fool who isn't MethosH scried me, I'd like to hear from him.
Also, Grue Bait hasn't claimed Mason, he's been accused of being a Mason. I'm not going to network around him or do anything until he publicly claims to be a Mason.

[Penguinator]

My line of thinking:

Let's assume Grimmace really is the baner. I don't know if he is or he isn't, but we'll pretend that he is.

Grimmace is a smart player, I've been in enough games with him to know that. He's also fairly devious, see Center if you want proof. Expend all the town's resurrections then switch sides? Devious. So, this could all very well be a wolf plot, and a poor one at that, but that's beside the point.

Being a smart player, Grimmace would assume that at least one of the "seers" is lying, since we had, you know, I don't know how many claims. So, being a smart Baner, he would... protect himself! A baner's much more important than people who are probably not really seers, right?

The wolves, being smart enough to figure that out, (or paranoid enough to just pick someone totally random, bladescape, since he's also a smart player) would go after one of the seer claimants. Or, maybe, they would hope Grimmace was a stupid player and bane, oh, let's say Sapo. So, the wolves have the option of killing a) Grimmace, believing him to be a stupid baner, which he is not, or b) killing Sapo/Methos, since the Grimmace is smart enough to bane himself. Better yet, who would protect Methos? He's a new player who claimed seer seemingly as a joke. Let's just kill him! Or, even then, there's Grue Bait, who seemed to claim Mason! Let's kill him, since there are "seers" out there for the baner to protect. With all that confusion, why would the baner protect the "mason?" Let's kill Grue Bait!

[Saposhiente]

The best strategy for Grimmace (If he isn't going to try to WIFOM the wolves, which is hard if you don't even know who they are) is to determine his bane target partially at random, maybe weighted in favor of himself. With this, Wolves wouldn't have a single best target.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Morning!

So the wolves got bladescape? Very strange target choice. Why bladescape? What made him a target?

He didn't post much, voting for Grue Bait and then switching to The Grimmace. I'm actually more inclined to believe The Grimmace as a Baner because I don't think it likely for the wolves to kill someone voting for them. If the wolves were being really emotional I could see Grue Bait as a wolf, which also makes sense because he would have been a prime wolf target in my book too.

I can only assume the Grimmace and Sapo/Methos weren't targeted because of the potential bane. The wolves seem to want to widdle us down as quickly as they can and don't want to waste any kills. They could have gathered a list of the remaining players unlikely to be baned and attacked one at random, thus killed bladescape.

Another thing to think of is the Devil. If the wolves try to kill the Devil is s/he led into their midst? I certainly hope ont because that complicates everthing. They may have also made targets who acted suspiciously a higher priority to find the Devil.

Methos, your scry?

[Ramsus]

Well, as so far nobody has countered Grue Bait's claim/not-a-claim as Mason I'll believe he is? Sapo has a scry and there's only one good way to test it. Gray Mage it is.

Btw, Narrator Man, could you use big bold letters to announce phases? Also a player list? Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[Grue Bait]

Why didn't our "seers" get killed, you ask? Well, Sapo's suspicious enough to get lynched, and when I approached MethosH, he demanded another mason name. I suspect he's a wolf, perhaps even the devil. Meaning there's likely another seer out there, but he's being smart and not claiming.

[MethosH]

Also: Saposhiente

[Ramsus]

That is suspicious but, I'd rather follow Sapo's scry for now to see where that leads.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

So Sapo scried Grey Mage as a wolf and Methos scried Ramsus as a villager. Because one of them is the fool we've either found two wolves or two villagers. Two villagers is more likely, making Sapo the fool.
My Personal Player List
{table]#|Player|Role
1|The_Grimmace|Baner
2|Elemental|
3|TheLaughingMan|
4|Vesth|
5|Ramsus|Villager
6|usourselves&we|Villager
7|Grue Bait|Mason
8|JollyChris|
9|Gray Mage|Villager
10|Gnomish Wanderer|Villager
11|Penguinator|
12|cd4|
13|52.5 Lemons|
14|bladescape|Villager
15|Ceresian Memento|
16|MethosH|Seer
17|Loreni333|
18|Saposhiente|Fool
19|RuneboundShade|[/table]Which leaves 5/10 suspects to hunt from, we have a 50/50 chances of killing a wolf

TheLaughingMan would have been my target as a wolf besides Grue, and they both survived. Why is that?

[Ramsus]

Or Sapo could be a wolf offering us a wolf (or MethosH could still be the Fool, there's no guarantee of always inaccurate fool scries or he could be a wolf who made a guess at the most common role). Gray Mage isn't talking much so he's no real loss for town so, I think the smart move for us is lynching him.

[MethosH]

Quick question... The seer and the fool always get villager, wolf or fool, right? They don't get "devil" or "mason", right? :smallconfused:

[Ramsus]

I would think they get mason. Not sure about devil.

[BishFish]

Btw, Narrator Man, could you use big bold letters to announce phases? Also a player list? Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

The player list at the beginning is updated. I will bold the days from now on.

Sapo and gnome: the names in your posts are orange. I will not accept these as votes just to be safe.

EDIT: Scries will get precise roles.

[Gray Mage]

Well, I assume Sapo is the fool (or a wolf pretending to pass as the fool), since he's wrong.

Also, both seers checked other players instead of making sure the other one was not lying? :smallconfused:

@Ramsus: If you'd like for me to talk more, feel free to ask me questions and I'll answer them. Also, lynching me won't be that much good, since Sapo could still be a wolf trying to fake being a fool. Or methos could be a wolf and someone else be the real seer. While this is uncertain any fool/seer test won't mean much.
Also, what did you think of the NK?

By the way, could we have Loreni and Jolly post more, please?

[Ramsus]

@Gray Mage: Ok, who do you think might be a wolf then and besides "I'm not a wolf" why should we not test out Sapo's scry with no other good targets?

I think the NK...was random. Wolves didn't know who would be baned so they just hit Bladescape who had been oddly quiet, probably hoping to hit someone important.

[Saposhiente]

(Bish: Orange is typically used to indicate suspicion without voting)

Also: Saposhiente

Also? In addition to what? Why aren't you saying anything about scry results? Why are you pressuring Grue Bait for additional Masons instead of forwarding scry results to the counterclaimless Mason (because Wolf lives are far more important then Mason lives; any sane Mason will counterclaim a Mason-claiming wolf)?
MethosH. I think that he was advised by a wolf teammate to claim Seer and play it off as being new.

[Zjoot]

Yeah, FoS is for MethosH right now...Although someone said he scried Ramsus as a villager...and then deleted his post? That just seems even more suspicious...

[Gray Mage]

@Gray Mage: Ok, who do you think might be a wolf then and besides "I'm not a wolf" why should we not test out Sapo's scry with no other good targets?


On the test, simply because I feel it'd not give much meaningfull information. It'd be certain that Sapo is not the seer, but any/both (in the case one is a devil, although I find it very unlikely) of the two claimants could be wolves and Methos could still be a fool. IMO, not much progress, plus it could be dangerous, in the case people then forget that Sapo would not be in the clear yet or deciding to go ahead and possibly test by lynching a possible fool, without another way of trying to check both.

Also, IMO, any plan that involves me dying is a bad plan, by definition. :smalltongue:

On wolf possibilities, I was still thinking about you being one, since I found that you being ok with lynching one of the claimants (you commented on that a little before the day ended) to be suspicious, but with the scry results, I'm not in a rush to test this out.

I find Gnomish's table to be suspicious. I mean, so readily putting Sapo/Methos/Grimm's role as if it's certain (especially Sapo's and Methos' since even if they're both good I still find it odd someone that wasn't scried counting on who's the fool and who's the seer). It feels like putting some of the doubts of last day behind us while they're still not resolved, plus it could be pushing for people to accept that Sapo really is the fool, ignoring that he could still be a wolf, something that another wolf would like. Also, while I have my suspicions on TLM, I didn't get her reason for pointing at him.

Other then that, not that much yet. I have some particular posts pegged as a bit wolfy, but nothing stands out too much right now.

PS: Did Methos edit out saying Ramsus is good? Because I don't see mention of that in his post, but I don't get much why he'd do that. :smallconfused:

[Ramsus]

Er, I told him to edit that information out because I was hoping the wolves wouldn't end up noticing it and the masons could include me in a network and the wolves might not find out if he's the Seer or not.

Sapo, you really do just point at everyone who points at you don't you?

Let's look at it this way. If MethosH is a wolf or Fool then Gray Mage is a wolf because Sapo is likely the Seer.

If Sapo is a Fool or a wolf, well we don't have any better leads than Gray Mage right now and that'd make MethosH the Seer so we still shouldn't lynch him.

If Sapo and MethosH were both wolves they wouldn't point at each other as people are at all likely to follow suit.

Sapo, if you'd seen what he said he'd asked Grue Bait about other masons before he sent his scry. And he did tell Grue Bait about his scry.

Edit: Note that I have specifically not been included in the network because there hasn't been a real Seer test yet. Thus I am inclined to push for one so I can be included in the network. (And also I see no other logical choice atm.)

[Gnomish Wanderer]

My list is Occam's Razor at work. We know there are two seers, two people have claimed seer. Right now it's more important for us to catch the wolves than to hide our power roles. So anyone who was also told they're the Baner or the Seer should claim now so we can catch liars.

Right now there's no reason to have doubts about the claims. And I already said I could be wrong about which one of them is the Fool, which means we could have just caught two Wolves.

The Seers should search Grue Bait tonight. We can prove he's a mason with another mason and thus prove who's the Fool and who isn't. Once we know that we can just kill off the remaining list of players by suspicious first and guarantee a win.

[Penguinator]

Grue Bait tonight. We can prove he's a mason with another mason and thus prove who's the Fool and who isn't. Once we know that we can just kill off the remaining list of players by suspicious first and guarantee a win.

This, of course, assumes that Grue Bait really is a mason. I note that he's never actually said that he's a mason.

Care to tell us why, Grue Bait? (And if he's not, well, Masons, you know what to do)

[Ramsus]

*eyes Penguinator with suspicion* I think we all know what it means that no masons have countered that "not-a-claim". Interesting that you would try to throw doubt on him though. Hmmm.
Edit: In case anyone doesn't know, it means he's a mason or the masons are ok with it.

Also interesting to note, Gray Mage ignored my question and in fact isn't pointing at anyone. Which of course you wouldn't if you were a wolf yes? Couldn't point at Sapo because that won't help. Can't point at MethosH because that'd just draw his vote (and others as it wouldn't make any sense). Can't point at Grue. Can't point at me (because at this particular moment nobody would follow it). And there are two more masons that if you fingered wouldn't help your case much either. So, being a cautious wolf you would wait for any bandwagon other than yours to form and gain steam and jump on it.

[Gray Mage]

Er, I told him to edit that information out because I was hoping the wolves wouldn't end up noticing it and the masons could include me in a network and the wolves might not find out if he's the Seer or not.


In that case you should have included Gnomish in that PM, since she still has that information in her post.




Let's look at it this way. If MethosH is a wolf or Fool then Gray Mage is a wolf because Sapo is likely the Seer.


Wrong. If Methos is a wolf, there's 50% chance of Sapo being the seer or not. If Methos is the fool, looking purely on a probability basis, Sapo would be more likely to be a wolf, not the seer. If you're saying that you feel he's good based on his posts or something like this, it'd still depend on Methos not being evil, which again, is unsure. Anyway, no, he's not more likely to be the seer.



If Sapo is a Fool or a wolf, well we don't have any better leads than Gray Mage right now and that'd make MethosH the Seer so we still shouldn't lynch him.


I find it odd that you can't think of other leads, but what really strikes me as suspicious is the affirmation that Methos would be the seer after Sapo is proven to not be the seer (I do agree that it'd be best to avoid lynching the possible seer/fool for now, otherwise we should have done that back at day 1). That is simply not true (see above for more or less the same reason) and is in fact, what I just said that town shouldn't count on. I must say, Ramsus, that trying to pass this past post as truth is a major red flag for me.


My list is Occam's Razor at work. We know there are two seers, two people have claimed seer. Right now it's more important for us to catch the wolves than to hide our power roles. So anyone who was also told they're the Baner or the Seer should claim now so we can catch liars.

Right now there's no reason to have doubts about the claims. And I already said I could be wrong about which one of them is the Fool, which means we could have just caught two Wolves.

The Seers should search Grue Bait tonight. We can prove he's a mason with another mason and thus prove who's the Fool and who isn't. Once we know that we can just kill off the remaining list of players by suspicious first and guarantee a win.

Isn't the point of Occam's Razor to not make assumptions? I'd say considering them all to be saying the truth to be one, but I digress. Anyway, I just think that trusting them so easily to be dangerous.

By the way, usually the fool has a random scry, not an incorrect one, if Methos is the fool it doesn't mean that Ramsus is necessarily a wolf.

Edit:

Also interesting to note, Gray Mage ignored my question and in fact isn't pointing at anyone. Which of course you wouldn't if you were a wolf yes? Couldn't point at Sapo because that won't help. Can't point at MethosH because that'd just draw his vote (and others as it wouldn't make any sense). Can't point at Grue. Can't point at me (because at this particular moment nobody would follow it). And there are two more masons that if you fingered wouldn't help your case much either. So, being a cautious wolf you would wait for any bandwagon other than yours to form and gain steam and jump on it.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it seem that I was ignoring you, I just took a while to answer. Also, I don't get why I couldn't point at you, I'm not particulary trying to make a bandwagon, I simply point at those that I think are wolves. By the way, one point does not in fact a bandwagon make. Plus, I could have voted for TLM if I wanted a bandwagon, Gnomish is pointing at him.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I don't believe I'm making an assumption. I'm just not assuming them to be liars because we have no proof they're lying. I would very much like other claims right now to give suspicion that they're lying, but we don't have it.

Just realized I forgot one more thing. In regards to my vote on TheLaughingMan, he would be my prime target if I was the wolf because people were trusting him and he was making a strong case, and also he was doubtful to have been protected by the baner. However my criteria as a wolf is different from other people's, I think, and I don't want to go in further detail publicly to give the wolves ideas.

In regards to trying to take away information so the wolves won't see, I don't really see how it affects us to have them know one way or another. you're right, though, even in deleted information Grue never really claimed mason, which does make it an assumption on my part. Eh, I'm posting its as I sees its.

[Penguinator]

Ramsus, for now.

Actually, no. I'm starting to think that you might be a mason. Which would, in part, explain why Grue Bait would ask a "seer" to scry you. That would show him (and the other masons) that the "seer" was really the fool.

[TheLaughingMan]

IJust realized I forgot one more thing. In regards to my vote on TheLaughingMan, he would be my prime target if I was the wolf because people were trusting him and he was making a strong case, and also he was doubtful to have been protected by the baner. However my criteria as a wolf is different from other people's, I think, and I don't want to go in further detail publicly to give the wolves ideas.


I'm actually a bit confused by this as well. I figured, if Sapo and Mentos are both untargeted (either out of baner-spawned paranoia or because the wolves wouldn't kill one of their own), I'm probably the next in line to die given that I was the most talkative neutral member. Or maybe Grimmace, given the Baner claim. And even if I, Ramsus, Sapo, Mentos, and Grimmace were all wolves, that'd still leave you and Grue Bait as sane townies and as such reasonable, susceptible targets. I can only conclude from their night action that the wolves are either really paranoid and took the easy way out, or else thought Bladescape to be a power-role for whatever reason. I'm throwing my hands up here, because honestly it really makes no sense to me, even from a wolf standpoint. That's just foolish strategy.

On the topic of our two seers, we have some interesting developments. Sapo has, instead of scrying Mentos or The Grimmace (or even Ramsus or me), decided to scry a third party for reasons completely unknown. Mentos' targeting makes a bit more sense, even if the results are erased now. EDIT: Mentos' pushing for Mason names is either incompetent or else sign of wolfhood. Even if Sapo's point just seems spiteful, he has a point (har har) in voting for him. Mentos's clumsy backpedaling in terms of his scry results points to the former regardless of his true identity, though.

The Grimmace's willingness to follow Sapo's every point (even if he insists that they're not on a team) seems to point to them being allies in some fashion. Why should The Grimmace point at one of the two seer claims if he has no idea which one is wrong, if either? Sapo's token suspicious point at The Grimmace might just be a result of him trying to throw off the scent. (See EDIT block for reasoning behind retracting this point). Ultimately, though, I remain unsure, as I could just be paranoid. In any case, we must pay close attention to the three of them from here on out.

I'll point once I get any firm handle of the situation.

EDIT: More stuffs!

Mentos was trying to push for mason names? This just complicates things even further, something I thought impossible. And I'll give it to Sapo, his waiting for Mentos's results earned him some brownie points. However, even if they're both good guys, they have a lot of explaining to do before we can make sense of anything.


I don't believe I'm making an assumption. I'm just not assuming them to be liars because we have no proof they're lying.

It certainly seems though, given their actions, that they're not exactly telling us the whole truth either. Why should Mentos want Mason names? Why did Sapo scry Gray Mage instead of any other target? Until things like these are answered reasonably, we can't make much of an informed decision.

All of you need to stop being suspicious right this instant so I can go to bed! :smalltongue:

[Elemental]

So... In other words... We have no plan?

If the people claiming seer want to, they can scry me and I'll verify whether or not they're telling the truth.
Wait... That's much too suspicious on my part. Never mind.

Back to having no plan.

[TheLaughingMan]

So... In other words... We have no plan

We can get our two would-be seers to scry each other tonight, you know, like they should have been doing. :smalltongue: We use the results of that to plan out tomorrow's lynching.

Today, though? No idea.

[Ramsus]

Gee as for plans, we could do the obvious thing and lynch the guy a seer claimant scried as a wolf, who also acts like a wolf, and see what we learn from there like I already said a couple times now we should be doing. Or we could flop around and let the wolves push a lynch on someone important. One of those.

[Elemental]

I suppose we could lynch Gray Mage to test Saposhiente's claim.
And if we have been tricked, our vengeance will be swift and lethal.

[TheLaughingMan]

Gee as for plans, we could do the obvious thing and lynch the guy a seer claimant scried as a wolf, who also acts like a wolf, and see what we learn from there like I already said a couple times now we should be doing. Or we could flop around and let the wolves push a lynch on someone important. One of those.

You must keep in mind, however, that by choosing option one we may be choosing option two without realizing it. Hence, my reluctance to point at anyone today. If you guys want to lynch Gray Mage, then go for it, but I can't say I'm all that sure.

[Ramsus]

If option one is option two then at least we've learned something important.

[Grue Bait]

Grey Mage, then.